Like

Archive through November 12, 2004

 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 495
Registered: Apr-04
LarryR,

Sem: I see one problem here - youze guyz are running computers and drives that are light-years larger and faster than mine are.

Good point. Defrag on older versions of Windows is probably beneficial.

BTW, I'm in Canada (business-related not election depression) and am a little miserable. It's cold and I had to have a roommate on this trip (business-related for Evil Empire - SP2 hahahahahaha....) She's loud, bossy and extremely a-nal retentive. Driving me nuts! Fortunately, I arrived at the corporate apartment first so I managed to snag the master bedroom with the private bath and TV - so, I head for that everyday after work to get away from her. Not only do we have to share the apartment but the rental car too (EE cannot afford 2 rental cars, evidently) so the bedroom is the only escape. Of course, the cable modem is in the other room so, in my efforts to get a little sanity, my internet surfing time is limited. The worst thing is her wanting to do everything her way is interfering with my wanting to do everything my way - but, she's more aggressive so she's winning. Got to figure a way to get out of the trip to Niagra Falls with her - promised to join her - but before I had actually met her. Is this rambling? It's part of the insanity....

Jan, I keep forgetting to deposit your check. Will do so when I return to the Divided States around Nov 20th....
Back to OD now.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 496
Registered: Apr-04
LarryR,

Sorry, we crossed posts. It's been a long time since I've worked with Win98 or Norton Systemworks (my job requires knowing the server-based email software) so I'm not sure what to recommend. I would defer to Kegger and Sem for this.

Of course, you may want to go look at pics of Kegger's basement before making a final decision. It would seem he doesn't defrag there either. :-) Just teasing, Kegger!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 497
Registered: Apr-04
Since I'm on a roll and so close to 500 posts, I'll keep posting. Y'all can ignore if you wish.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 498
Registered: Apr-04
MR,

The Rattle/Mahler disk is outstanding! I've only listened to the stereo mix but it is an incredible performance and a fantastic recording. Watching the video really enhances the performance - especially for a classical neophyte such as I.

There's a gentlemen who stands on a street corner all day, practically everyday, near my neighborhood. My dad once asked if he was a "drama student" at the nearby university. I said, "no, he's just insane." Now, after seeing Rattle, I realize he may just be conducting his own invisible orchestra. Maybe he'll get a DVD one day, too.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 499
Registered: Apr-04
How long has it been since I mentioned Aimee Mann? She has a new DVD. I bought it but haven't had time to listen or watch. In addition to the DVD (5.1 surround - DTS?), it includes a redbook CD.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 500
Registered: Apr-04
Well, it looks like I'll have to make my 500th post alone. LR hasn't been around since 10:15p and don't see anyone else around either. 500! Yay! Guess I'll go shower and go to bed.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 88
Registered: Oct-04
Ghia, et al - if you want a slightly more balanced picture of Sir Simon, watch the interview with him that's also on Disc #1 - if you don't go to sleep, that is!
Yes, he certainly DOES get caught up in the music - but stop to consider what must be going on in the head of a chap who has the entire Mahler 5th symphony scrolling past his eyes as he conducts! No score - just his memory. I've always been amazed at conductors who do things like that. Especially when you consider all the nuances that a conductor drills into the orchestra during rehearsal - then has to remember to bring out in the performance! ". . .on page 3, bar 27, the oboe must come in pianissimo, then build to mezzo-forte." Huh? I can hardly remember such things for five minutes, let alone through a whole symphony!
But I rant, also. Having spent years with various orchestras and conductors, I realize that they live in a world apart when "doing their thing," and that is quite, quite evident in watching Sir Simon conduct!
And yes, Ghia, the disc is noteworthy - pun probably intended there!

More anon. . .
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 89
Registered: Oct-04
Ghia - congrats! I was away, brushing my teeth, and probably should have been here to give you a grand "Huzzah!" (grin) I'll try to do better when you reach a thousand!

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1035
Registered: Aug-04
Ghia,

Congrats on the 500th! Good to see you are alive and kicking (maybe your room-mate in the backside). Yes, I very much enjoyed the Rattle/Mahler recording but will evalute more this weekend hopefully.

I'm having all sorts of problems with my broadband connection - the assumed culprit is what your are unleashing on those poor Canadians, but I'll say no more until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Don't be too sore about the election. Listened to an interview with Bob Geldof last evening and while he doesn't go along with the Bush campaign he did stress the good old G B is one of the few leaders in the world today that is not only receptive to but also campaigning to gather assistance to aid the starving and disenfranchised in Africa. There's good in us all!

Have fun with the new girlfriend - cheers :-)

 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 318
Registered: Mar-04
Jan,
Yes, I guess I should try it on another player. That will give me an excuse to go over to Audio Classics, oh darn. :-)

Ghia,
I know exactly what you're going through. When I had to go out of town for a class, my company often times would put us up in 2 bedroom apartments - 4 to an apartment. Do the math, two to a bedroom (two double beds in each bedroom). We had to share one car. It was the pits. I always seemed to get stuck with some guy that snored like a poorly oiled chainsaw. I remember b1tch1ng to our instructor one morning during class, and his reply..."If you don't want to hear your roomate snoring, kiss him goodnight. :-)

Ghia said:

quote:

There's a gentlemen who stands on a street corner all day, practically everyday, near my neighborhood. My dad once asked if he was a "drama student" at the nearby university. I said, "no, he's just insane.



Reminds me of a George Carlin bit:
"People who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music."




Larry,
I would say keep doing what you've been doing, as long as you've seen a benefit from it.


 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1036
Registered: Aug-04
Larry

Start saving - here's the DVD player you really want:

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=7119

Get a hanky for the drool :-)

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2417
Registered: Dec-03
MR,

Thanks. I do not deny Dylan's influence; on the contrary. I always think his early songs are understated, and the more powerful for it.

I had a discussion with Ghia and Sem many archived threads ago, comparing Vaughan Williams and Mahler. Let me recommend, again, Naxos Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony DVD-A. Fantastic sound, huge orchestra, massive choir, gorgeous soloists, moving words. Also cheap. No video clips, though. First performed 1910. All his symphonies (there are nine) are great. The Sea Symphony is the first. Good for residents of the Gold Coast. The seas do not get that rough, there, I suspect. People, in contrast, seem to be much the same everywhere.

Ghia,

Congrats on the semi-gold. We have discussed computer platforms and such before. I have never had to defrag anything, or even re-build the desktop, after switching to OS X a few years ago. It just works. Every time. This is how it should be. Careful with the scene setting. Old Dogs have Vivid imaginations.

Larry,

Consider DVD-A, too before it is too late. Think what joys are on the other disc in the Mahler 5 box. I do. My NAD dealer still has my copy, checking it out. Must give him a call. Does it really play on a CD player?

My big S recommendation is give 'em a miss because they are out for world domination and total market control, no, sorry, ...is get the Rubio Quartet String Quartets set on Brilliant Classics. I never heard anything new I liked so much, not for years.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2418
Registered: Dec-03
MR,

Thanks for the link. "Battleship audiophile construction". Has the format war finally come to that?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1773
Registered: Dec-03
ooooohhh ghia 2 jabs in a row diceyy, tooshayy!!

"Buy only MacIntosh and McIntosh"

"Of course, you may want to go look at pics of Kegger's basement before making a final decision. It would seem he doesn't defrag there either. :-) Just teasing, Kegger!"

That's allright I porobably deserve it and like they say!
If I can dish it out I better be able to take it!

Good to hear from yu! you can ramble all you want
as far as i'm concerned!
(was watching the only tv show I make time for NYPD BLUE) except football!

Wouldn't mind getting your input on the sp2 thing though!
Any rumblings in the company? or thoughts?

Good to see your ffl team is doing good.
I'm 30 points out of first.
-----------------------------------

LARRY I have to agree with the last few posts.
If your system runs satisfactory for you now, don't
changs a thing! (might make it worse)

--------------------------------------------
sem: I don't have my dsotm disk right now a friend
has it. As soon as I get a chance I will test it.
Strange what you have going there.
supossably there is a firmware update that can be
done to the 563a that only takes a file on a cd
maybe a good dealer may be able to hook you up
with that instead of sending to pioneer. "might help"

what excactly does it do at that point and at what "time" on the
track does it mess up?
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1037
Registered: Aug-04
John A

Sorry, a misunderstanding: didn't mean you denied Dylan's influence - I meant Dylan denied Dylan's influence. No more I really, really, really mean it this time.

Sea Symphony for Gold Coasters - Cor blimey! You'll try anything!

Yes - a great DVD player or battleship (My bet is that is sinks) - oh to be rich!

Had the techie with me all morning (costing, costing, costing) and it now seems the fault is in the line. The telco tech is coming tomorrow. I am now getting adsl connections but the speeds are all over the place and still getting random drop outs. Hopefully it will soon all be sorted - or someone will be!

Sem,

DSOTM plays with no problems on the DVD-2900 - but then they all do - ah well! (blows on fingers and rubs them on swelling chest) :-)

Knock on wood . . .

Kegger,

You mean you lend out your hi-res discs to friends. Man are you game :-)



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Ghia - You might drop a hint to your temporary roommate that you are now in possession of a silver member but she is not invited in to see it. I doubt any of us would care for her anyway. You can tell her that if you like.



 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2420
Registered: Dec-03
Sea Symphony for Gold Coasters - Cor blimey! You'll try anything!

Not quite anything, MR. Really recommended, though. Not everyone gets the Walt Whitman words. You will. Have volume right up. Listen wearing life jacket. That sort of thing.

Oh, yes, Symphony No. 7 "Symphonia Antartica" is also good (but they all are). No. 7 was the Symphony he made out of his score for "Scott of the Antarctic". People say Vaughan Williams sounds like film music. I don't have a problem with that, personally; recall "Master and Commander". Not sure No. 7 is in any hi-res format, yet. But there are several versions of The Sea Symphony.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2421
Registered: Dec-03
J. Vigne,

Careful. This thread has crossed the border, before. My Rantz always notices. The filter never does. It looks for prohibited words, not prohibited thoughts. Perhaps we should therefore continue to test the limits, from time to time. How the surveillance allowed through Sem's title and the Follies Bergeres, for example, I have no idea. Who would not swap places with Ghia's roomate? Re Silver bullets etc.

The Lone Ranger and Tonto were ridin' down the line,
Fixin' everybody's troubles - everybody's, that is, except mine;
Someone must have told 'em I was doing fine.


Now, there's the 1960s Zeitgeist, as 2c might have said.
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1038
Registered: Aug-04
"Perhaps we should therefore continue to test the limits, from time to time."

Bronze, Silver, Gold - it's not the veneer that counts.

As I have previously mentioned: these members do not stand up to scrutiny. But then at our age, they rarely do. Be scrutinised that is. What I liked when I first registered on this forum was the Bronze member title. I thought, 'Wow - and I didn't even try.'


The Lone Ranger and Tonto rode into town. They tied up their steeds and Tonto immediatley went to the rear of his pinto, lifted his tail, and smacked his lips bang onto the horses . . .

The Ranger was horrified and said, "Good grief Tonto, why in the blazes did you do that for?"

Tonto grinned and replied,"For my chapped lips Kemosabe."

The Ranger, perplexed, said, "How does that help chapped lips fer Pete's sake?"

"Stops me from lick'ng em," laughed Tonto.


John,

Let me get a good handle on Mahler and we shall see where we venture. Will keep Sea Symphony on the list - sound good.






 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 319
Registered: Mar-04
Kegger,
I've already had the firmware upgrade for the 563A, I fixed a DVD-A problem. Is there another that fixes SACD tracking problems? I doubt it since the rest of the disc plays fine. It skips right around the 1:40 mark, "...I'm alright Jack..Ja..Jack...keep...my......ck....Money....Money...Money...Share it fairly....(the rest is fine - about 10 seconds in all).

MR,
I haven't heard/read anywhere that DSOTM has problems other than at my house. Wish I did have a 2900, but wouldn't be able to afford any discs if I did.

John A.
Sea Symphony sounds intriguing as does the Mahler/Rattle disc. May have to explore further.

All,
Leaving now for a few days, hope to have a lot of reading to catch up on here when I return. Maybe pour myself a scotch, no, maybe a Nostradamus and get back up to speed.
Be well....
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2422
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

Let me get a good handle on Mahler and we shall see where we venture.

Good stuff. But, then do not, under any circumstances, listen to Asyla, on the same disc. The percussion seem to be preoccupied doing simple experiments in physics. I doubt the insurance covers treating a piano like that. As for the tin cans...

On the DVD-V, you can see the composer, Ades, being dragged unwillingly out of the audience by a manic Rattle, for applause. I think it was not modesty that caused his reluctance, but he had been trying to hide under the seat, pretending not to be there.

Thank you for a further Kebo Sabe joke to add to the collection. Sorry, cannot summon one up right now. Will be back.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 91
Registered: Oct-04
Wheeessh! Here I go to bed and the forum explodes all around me!
Trying catch-up here.

Sem: Great Carlin quote: have copied it down, I like it so much! Works for me, sir!

John A. - The Mahler DVD-A - disc #2 in the Mahler 5th pack - played fine on my CD player. Well, as fine as my player will, uh, "play," anyway. Still betting on SACD all the way, sir.

More anon. . .
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 92
Registered: Oct-04
Since the tea isn't boiling yet. . .

My Rantz - empathy and sympathy for you, my friend. I've been down that "bad line" road, and it is not a pretty sight! In your case I hope it is "when," not "if" they find the problem!

On the "dream machine" player. Uh-huh - I'm sure Mer will be glad to give up wine and meat for a year or so, just so we can have, "that" thing in our house.
Luv the "organic anti-vibration coatings." Does that mean you have to feed it? Hmm. . .
Think I'll stick with the Sony - if it EVER gets here!!!!

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2423
Registered: Dec-03
Sem,

Is there any visible damage on the disc? We have had one ot two rented DVD-Vs that did something like that. I was wondering whether it was the layer transition. But they would not put that in the middle fo a song. My recommendation to MR of RVW goes to you. Warmly. I feel he must have enjoyed the occasional drop of scotch, himself.

Larry,

The Mahler DVD-A - disc #2 in the Mahler 5th pack - played fine on my CD player

It is not supposed to do that. Well done for trying! I will try it, myself, when I get my disc back. It must be playing the LPCM stereo track, and down-sampling. The DVD-CD "hybrid" is already with us!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 93
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - if in doubt, read the label - so I just did. Says disc #2 has two audio versions - one playable in any DVD player - the other only in a DVD-A player. End of mystery there.
Frankly, I thought the other disc sounded better,so I stuck with that - especially on DTS surround - fantastic!

More when I finish my eggs. . .
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 94
Registered: Oct-04
Eggs done. . .

Kegger - a liddle help, please? I have installed this new PC-cillin antivirus - working very well, but there IS one problem.
When installing, I should have been able to put in a "user ID" for part of the program called "customer care," where I can change passwords, upgrade, change profile, etc.
But somehow I didn't get that - and now can't get into CC - have e-mailed the company, but get no replies. Have called the company, but so far the "engineers" don't seem to understand.
Should I just uninstall the danged thing, then reinstall and look very carefully to see if I missed a "step" first time around? Or should I just keep dogging them, in hopes that somebody will help me? Sigh.

BTW - do you watch CSI: It's one of Mer's favorite programs - especially the first series, out of Las Vegas. Informative!

Awaiting help. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1774
Registered: Dec-03
larry look for something in the program that says register or upgrade.

Also when the program is running usually up in the right
corner is a help pull down or click button. In there you may
see an upgrade or register button to click and put in your code.

you could try the program folder on the menu of your pc
to see if there is a register icon.

Other than that the company will need to show you!
I dought if reinstalling it will show up because
it should be there until you do it.

But hey maybe, yu never know.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 95
Registered: Oct-04
Kegger - thanks - as always. I tried and tried, but always got the error message that I had not purchased the product! Arrggghhhhh!!!
FINALLY - just got off the phone with a woman who actually knew what she was talking about - a rarity these days.
Anyway - after on-holding and such, she allowed as how this program does not work with every serial number - and mine happens to be one of the "broken" ones. Sigh. What to do? Well she said they're trying to "patch" it.
Isn't this the same story that Microsoft has been handing us for decades now? Yu,yu,yu,yes.

Bottom line: the program itself works very well, with firewall and virus scan - it is only when I try to get into the "guts" of it, to change profile or to check on non-essential things such as time left on my contract, that it locks me out.
Anyway - thanks for the reply - and I guess I'll just wait it out. I came to PC-cillin from Norton 2004 - and like it a lot, though it's not as "user-friendly" as the Norton is.
If I don't feel comfortable with PC-c after a month or so, I may just get back to Norton. Sigh. At least with this product, at $45, I got a $25 rebate, so I'm not out a lot of money.

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2424
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

The Mahler DVD-A - disc #2 in the Mahler 5th pack - played fine on my CD player

Mine has two single-sided discs: one is DVD-A; the other is a DVD-V.

...if in doubt, read the label - so I just did. Says disc #2 has two audio versions - one playable in any DVD player - the other only in a DVD-A player. End of mystery there.

But does it not say "will not play on a CD player"? They usually do.

Still a mystery! I agree the DTS is great. Better than CD.

Being a contented Macintosh user, I cannot help with Wintel PCs, sorry. Kegger is the expert. I put to you that the anti-virus customer care ID is a hook; they want your credit card info. Everyone would be better off with open source software. And DVD-A, before copy protection. There is a conspiracy theory that MS builds in virus susceptibility. I am not sure I go that far. But there are simple things they could have done to keep it low, which they didn't. Office's macros might as well have had "please infect me: I am waiting; I promise to to pass it on". Ditto Outlook Express. This is off topic. But I agree with Ghia's advice. One gets disinclined to change, I agree with that, too. If I were younger, and/or had more time, I would probably go Linux. I realise this does not help your immediate problem!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 96
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - always good to get your postings. Re the CDs - please go to the "box" that the Mahler came in. On the back - there are the two discs listed, in separate boxes. The "DVD-A" disc is described in box #2. Read the fine print, and see if you agree with me - it should be there, but you may have to use a magnifying glass!! (grin)
On the antivirus - they've already got my CCnumber - but I agree with you that most of the stuff out there for Windows is laden with many things of evil intent. Thus, firewalls, anty-spyware, anti-adware, and anti-virus, of course.
Good points, all, John. Thanx

More anon. . .


 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2425
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

Thanks. As I said, my NAD dealer has my Mahler 5 discs, including the box, on loan, pending investigation. Hope they are enjoying them. Neither disc is supposed to play on a CD player. I will try them on my Marantz CD475 when I get them back.

All,

I am becoming quiet undecided about this whole question of hi-res and sound quality. Jan Vigne's original points have really come home to me, of late. I wonder if I am just listening more carefully, from a better listening position, and at higher levels. I do not know what the Mercury Living Presence SACDs sound like, but the stereo CD copies, which a kind friend made, have stunning sound quality. Yes, they are "ripped", but it just makes me want to go out and buy the lot. Wouldn't it be good business sense to encourage copying?

Many CBS recordings I have (and bought) from that time, too, are also unsurpassed.

What happened to those guys...?

Another case in point: EMI CDM 7 64019 2 Stereo CD ADD remaster of original recording of Vaughan Williams Symphony 4. Sir Adrian Boult (the master; another "genius") conducting New Philharmonia Orchestra. Recorded in No. 1 Studio, Abbey Road, London, 22 & 23 Jan & 12 Feb 1968. Sound quality hardly gets better than that. The last movement con epilogo fugato is a huge, fast fuge, the brass section just blazes, and I never knew double basses could run like that. If sound quality gets any better than that, it is doubtful, and marginal compared with the electrifying performance. Same disc has No. 6, recorded in 1967. Dark and moving material; those two stand out from an otherwise fairly sunny symphony cycle (there are nine; he was still doing great stuff in his eighties). I am inclined to get all those Boult EMI remasters. They are mid-price, too.

I looked at my Sgt Pepper and note it was recorded in No. 2 Studio. I do not have a copy of the eponymous Beatles LP; must be from about the same time as the Vaughan Williams. DSOTM (1973) does not state which studio, just "Abbey Road". You can see No. 1 studio on the extra material of the extended LOTR DVDs - wonderful music; Howard Shore; any one challenge that? What a place. If we have ever have an Old Dogs workshop we have to visit Abbey Road, in homage to the living art of sound recording, whatever the genre. Wonder if they do tours.

I shall go away and examine my basic assumptions.

Points to J.V., yet again.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1775
Registered: Dec-03
John: many times you have bashed the sound of cd's

I keep biting my tounge and want to ask, have you heard a really
good cd player with a realy well recorded cd?

I say this because I go to a local hi end store here
in michigan to see a guy who is heavely into tube and analog
but has some excelent cd players and iv'e listened to both. (cd/record)
To me I prefer the cd's "don't like the clicks pops hissing and others"
His high end cd players with very well rercorded cd's sound fantastic.

Now in my personal system cd's sound great!
So I guess what I'm trying to say is cd's "good ones on good players"
sound extremly good, better than I think you give the medium credit.

maybe you've listened to many inferior players
and not so well recorded disks.

Is this maybe what your starting to realize?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 97
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - sorry - the discs will play on any DVD, not CD-only player. I may have mis-written there. As I have a DVD/CD combo player, I always assume everybody else has one, too! (grin)

More - (well, you know)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 98
Registered: Oct-04
Kegger - always missing posts, drives me nutz!
Anyway - I agree with you - many CDs sound very good in "some" players.
Example - my doc-friend's Marantz - when I play what I consider "well-engineered" CDs in that, they are wonderfully clear and clean. BUT when I take over, for example, some of my pre-1987 DG discs. Grrrrrrrr!!! What tinny and harsh sounds they make!
Sigh - the problem is - how to choose ONLY well-engineered CDs - aha! - dat's duh kestchun!

More anon. . .
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 99
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - you wanna REALLY get bummed out on CD sound, come over to my place, and I'll put a disc on the ole JVC. Ole dawgs howl whenever I do that. (now, where IS that d-ed Sony?)

More anon. . .
 

Bronze Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 100
Registered: Oct-04
WAYTAH MINUTE! HOLD PRESSES!
Could it be? Is this really IT? I mean, I just remembered - post #100 is "Silver," isn't it?
well - let's see. . . (holding breath)
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 101
Registered: Oct-04
OH, NO!!! foiled again!
The last try - then tears. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 102
Registered: Oct-04
AHA! - the good wine comes out tonight!

Good to be in such august compamy, and will try to uphold my "Silver" appellation.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1776
Registered: Dec-03
Hi ho silver awayyy!!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2426
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Thanks. I am not sure about my players, but I can certainly tell good and bad recordings. There is a really nice Vaughan Williams Symph. set on Chandos (small; independent; all that) all recorded much later than those old EMI, but I cannot recommend the sound quality. Basically, they go into distortion on peaks. I went back to EMI/Boult just to check I was not hearing clipping on Chandos. No; it is on the discs. I think I remember a review that said that. The EMI recordings are clear as a bell, even at high volumes.

As I said, it could just be that I am listening harder, and more critically, these days. As we have discussed before, it is nigh-on impossible to make an fair A/B comparison of CD with DVD-A, and either of those with SACD, so many other things are different, including multichannel vs, 2-channel, and the mixes. To do that, one would have to make one's own format copies, from a single, good master recording, without re-mixing. WIth the right gear (expensive) it could be done. Except for SACD. Is this correct? It is like software - if they would let you make copies, and fair comparisons, I would have more time for their claims. "We know; trust us; no, you are not allowed to do it yourself" is suspicious, to my mind. If anyone can recommend a straight source to compare formats, I would be pleased to know.

As regards my gear, I am in the mid-fi zone, I suppose (can detail it if is anyone is interested). I can still hear differences that seem to escape most other people. No, I have not heard a "high-end" CD player, with upsampling etc. What I may do, one day, is audition some, and go that route plus SACD for music only, provided I can hear some benefit. But when I stream 16-bit kHz 44.1 kHz through iTunes/ Airport express to the DAC in my NAD T760 receiver, it is, to me, indistinguishable from CD on any of my players, using their DACs or not. And it makes no difference if the computer is reading the CD, or reading the .aiff files from disc. So either am deaf, or a lot of the claims for CD players, tranports, etc., are exaggerated. Or else, the rest of my system is naff, and the limiting factor, and I cannot use it to reveal difference between sources. I don't know. I guess that's where most of us are. How much are we willing to spend to explore remote possibilities of improvements? And then, how sure are we that we are not hearing what we want to hear? As I keep saying, that is not a crime; no-one should take offence; it is how we all work. The main thing is to keep open the possibility of careful comparison, to make sure we are not deceiving ourselves. When that route is closed, I get suspicious. "Take nobody's word for it". That is at the base of my reservations about SACD. It could be a great; I just don't know. I wonder if I ever will. I'll tell you what, though, I've rediscovered LPs. CD offered convenience. Definitely not improved sound quality. In many cases it was a step back. We should now be wary we are not, again, having new formats foisted on us for no reason except to boost sales.

I am inclined to take seriously people who worked with audio professionally, like Jan. Even there, many dealers I have met just do not listen, either, and others just try to BS you or "blind you with science". Or are crazy (we had one of those some months ago, you may remember).

Jan is obviously an exception, and knows a load of things about music, too. These are among the reasons I count his opinion as serious stuff. There is another guy, Frank, on other threads, who is a part-time showroom salesman, I think, and seems to write good sense. But I vote for J. Vigne. And he thinks music sounds best in stereo. Then we get into "anything goes; it's just what you happen to prefer" and, as you know, I disagree with that. That is where I am in a small minority, here, and all you guys are formidable arguers and debaters!

Too long. Must go. There must be a way out of this maze.

This forum is has been an education, in all sorts of unexpected ways. But people can't seem to separate the format from the resolution of the recording, or either of those from the performance, or any of those combinations from whether they like the performer, the composer/songwriter, the whole "Genre", or the colour of the box. I am not saying I can. I just try to keep an open mind, while at the same time trying to hold on to clear distinctions between these completely separate issues. And I fail. I like "Rate your Hi-res discs..." etc but those threads do not help; we just tell each other about what music we like, which is talking about ourselves. Again, we all do it, me included. It is human nature. I jumped on Arnold (a good guy) for assuming (as I understood it) anything recorded 40 years ago was going to be bad, just for that reason. If we all cluster around thinking our own time is specially favoured and progress is inevitable, then there is nothing left to discuss, really.

Just in case anyone new has jumped in, here is where we started:

Archive through May 23, 2004: "As an aside, am I the only one who thinks music almost always sounds better when you listen just in stereo. How old I feel."
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2427
Registered: Dec-03
BTW that was a reply to Kegger "Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 11:53 am."

Sorry, Kegger! You did nothing to deserve that!

Congrats/commiserations, Larry! You would be/have a gold member (status) by now, if you have not gone AWOL.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1778
Registered: Dec-03
John I have no problem for your response of my question.

but this:

"I'll tell you what, though, I've rediscovered
LPs. CD offered convenience. Definitely not improved sound quality. In
many cases it was a step back. We should now be wary we are not,
again, having new formats foisted on us for no reason except to boost
sales."

How do you know this if you haven't listened to a
really good player with a really good disk?

I'm not saying you are wrong but how can you state that,
If your answer to the above is no or not sure?

My point being I have recently heard some Incredable
cd players with excelent recordings and have been blown away!

What I'm getting at is I don't think the media is as flawed "as one might think"
but we haven't seen/heard it to it's potential because of our
players and the disks we have used!

I believe we get close to this by having a dvd-a player or sacd
with a well recorded disk. Meaning that a really good cd player
with a good disk verse an avaerage sacd/dvd-a player with a good disk
are about equal.

but a crappy cd player with a crappy cd will be blown away by an
average sacd/dvd-a player!
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 103
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - yeah, lost gold - the story of my life! GRIN
Interesting to note that Jan and I are wrestling with DVD/CD players - and having more questions than answers in many cases. Sigh. We both hope to get "quality" sound for a paucity of dollars - and that, indeed, may be done these days.
I believe that Kegger is "on the money" when he talks about playing discs on high-quality equipment. The Pioneer 563 is an anomaly - giving sound like the best of them for "cheap." Notice, though, that the new Pioneers are lesser animals. Which company - if any - will pick up where the likes of Pioneer and Toshiba left off?
Unless more folk are willing to, or able to demand quality, we'll be stuck in media-mediocrity. Unless you go "hi-end."
Well - I will have lots more to say about this when the Sony comes - and I can do actual A-B comparisons with the JVC and Sony. If it does what I "think" it will do - It'll be proof of what Kegger is talking about - good sound coming from good equipment and good discs. Stay tuned. .

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Too much to respond to. I'm still thinking about Ghia and her piece of silver. And then I realize Larry also has one of the same and ...






 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2428
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Thanks.

How do you know this if you haven't listened to a
really good player with a really good disk?


I don't. But I don't know what counts as "really good" as regards CD players, or anything else. How much do I have to spend to know that's what I've got? Mrs A already points out that people seem happy enough with whole systems costing as much as our "mid-fi" DVD-player alone. I've got some good discs over the years: as I said, the basic system is good enough for me to tell which those are. Each part of the system is dependent on each other part. I like the system I've got, or, at least, the music it plays. There is no single item I am itching to replace. If someone said "here is x thousand dollars to spend on just one item to improve the sound of your system" I would not know where to start. Maybe some Quad ESL speakers, just to fulfill the old dream, and hear this "point source" imaging, which is what I like most about stereo. More likely I'd get a nice DLP projector, for the family. That's two items. Damn. And thirdly.... A beefier amp. Maybe a tube amp, or a Musical Fidelity power amp, using the NAD receiver pre-pro, or bypassing it completely, for stereo. I do not think my sources/players are so far behind that they are a problem. But I fancy a Naim DVD5. That should remove all worries about the source. Still no SACD, though. So I'd maybe get a Shanling tube SACD/CD player, just for the hell of it. Would that count as a "really good" CD player...?

That all comes to about $20,000 at a rough guess. Not sure it would be worth it, considering other demands in my life. In fact a new car would make far more sense. I would also like to upgrade (but never replace) my Rega turntable. New arm; new motor; new cartridge. Difficult to audition things like that; I'd have to take it on trust, spend the money, and hope I could hear the difference.

Often I think hi-fi is bought just to remove doubts and insecurities; the worries and anxieties of the small hours. But you can't just pay money for peace of mind: you could have been ripped off. Unsatisfied demand is what drives so many people. Learning to enjoy what you have, without becoming complacent, is probably the key.

I still think CD was not what it was claimed. I can play a twenty-year old LP on an unmodified 25 yr old turntable and hear new things. If I have to get a "really good" CD player, to be sure about this, then I'd have to get a "really good" phono system, to compare it with. And off we go, again. As I've written here, before, just spending money makes some people feel good, and is the end in itself. That is not for me. It never could be.
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1039
Registered: Aug-04
John/Kegger

I don't think the early cd's were what was claimed either, but in recent years the quality is definately far superior to those earlier ones. I read somewhere where most are now somewhere bewteen 20 and 24 bits but it's not always labelled so.

As far as quality equipment is concerned, I don't think it is about spending outrageous sums of money - it's all a bit subjective really - but quality sources do come at a price. John, your turnatable still is, but also in it's day was a high end source and by comparison more high end than your current NAD cd player which, I might add is more high end than my Yamaha cd exchange player which I need to connect digitally to my Marantz receiever to get a decent sound quality. But, that is decent enough to know when I am listening to a darn good cd recording.

So, for audio enthusiasts, I don't think it's about spending money to feel good, it's about spending money to be satified with the sound; and the more we are satisfied with the sound, the more we will enjoy the music. And it is an individual liking as to where our money goes - better equipment, new car, jewelry for wife, braces for kids, whatever, but if one is an audio enthusiast it is not a far reach to see him spending money on his favourite pastime rather than to make him feel good just about spending money.

The question we should ask ourselves: is our equipment at a performance level to what we can afford to spend?

As far back as I can recall, superior sound performance always came at a price. So if we have never experienced that performance, it doesn't mean it does not exist.

A line tech is expected soon. The adsl is off again and I'm getting seriously - er - miffed.


 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 104
Registered: Oct-04
John A. and Kegger - as a newly-minted "silver" pardner, can I say, "whoa, guys!" here?
What we have is two opposing viewpoints on LP/CD, and probably never shall the two agree.
John - to get what Kegger says is a really good player, all you have to do is cough up about $800 USD and get a Denon 2910 or similar. That's very good.
Then, you've got to go through a bunch of CDs and pick out those that you THINK sound good, or better, or whatever. Play those, and then play similar LPs and see if you're still convinced the LPs sound "better."
I agree that, for me, 50% of the classical CDs are less than ideal. About 25% of them actually stink. So, I try to read reviews, and listen for myself. Do I get burned? All the time.
But at the same time I realize that I am NOT going to reinvest in a turntable, and LPs.
As you - John - already have those, why not just be happy and forget about trying to do the upgrade waltz?
Kegger - John and I are old men - you are a young man, with fresh and bushy-tailed ideas and tastes. What we have here is a classic stand-off.
I'm with both of you - LPs (some of them) are excellent. CDs (some of them) are well-engineered and, with proper playback equipment, excellent.
May I just say: if you enjoy what you have, ignore outside influences. But - BUT - if you have doubts, or burning desires to explore new territory, then go out, audition, and see what you can glean from the experiences.
If this sounds wishy-washy, well, perhaps it is. In the end - to thine ownself be true.

In closing - Merri, in her art studio, with all of its dust and crud, has a little stereo set, with CDs and FM and a coupl-ah barely-adequate speakers. Well, she loves that $350 set, and finds - to her - that it sounds just fine.
John likes his LPs - Kegger loves his tubes and CDs. OK. What can I say?
(now, where IS that danged Sony???)

More anon. . .
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest



Thanks, John, you saved me quite a bit of typing. I'm still a bit nervous about pushing this ol' computer too hard as it seems to be rather touchy about what I ask it to do lately. I will say, the service performed for a moderate price seems to be functioning well; and, what more could I ask for in today's (or any other day's, for that matter) marketplace. It is just one of those thoughts that now that the structure has been brought down ...

Kegger, you are correct that high end CD players are very good in most cases. Much better than those of us who heard the first CD's would have ever thought. But, as John asks, how good is good? To begin with CD was promoted as "perfect sound" as we have discussed here before. The selling point was the convenience and the performance of ANY player was superior to a turntable. The manufacturers kept telling us that any CD player could beat any price range turntable. Well, today most people who listen will tell you on the terms of fidelity to the original, an LP on a mid priced turntable has qualities that a CD player would be hard pressed to compete with. If those are qualities that appeal to you. We do all listen for different things. I don't know if Ghia ever got the Dual set up to give her response to this idea but I would prefer my table over a CD for just the sound of each. But I have given up on expensive CD players. So I am quite biased. As I have mentioned in some posts to others I find it quite annoying that I am asked to purchase a disc player that the manufacturer admits will be worth next to nothing in five or six years when it needs repair or replacement of a laser. My twenty year old VPI table still works as it did the day I bought it. I do have to replace the cartidge's stylus occassionally but that is, to me, like buying new tires for my car. I hardly have to scrap the whole piece in order to return to an operational state. And with the purchase of a whole new cartridge, like with new tubes, I have a whole new and, if I desire, different system.

There is something to be said for the plug and play concept of contemporary technology; but, not at the expense of the sound or the overall cost to my wallet. When tubes ruled the world it was well known that a different tube could alter your system's performance. Merely replace a tube or two. Solid state took that concept away from consumers and replaced it with the idea that you live with what you are given in exchange for the price of never having to change transistors. If anyone did change output devices they would find, as with tubes, they could get a whole new system. But that isn't how solid state works in most people's mind. When you change a phono cartridge you can get a whole new system. If you would change the analog outputs on a CD player you will get a new sound. (Or so it says in the advertisements.) But that isn't how most people view CD players. Disc players have become the epitome of a disposable product.

And the hierarchy of what is a "good" player is still among us. It is true, for the most part, you will get what you pay for. I always tried to find the best for the least and hit the point where I thought more dollars spent didn't equal the gain I would recieve. I gather most of us are like that on this thread. And for the most part we are all aware of the next step up in quality and what it would cost us to get there.
I don't doubt what you are hearing in the comparison between CD and LP. I would be curious to know what the turntable and arm/cartidge are that you heard. Just out of curiosity.

In my experience selling, the best quality of CD is I can play it over and over; and, as long as I take care of the disc it will last for a long, long time. On the other hand I was replacing demo LP's every few months because they do not hold up to the constant wear of playing the same track over and over for comparison purposes. But I was not replacing the discs I had at home every few months because I handled them differently. If an LP is handled correctly it will give very good sound for years and years. So I don't doubt that you heard lots of noises on the LP. And I don't doubt that someone not used to listening past those noises would be disturbed by them. But for those of us who have had a table for most of our lives the sound is much more fulfilling than most CD's.

The point which John makes is true of all equipment; how good is good enough? I do not mean this as a put down of what you hear or think, Kegger, but that has been the sticking point with so many items in audio for the past fifty years. There is always something better; and, more expensive. The best part of an audio system, to me, is the ability to listen past the system. It is something we have discussed here before. How good does the system have to be to be enjoyable. I would say it should be just good enough. And I think we are all aware of the synergy of several mid priced components that work together well as opposed to expensive pieces that don't work together.

So I imagine you have heard some very good CD systems. If a store can't put together a good demo system you should find another store.

What I think we are once again broaching is the idea of what are we being sold. As Rick and Ghia found, there is some magic in simplicity. And the wow factor can be short lived. This isn't to take away from new technology. As Ghia has found out, there is something to be offered by the new formats. We each have to decide what that quality is and what its worth to us will be. As you discovered, the technology that is written off as inferior and obsolete is full of magic and excitement. Get on a vintage tube site and I'm certain you have seen the pages devoted to small wattage Eicos, Scotts and who knows what that people love for the ability to play music without hype and marketing. And like you, they are getting that sound for very little money (always the best part.)
A system needs to be good enough to enjoy the music and no more.




 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1780
Registered: Dec-03
John i'm not sure how to get my point accross.

I'm not saying you should go buy a really good cd player.

What i'm asking is: if you had a really good cd player would
you still feal that cd's sound as bad as you now believe they do.

obviously you can't answer that and are not going to buy one to find out.

RANTZ BRINGS UP A GOOD POINT:
"John, your turnatable still is, but also in it's day was a high end source and by comparison more high end than your current NAD cd player"

I don't really mean this question just directed at you john
but you have both and have stated that cd is inferior to lp.

so the question i ask is are you giving each format equal oppertunity?

and again the reason i ask this is the recent sounds i've heard
between really good lp and really good cd have me actually suprised
that the cd sounded so good compared to the lp.
then the average sacd/dvd-ac player compared to both of them
had me thinking really good lp,really good cd and
average sacd/dvd-a with a good disk are closer in
sound quality then i would have thought!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest



"Often I think hi-fi is bought just to remove doubts and insecurities; the worries and anxieties of the small hours. But you can't just pay money for peace of mind: you could have been ripped off. Unsatisfied demand is what drives so many people. Learning to enjoy what you have, without becoming complacent, is probably the key."

To this, John, I would disagree. Too often audio is purchased to stir the doubts and insecurities, not remove them. A good salesperson knows, like a performer, always leave them wanting more.
















YOU WANT PERFECT SOUND FOREVER?





















YOU CAN'T HANDLE PERFECT SOUND FOREVER!!!!!













You can't just pay for peace of mind. You have to find it and accpept that you were ripped off only if you let yourself get ripped off. No need to be paranoid. Disappointed, yes. Frustrated, yes. Angry, no.







I love "Prince Valiant" in the Sunday comics.
Always good story telling and a good moral. The story that concluded last Sunday was how to find the Grail. The moral was there is no such thing. When you think you have found it you will find it is not the real item. If you search for the Grail, the only way to find it is to find it within yourself.







Not to get too high minded here; but, that is the story of hifi and of life.










As we have pointed out to those who object to our wanton rambling here on this thread, there is more here than you imagine.




 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1781
Registered: Dec-03
jan: I can't neither want to disagree with abything you have said.

and this:
"And the hierarchy of what is a "good" player is still among us. It is true, for the most part, you will get what you pay for. I always tried to find the best for the least and hit the point where I thought more dollars spent didn't equal the gain I would recieve. I gather most of us are like that on this thread. And for the most part we are all aware of the next step up in quality and what it would cost us to get there.
I don't doubt what you are hearing in the comparison between CD and LP. I would be curious to know what the turntable and arm/cartidge are that you heard. Just out of curiosity."

yes the same as I! bang for the buck!

like I said i'm not sure how to get my point accross.

If it takes a really expensive player with good disks but the
cd sounds incredable! does that mean that it's inferior to lp?

Maybe that is a better way to ask.

And again i'm not trying to argue a point but mearly putting
out a discussion.

As you said for some the clicks and pops and hissing is
hard to get past when it comes to lp. but a good lp sounds awsome!

What i'm throwing out their is if someone had the cash to get
a great digital setup would they still feal that cd is inferior!

Taking into account all aspects of both lp and cd
the good and bad of both!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


I doubt that anyone purchasing a "high end" disc player would find it truly inferior to LP. Merely an alternative that should, and hopefully could, be used in conjunction with LP's. As with tubes, it is a different set of strengths and weaknesses. But there are weaknesses in both formats and to think otherwise is not reality based either. I find it interesting to see more high end CD players being compared to the sound of analog and the manufacturers seeming to aim for that comparison. It was thought, not long ago, that it would take a high priced turntable to compete with a high end CD player. Now you are justifying CD's qualities by wanting to look at the best available while John is happy with his mid priced Rega table.
As Larry says, it is generational. And it is a duel with no victor. The compliment I can pay to CD is they have arrived at this point of sound quality in twenty years. It took analog 100 years to get to this point. But my oh my, what sound they had in that 100 years.




http://www.kingfeatures.com/features/comics/pvaliant/about.htm




 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1783
Registered: Dec-03
Again it seems I can't ask my question right.

"Now you are justifying CD's qualities by wanting to look at the best available while John is happy with his mid priced Rega table."

That's not what I'm trying to get it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1784
Registered: Dec-03
I realize A high end cd player is expensive.

And if that's what it takes to get awsome "audiofile quality"
sound from cd's does it mean that it's still not a good medium
for great sound?

Say you have to spend $1500 for a cdplayer that truly kicks a$$,
awsome/incredable sound using the same media that the average
cd player was using. But on the average cdplayer it sounded ok
at best.

Does that mean it's a subpar format? That with a superiour player
you get awsome sound!

I'm not questioning the "PERFECT SOUND FOREVER"
We all know that is false.
But is cd as bad as some may think?
With the proper equipment can it be great?
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 106
Registered: Oct-04
To all: A long time ago, in a galaxy (or was it an impala?) far. . . but I ramble.
Today, even with my humble JVC, I witnessed both great and awful CD sound: two CDs of Beethoven's 3rd symphony - one Telarc, the other Deutsche Grammophone (sp?) 1984, for both. Early CD, so the Analog to Digital chips were still not great.
The Telarc sound was full, rich and vibrant, while the DG sound was tinny, harsh and distorted.
Years ago - when I was deeply involved in music - I had similar experiences with LPs - some absolutely soul-stirring, others rather lifeless.
The point: you get great and awful in any format.
However, it has been my personal experience that there is a greater range of player-quality in CD players than there was in LP era. At least bad CD sound SEEMS to me to be worse than, well, bad LP sound. Clicks and pops aside, please, as we know that is a given problem with LPs.
I think Jan V. has, in his "let's get this straight" posting, that there is more to musical enjoyment than "upgrading," and that there are levels at which we all can endure, soundwise.
John A. - Jan V. probably - and I have decades of experience with LPs - heck, we grew up even before they were standard fare! (78s, anyone??)
therefore, we may have a different reference point as to likes or dislikes. Chaps such as Kegger - fine friend and audiophile though he may be - grew up with "the liddle disc." Thus, his reference point is bound to be skewed by his personal experiences.
Kegger challenges John's claim that (straight shot to the spittoon) "I never met a CD that I liked like I liked my LPs, ding-dang it!"
So? OK - he's far, far away and doesn't seem violent. Let him jog at 33 1/3 while you dance around at 500 - rpm, that is!
I'm really not sure where this argument - excuse me - "discussion" is going - but here on the near-sidelines, I get confused.
Jan V. has some super-valid comments re how much you should spend, and where, and on what gear. As all of you are too-aware, I'm trying to "upgrade" my system. Why? Very simple: after rigorous testing, it's been proven that my JVC player is a piece of junk with a pretty face. I've been "offered" on this forum a wonderful Denon super-player. ONly problem - I'd have to mortgage the house to have it. Nope.
So, I - with help from most of you - have settled in on a player that I "think" will have the sonic qualities I want/need, at a price that even poor, down-trodden Merri will agree to spend.
John - this won't give me "LP sound." Only LPs will do that.
Kegger - this won't give me sound (probably) as good as your up-graded system.
Or maybe, in a fluke - it will! Since the movers "liberated" all of my LP collection a dozen years ago, well, I don't have the privilege of listening to John's format any more - so I have to make do best I can with CDs - and now SACDs.
Compromise - I had to do it - most of us have to do it, except Classical 1, who apparently has the money to buy whatever he wants. Good for him, but most of us do not have inheritances.
When I get my Sony will my doctor-friend's equipment then sound different to me? Will his multi-thousand-dollar setup be "perfect sound?"
Too many questions, too few answers here, chaps. What I really want is a room somewhere, far away. . . but I digress again. What I really strive for is recorded music that sounds like live music - or as near as I can get it.
My Polk speakers don't do it. Someday I'll get my expensive British speakers, and I'll be better for it. Hopefully. But I don't consider that move to be upgrading just to be spending money. I've heard the speakers, and they are magic. Also $1,500 USD. Gulp. That's just a few hundred less than Mer's two up-coming tooth-crowns. down the road, fer shore!
I'm with Jan - there is too much "let's spend more money because we have more money so we can spend more money." Huh? If that's why a person upgrades stereo, he/she has it wrong.
But - if that person has shopped around, and has determined that spending bigger money will get him/her sound that more closely approaches his/her level of acceptance - the money is, in my very-humble opiinion, well spent.
Now - what was it you were asking, Kegger???

More anon. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 109
Registered: Oct-04
Kegger: CD "can" be as bad as some people think.
With proper equipment, some CDs can be great. It's a disc-at-a-time deal, I'm afraid, sir.
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1040
Registered: Aug-04
Hallelujah!

Back on-line with asdl (ethernet connection for a change).

The line test was perfect which left the culprit to be the modem.

Computer tech (mates rates) $120.00
New modem $168.00

Total: $288.00 and 10 years off my life.

And no one could tell me up front it was the bl00dy modem. Even the computer tech didn't bring a spare to see if that was the problem. The ISP techs didn't have a damn clue. I am sad to say that I yelled at another one of them today. I feel - well - quite justified actually [cheesy grin] but it is not normally in my nature.

Jan,

"A system needs to be good enough to enjoy the music and no more. "

Right on - but it is still a different beast from person to person. And it should also pour the drinks!

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 110
Registered: Oct-04
MR - welcome back from the electronic"bush," my friend. A modem, eh? Thought those things would hum along forever. Shows my knowledge! (grin)
Like your "person to person" reference - what I was trying to say in earlier posts regarding CD/LP sound. Each person hears differently - each disc has its own unique qualities - there is no "standard" CD engineering or sound.
And yelling at techs is good - keeps them awake, well, mostly!

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1041
Registered: Aug-04
Larry Silverman,

Thank you and congrats. Yes we are all different - thank goodness!

Yelling at techs: well kiddies that is bad, no one should do that at all. We should all be pleasant towards each other - after all, they are only doing their job - or pretending!

The isp has a list of recommended modems and only those will be recognised and offered set-up assistance by customer support. Well my customer service person did not recognise their recommended modem and was so useless when I needed some set-up advice, I'm afraid I just had to give him an earful.

Oh well, we've all been there or similar. Man, this cd/lp thing caused quite a stir. I'd say the biggest difference is that the lp makes the best frisbee :-)

Cya!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


"And it should also pour the drinks!"


I refuse to let my system poor the drinks. It keeps going for the Weller when I'm in the mood for Chivas. It feels Weller is as good as it should be and no more. I just bought some new Russian tubes for the Macs; maybe I'll be getting Vodka from now on because it knows where my family lives.

Kegger - Can a CD, given the right player and accompanying equipment, be great? I have no idea, Kegger. Great is a relative term that gets tossed around alot today. Since your passion is Rock pretty hard and as loud as your modified Klipch will play it on occassion, you and I have a different path to great. If you were coming in to a store where I was selling I could probably get you to great; but, it would be easier for me to get Larry or John to that point.
If by great you mean can a CD output enough emotion and drive to get me engaged in the music to the exclusion of everything else around me, then the answer is yes, it can. If by great you mean can it produce enough bass and slam to knock me back a few steps, then the answer is yes, it can. Can it produce a soundstage that is deep and wide and has a clear articulation of performers in space; yes, it can. Can it sound sweet and mellow and not give me a headache after the first five songs; yes, it can. Can a good turntable do this as well or better; yes, it can. Should everyone rush out to buy a turnatble for the improvement John and I hear; no, not at all.

As Larry has pointed out, there are plenty of LP's that I played once and put to the back of the stack. I stopped buying DG's for years because they had such bad sound. Same with RCA Red Seal. But a Philips disc, or Blue Note. Hard to beat. One thing that has disappeared that was popular in the latter days of LP's is the direct to disc recording and half speed master technology. The half speed master is not a technology that would easily apply to CD's, but, the direct to disc certainly could.
The performers were assembled in the same space and the album side was cut in one take. Actually it might require several takes because of problems but what you heard on the completed record was one side of a disc that was played from start to finish with no edits or overdubs. Because it was so different from the way records were made normally, there was an excitement that was in the performance on a very good Sheffield disc. That same disc did not translate to CD in any way. In the late 70's and early 80's the LP was as good as it could get. I've not heard a CD or SACD with that excitement on the disc. Because those who believe in digital (remember the discussion of Vivid? all 1's and 0's are the same and can't be changed) feel it gives them flexibility that they didn't have with analog, they often seem to feel the process isn't as important as it was in the days of direct disc. And, as John and I have heard, the Mercury discs from the 60's (among others from that period) are masterpieces of simplicity that I have not heard replicated in twenty years; since the direct to disc LP's went away.

Now every new record I see is 180 grams and costs twice what a CD does. I would hope they sound good. But I feel there has been something lost in the move to digital formats. It seems more and more often the CD's I find the most appealling are AAD recordings. That says more to me about the quality of what CD has become than any actual comparison of LP vs. CD. Check the back of your Steely Dan discs that you like and tell me what they are. They were recorded late enough they may be DDD, but, I doubt it.
I've still got a few demo discs that I used back in the early 80's that I play every now and then. (As I mentioned to John, a professional danger is getting burned out on songs to the point you never want to hear them again.) Several of these early DDD recordings are quite good, a few astoundingly good. Reference and Wison made fantastic CD's. But they don't sound like the LP's.
Maybe that's my system now. In the 80's and 90's I tried to keep the balance of my system as much alike as possible when I went from LP to CD. That balance has shifted now and the two formats do represent two different sounds to some extent. But the table has stayed the same and the CD's have shifted to a more forward sound with a bit more "HiFi" aspect to their sound. This is certainly noticeable when I go to SACD. (But you all know my feelings about SACD.)
To sit and listen for convenience I'll take my CD player. It's nice to hear the album from start to finish and skip what I don't want to hear. And if I have my way with the Chivas, a CD is less likely to cost me the price of a stylus. If I want to sit and enjoy the music I will take my turntable. Usually!






 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Just for those who care, nothing at all to do with audio, merely a taste of life in Texas:



http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=18063



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Just for those who care:


http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/658DD891CCCDE17E85256DD4004D230 B?opendocument



 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1785
Registered: Dec-03
Well it looks like I either can't get my question answerd.
Or I can't relay my question properly.
Or maybe noone here has heard what todays great cd players sound like
with new transports and tube analog output stages!
With todays best quality dac's!

So no big deal I will let the cd digital source
question die.

All I can say is that I've heard several high end cd players
that in my oppinion rival if not surpass anything analog
that I have heard!
The clarity/resolution/low level detail and pure emotion that these
things deliverd was truly amazing.

I was brought up as turntables were basicly being faded out
and have allways been told lp's are much better then cd's for
sound quality. That's why I was so shocked when I heard what a
really good cd player sounded like!

So that is why I brought up the question if anyone had heard
these would they have the same conclusion!

Or do you just settle for cd is inferior because my player does not sound very good ,
so I will settle for an inexpensive turntable that sounds really good except for the
clicks/pops/hissing and what not!
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1042
Registered: Aug-04
Kegger,

It just might be that we have not heard these "high end players" to give a qualified response - well speaking for myself anyway. But I can only imagine how well they might reproduce some of the excellent cd recordings available these days.

And unless you have already got a stack of old albums or know of good cheap source for "good nick' lp's I think it's pointless to even contemplate a decent turnatable. Better off contemplating your navel.

Cd's, DVD-A's, SACD's will do just fine - especially great hi-res surround recordings. And we all know how Kegger and I feel about that :-)

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2430
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger, Jan, Larry, My Ranz,

Thank you for these responses. All these opinions are worth a lot to me.

What I was trying to say on Nov 10 is that I no longer feel I know much about formats.

I am not saying CD is bad, I am saying it is no better than LP. For sound quality, that is. It could be worse; I am not sure. I still believe I can hear increased resolution in DVD-A compared with CD, and that is good, but it is difficult to compare like with like.

Kegger asks "so the question i ask is are you giving each format equal oppertunity?

The answer is I don't know, and I have no idea how much I have to spend to know.

So then Larry states John - to get what Kegger says is a really good player, all you have to do is cough up about $800 USD and get a Denon 2910 or similar.

Larry , I know you mean well, but this is exactly the problem. I could do that, then read a review of a $5000 Meridian or $3000 Naim, or more expensive Denon model, and wonder what I am missing. I could also read a review of a $500 NAD and wonder if I had wasted $300.

And then which TT/Arm/cartridge is comparable to, say the Denon 2910? You can pay £70,000 for a turntable, without cartridge and tonearm. Do we take the most expensive of each kind of player, and compare those? The least expensive? Buy one of each, at the same price, and compare those? If so, which price point?

The problem is that CD was sold as giving better sound quality Actually "perfect" sound quality - I don't think we should forget that. The claim was untrue. But it worked. Maybe it was a case of telling the biggest lie, so people will not see it for what it is. I don't know about the other older guys, here, but I fell for that one; I was duped. The moral is, don't believe "the industry". It lies. It does not even blink. We must make up our own minds.

BTW I have lectured Larry on the evils of SACD (irony emoticon here please) on "Discoveries" - Kegger and My Rantz, please allow me time to put on the flak jacket. To me, having kept an interest and read press releases etc (as I did in 1982 about CD, by the way) SACD shows all the signs of history repeating itself, and people are queuing up to get MTT/SFSO Mahler 2 or Nashville Skyline, or whatever, believing it will sound better.

The insane part of all this is that the original recording of, say, Nashville Skyline (about 1970?), was analogue. CBS, I think (correct?).

Sometime later it is reissued in CD (whether before or after Sony bought CBS I do not remember). So people throw away their LP (or let the removal company dispose of it), and obediently buy the CD, having been told it carries "perfect" sound. Plus a CD player.

Sometime later, say 1999, the SACD comes out. Sony assures everyone the sound quality is better. Better, that is, than "perfect".... Perhaps there was some problem with translation. So people are really going to be obedient again, buy a disc in yet another format, and a new player, on the assurances of the industry and the reviews of people who have never heard the original...? Which was analogue, not digital.

And knowing they cannot even copy a clip, to play on their own systems, and decide for themselves, before buying? In 1970 you could record from LP onto tape; probably buy a tape version in the first place; in 1986 also from CD to tape; by 1998 also from CD to CD. So you could compare formats, and sample, and share, the music.

My Rantz writes I think it's pointless to even contemplate a decent turnatable. Better off contemplating your navel.

But, once, nearly everyone had one, and had a whole collection of LPs. Now nearly everyone has a CD player, and whole collection of CDs. That is an awful lot of money spent, and for what?

And how long will it be before another medium is touted as replacing SACD? What can any medium do to improve on the original recording?

The music is what it is all about. I submit that new formats are becoming a barrier, not a path, to the music.

This, I think, was Jan's original point. He adds in mutichannel. I am doubtful about that, because I can think of cases where it does what stereo cannot do. But they may be few. There is no doubt that the industry does not deliver on its promises. We have every right to disbelieve.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 111
Registered: Oct-04
To all (yawn) G-day, mates!
Let's see now, where was I? Oh, yes. After reading all of your informative postings, I fall back on my earlier statement that we have to take CDs "a disc at a time." Even more so than with LPs. IMHO.
Kegger and John argue from two musical points of view, I think. Kegger is Rock, with close-miked and tweaked engineering - John tends more toward the Classical, with spacial-miked setups and much more complex waveform patterns in the music itself. Two different challenges - two different ways to engineer - two different sounds, given room acoustics and mic setups.
So - when Kegger says a CD is great - is this Rock - or Classical. Rock, of course.
When John says an LP is great - it is probably Classical.
I say - unless you can get John A. and Kegger to get the exact same recording in both formats, then have both men compare, you'll always get apples and oranges.
Heck, on my Polk speakers, close-miked jazz sounds SO much better than any of my classical discs that I wonder if the Polks were designed only for pop and jazz? No wonder most people seem to love the Polks - from what I read, those people do NOT listen to classical at all!

John A. - When I talked about the Denon 2910 I really meant that it seems to be a fine player, with about as much "fine" engineering as you, with your admittedly "mid-fi" setup, could want. Yes, a Meridian would be better - in some stereo setups. But I doubt that you, or Jan, or Kegger, or Ghia, etc., have such a setup - though those Macs come close!!!
If possible, find a way to audition some higher-end stuff - store, friend's house? I have a wonderful opportunity to do such a thing - time after time. So I can take my discs over and hear them on some very expensive gear - Marantz player, Sunfire receiver, Martin Logan speakers. Couldn't afford them at all. There, the discs that I think sound "awful" here usually sound a tad "better" there - but in comparing them with other discs, they still sound less than great, even on my doc-friend's setup.
Disc-by-disc - that's the way I rate things. After reading as much as I can first, I just jump in, and take the lumps.
Example: There's a new and higly-rated SACD hybrid disc Telarc SACD-60619 - Boston Baroque playing Bach Orchestral Suites.
Reviewers give it "gold" status. OK - bought it,and it sounds flat, reedy, and like it was recorded in an isolation booth. Mer's comment was much more centered: "It stinks," she said.
What's wrong here? Well, first, the performers are using those "period instruments." If you love them, fine - I find that they are not-in-tune much of the time, and grating all the time. IMHO.
Played the disc on the doc's gear, and it sonds light-years better - but still not "gold."
Disc by disc - Telarc "should" be great - but not this time - at least for me.
As to conspiracy theories and the like - well, I would like to believe Sony and its move to SACD, but John might be right.
Frankly, I don't care about Sony's motives, so long as they give me music that sounds better than much of what we have in CD format. And John, you're adherance to DVD-A is admirable, sir, but I will only say that I go with SACD because it has much more in its library, and what is there is what I wish to hear. Perhaps if DVD-A had 1,200 classical titles, I'd go there, too.

OK, now I'm going over to "Discoveries" and see if I can get into a battle there, as well! GRIN
More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2432
Registered: Dec-03
Look, I know my musical tastes run to minority things. But I have been enjoying the music more and more, of late.

Here is an A/B comparison of everything I can think of on just one piece of music.

I have two recordings of some narrow niche chamber music (one may say "cult" in other contexts). Vaughan Williams Phantasy Quintet (written 1912). Let us not get into whether chamber music is, or is not, garbage. Anyone could do a similar comparison with recordings or "Moon River" or "Miss American Pie", though they get seriously re-arranged, which makes comparison more difficult.

LabelEMI Records LtdNaxos HNH International Ltd
Reference NoHQS 13278.555300
Disc formatVinyl LP recordCD DDD (16 bit 44.1 kHz)
Available 2004No*Yes**
Sound formatStereoStereo
MasterAnalogue Tape24-bit digital
ArtistsMusic Group of LondonMaggini Qt plus G Jackson
Recording date19742000
ProducerJohn MordlerAndrew Walton (K&A)
Sound/Balance EngineerStuart ElthamEleanor Thomason
LocationUnspecifiedPotton Hall Suffolk
Recording purchased19742004
Recording cost£4£5 (equivalent)
Played withRega Planar 3/Ortofon VMS 30/III NAD T533
Player purchased19792004
Player cost£130 (inclusive)£300 (equivalent)
Sound qualityExcellent plusExcellent
Extraneous noiseMinor scratch at one pointNone
PerformanceExcellent (some intonation issues)Excellent ("faultless")
Added interestHugh Bean (influential vln teacher)Upcoming group
Coupled withRVW Qts 1 & 3RVW Vln & Cello sonatas
Music (subjective judgement)WonderfulWonderful


*Choice restricted because of market trends, I guess. I cannot find a CD re-issue but it is possible it is out there.

**Outright winner of 2001 "Gramophone" Awards under "Chamber music". Samples on line (MS Media Player).

Which is better?
Does not apply. They are qualitatively different. Having them both is good. They are completely different. Tempi. Phrasing. Interpretation. That is really interesting. To me. I will look for third version. Would certainly want to hear live performance.

Does the CD replace the LP?
No way.

What is the difference in sound quality in 30 years?
Very little. The LP sounds, to me, a little more like I am actually in the presence of the players. But only a little. Where that comes from, I don't know.

Would either sound different on SACD or DVD-A?
I would be interested to know.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1789
Registered: Dec-03
John this:

"I am not saying CD is bad, I am saying it is no better than LP. For sound quality, that is. It could be worse; I am not sure. I still believe I can hear increased resolution in DVD-A compared with CD, and that is good, but it is difficult to compare like with like."

I believe is proper and a true statemeant!
______________________________________________
So the question I ask is IF you had a cd player "high priced unit" and
IF a quality recorded cd sounds as good as a quality dvd-a does on
your dvd-a player would that mean that cd is not as flawed as some believe?

JUST A QUICK YES OR NO! no big paragraph to get lost in.

Because of the cost of the player involved to get that sound
does is still mean cd is not that great?
meaning that if it costs that much to get a player
to show you that cd can be great does that change
your thought, if it costs that much to make it
sound good and an average player can't do it then is the medium still flawed?

YES OR NO?


 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 114
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - a lot of work for you, but I'm not sure of your point here?
I firmly believe that you should listen to your LPs and enjoy them, and not worry about this CD stuff - it only gets you angry!

Kegger: You should know by now that it is as impossible for John A. to answer "yes or no" as it is for an Italian to talk without moving his hands! (double grin)
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 115
Registered: Oct-04
The Sony's dead, gang. Sigh.
Whadda strange day. Called the internet sales place to see about the Sony - they said big problems with shipping - might not get for a long time. Ugh.
Started talking with a techie there, and as we talked he suggested one of the brand-new Yamaha players. Seems that Yamaha has brought out some players that feature audio over video - which interested me!
Soooo - to make a long story short(er) I've ordered a Yamaha DVS5770 - you can read about it on many internet sites - and because of delays and problems and such, well, I get it for the same price (OK, $10 more) than the Sony.
this one is true "universal," John A. et al - so I can play (if I want to) DVD-A, etc.
In the past, I've not been a huge fan of Yamaha, but after reading several trade reports, I think they may be getting better. Hope so! The player is "in the mail" and should get here Tuesday. Will post results - tears or laughs.

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1790
Registered: Dec-03
sounds good lar!
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 116
Registered: Oct-04
AN INSANE DAY:

Kegger - we hope for the best, sir. Now - - -
A short while ago - by UPS - came a small amount of silver cream in a very small jar. It's called "SST" - made by the same company that has made my life better with "Vivid."
OH, NO! you say - here we go again! Well, this is stuff that can't work. Nope. Junk. Snake oil.
Hah! Yah spread some silver goo on all the plugs and the stereo sounds "better." Right. . .
Well, I'll be mercifully short. took everything apart, from power cords to interconnects, and put on the SST. Well. . .
I used as a test a favorite Beethoven string quarter CD - Philips 422 341-2 - Quarneri Quartet playing op. 74 and 131. Kegger, I'm sure you know it well! Anyway. . .
I'd played the first section five times before "glopping," and now played it again. I was amazed. Couldn't be. The sound was warmer, fuller, and each instrument could easily be "picked out". But the acid test. A short time into the first cut there is a place where all four instruments "attack" a note - loudly.
In the past, that note has been sheer pain and distortion. Awful.
Today, when they hit the note - I heard loud music - four instruments playing together.
OK - that's it. No more. The danged stuff seems to work - do NOT ask me why. But if any of you want a tiny dab to put on your connectors, let me know - I can spare a few drops, and I'm always eager to get y'all's opinion. Please let me know, as I mean it. . .
Life gets stranger and stranger around this house - here I am with a different CD player than I wanted, and with some silver goop that I didn't want - and now life looks brighter!
Of course - all would be better if I were playing this on a turntable, with real LPs? (grin)

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1791
Registered: Dec-03
Larry life is full of sh!t that doesn't make sense
good to hear you can tell a difference.

I'm into enough tweaks right now with different tubes
and cables and wire and capacitors and resistors
that I need no more right now thank you!

Not to mention I'm getting ready to do cd mod to the 563!
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 117
Registered: Oct-04
Kegger - wow, I've read on several forums that "modding" the 563 gives absolutely stunning results! Good luck, though you prob-lee won't need it!
If you change yer mind. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2433
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

IF you had a cd player "high priced unit" and
IF a quality recorded cd sounds as good as a quality dvd-a does on your dvd-a player would that mean that cd is not as flawed as some believe?


YES.

Because of the cost of the player involved to get that sound
does is still mean cd is not that great?


NO.

meaning that if it costs that much to get a player
to show you that cd can be great does that change
your thought,


NO.

if it costs that much to make it
sound good and an average player can't do it then is the medium still flawed?


NO.

Larry,

Great. Good luck. It will be laughs, not tears. Some people still think that digital watches are a pretty neat idea. You can do a comparison SACD vs. DVD-A.

I'll rip you some DVD-As of you'd like to compare....

Now, the serious issue cannot be evaded: will you need a new formula of Vivid, specially for he-res....? (emoticon of person ducking for shelter).

Jan,

You are correct. As always. Indeed, the final answer is in Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975)". (There are lots of them; everyone has his own. I particularly cherish the scene about Castle Anthrax; SACD is the trojan rabbit of audio, mark my words...)
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2434
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

IF you had a cd player "high priced unit" and
IF a quality recorded cd sounds as good as a quality dvd-a does on your dvd-a player would that mean that cd is not as flawed as some believe?


YES.

Because of the cost of the player involved to get that sound
does is still mean cd is not that great?


NO.

meaning that if it costs that much to get a player
to show you that cd can be great does that change
your thought,


NO.

if it costs that much to make it
sound good and an average player can't do it then is the medium still flawed?


NO.

Larry,

Great. Good luck. It will be laughs, not tears. Some people still think that digital watches are a pretty neat idea. You can do a comparison SACD vs. DVD-A.

I'll rip you some DVD-As of you'd like to compare....

Now, the serious issue cannot be evaded: will you need a new formula of Vivid, specially for he-res....? (emoticon of person ducking for shelter).

Jan,

You are correct. As always. Indeed, the final answer is in Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975)". (There are lots of them; everyone has his own. I particularly cherish the scene about Castle Anthrax; SACD is the trojan rabbit of audio, mark my words...)
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1792
Registered: Dec-03
Thank you john much appreciated!

Now I just need to find if my theories are correct.

More later after more testing and research.
Again thank you very much!
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1045
Registered: Aug-04
Larry,

I think you'll be happy with the Yamaha Universal player. I looked at the specs and all looks very good without knowing who made the internal components etc.

I've had 2 100 watt integrated amps (first one lasted 13 yrs before I traded in), one 3 channel processor, a cd exchange player and only our first DVD player, a first generation "top of the line" unit gave some grief. One month inside of the 2 yr warranty the laser unit died and the replacement unit died six months later. All the other units performed flawlessly and they were all very well used.

The 5 disc exchange player which we have had for 4.5 yrs now cops a real beating and has worked like a charm. So I wouldn't worry too much about reliability.

I wish you many years of video and audio pleasure. And I think the Yammy has an extra year warranty over the Sony is that right?

Cheers
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2435
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

Yes, good luck. Make sure and let us know how you get on. Despite all this aggro I must confess I would take a universal player more seriously if I were buying again, just to keep options open. As you are into classical, take a look at the Naxos catalogue www.naxos.com. They are cheap, high quality, good performances, and they are doing all their fine DVD-As (about 15) in SACD now, as well as. That is where I would start to compare formats. They will probably be comparable, since Naxos is just a record company and probably has no stake in which format wins: they have them both covered. I have most of their DVD-A discs. There are some nice-looking new releases I do not have yet by the New Zealand Symphony Orch and a Canadian "period instruments" band (we can take that another time......!)

Kegger,

You are welcome. I do not intend my other posts to be evasive. I have to take some days off from the forum. Maybe back on Sunday. Thanks for the questions. One thing, you wrote

All I can say is that I've heard several high end cd players
that in my oppinion rival if not surpass anything analog
that I have heard!


Which ones are you thinking about?

I was meaning to say I have heard some great CDs recently, even on my modest player, so I am kind of back to square one. That was what started me off on Nov 10. I do not know what to think any more.

Having read some reviews, though, I think I will save all my money until I can afford a pair of Quad ESL 988 loudspeakers, and take the rest from there. If it ever happens!

My Rantz,

So glad you are not "outa here"!

Cheers, all.

(Where is Rick...?)
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1046
Registered: Aug-04
Upload


The 'outa here' was for there John, not here.


I'm pleased you're having a break for a couple of days - I need it! As you can see.



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Kegger-

"IF you had a cd player "high priced unit" and
IF a quality recorded cd sounds as good as a quality dvd-a does on your dvd-a player would that mean that cd is not as flawed as some believe?"

YES. But that only addresses CD vs. DVD-A.

"Because of the cost of the player involved to get that sound
does is still mean cd is not that great?"

NO. But it would depend on how much difference I had to spend between the two. Four times as much for the CD player doesn't speak that well for the quality of CD.

"meaning that if it costs that much to get a player
to show you that cd can be great does that change
your thought"

NO. CD is still CD. The fact that it can sound very good has never been an issue.

if it costs that much to make it
sound good and an average player can't do it then is the medium still flawed?

Yes. I think if you listen to three turntables in three price ranges, you will not find the difference in quality between the tables that you can between CD players.(Assumimg you don't use a $79 plug and play table from the Japanese manufacturers.) If it takes a Ferrari to not drive off the road and crash, does that mean the medium is faulty? Yes, because if the medium can't be more consistent then the medium has a flaw. And that has been the history of CD so far. As it has progressed the various "problems" have been fixed and/or eliminated. Does that now make it a good format because all the errors have been fixed? Ask Bill Gates.

I am not sure we are discussing the same thing here, Kegger. Can a CD player sound very good is a yes answer. Can it do what LP can do is, quite often, a no answer. Is LP the epitome of sound quality? That's a no answer also.
But for someone who has both formats available they have become two alternative sources. That's all it amounts to.

Will I be forever grateful CD's were created? Hardly. But they are here and can offer very good sound with extreme convenience compared to LP.

I'm curious now to know what your dealer has to say about this comparison. Are they of a mind that CD's and LP's are equivalent formats? Or are they selling CD with the idea that if you spend enough money you will get sound as good as LP? DVD-A/SACD? How are they approaching the situation? Do they feel they have all three formats set up to an equivalent level or do they favor one over the others? Have you discussed this with them? You've spent some time listening I would think you got into a discussion with them about what you've read on the forum. How did they respond to our input? Are they selling many tables or do they have a preference. When I go into the Linn dealer here they still are very pro LP but not all dealers are. Just curious as to what's going on in your part of the world.

I'm not at all questioning what you have heard, just curious about how you arrived at this conclusion. Your taste in music would lead me to believe you are listening, as Larry said, to something different than John is going to use for his comparison. Not to infer anything, but, there are still audiophiles who are upset when the reviewers use something other than classical music for reviewing purposes. It does present different challenges to the equipment than rock music throws at the gear. I would say the reason many listeners still like the soulnd of LP's is a more relaxed feeling that suits calssical over rock. CD's are going to do rock better, more often, for several reasons. I don't expect you to suddenly listen to Beethoven for your comparisons but I'm interested in how the dealer you visit feels about the various formats.

CD's are an acceptable format. I don't think John is implying they are horrible little demons that should be expunged from the face of the planet. I understood him to mean he is doubting more than just the introduction of CD as a playback format. I would say John is questioning what we're being "sold".


There's a headline in today's Dallas business section that suggests PC's may see a slow down in sales. The quote above the main story and picture is as follows, "If you want people to buy new stuff, you have to continue to remind them to do that. You have to create a perception in the buyer that there really is a difference, even if there isn't one."

If that's not what John is questioning then I certainly have been.




 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 611
Registered: Dec-03
Hi All, and thanks for asking John. It is getting into late fall in upstate New York, and that means getting the property ready for winter. I have been busy blowing leaves, putting away patio furniture, stacking firewood, well you know the drill.

I have been trying to catch up on this thread, and think Kegger is on to something I suspected for a while. A question to the multi-channel hi-res guys. Is it really the multi-channel that is impressing you, or is it because you are perhaps hearing digital for the first time at a higher quality? I think that is the point Kegger was trying to make. Maybe that higher quality was heard by the guys with the high-end CD players first. The other nagging question regarding multi-channel music is this. Most people I know first put together their system around 5.1 for DVD DD and DTS movies. A lot of people went the bipolar/dipolar route for the rear channels. Then along came multichannel music. How does it sound with the polar speakers? I would think you should want full range, no? I always went full range all around even for DD movies on DVD, so I'm curious.

I enjoyed Jan's take on building a system and upgrading. You should be the one to decide, when it sounds right to you. You all know I decided to simplify a few months ago, and don't regret it one bit. Even my wife made a comment the other day, "you must be happy with the new stereo, because I don't see you wanting to make any changes." She is right. I have spent obscene amounts of money over the years only to find listening bliss in a $400 old amp and $700 speakers. Sounds almost too good to be true doesn't it? The one thing the latest discussion again showed, is when upgrading remember-SOURCE FIRST.

Larry-give a review of the player you ultimately decide on.

Rantz, Ghia cheers! Hope all is well.........
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1793
Registered: Dec-03
I think rick has my point to a certain degree!

And that is, have we heard digial at it's best?

My thinking by what I've heard lately is leading me to believe
that we are just starting to scratch the surface of quality digital!

I am not trying say better or worse than lp.
And Yes I do have a bias that I don't like clicks/pops/hissing.
But having said that I can appreciate the other qualities of lp.

All I'm trying to figure out is with the right equipment
can digital emulate/copy/be just as good as analog.
Obviously that is what a dac is trying to do.

What I'm seeing right now is it's very expensive for a medium like cd
to sound very very good.
But a mediocre hi rez player with a good disk can sound extremley good.

What does that mean at this point, I'm not sure
that is why I ask the question to all of you.

Do you get a really expensive cd player so your existing cd's sound good
or do you get a decent universal player and buy new music?
Or do you buy an external dac to do this!

I'm not sure which is better. Does it depend on how many cd's you have?

Will affordable cd players with the right internals to take
full advantage of good cd's come out? And if so when?

This is just stuff I've been pondering.

As I've said before I really only have one real hifi shop
in my area. And the owner is a tube guy/lp.
But he has admitted that digital is getting much better now
to the point he enjoys listening to it. mainly they carry
arcam transports (no sacd or dvd-a had to bring in my denon)
and to me his arcam hooked upto an external high priced tube dac
was simply amazing! I thought sounded better then the lp!

We listened to my denon playing hi-rez and the arcam playing
regular cd's and I could not pick a winner!
But put the tube dac on the arcam and it's no contest
The tube dac was simply amazing! playing regular cd's!
"but maybe it should for $5000" also it worked just as good on
my denon playing regular cd's.

I'm not going to pay that or expect anyone else to
but it told me that it can be done!

So where does that leave me? I'm not sure!
So I'm going to experiment with a mod to my pioneer.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1794
Registered: Dec-03
The next time I go into the shop Jan I will ask the questions you ask
and get more specific equipment and models.

Didn't pay real close attention to most of them because I can't afford them.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 118
Registered: Oct-04
Well, guyz, I had this wunnerful reply to all, then hit some key, and the whole thing disintegrated.
As I remember - will keep you posted on all that happens - and just want all to know that Mer hears a major difference in sound with the SST. Please, please don't ask for a "logical" reason, because we simply have none. Sigh.

Strange that Yamaha has the player that I bought - the DVS5770 - and the same identical player that is for sale in higher-end retail shops, the S1500. Same thangs - different numbers. Only difference - the 5770 is silver, the 1500 black. That's it. Yamaha says so.

This has been a trying day - I think I'm gonna relax a while, then check in again in a couple-ah hours or so. Courage!

 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1047
Registered: Aug-04
Rick

Thanks. "Well" I don't know. I'm still suffering from J.A syndrome :-)

Good to see you back - I suggest a move to Queensland Aus - beautiful one day - perfect the next! Great for Porches and Ghia Cabriolets etc!

Yes, the M C impresses me if it has been engineered/mixed well. But M C alone won't do it. The combo of both the mix and the better resolution is what really creates the wonderful open, crystal clear, spacious and exciting sound experience. If the surround mix is not up to par then we have the 2 channel version as a back-up and usually this format can be truly excellent as well - just like there are many really excellent CD's, though none I have heard yet can hold a candle to a decent hi-res disc. A few may come close - but no cigar!

Full range speakers are recommended for DSD, though not really necessary?. I don't have these, but what I hear with the good M C hi-res recordings is truly sublime - so much so that it is difficult to imagine something better. But certainly bose - er those tiny little box things some call speakers will not cut it for these formats.

You might have great sound with your $400 old amp and $700 speakers, but you don't know what you're missing my friend.




 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 119
Registered: Oct-04
Kegger - real short here. I've given up going into the "higher end" shops here in Swampville, because they treat you like dog doo, and I get very nervous with them. Sigh.
In Chicago, I had two shops full of learned folk who hepped me out - but that is light-years ago in the past. Double sigh.
More anon. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 120
Registered: Oct-04
M. Rantz: Sir, if you think Rick is missing a lot with his $700 speakers - how much am I missing with my $397 Polk speakers? Eh? Waddid yew sae??

Luv to U-n-duh-missuz!

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1795
Registered: Dec-03
Jan it is correct I don't really listen to classical
I have a few disks but find it hard to get into it "I'm not giving up though"

I like jazz and all forms of rock from classic rock
to slow rock to hard rock and some head banging.
probably my most enjoyed music is from the late
sixties to early seventies.


really good singers maybe some soul with a little piano work.
And I love bands that use more of the untraditional rock intruments.
piano
flutes and saxaphone
slow well played bass that you can actually hear the strings being plucked.
(j geils and peter gabriel come to mind)

I pretty much listen to anything but country and very little classical.

And when I test my system I try to run as many different sounding
instruments through it I can.
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1048
Registered: Aug-04
Hey there Larry!

The price is not the point my friend, Rick has a pair of wonderful speakers in those Spendors, I don't know your Polks. I was referring to the extraordinary (note the superlative) multi-channel, hi-res experience we have from our system and I do not believe I am exaggerating.

I'm not into comparing equipment. I believe the sound we are enjoying comes from a mixture of research and luck. One could spend an absolute fortune and still end up with less than great sound with incorrect mixing and matching just as one could spend wisely on a budget and achieve great satisfaction.

And also with some great tweaking products so it seems?



 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1049
Registered: Aug-04
By the way Larry,

I think it will be with Merri's acute (cute) senses that you will indeed achieve the sound you both deserve to enjoy. I'd keep her Larry - give our regards.

Cya
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1796
Registered: Dec-03
Larry when I first walked into this shop the gentelman said
well I havn't seen you in here before.

I said well I probably shouldn't be in here because I'm not sure
I could ever afford anything.

And he came back with well If you can't afford
anything then maybe you can at least learn something.
He's a former engineer/teacher and is a music and hifi lover
who loves to talk and educate.

He's a little quirky sometimes but when it comes down to it
a pretty good guy that will listen and suggest!
come to find out he knows another guy I know that sells from his house
and has been friends with vanderstein for over 30 years.
Also has a working relationship with martinlogan.

So the guy has a pretty good idea about audio.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1797
Registered: Dec-03
Oh yah that's the guy that I got the rouge amp from.

He finds them to be very good for the money.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 612
Registered: Dec-03
Rantz, yes , we must never forget the value of great tweaks. Have you had your cones rubbed lately................................?(LOL!)
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1050
Registered: Aug-04
Rick

Constantly!




 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 613
Registered: Dec-03
Please exercise due caution old friend......wouldn't want to go blind..........make that deaf.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 614
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

On a serious note (an f sharp will due), if you were in the market for a new CD player, would you be looking at something tube based?
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 122
Registered: Oct-04
Boy's mother caught him - told him he'd go blind if he kept doing "that."
Well, the little boy hung his head, and thought for a minute or so, then said:
"Well, is it OK if I just do it 'til I need glasses?"

Other thoughts - will, indeed, keep Merri. Cheaper than alternatives, U no. (grin)

Looking forward to Tuesday, and the new Yamaha. Sigh. Maybe by then it will be a Meridian in Yammie clothing? (hay - sure!)

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2436
Registered: Dec-03
Just, quickly, Jan understands my position completely, and quoted a newspaper: "If you want people to buy new stuff, you have to continue to remind them to do that. You have to create a perception in the buyer that there really is a difference, even if there isn't one."

That is, "Lie".

They do that.

Our job, Old Dogs, is to expose 'em. Smoke 'em out.

I think we are doing pretty well. This thread is a real pleasure.

Kegger, while I am impressed with this talk of tubes, for amps, and it sounds like you have a great dealer there, I cannot quite get a grip on what a tube DAC is. It would require thousands of tubes, surely. Who makes these? Do you have a link?

We should send a delegation to Swampville and assist Larry in his next purchase. I've met dealers like that. "Let your ears decide" (means "don't ask for my opinion"; accompanied by self-congratulatory smile) and then the general attitude that, if you have to ask the price, you are not the sort of customer they want cluttering up their nice shop, which is only for purists with unlimited wealth.

I agree with Kegger, and his fine dealer. Digital sources can be indistinguisable from analogue. CD has a limitation on resolution built-in; it is a compromise, a trade-off, just like the one we make when we decide on the acceptable size of graphics files on a computer disc. CD can still sound amazingly good. DVD-A and SACD just raise the ceiling on how much resolution you can get on a 12 cm disc, for a given playing time. If CD had been more flexible, we could have had 24 bit 192 kHz stereo CDs in 1982, but they would have had about 10 minutes' playing time, max. The engineers would still have to get the microphones in the right place. I agree with Jan and Larry on DG. Wonder what their DVD-As sound like.

Returning to the war, it is still the case that DVD-A is basically CD (LPCM) at higher resolution, plus MLP (optional) plus multichannel (optional). SACD, in contrast, is something else entirely. It is as if microgroove LPs had been introduced with totally different equalization, and playing from inside to out, or upside down, or something. It makes no sense except as a way of making things incompatible with what went before (see "create a perception in the buyer that there really is a difference"). "Keep it simple" it is not. SACD could still be good; I am not saying it isn't. Probably everyone has had enough of this topic, for now.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2437
Registered: Dec-03
Just to say I have definitely fallen in love with the idea of starting at the other end from the source, good though Rick's general principle is. and getting some Quad ESL 988s. All I need is the dosh, and to work a bit on the WAF. Australian HiFi review (pdf, 500 kb). Will be sure to report back, if it ever happens. Rome was not built in a day.
« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Facebook

Directory

Main Forums

Today's Posts

Forum Help

Follow Us