Archive through October 15, 2004
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1622 Registered: Dec-03 | john just to state i neither believe or disbelieve in the product. but the way i see it there are only 2 ways the product works "if it does" 1: helps the player play the disk better because it has something on it. 2: alters the content that is on the disk so it sounds different. in my oppinion if you make a digital copy of a treated disk,save that as an image then have someone download it and make a disk from the image then you have left out 50% of the possabilities of the disk doing what is intended by the manufacturers claim. you would only have answer #2 answer #1 would still be possability. to challange answer #1 you would need to play a treated disk for yourself. that is how i see it. does that make sense? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2253 Registered: Dec-03 | What I do try to shoot down are things claimed, falsely, to be explanations. This is a good and pleasureable sport, and there is no collateral damage, because real explanations are immune to damage. I am not saying I am any better at this than anyone else; I am just saying it is a good thing, and should be encouraged. If we all had more of a zero-tolerance approach to nonsense, it would surely be a good thing. Apart from knowing whether, and how, CD-treatments worked, we could then redeploy advertisers, priests, fortune tellers, politicians etc. and allow them to make useful contributions to society. | |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Ano - Just checking, I assumed there was a reason you are anonymuss. Not a word from me, your secret is safe, nothing to tell, couldn't drag it out of me, not me, no, not me, not a word, no,no! None. Ojo - Whether the difference is detectable is a matter of how someone listens. I am not at all trying to ascribe any special power or talent to myself. Quite often I try a tweak that is supposed to be "jawdropping" and I hear nothing of the sort. So I won't make a claim to have Golden Ears; and, even if I did they are too old now to be much more than brass. The tinnitus has gotten too bad also. I will tell you, with no insult intented, in my 25 years of selling audio every time I had a musician as a client they heard things totally different than I did. I played the classical guitar when I was young but only as a hobby. I was familiar, I thought, with how a musician listens but I never caught on to the professional musicians that came into the shop. So the ears of a musician and the ears of a salesperson seem to be quite a ways apart. I had to hear what I was selling. The musician had to hear what pleased them. As I said I do not argue digital well. I tried to learn enough to not get totally lost when discussing a CD player or DAC with a EE from one of the local telecom companies. (Though they always seemed to like to argue anything.) But I did not make my living with digital, it was a means to an end for me. But my understanding of digital is as it relates to music is that there are some concerns that are not present in most other forms of digital transfers. First, the signal is generally more complex than most digital requires; and, second, it is taking an analogue signal and repersenting it in digital form that pushes the CD format to limits that most other digital has long ago surpassed. The format for CD as written in 1976 means other forms of digital have long ago become more capable of doing the task with more accuracy. But in the 16 bit format of CD so much of the information is used by nonmusical functions that music reproduction is sometimes in the 12 to 14 bit range. So by the time you are getting to 20kHz the amount of information the system has to work with is rather small and prone to errors due to large (by digital standards) amounts of extrapolation. It shouldn't require too many errors at those levels to begin to shift what the 1's and 0's started as to something that slowly morphs into a close facsimile and then drifts farther and farther away from the original. Depending on the accuracy of the playback and record systems this may take many, many copies; but, drift it will according to the information I was given. So my point was not that one copy won't sound like the original but merely that, when you are talking the limits of CD technology, data are not always data. You can correct me I have no doubt my understanding of digital is not much more advanced than 1 & 0 means on & off. Will a treatment expose more anomalies? Well, the examples you site are, by many audiophiles, the types of "detail" that brings the music to life. Or at the very least proves they spent enough money on their system. Audiophiles are a strange group that often value the nonmusical signals more than the music itself. Years ago a system that could expose the sound of the subway under Carnegie Hall recordings were the recommended components among the Golden Ears. So I'm afraid the answer is, yes, the desired effect of these treatments is to make accessible all the information on the disc. It boils down to if you don't want the answer, don't bring up the subject. If you are satisfied with the sound you now have I would tell you to be very careful of what you do to change that sound. Many an audiophile has taken a leap only to find they were much better off where they were. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1623 Registered: Dec-03 | also a digital copy of a digital source is an excact copy of the digital material. their is no degration if you copy it a million times each copy will be the same,have the same data,sound the same and install or play just like the original. also john i understand the need or want to disect something and find if or how it works. but many manufacturers are going to give you false reasons as to why their product works if you can reproduse it easily. take this thing for instance. if the manufacturer came accross car wax and found it worked but can charge a lot more for it because it's an "audio product" they surely are not going to tell you exactly why or how it works when you can just go buy turtle wax real cheap and be done. so sometimes just because a manufacturter hides how they do something doesn't mean it doesn't work. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | "1: helps the player play the disk better because it has something on it." If you'll read the explanation of the Mapleshade products you will see #1 should read : " ... because it doesn't have something on it and because it has something on it." *********** "If we all had more of a zero-tolerance approach to nonsense, it would surely be a good thing." John, really? Nonsense is what makes life interesting. We only allow "advertisers, priests, fortune tellers, politicians etc." to use nonsense because we want to have some fun at their expense. Unfortunately they do get carried away. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | "so sometimes just because a manufacturter hides how they do something doesn't mean it doesn't work." I still say we're talking the Sausage Guy. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 836 Registered: Aug-04 | Okay, here is a series of zeros and ones: 00001111000011100001100001 Let's play pretendies and imagine these zeros and ones are the data on a cd. Now, let's rub some Magic Audio Enhancer on the surface of the cd. Now, can anyone show us what the zeros and ones look like now? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1624 Registered: Dec-03 | jan: "Kegger - I've been waiting for you to explain how Budwieser can improve the sound of a disc when you don't apply it to the disc. I seem to remember that was my experience with 18 year old Chivas. But I'm not certain, it all gets rather blurry toward the end of the evening." well jan i'm no "bud" DRINKER! After a little Cuervo Gold and fine Columbian Makes music a wonderful thing. the music is just a little smoother more laid back. then if you want to take that last edge off the music grab a couple cold labatt's or foster's. after that you can just melt right into the seat your in and the music just kinda puts you in a trance. to keep the music sounding just that good you get a sipping glass of good old bourbon! every 2 hours rotate the bourbon with the beer's! ohyahputonsomemoremusictoo. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2254 Registered: Dec-03 | Guys, guys, I promise I have to go, and it is just warming up. ALso I am out of synch. I was just going to make the same quote as Jan. Kegger, As usual, you get down to basics in fewer words than me! so sometimes just because a manufacturter hides how they do something doesn't mean it doesn't work. That is correct. But hiding how something works is trying to make sure other people do NOT to understand. Then we have lying about how something works. In between we have bullshit, I suppose - hiding it while hiding the fact that you have hidden it, by being deliberately obscure. That wastes everyone's time and energy. I do not respond well to that. john just to state i neither believe or disbelieve in the product. That's where I am, too. But I would like to know. The more I think about it, the less I understand how this stuff works, unless it is cleaning or repairing scratches. Do these guys claim it will still work on a clean, undamaged disc? As regards the effect, on copies, of having treated the original: I think it just has to be that way, if the stuff works at all. If you can hear a difference, the treatment must have improved the accuracy of reading the files. I can't see why the laser and the photodiode in the computer is any different in principle form the ones in the CD player. So if you get more accurate read-out, you will get a more accurate copy when you write what you have read. And it doesn't matter how you store that copy - written on a disc, written as a file on a magnetic disc, just held in RAM, printed on punch-cards. As we say here from time to time, the file is just a sequence of 1s and 0s. The readout of that sequence is either accurate, or it isn't. The copy is an either an identical sequence, indistinguishable from to the original sequence, or it isn't. When you can write perfect CD-Rs at 32 x speed or whatever, I should think reading them at 1x speed probably leaves little room for tweaks. No-one tells me my computer CD drive reads files from disc incorrectly because of "jitter". What am I missing here...?! |
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Anonymuss Unregistered guest | Oof - getting more information here than I wanted! Mr. Vigne - the simple truth is that I stay "anonymuss" because I just don't want to join a group, or be tied down Online in any way. Nothing personal, I assure you, sir - but I've said my piece, and now I'm simply going to disappear off the forum radar. Hope that you all find some way to resolve your Vivid differences! | |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2255 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz did what I was thinking, too.... MR, The answer is; 00001111000011100001100001 Jan, You can correct me I have no doubt my understanding of digital is not much more advanced than 1 & 0 means on & off. My understanding is that that is all there is too it. Basically... Remember this whole forum is a whole lot of 1s and 0s, too. At a rought guess this entire thread, including all the archives, is going to be just about the same amount of information as one short CD track. The original is sitting on the hard drive of a computer somewhere in the US. None of us loses sleep over the possibility that we misunderstand each other because we are each getting different, corrupted copies of the original. In most cases, digital error-correction means what we get is perfect, or it is nothing. I think that is what my computer is doing when it is "check-summing" but I am not sure. When you get digital break-up it is not subtle - see pixelations and sound breakup on satellite transmission. That's the error-correction doing its best on not enough information, as I understand it, and racking down the resolution to give itself big enough samples to work on. You know your newsreader has not suddenly been reincarnated out of Lego bricks. I was going to say "doing its best on not enough information" is a bit like evidence for WMD in Iraq poised, targeted at our cities... Sorry, could not resist. But that was no accident, I do believe; I can see a simpler explanation for that. Then, when nice and intelligent people said "hey, I think I can see where the spin came from" they were sacked, persecuted, driven to suicide etc., in perfect accordance with the view that it was no accident. Somehow I think we all need to be really on the ball about whether signal degradation is by accident or design. And get a big can of Vivid to spray on politicians. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1625 Registered: Dec-03 | john all of this I agree on! " I can't see why the laser and the photodiode in the computer is any different in principle form the ones in the CD player. So if you get more accurate read-out, you will get a more accurate copy when you write what you have read. And it doesn't matter how you store that copy - written on a disc, written as a file on a magnetic disc, just held in RAM, printed on punch-cards. As we say here from time to time, the file is just a sequence of 1s and 0s. The readout of that sequence is either accurate, or it isn't. The copy is an either an identical sequence, indistinguishable from to the original sequence, or it isn't. When you can write perfect CD-Rs at 32 x speed or whatever, I should think reading them at 1x speed probably leaves little room for tweaks. No-one tells me my computer CD drive reads files from disc incorrectly because of "jitter"." you will make an excact copy of the data on the disk. completely agreed! but if somehow the fluid/tweak makes the player play it differently then a copy of the disk makes no difference. when you copy something the copier reads the data ahead in a buffer and if it tries to read something it can't read or has a hard time with keeps trying that section over and over until it gets the info "if it can" then continues on copying. so i can't see how a solution put on disk is going to make a difference in copying unless the disk was messed up to the point where the copier had troulble and the solution fixed or helped that. I've been able to rejuvinate cd's that skippped or froze in a player by copying them because of how the copy process will try many times to extract the data from bad areas. so I do see how playing a disk and copying a disk are different. that's why I lean to the side of "if it does work" then my feeling is on the playing of the disk with the treatment on it. personally that is the only way I can see it work! I am with you on the not taking things for granted that they work and want to know how or why! but stating that it can only be this is where we need to rethink! many things have more than one explination and some are yet to be proved! so my believe is just about anything can happen and maybe their is something we don't know or understand. I have my strong oppinions about this but i also believe their is a possability. that putting something on the disk and playing it back could change something. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2256 Registered: Dec-03 | Anonymuss, You are most welcome here as far as I am concerned. These old dogs have got to know each other well enough to feel comfortable being rude to each other, and I suspect some of us rather enjoy it; I don't think you should take it as more than that. I thank you for opening up the debate. I think. Certainly for stating your view so clearly. The stoplight-and green-marker (should it not be be "golight"?) issue has been discussed before. Vivid is a new one, at least on me. Sorry to change the subject. Please no-one follow WMD, or we will get nowhere. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 837 Registered: Aug-04 | Correct. The cigar goes to John A. Now if we make a copy of the said CD, the copy would contain the data: 00001111000011100001100001 Would it not? Nothing has changed - has it? Okay then, assuming the Magic Audio Enhancer did improve the sound quality of the original cd, how would it be possible for that enhanced quality to be evident on the copy? Because, IMHO, if the magic potion did do something to persuade the listener that something positive had occured audiowise, then the only possibility is that the potion did something that only the optics of the play unit could idendify. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1626 Registered: Dec-03 | rantz if you read my above post I believe we are thinking the same. this does not mean we are right or wrong but looks like we come to the same conclusion. that if it does work, copying will make no difference and it may make a difference if put on a disk and played. I'm not going to say the only possability but to me the most logical! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 838 Registered: Aug-04 | Totally Agreed Kegger, These are our opinions based on our best educated guesses and I accept that most of you guys on this forum are better educated than I. But education does not always a clear path provide - or is that a clear digital path :-) Anyway it's a good wholesome debate! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 840 Registered: Aug-04 | Anonymuss, Yes, John is right. You must be thick-skinned, be able to take it on the jaw, bounce back with a witty retort, be somewhere between slightly and mid-level mad, have a strong sense of humour and never believe a word of what anyone says. If you can find those attributes within yourself then please feel welcome - 24/7 - there's usually someone on call to lay it back on to you. Seriously, you can get used to us. It may not happen overnight, but it will happen. If you don't like what you read - just turn the lights off. |
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Bronze Member Username: OjophileToronto, ON Post Number: 65 Registered: Jun-04 |
Jan, I listen to the music primarily, hear the sound, secondarily. I think all musicians do, amateur or professional. And so do most audiophiles. To me, the music matters more than the medium, that's why I can put up with the sonic limitations of earlier recordings. Here is an interesting article written by the venerable Ian G. Masters. It tells how a musician listens, regardless of the condition of the sound system: On Listening to that Old Material in the Future Other articles by Masters: http://www.mastersonaudio.com/audio.shtml |
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Bronze Member Username: OjophileToronto, ON Post Number: 66 Registered: Jun-04 |
MyRantz, That's precisely my point. |
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Classical 1 Unregistered guest | Yawn - - good morning, all - I've got a rather "lazy day" today, so thought I'd check the Old Dogs forum. Good grief! Did I cause all that ruckus to occur? (big grin here) Won't comment further, except to say that I was interested in "anonymuss" and his green pen experiences. Once used Stoplight, but now may investigate the new Statler (sp?) pens. Maybe the Internet will have more on them? Mr. Vigne - I escaped from Texas with only a minor scare. Had to "consult" with a young woman on-air reporter who tries very hard to sound like Tom Brokaw. Why, I'll never know. anyway - got her into the interview room, and we looked at some of her taped reports. Then I began gently probing as to why she wants to sound that way. She claimed it was her "natural" voice. Not! I played back her original audition tape from three years ago - no speech impediments there! I offered that Mr. Brokaw has a speech impediment, and that copying that will surely lead nowhere (though Mr. Brokaw's replacement, Brian Williams - certainly tries to copy that impediment, also, if you have noticed!)I also commented that Mr. Brokaw will leave the Nightly News show soon - and then what will happen to those who copy his unfortunate speech patterns? The young woman got quite angry, and said that she was not about to change for some "hired gun" like me. Well, she then went to the station manager (who hired me) and accused me of s-word harassment and making inappropriate suggestions. Naturally, the manager called me in for a meeting. What the lady did not realize is that I always set up a tiny camera, hooked to a trusty laptop, and record all sessions - showing both the reporter or anchor, and myself, with sound. I replayed the session for the manager - and that ended that - as far as I'm concerned. What he wants to do with the lady is his business. I got paid - and drove out of Texas! Today - a seminar with about a hundred or so students - then tomorrow, on to Illinois and a session with three anchor people who the station manager says "look like three stooges" on the air. From the tapes, I agree, and will have my hands full with "consulting" them! Oh, well - Siesta Key and my sailboat await at week's end. (early retirement sounds good!) Good to read that the Vivid is getting a thorough airing-out. I will watch to see if any of you actually try the product. Sorry about my long-winded "personal" account, but thought it might interest about half of one percent of you? If not - which one of you said "turn out the lights?" Ah, yes, Mr. Rantz! Good advice, sir. More later. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 557 Registered: Dec-03 | Anonymuss, In reference to your post to Mr. Vigne on 10/12, you stated you served in that "special branch" of the armed forces. Well sir, I truly served in THAT branch from 1966-1972. I believe the explosive you refer to is C4 not C5. Now any real professional would know this, and will give you the benefit of the doubt, that is was a typo, but I truly doubt that as well. I am also sorry I had to make this post, for many on this forum will never think of me the same way again. For some certain questions will be answered, and more will arise. For the record C4 is as harmless as Silly Putty without a detonator. I always preferred mercury switches. I am as sure Mr. Ashcroft doesn't have your folder in hand, as I am about Langley not returning my calls any more. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1627 Registered: Dec-03 | I won't think of you any different rick. you will be the same d!ck you've allways been! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 842 Registered: Aug-04 | Rick, At ease! I've never been able to think of you in the same way at any time :-) But, if that's the sort of stuff you once played with, I'm glad you're still around to tell the tale! |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 558 Registered: Dec-03 | Thank you Kegger, I wouldn't want anything less from the "Old Dogs". LOL! | |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2257 Registered: Dec-03 | I agree with MR and Kegger. And Ojophile. I have just cleaned my computer, but I still read 00001111000011100001100001 Let us suppose Vivid makes it read as 01001111000011100001110001 ...and that sounds better for some reason. Copy that and what do you get? 01001111000011100001110001 So the audible improvement has to be there in the copy. Rick and Anonymuss, My personal opinion of you guys goes up, not down. I was going to reply to Jan on the Brecht-Weill song he mentioned a while back; "yep, up to a point". But we should remember, as MR wrote, also a while back, that we seem to live in countries where there is some degree of freedom of speech. That would not be the case without guys who served them. There was not much point in trying to be reasonable with Mr H, for example; it was tried, and didn't work. Certainly there are some discs whose sonic and musical properties might benefit from application of a controlled amount of C4 or C5, then detonation. I also suppose that spray-on black paint is a simple treatment that can improve almost any C&W disc, making it read: 00000000000000000000000000 BTW where does electostatic charge come into reading CDs? That is another one I can't understand. The charge might attract dust particles, I suppose, but that's about it, isn't it? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | As this forum topic has meandered over to the side of "if I believe, it will be so" I'll believe the following. I thought of Rick as a Republican. I will now think of Rick differently. My thinking about Rick has improved. Rick is now no longer a Republican. Thinking it so, makes it so. Or so it seems. |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 277 Registered: Mar-04 | John A. said:
John, how can you possibly put down an entire genre of music that brought us such classic songs as: Get Your Biscuits In The Oven And Your Buns In Bed Her Teeth Was Stained, But Her Heart Was Pure How Can I Miss You If You Won't Go Away? I Got In At 2 With a 10, And Woke Up At 10 With a 2 I Keep Forgettin' I Forgot About You I Liked You Better Before I Knew You So Well I Still Miss You Baby, But My Aim's Gettin' Better I'm So miserable Without You, It's Like Having You Here I've Got Tears in My Ears From Lying On My Back While I Cry Over you Mama Get A Hammer (There's A Fly On Papa's Head) You're the Reason Our Kids Are So Ugly If My Nose Was Running Money, Honey, I'd Blow It All on You If The Phone Don't Ring, Baby, You'll Know It's Me Thank God And Greyhound She's Gone |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1628 Registered: Dec-03 | jan: my whole point of stating what i felt may have an effect was to show that john saying to copy a disk and posting for download would not make sure that the product did not work. as their may be reasons for it to work that would not be covered by johns experiment. that was all. mearly questioning if the material made a difference during playback only. I have no idea when or how it may work but thought johns "it must be so" may be missguided. so i thought to bring up the question! |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 559 Registered: Dec-03 | J.V. Thank you. I will try to make it easy as to the what is: A Republican with the free will and spirit to slide left and right as required. One must be very careful not to judge by labels put on them, such as Democrat or Republican. I try to look first into one's mind and heart, to see the real character underneath. I chose almost 40 years ago to live my life by the code of the ancient Samauri, for reasons most would not understand. The one word that sums it all up for me is honor. I live each day by a simple motto: "Respect all men...Fear no man." On religion: fundamentally a Buddist. What the world could always count from me: To lend a hand or a sword to the downtrodden or oppressed. The three most important things in the world to me: My Country.....My Family....My friends. On friends: I have chosen them carefully in my lifetime. The ones on this forum are among the ones I value most. You see, I told you all long ago, I'm a very uncomplicated man. LOL! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Classical 1 - Sorry to hear you wanted to get out of Texas as soon as possible. On your way out did you see anyone with the bumper sticker - "I'm not a native Texan but I got here as soon as I could" All I can say is the lady could not have been a native Texan. Texas women do not accuse a man of s-xual h-rrassment. They find them in the parking lot and run over them three times with their Mercedes. Of course, as Molly Ivins says, with the price of gas nowdays, Texas women who want to kill their husbands have to carpool. ********** "Jan, I listen to the music primarily, hear the sound, secondarily. I think all musicians do, amateur or professional. And so do most audiophiles. To me, the music matters more than the medium, that's why I can put up with the sonic limitations of earlier recordings." I don't mean to burst a bubble, ojo, but I have come across far too many audiophiles who place the music second and the sound of their system above all else. That has always been what has made "audiophiles" so strange to the measurement only crowd. Like so many hobbies, being an audiophile appeals to the an-l/retentives and obsessive/compulsives. It has long been known that a group of these hobbyists exist who seldom play a recording that is not on someone's published "Best Sound" list and then only one or two songs that were written up in a magazine as having a particular cut that had a particular example of how good your system could sound - or not sound! AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!! Audiophiles are notorious for only knowing what is on one side of the record. Sam Tellig, in "Stereophile" has been using mono recordings for several years to help him determine the worth of a component. Sam started as "The Audio Cheapskate" but has progressed to reviewing components that would stretch most budgets. I long ago came to the decision that there were two things that a "better" piece of equipment had to do. One was to make more recordings listenable, not fewer. When you can concentrate on the music and not the sound you have much more fun with why you are spending money. The second improvement was the louder the music played the less I had to shout over it. While live music can get loud enough to necissitate raising my voice it happens with far less frequency than with a sound system. I worked with several guys who collected acoustic record players and "antique" phonographs. To hear what music sounds like over the simplest playback equipment should make everyone with ears wonder how far along we have come in the last 100 years. But if there weren't the obsessives in the audio market place there would be fewer manufacturers and that might not be a good thing. ********** "No-one tells me my computer CD drive reads files from disc incorrectly because of "jitter". What am I missing here...?!" The diference between an Audio Nerd and a Computer Nerd. ********** I am always amazed at the absolute faith that is placed in 1's and 0's. If organized religion could muster this much blind belief the world would be a dangerous place. Oh, wait, one religion has and it is more dangerous. OK, never mind that. Let me try this *ne m*re time. I'll g* sl*w. The "impr*vement" CD treatments claim is in the ability *f the laser/read system t* d* its j*b m*re accurately. The way that is d*ne is t* clean and sm**th the material that exists between the laser and the di*de. In *ther w*rds the plastic material that f*rms the layer cl*sest t* the laser. Plastic can bend the light s* any impe fection will be magnified by the size of the "gr**ve" being played. With a better reading *f the fisc surface by the read syst m, there will be less err*r c*rrecti*n. Less err*r c*rrecti*n means th e systems d*wnstream will have a better ch ance *f playing the music as it wsa rec*rded. It is alll ab*ut reading the inf*rmation c**rectly and n*t relying *n e r r * r c* recti*n. Er*r c*rrecti*n is a bad thing by digital music playb ck beliefs. It has n*thing t* d* with c*pies s*unding this way *r that. Reli nce *n a syetem that is using larg amounts *f err*r c*rrecti*n can get thinsg c*nfused. F*r exampl , if I wnat t* read an article that I d*wnl*ad fr*m the web as t*day's New Y*rk Ti es, if I reliy *n large amounts *f err*r c*rrecti*n, h*w can I be ce tain that waht I read is c-----t, er, currnet, uh, current, no, correct? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1629 Registered: Dec-03 | ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, N O P E ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, | |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 843 Registered: Aug-04 | I printed the lower section of Jan's previous post. Then I coated the screen of my monitor with polish and reprinted the same section. Naturally the result was the same: still as clear as mud! John A "Let us suppose Vivid makes it read as 01001111000011100001110001 " Arh, now your just being silly! Sem, That's quite a C&W collection you have podner! a whole lot of twang happenin' there Yee Haa! Rick, "served in THAT branch from 1966-1972" Strewth old mate! Are you really that old? Anyway, I'm feeling downtrodden and oppressed. When can I expect you? Kegger, ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, N O P E ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,," Ditto here. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 560 Registered: Dec-03 | Rantz, I believe the branch Anon was referrring to is the US Army Special Forces more commonly known as "Green Berets". The green beret is just the headgear that we wore in Special Forces. Yes, my friend I am that old, soon to be 57 in fact. As far as you being downtrodden and oppressed, I can't buy that for a second. It always sounds like Mrs. Rantz takes very good care of you. However, in a dire emergency, don't hesitate to call. LOL! Cheers! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 845 Registered: Aug-04 | Rick, I know of the "Green Berets" - poncie caps maybe [grin], but a very tough and resolute bunch all the same. It says a thousand words about you my friend - many more than could be told by "The Duke." Agewise, you only four up on me, but the way time flys I might soon surpass you LOL! And Mrs Rantz - the very best there is! Gotta go and rub some Vivid on my glasses :-) |
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Bronze Member Username: OjophileToronto, ON Post Number: 67 Registered: Jun-04 | ...absolute faith that is placed in 1's and 0's I don't know what you're talking about, Jan. It has nothing to do with faith. The use of the binary system in computers is to simplify processing of data, among other things. But I won't go into that. I'll leave that to IBM, Microsoft, Sun, Oracle, etc. to explain. But... you've made your point. Well taken. So have I. That's it for me. Cheers!  Don It's the music, not the medium, that matters. |
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Silver Member Username: Arnold_layneMadridSpain Post Number: 176 Registered: Jun-04 | I had some salty peanuts with the beverage. Then I had to change disc. Binary sequence became like this: 010###11##001#1####11100#1 Tried to fix it with a few drops of Bud on a cloth: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Then i remebered that somebody mentioned turtle wax: ////////////////////////// And all of a sudden I discovered that there is a secret message hidden in the secuence:
Odd, isn't it? Could it be a watermark for copy protection? |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 846 Registered: Aug-04 | Arnold, LOL! Good one :-) Ojophile, I don't follow that comment of Jan's either. When something just is - and there is no two ways about it - it is not a question of faith - not like one might have in one's old McIntosh. But, please don't be deterred and ride off into the sunset. Stay and have some fun - even if you think others are getting a too serious. The old dogs are getting on a bit and we need the strength in numbers :-) |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1630 Registered: Dec-03 | RANTZ "vivid on glasses" and arnold great posts guy's lol john: "I would loan you my flak jacket but it is full of holes." another good one! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 847 Registered: Aug-04 | "getting a too serious" Damn - in case of any misconceptions, the missing word is "bit" although not the best choice under the circumstances. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 848 Registered: Aug-04 | Kegger, I liked that one of John's too! In fact I'm amazed he's still standing :-) |
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Bronze Member Username: OjophileToronto, ON Post Number: 68 Registered: Jun-04 | My Rantz, didyoumisplaceyourglassesagainorwereyouthinkingfasterthanyouweretyping seemstomeyoumissedsomezerosandonestheretocompleteyoursentence |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 849 Registered: Aug-04 | Ojo, You got it! Glad to see you're still with us :-) |
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Bronze Member Username: OjophileToronto, ON Post Number: 69 Registered: Jun-04 | My Rantz, Thanks. What I meant to say was, that's it, I have no further argument to put forward on CD enhancers, 0's and 1's, etc. etc. In other words, I ran out of steam! Besides, IMHO, the topic(s) has/have been beaten to death that maybe it's time to put it/them to rest. ================== I wanted to open another topic but I'm not sure whether it falls under this "old dog, new tricks" thread, but I'll give it a try, anyway: It's about CD reissues that are being exclusively released from Japan. I don't understand why certain albums in a particular artist's catalog are controlled and thus, available only as imports, and manufactured and distributed by Japanese CD makers. Don't get me wrong, I have NOTHING against the Japanese recording industry. I guess it's nothing more than business? "There must be gold in them thar" tape vaults at CBS, A & M, Verve, Capitol, Warner Bros., Parlophone, Fantasy, Kapp records, etc. What I lament is (a) the rarity of these albums; and (b) the prohibitive price of the Japanese imports if and when they are available. Some examples below, as I was browsing thru amazon.com: David Spinozza self-titled album,US$26.99 Vintage 74 - Sergio Mendes & Brasil 77,US$32.49 Dave Brubeck, Angel Eyes,US$37.49 There are many more out there. What are your thoughts? |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 850 Registered: Aug-04 | Ojo I wondered whether I might have misread you - it just seemed like a formal ending - sorry about that. As to the CD reissues from Japan, my two cents worth would only be that they reissue limited numbers at a time, thus the price hike. Although the discs are relatively inexpensive, printing the sleeve material in smaller runs would most like add to the expense. And off course, profiteering wouldn't enter the equation? With a bit of luck, many of these may eventually become available on the hi-rez formats. |
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Classical 1 Unregistered guest | Yawn - isn't that where I came in this morning? well, this town is so boring - unless you are a college kid! Anyway, my Grand Speech went over well - but if any of you want to feel really, really old - go into a room full of 18-21-year olds. They ALL look like they're 14. Kegger - yep? Yep, sir! Trying to play catch-up here - whatever happened to anonimuss? After Rick's challenge, did he just disappear? Makes me wonder. But at the same time - Mr. Barnes - you say C-4, not C-5 - but let me please ask: haven't I read news reports about C-5 explosives used in some terrorists attacks? Maybe I either misread or the writer mis-wrote! Happens. . . Just wondering, as I'm not military (health problems kept me out). However, sir, I DO have a history of explosives use! Yep (Kegger, sorry. . .) At age 9 or so I was introduced to the wonderful world of dynamite. My uncle used half-sticks with blasting caps and fuses - to blast tree stumps out his orchards. I got to cut fuses and insert them into the caps - but never did get to actually touch the dynamite! Was fun for a kid, however, and I was the center of attention at school when I gave a classroom speech about "how I spent my summer" - blowing up stuff! woweeee!!! Hope you can enlighten me on the C-4 or 5 issue, just for my own amazement, sir. I think I agree with "Ojophile" (fascinating name) that maybe it is time to veer away from the CD enhancement issue - and get back to music itself. But please let us know if some of you do a test! Even if you "prove" that the sound improvement is all in my head. My associate has just called with a contract cancellation - so I am even more inclined to leave this job and spend more time sailing! Oh, yes, Mr. Vigne - the "lady" at the Texas station was NOT a Texas native - she was from California. And I love your references to Texas women - and Molly Ivins, whom I both love and respect. Will probably not post more until I reach Sarasota. Good night from, uh, where am I??? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2261 Registered: Dec-03 | Ojophile wrote "Besides, IMHO, the topic(s) has/have been beaten to death that maybe it's time to put it/them to rest. " Ever eager, I rise to the challenge. Jan, I am with you on analogue compre**ion. What you get when you de-comprekk is always different from what you started with. But the same is not true with "compression" in the digital sense. If in doubt, try compressing a graphics file with Zip, Binhex, Stuffit etc, When you de-compress, what you get out is identical with, and cannot be distinguished from, the original file. MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing) works that way with audio files, as PCM form, so I believe. Mr Rantz gave us a nice number in binary arithmetic: 00001111000011100001100001 Written that way, it seems to have twenty-six bits of information. But here is the same number, also in binary arithmetic: 1111000011100001100001 It is the same number, and only took twenty-two bits! You just leave off the leading zero; it saves space. As long as you know that there are only more zeros to the left, as far as you go, it makes no difference. We can also compress that number into decimal notation, with which we are all more familiar. Writing it then takes less paper, ink, chalk, etching in wood or stone, or line length in the computer screen. So you save energy and time. But it is the same number. The bean counter would need the same number of beans. It is as follows: 3946593 There, that's much easier, it took only seven digits, not twenty-two. But they are decimal digits, so we need ten of them to choose each one from, not just "0" and "1". Take 3946593 (in decimal) and convert it back to binary, and you get 1111000011100001100001 It is the same number. Such things as computers and CD and DVD players are pretty dumb with digits, and cannot handle more than two. They can handle them pretty fast, though; that is what they are good at. Apologies if I am going into didactic mode. But... Under all this I think I have a big, big issue, with Jan. I too find "certain knowledge" a sort of "red-rag-to-the-bull", as Jan seems to, and, I guess, for similar reasons. But digital compression is just mathematics. And I am afraid that mathematics is where we can, and do, indeed, have certainty. "2 + 2 = 4" (in decimal notation) is not a matter of opinion, and there is no point in having a vote on whether to accept it or not. That equation would have to hold for any form of intelligence, anywhere in the universe. If it did not hold, nothing could be described, or understood, because we would then have to be tolerant of logical contradiction. A politican, for example, could answer both "yes" and "no" to exactly the same question, at the same time, and both answers would be true. What some of them wouldn't pay for that freedom. In fact, look at what they have paid, in some cases. Wipe out the 20 million people who heard you say "yes"? No problem, if you truly believe it will lead to a better world..... I think we should be tolerant of people, and their points of view, but intolerant of things that must be wrong. Believe it or not, "2 + 2 = 4" will go being a good bet, regardless of the result of the US presidential election. I think in our Old Dogs' fight for better world etc we have failure written into the contract if we assume everything is a matter of opinion. Some things are; some things aren't. I think that it is being able to tell the difference that will really help. I blush again at going into lecturing mode with my friends here, and my audio elders and betters. Probably political ones, too. So let let me change the subject. Here is MR's number again, as he wrote it: 00001111000011100001100001 As we saw, Vivid might convert it to: 01001111000011100001110001 That looks pretty subtle. Until you change it to decimal. Then, we can see it is a change from 3946593 to 20723825 That is a change from about four million to about twenty million. In other words, roughly a 500 % increase. If that translates to sound and picture quality, I'd say Vivid is pretty good bang for the buck. If anyone is interested: Binary and Decimal Number Converter. By the way (Jan, please wake up at the back!) you do not have to take their word for it. It works just as well counting beans, by making chalk marks on the prison wall, or by any means at our disposal. If you have the time, energy, and inclination, just go ahead. But then, different people are apt to get different answers, and to fight each other over who got the right one. I do wish they wouldn't do that. End of lecture. Any questions? |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 853 Registered: Aug-04 | Darn, here we go again! "As we saw, Vivid might convert it to: 01001111000011100001110001" Where did we see this? You have already admitted that Vivid can't change the code. Remember - you won the bl00dy cigar! Anyone can type whatevr they like, EG: John blows hot air onto disc and code becomes: 11 00 1 000 1 000 111 As I said, you're just being silly John :-) Stop it! Now! Or I'm going to tell my mother on you. |
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LR-CH9 Unregistered guest | To Classical 1 - I am curious to know if you are the same consultant I worked with in Chicago back in 1990. If your name is "Todd" - you were born in Fresno, and suffer from the same "bad left leg" as I do - I'd like to hear from you. I'm now retired, and live not far from you in Florida. wryte4u@comcast.net, and hope to hear from you! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I had a dog once that chased its own tail but this is getting ridiculous. Vivid, Pledge, Stoplite or green/black pens have nothing to do with changing the 1's and 0's. How could they? Those ARE FIXED when the disc is made. I just don't see where that idea came from. The digits remain the same! (There's a song in there.) Can we leave that idea out in the alley, please? Nothing to do with copies! Nothing to do with compression! Nothing to do with reformatting! Nothing!!!!!! The CD/DVD treatments are ALL about OPTICS!!! OPTICS!!! Let me try another example: The original disc surface is covered with a slight film that can impede the laser's ability to follow the little, bitty tiny groove of the CD. That same film can also hinder the laser's reflection off the disc's pits and flats as it passes back to the read diode. That amounts to less information. The foggy miror analogy is my case. The surface of the CD/DVD, even when cleaned of this film, is not perfectly flat. You can't see it but if you were the size of the laser and pits it would look like a piece of sandpaper to you. (Actually if the size were relative it would be more like the boulder that are along the foot of the Colorado mountains.) We all can agreee that plastics refract, or bend, light. Got that? BE ....ND the light! When that happens the track is not read properly. And in a 44k system, with several bits thrown away for dither and so forth, how many chances are there to "see" information above about 15kHz? It gets smaller and smaller. So any point where the information is not properly read will elicit "ERROR CORRECTION". When that happens, the player is making "decisions" about what should fill in the missing bits. It is not playing what is on the disc. It may be "deciding" correctly and putting back what is on the disc; but, the argument for the treatments is wouldn't you rather have the player JUST playing what was put on the disc? We now have CD players with 45 second memory in the error correction circuits. 45 seconds?! So I will say one more time. It is about error correction and jitter. And it is all based on OPTICS! Not on physically changing digits. Just on reading what digits are on the disc! Now can we get off the idea that anything can alter the substrate material of the disc and start discussing OPTICS? Please? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Larry, good to see you're still with us if only in spirit. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 855 Registered: Aug-04 | Jan, You have my vote! Now, can you suggest a good optometrist? Yes, Larry you sly old dog - hope all is well :-) |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1631 Registered: Dec-03 | don't know if anyone is interested. but I saw this on audiogon. Rogers LS7't In EXC.+ orig.cond just figured i'd pass it along. still looking for my 7.1 prepro "to do tube surround" Thinking of a b&k ref 30 with upgrade to 31. or a rotel 1068! |
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New member Username: Blue_noteNewport, RI Post Number: 6 Registered: Oct-04 | Ojophile (Don): Your post regarding rare CDs that are only available as Japanese prints caught my interest (amidst all those rambling and endless statements about bits and bytes, enhancers, digital data, etc.). I've also been searching the world for CD reissues of old LP's. However, my tastes run mostly into the classical and easy listening instrumentals, or what tone-deaf, musically-challenged idiots now refer to as "elevator music". I like jazz, too, although, I'm not familiar with the Dave Brubeck example that you cited. All the Brubeck LPs and CDs I have are under the Columbia and CBS-Sony labels. I think it all boils down to money, the "bottom line." I don't understand either why, in your example, the Brubeck album is not part of the entire US catalog. I'm looking for some Tony Mottola albums --- you know him? Most of the albums listed on amazon.com are as you say, "imports." I have this feeling that I may have to go to Italy and perhaps find his CD's there. The wife would love that, but we have to see how much of our retirement money we can budget for it! Anyway, when you do find the answers to this "exclusive Japanese CD prints" mystery, let me know. "John A." , you seem to have a wide knowledge of LPs and CDs, too. Mind if I pick your brain, sir, on the above mystery? Thanks in advance., Blue Note |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 856 Registered: Aug-04 | Just an aside: Clapton could have had a Fender Bender: |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Good old God, speed is speed. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I have several Tony Mottola LP's from the 70's. I haven't seem anything on CD. But I don't shop the net for discs. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Sould have put this with the above but my fingers got ahead of me. Wasn't Mottola in charge of Sony's record division for quite some time? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Rantz - I can suggest Dr. W**d in Da**as. |
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Bronze Member Username: OjophileToronto, ON Post Number: 70 Registered: Jun-04 | Blue Note, Welcome to the "Old Dogs" thread. Put on your flak jacket, per John A's advice. You'll need it :-) Yes, I used to have Tony Mottola's albums on LP. He was one of the finest session and solo guitarists; I admire his clean and fluid lines. Unfortunately, very few , if any are on CD and very expensive. Go to Italy? Why not? In the name of research? Noticed your "Newport" location; my wife and I drove to Newport in August. Loved the place, stayed for a day, and lost count of all the Lexus, BMW, Volvo and M-Benz cars that whizzed by as we drove. Cheers! P.S. Jan, I think that Sony guy is "Tommy" Mottola, if I'm not mistaken. |
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LR Unregistered guest | JV and Rantz - (blush) uh, U found me. Sigh. It's kinda safe and comfortable here in the closet. . . think I'll stay awhile longer. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2266 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, You wrote "Now can we get off the idea that anything can alter the substrate material of the disc and start discussing OPTICS?" When you make a copy, the information is read off the disc by optics, just as much as when you play the disc in a player. When you write a disc, what is written is what was read. Ergo, anything Vivid, Green marker pen, or incantation of magical spells does to change the optical read-out will be preserved there in the copy, too. Apologies for the outburst of repressed pedagogy. Yesterday I listened to "Another Brick in the Wall Part 2" on the great LPs I bought in Germany, and decided teachers get a bad press. Having said that, I can sympathise with Pink Floyd. Long ago, I spend a year training, and qualifying (successfully) as a teacher, but decided that if children did not actually want to learn anything, that was OK by me. I think I got marked down for having the wrong attitude. Anyway, the time has come to respond to the stinging criticism of my former friend Mr Rantz, who now has the gall to write "As I said, you're just being silly John". MR, whatever did I write to make you put in that awful word "just"....? It is very simple, as far as I can see. Vivid just covers up some of the 1s, so the optical read-out sees 0s, instead. Then the "up to 30 % improvement" comes from tiny specks of Vivid changing a binary "11" (decimal, 3) into a binary "100" (decimal, 4). That is a 33.3' % increase. I suppose it misses in 10 % of cases, which is why the improvement is only 30 %. Sem, Thank you for the titles. Kegger and I have exchanged views on C&W. As I said before, when you play a C&W disc backwards, you get your dawg back, then you get your car back, then your get your wife back.... The great thing about the black paint is that "000000000" reads the same in both directions. Blue Note, Welcome. Sorry, I did not quite catch the question; which mystery? I wonder if Newport looks the same as it did when Bing Crosby serenaded Grace Kelly in the "True Love" whilst miming inexpertly at playing the concertina, and then did that fantastic number "What a swell party this is" with Frank Sinatra. I was there briefly in 1986 and thought I recognised some of the mansions, from the bus. How old I feel. Never mind; next July we collide with Mars. Rick, I doff my hat. Wonderful. |
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New member Username: Blue_noteNewport, RI Post Number: 7 Registered: Oct-04 | Ojophile, Sounds like a long drive from Toronto to Newport, but happy to hear that you and the Missus liked it. No, I don't drive an expensive car, so I was certainly not one of the drivers that "whizzed by" your path. We would have to spend all our retirement money to get one of them fancy cars you mentioned. Not at this age, not in this lifetime. I wish. So did you get a chance to go to this year's Newport Festival? Check out the website here http://www.newportjazz50th.com/ It's held in August, so you might want to plan that for next year. You sound like a serious music fan (or musician? I saw your "unknown theme" post but I don't read music; I'll ask our friends who play decent piano.). The Newport jazz event might be one for you. Hi, John A: The "mystery" refers to the question in Ojophile's (Don's) head as to why some albums in an artist's catalog are manufactured and released exclusively by Japan (see his post several blocks up). I caught his topic as I have been searching and hoping to find CD reissues of LP's that I have. If you take away the usual tourist gimmicks, Newport remains the gem of RI. The fabled mansions are still there, a testament to the Olde Rich that once dominated the local society. Thanks, |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1632 Registered: Dec-03 | I hate to keep going back, I want to quit with this. but then john says something that makes me come back! "Ergo, anything Vivid, Green marker pen, or incantation of magical spells does to change the optical read-out will be preserved there in the copy, too" I agree if the enhancer works it may help the copy process but if the treatmeant is not on the disk you are playing "the copy" then the dips and valleys are still on the disk so vivid won't help because it's not there "on the disk your playing" and if the stoplight is not apllied to the disk "copy" then it won't block any light while it's playing. so john I still don't see your logic. so please please refrain from saying "it must be there on the copy" I disagree completly! If the product works I feel it would have to be on the disk your playing! because if you treat a disk and it works then make a copy and play that copy without any treatmeant then everything the product was trying to help begins all over again on the new disk! so that disk "imo" would need to be treated to have the product do what it was intended to do. If vivid fixes dips the new copied disk has dips too and with no treatmeant on the disk the dips are still there. If stoplight blocks light from ecscaping then the copied disk would need it to so it can block the light when it is playing! to me it is that simple! |
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J. V001110001110012 Unregistered guest | OK, OK, I give up!!! If the copy is a copy of a compressed file that hs been WAV'd to MMSs 3 ( or the Lusitania) and then the copy isn't copioed but it is miscopied by converting the 1's and 0's to Catholicism hy the dithering of the 0000000011111110000000011111 then you will havtormtymgneiducfskcm, adwermjerjgaerg...... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Rantz - I just remembered, Dr. W**d can l**k at f**t t**. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 857 Registered: Aug-04 | Jan, Thanks, I can kill two birds with the one stone! Ex Friend, Whatever it is you've been taking, you should offer some to GWB as they say say he's lost a little leeway in the debate stakes. And please let me know if there are any other words besides "just" and "SACD" that you hate and I'll try my best to refrain from using them. But, you're quite right old ex buddy, Vivid does alter the information: I rubbed some on my copy of "Master & Commander" and when I played next played it, I got Debbie doing Dallas. Yes Jan, that was me - should I apologise or not?  |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 858 Registered: Aug-04 | Sorry for the typos, I spilt a little Vivid on my keyboard! | |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Not really. With what Dallas has become, we're to the point we welcome anyone to do us. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Larry, sorry to let in too much light. But I knew you couldn't resist our perspicacious personalities, lucent logic, ready witted repartee, clever quips, learned lessons, effusive effulgence and brilliant banter for long. If you need anything in there - a blanket or something to eat or a flashlight - just knock. |
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Bronze Member Username: OjophileToronto, ON Post Number: 71 Registered: Jun-04 | Larry! You knew very well that dogs, Old Dogs, can sniff you out. You can run but you can't hide. Welcome back, friend. It's safe to come out now. Ivan, Frances, and Jeanne are gone. Blue Note, We missed the Newport Jazz Festival when we were there. It wasn't actually on our itinerary, but I knew it was around that time. Thanks for the link. If you're also a jazz fan, we have the (a) Toronto Jazz Festival; and (b) Montreal International Jazz Festival. Both events are held in late June when it's warm. Lots of music and great kick-*ss Canadian beer. Cheers! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 860 Registered: Aug-04 | Larry, one more thing if may - don't be that skeleton in your closet :-) |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | From a copy of the Shostakovich Quartets I just got: A LIFE "What are you complaining about? Only in this country is poetry truly respected; people are even killed because of it. This happens nowhere else." Osip Mandelshtam, to his wife |
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New member Username: Blue_noteNewport, RI Post Number: 8 Registered: Oct-04 | Hmmm... wonder what's goin' on here? Sounds to me like some of the "Old Dogs" were barking at each other in the last few postings. Time for some snacks? What really is this "teaching an old dog new tricks" thread all about? Where is it leading to? Am I in the wrong place, wrong time? |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 861 Registered: Aug-04 | Blue_Note The thread was started by J Vigne and John A to debate the benefits of 2 channel stereo over the benefits of multi-channel hi-rez. Correct me if I'm wrong doggies. What you have to understand about this group of old dogs is that to gain membership, you must be thick-skinned, slightly mad or higher, have a sense of humour, be able to look at adversity in the eye, be an obsessive-compulsive, be able to take it on the chin, and above all, have a forgiving attitude as the amount mud slung in your direction could possibly bury a small village. Other than that it leads nowhere, it's really about nothing and everything, and if we read carefully, we can sometimes learn a thing or two. Overall it's really rather exciting - if you don't have much of a life. And you are in the right place at the right time! And thanks for that wonderful Van Morrison cd "What's Wrong With This Picture" - only you had to go and spoil it with the dreaded Copy Protection. Uh Oh - I probably just opened that can of worms again! |
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Larry R Unregistered guest | Thank you, friends. (peek) I guess it's safe to open the door just a bit. . .howeverrrrrrrrr. With all your talk about blowing up stuff and threatening to take away each other's 1's and 0's, well, if you could send some chocolate, maybe I'll just sit and watch awhile longer. I really am gun-shy, you know! Twice burned once learned, and all that... So I'll close the door again, but I may be watching. Nothing really to say, except I agree with some of you - Vivid does make CDs sound more full-bodied and "complete." Click. . . |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | HAH! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 863 Registered: Aug-04 | "From a copy of the Shostakovich Quartets I just got: A LIFE " Jan, do you think if I got a copy I could get a life too? Or does the disc need a Vivid treatment first? Duck! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2268 Registered: Dec-03 | Or "H*H!" as it reads before error-correction. Here I am with about twelve old questions to address. I guess most old dogs are on the prowl at night, in N American time zones, while MR never sleeps. Like me. It would be easier from Florid-duh. I saw some bites from ASU last night and I got the impression that GW's animatronics experts had got the facial expressions and hand gestures out of synch, and they were both from a totally different recording compared with the audio channel. I have always thought that about that guy. The "Smoke 'em out" speech, I thought, was particularly puzzling, since it had been dubbed onto the visuals of someone diffidently inviting social superiors to a party where something illegal was going to happen. At least he has stopped the self-congratulatory sideways glances. He still smiles a lot at his own wit. Worrying. Kerry, on the other hand, seemed straight and forthright, but only because he'd managed to forget that the used car he was selling had been clocked. Probably by someone else. He was not perturbed because he knew any proven clocking could only bring down someone else; he had been briefed on a need-to-know basis. I think JK would find TB's former adviser, Mr Campbell, a very useful guy to have around, and I think he needs a job. JK and TB would get on fine, and understand each other perfectly. 2 plus 2 would always equal whatever won them votes and kept them in power. I thought the question about "what part does personal faith play in your politics?" could have been designed to display politicians at their worst. Devious, disingenuous, trying to say all things to all men. Saying nothing, but with gravitas. Either they meant what they said, or they didn't. In either case it worries me that one of them is going to be "leader of the free world" or whatever it is. Kegger, "so john I still don't see your logic" Sorry! I am doing my best. To re-phrase. The treatment does something to the way the player reads what is on the original disc. It seem to me that the treatment must do the same thing, whatever it is, whether the disc is being read by a player or by a computer (the only difference between those two is what happens down-stream, after the disc is read). Therefore, if the treatment improves the sound, by whatever means, it must improve what is being written into RAM, onto the magnetic disc, and onto any copy that is made. If fact, I think there is less scope for error in the player, which is only reading at 1x speed in the first place. Computer CD drives can read discs much faster than that, and still with no errors. None at all. Just as an anecdote, I have made a disc copy and burned a DVD-A (shhh, don't tell the industry). Now the original disc had a strange hiss for the first ten seconds or so, on the first track. Only. It goes away if I choose "repeat play" and play that track a second time. I still don't know the explanation. It seemed to be my player, otherwise why did it disappear on second and subsequent playings? Well, the copied disc produces exactly the same effect. Whatever the player is doing, it is responding to exactly the same sequence of 1s and 0s. Instead of MRs message with 22 bits, the number of bits in the DVD-A is about four with ten zeros after it. But it is perfect - exactly the same as the original. Isn't that something. If I were to put a small mark on the disc to make the laser mistrack, then the copy I made would have that mistracking burned into it. No....? So, if there is dirt or gremlins or something on the original, and thea treatment makes it sound better by getting rid of them, then it is going to make the computer make a copy that comes from reading the disc minus dirt or gremlins. No....? So any effect of treatment, good or bad, will be burned into the copy... So, why aren't we told to use Vivid in our computer disc drives, too, the help make more accurate copies? And why aren't CD-mastering facilities awash with the stuff? I agree this is getting a bit long-winded. All I am saying is, if that stuff works, I have real problems understanding how, and I must have got something wrong about how optical discs work in the first place. So, please correct me, anyone. Blue Note, Thanks. I thought Newport, RI, was a great place, much more up-market than the older one which I am from. I'm sorry, I can't think why Japanese record labels carry old recordings unobtainable elsewhere. I have dropped into record stores in Japan and the stock is huge; it is probably just that their domestic market is bigger and more diverse, so they keep larger catalogues for longer. That's all I can think of. I have some nice CDs I bought in Japan, like the Bach violin sonatas by Ton Koopman and Monica Huggett, on Philips, all pictures and content about as European as you can get, but with no text that makes any sense to me on the cover or the booklet. Except the track numbers. That is the only way I could get around, catch trains etc. If they had Japanese numbers, too, it would be impossible for westerners, to visit, I think, without personal guides. Jan, Which version of the String Quartets? [In the time it took to write this there will have been several posts. "H*H" may not make sense any longer] |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2269 Registered: Dec-03 | [It was only my old friend Mr Rantz. He is right. I, too, must get a life. Smetana wrote a tone poem about his life, so presumably he had one. There, the duck got both barrels. The dogs will find it in no time.] | |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1634 Registered: Dec-03 | john I agree that it may make the copy process better. but somehow (and i don't know) you are still not seeing or at least acknowlaging my point. and i'm not sure how else to explain it. but i will try 1 more time. ok lets say the original disk has flaws in the flattness of the disk "pits,whatever" and vivid smooths them out. now you make a copy of that disk. now suppose the blank disk has the same flaws in the flattness of the disk "pits" "not in the same places mind you just random imperfections" now you have a disk that has a copy from a good source onto a nonflat "pitted" disk. if that disk is not treated with vivid you have the same issue you started with but the pits, dips, valleys, are in different places. the samething with stoplight. if stoplight stops the light from coming out around the edge how will a copied disk with no stoplight on the copy do them same thing. if you have no stoplight on the disk it will not stop the light. I can't explain it any better then that. do you get what i'm saying? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2271 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Kegger. I get it. It sometimes takes a long time! But look, forget, just for a minute, about the disc copy. Think about the disc image, a file on a hard disc, say posted in the internet. No pits, no disc to be flat or not flat. If Vivid has an effect you can hear, it has to have an effect on read-out of the original disc, and that has to be stored in that file. But if the file is an exact copy of the file on the original CD.... I suppose we could assume that Vivid has some effect in CD player drives but not in computer CD drives. I can't imagine how that could be. So I still think we could conduct an experiment, and make a comparison, using dowloaded disc images. |
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The Nun Unregistered guest | The sisters have been telling me there's someone on this thread that needs a darn good whack. It's causes me great distress to move between threads, it upsets the 1's and 0's, but this silliness is becoming far too serious. Now Johnny please bend over! WHACK! Swoooooooooooooooooooooooooosh! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 865 Registered: Aug-04 | Oh no, now look what's happened! Kegger, stop it! Settle down. When you're my age you'll regret pulling your hair out. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1635 Registered: Dec-03 | allright I sware this is the last one, I promise! john: "If Vivid has an effect you can hear, it has to have an effect on read-out of the original disc, and that has to be stored in that file. But if the file is an exact copy of the file on the original CD...." yes now you put that image on a disk that is not treated with vivid now that disk has "it's own" pits/crevaces or whatever imperfections so now if you don't treat that disk before you play it then this has the same problems the original had just in different places. that's all I can say. if you don't have vivid to put on the disk the imperfections will be on whatever disk you play. they will just be in different areas. |
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Marc C Unregistered guest | John A, Settled on 104/2's for the girlfriend - Yes. Purchased - No. lol... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2273 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, yes now you put that image on a disk that is not treated with vivid now that disk has "it's own" pits/crevaces or whatever imperfections so now if you don't treat that disk before you play it then this has the same problems the original had just in different places. Yes, I understand. But, from that, a CD, without Vivid, would be a flawed medium for all digital storage. The second copy you make, from the first, would also have similar problems, in difference places. Then the third copy, made from the second, would add more problems to those. And so on. So you would get degradation of the sound as you increase the number of generations the files had been copied through, using CD as the storage medium. That doesn't happen. And that would apply to all digital files. An audio file is just one file type. Even the file type is specified by 1s and 0s. As I said, I think we are applying an analogue model of reading and copying to a digital medium, and it doesn't work. If I take a Cd and copy its aiff files onto my hard disc, then send what my computer reads out from those files to Airport express, then the 1s and 0s go from there via TOS-link to the DAC in my receiver. My first impression is that what I hear by that route is identical to what I hear if I play the original CD in a player, using "digital out" to the receiver. I guess I could listen harder, but that result is really no more than I would expect; I am not surprised, and do not see a problem. Of course, what this means is that there is no difference between CD players if you use them just as transports to deliver the 1s and 0s to the same DAC, say in the receiver. That wipes out half the "CD Players" category on this forum, as far as I can see. Would I expect Vivid to produce an audible effect going through the computer-Airport Express route, missing out CD players completely? No. I can't see the point of even trying that. Since I cannot see how the treatment affects disc read-out in a player but not in a computer, then I come down on the side of thinking Vivid probably does not do anything at all, except maybe clean and polish discs. This is with all due respect to Classical 1 and to others, who honestly believe it does. What we should do is try it. But instead of buying a bottle of the stuff, I'd rather spend the money on a round of drinks for Old Dogs, especially you, Kegger. I've already offered one to MR, on another thread. He declined. Jan, I had a geography teacher who did exactly that, under the slightest pretext, with a board ruler, about 4 ft long. He enjoyed it; his eyes lit up. He should have been thrown in prison, in my view. Girls (it was co-ed) got hit on the flat of the hand with an ordinary ruler; this was regarded as chivalrous, or something. I guess "hey teacher" was inspired by guys like that. Billy Connelly told a story about meeting someone at his daughter's graduation ceremony who said something like "Ah, Mr Connelly, I wonder if you remember my aunt, Miss X, who, many years ago, was your teacher in the third form?". His reply was "Lady, that wumman wusna a teacher; she was a psychopath". What, with My Rantz declining my drink, I am beginning to feel the power of peer-group disapproval, more deadly than any board ruler! Marc, Thanks. It must be a long engagement. I wonder who is paying, but it is none of my business, of course. Brave of you to step in here! The flak jackets are behind the door. I am pondering a pair of KEF 102s. They'll probably be gone before I convince Mrs A, and make up our mind. |
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Larry R Unregistered guest | John and all - it's been very dark in my closet, condusive to thinking, I believe. I wonder if any of you have contacted Walker Audio directly, to ask them your questions? Well, I have - twice, now. First reply from Lloyd Walker was that his Vivid is not car wax, that it does indeed remove the mold release film, then coats the disc to make it more "optically transparent." OK so far. Now I've e-mailed him again - with links to this forum - asking him for more information. I hope he answers, and I shall pass along whatever he says. I am a short-time user of Vivid, and will NOT get into an argument over it - but merely state that "to my ears, and to those of my wife" Vivid does make CDs sound more natural, less strident, and with a warmer, fuller sound. If that's all in our heads, well, OK - I'll accept that, and enjoy the difference! I am not a scientist, but a journalist (or was, anyway) so I'm more used to getting answers than to giving them. At first, I too thought Vivid was probably another scam - but I spent a chunk of retirement money because I read too many positive responses to discount its effects. I don't have classical 1's six-person test, but I just add my humble 2-person experience to back up what he claims. Though I'm not sure I agree with the "louder" portion. I once had a pair of Kef 104/2s - sigh - gave them up when wife and I decided to "chuck it" and try to live on a big sailboat. Regret both. The Polk speakers I now have are no match, in any way. So, I've made some bad decisions, you bet! Back to the dark, for now. . . |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1636 Registered: Dec-03 | well john i think we got each other finaly. like i said i neither back nor bash the product just feal to make a fair test would have get some. yu know i will take that drink johnny! I just get frustrated when i'm trying to make a point and someone can't see it. it's a flaw on my side! just one of many. _____________________________________ yo lar good to see yur doin allright. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1637 Registered: Dec-03 | john: by the way i'm sure if mr. rantz refused a drink he was either allready full or just upset at the time! I'll speak for him, he'll take take that drink! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1638 Registered: Dec-03 | The 10.2 system utilizes eight Klipsch KPT-MCM-4-T Grand loudspeakers, the world's first and only fully horn-loaded, THX-Approved four-way cinema sound system, offering the ultimate in audio performance. For extended bass response and controlled coverage, the theater features 20 KPT-1201 THX-Certified surround speakers used in an array configuration. A series of three-way KPT-250s are being utilized as point-source surrounds in the 10.2 system and provide high power handling, extreme efficiency, extended bass response and exceptional control. For overhead effects, a pair of KI-362 three-way speakers are mounted to the 50-foot ceiling and have the ability to produce 116 decibels of sound. They provide approximately 100 degrees of square dispersion and cover the entire seating area. An additional KI-362 is utilized as a point-source rear center for 10.2 presentations only. Two hybrid KPT-415-LFs, featuring KPT-402-MF horns on top, handle the theater's left and right surround content for large format and 10.2 presentations. "The best way to describe this configuration is if you hit a ping pong ball around the room you would actually hear it bounce in every point that it could," said Thomson. The entire speaker complement actually has 18 discrete channels and different ones are used for different sound formats. Ultimately, Mike Thomson and Tomlinson Holman plan to further the experiment and use all 18 channels as a single system for demonstration purposes. Together, they plan to prove that 10.2 is the future of cinema audio for a more realistic, dramatic sound experience. Naturally, this theater has the ability to play eight-channel Sony SDDS, conventional DTS and Dolby Digital 5.1 and 6.1. All of these formats are capable of running in EX mode, which means there is an extra channel in the back of the theater. In fact, this auditorium is the second in the world to incorporate Dolby's new ceiling array for the EX format. This new feature delivers exceptional, true-to-life sound that can trick audiences into believing a helicopter has landed in the theater or that the roof is caving in. Guests are sure to enjoy the excitement, suspense and emotion of Hollywood inside this THX approved auditorium that can play both 70mm film and 35mm film. "This auditorium gives movie-goers the finest presentation in the world," said Thomson. The Paradiso's 13 other auditoriums feature a variety of Klipsch speakers to achieve the highest level of performance for the space and an ideal rotation of blockbuster films. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | "I just get frustrated when i'm trying to make a point and someone can't see it." Kegger, believe me, I know how you feel. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | KEGGER Gold Member Post Number: 1638 Registered: Dec-03 Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 10:44 am: Yada, Yada. Yada, Yada. 10.2. Yada,Yada. Yada, Yada. 18 channels. Yada, Yada. Yada, Yada. Bounce around the room. Yada, Yada. Yada, Yada. The roof is caving in. Yada, Yada. Yada, Yada. Am I the only one who listens in stereo? How old I feel! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1639 Registered: Dec-03 | ..................Y E P.................... | |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1640 Registered: Dec-03 | well u know what i say to 10 or 18 channels. bring em on babbyy!! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | On another thread John wrote: "Arcam's pdf document dvd-a vs sacd (430 kB) is interesting. Even the hardware costs of including DSD decoding are formidable, and it offers no advantage in terms of sound quality. Check here, John: http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=3184259/fd=1 $107 isn't bad. Particularly when you consider the value of the Dollar to the Euro. You should be able to buy this for about 70 Euros. |
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MASTER PO Unregistered guest | Grasshoppers, "He who asks ia a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever." |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 867 Registered: Aug-04 | Okay guys, John A and I have been at each other a bit it on the subject in this thread:"DVD-A in 2 channel" In it, you find the truth behind the declining of the drink: "I appreciate the drink, but I know my throat will remain dry, so save your money for the move. Just a glass of water ta!" My above response to John's kind offer was a tongue in cheek remark referring to the fact that the buying of a drink in absentia many thousands of miles away would not serve my palate. It's a shame he felt the need to malign my character rather than appreciate my consideration to save his money. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 868 Registered: Aug-04 | "I just get frustrated when i'm trying to make a point and someone can't see it." Kegger, believe me, I know how you feel. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I've heard that somewhere before. Except the version I had ended in, "particularly when you are all to slow to see I'm right". Oh, well, probably best left as is. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 870 Registered: Aug-04 | Well,it was easier to c&p rather than type the whole darn thing again. And Jan, we have to be pretty slow to see if you're right, particularly when you seem to lean more towards the left. Which I find strange 'cause I thought all Texans were right, but correct me if I'm wrong because I don't want to be left here thinking I'm right. |
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