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HK AVR 525 - Triple Crossover settings

 

Anonymous
 
I am trying to setup the triple crossover setting in my HK AVR 525, I have 3way JBL 310-II as my F L/R , JBL 38 as S L/R and JBL Sub,My center is JBL a S-center and SB L/R are N-center type.I have set this up as 7.1.

Problem that I am facing is that , once you group your speakers as "Large" it does not allow me to change the triple crossover frequencies . Is this a problem with My receiver or do I need to change the config ?

But If I change my speaker setup to "Small" , it allows to change the settings as required !

Please help me to understand this configuration issue.
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 98
Registered: 12-2003
Anonymous: I have the AVR-525. I have my "Bass Manager" set to INDEPENDANT. This allows me to set the crossover point for my speakers... which are all set to LARGE.
 

Anonymous
 
hi, geekboy:
I just got the HK525. I did turn up the vol to >+6db but only for a short time, I think both Bose cubes are still ok.
I would like to know how to adjust the sound output on the center and surround speakers. It seems most dynamic goes to the front spkrs. If the channels are indpendent powered, then the sur spkrs should get as loud as the fronts?
2nd Q: I plan to use the back spkrs in the patio. Do I just connect the spkrs cables, how do I set these spkrs to different source than the main?
Thanks. Goosedad
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 99
Registered: 12-2003
Anon:

1. Did you use EzSet to setup (configure) your speakers? If not, then try this first. For a more precise setup, you should get an SPL Meter (from Radio Shack) and do this manually, by using "Speaker Adjust" in the OSD for the AVR-525.

2. Yes, in the OSD, however, you'll have to change the setting to tell the AVR-525 that the Surround Back speakers are for the 2nd zone. (I don't recall the exact setting, because I'm not at home).
 

Anonymous
 
hi, Geekboy:
Thanks for your reply. I took your suggestion and got a SPL meter. I set the vol at 0db, then turn on the test tone, I sat in the middle of the room and held the meter at ear level. I got ~80db.I used the remote and the light was red(too hi). Since I don't know the reference, is 80db good? You said the spkr o/p ~95db/m/watt, if the channel o/p 35w at 4 meter length, the db is quite large (35*95/sq(4)). I am confused! Is 0db the mid point for the 525 (ie.35W)?

I did set up the 2nd zone. It worked if I put on the tuner (FM) in 2nd zone, if I put on CD (use coax 1), there is no sound in the 2nd zone. Why? The main room works fine. The 2nd zone remote works much the same as the other remote, since I can not control the rx using the 2nd remote from the 2nd zone, why two remotes?

You said you have upgarded your spkrs, what model are you using? Are they sat. spkrs (front) or towers?
Goosedad
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 105
Registered: 12-2003
Anon: 80dB and you're at half power. That's interesting. When you "sat" in the middle of the room... is that location your normal listening spot? What size is the room?

Either your speakers aren't efficient (< 90dB/echoic), or.. I don't know. I can't listen to my system at 0dB... I'd go deaf! I have the AVR-525 and half power is (conservatively) 35W (probably more like 45-50W) when the volume is at reference of 0dB.

I haven't played with the 2nd zone yet. So, I can't venture a guess where I'm sitting now as to why you can't get the CD working in Zone 2. It has 2 remotes because you may get an A-Bus compatible controller and put it in the second room. Then the 2nd zone remote would send infrared signals over A-Bus over that to the receiver to control 2nd zone features only. What's the "rx"???

I upgraded to Paradigm Reference Eclipse/BP. A little more expensive than your average home theater speakers. I also use a Paradigm Reference CC-450 center and Mirage speakers for surround.
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 106
Registered: 12-2003
Anon: oh, and your JBLs (fronts) are 91dB efficient (probably echoic, meaning they gain efficiency from a room which affects the sound). Your formula isn't quite correct. It's hard to do, but the multipliers are logarithmic. That is that to go from 0dB (reference) to 10dB reference... that's a 10-fold increase. It's too hard to try to discuss. You can look up these things on the web... but basically, it's just trying to tell you what power is required to increase the sound pressure level (SPL) given a certain efficiency of speaker and the distance.

For doing your setup with the AVR-325... follow the direction in EzSet, but use your SPL meter for the measurement. I think their reference is at -10dB with an SPL reading of 80dB (don't quote me... I'm just guessing). Then adjust the channels to get them to the reference sound pressure level (SPL) by using the speaker/channel adjust.
 

Anonymous
 
Hi Geekboy,

I tried by setting bass management to "Indepedent" but it did not allow me to change the settings , it just skips over the speaker option and leaves the config in "---" state.it some time allows only to change center & sub only.

But as I mentioned in my original thread , it allows to configure the crossover frequencies when the speakers are set to "SMALL".

Is there any other setting which basically interdependent on this operation ?

Regards,
HK Owner
(Original thread creater)
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 109
Registered: 12-2003
Anon: yeah, I'm trying to figure out your exact configuration problem. Is this when you have the mode set to Logic 7? Is this in Stereo (2-channel) mode? These settings depend on the DSP mode being used sometimes. For example, Logic 7 doesn't let you change certain things due to the processing requirements. Let me know what processing mode you are in (i.e Dolby Digital or DTS, or Stereo), and what your settings are. All of this matters.
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 110
Registered: 12-2003
Anon (with teh SPL meter): refer to the manual. There's a section on "manual" adjustments using an SPL meter. Your reference sound pressure level will be -75dB "C" weigthing slow.

Then adjust each channel to match that using the pink noise (test tone) generator. Your EzSet remote probably indicated red (too high) because it was 80dB SPL.

I was wrong above... the reference (on the receivers volume) is -15dB and you should be measuring 75dB (with your meter set to C weihgting slow).
 

Anonymous
 
hello, Geekboy:
Thanks for the suggestion. I did set the meter to C -Slow.You're right, 80dB was too high with vol at 0 dB. I lowered it down to -6dB and I got ~ 75dB. If I lowered the vol to -15dB, the SPL read much lower than 75dB.I add +3dB in the center and real channels for movies.
Paradigm is very good and expensive spkrs. You have good knowledge and good taste.Thx, Goosedad

The room is about 15x30. "rx" is abbrev for receiver.
For the 2nd Zone, if I use analog instead of coaxial, then sound will come out from the 2nd zone spkr. Now I know these channels are stereo only.
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 111
Registered: 12-2003
Goosedad (Anon): thanks for the info on the 2nd zone. I haven't tried it yet, but intend to use it for my Whole House Audio (A-Bus). I won't start that project until -- if -- I start my pool project.
 

Anonymous
 
Hi Geekboy,

How do I figure out which mode I am in when I am trying to setup the "Crossover" settings ?

 

New member
Username: Afrogt

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2003
"did set up the 2nd zone. It worked if I put on the tuner (FM) in 2nd zone, if I put on CD (use coax 1), there is no sound in the 2nd zone. Why? The main room works fine. The 2nd zone remote works much the same as the other remote, since I can not control the rx using the 2nd remote from the 2nd zone, why two remotes?"

For 2nd zone you must use analog cables. 2nd zone doesn't recognize digitial inputs. You don't have to change any settings for the main zone, it will automatically look for the analog inputs for zone 2.

When in the same room as the receiver, the small remote will work pretty much the same as the main remote. But if in a separate room with the optional IR link, it will control the volume of the 2nd zone and enable you to switch sources.
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 112
Registered: 12-2003
Anon: you can look at the display and see which mode, or, in the OSD, before going into the Speaker Adjust, look at the Surround Setup menu. See what's checked there (Dolby Digital, DTS, VMax, Logic 7, etc).
 

Anonymous
 
hello,Geekboy & Others:
You guys are great! I learned alot from you comments. Thanks.
One more Q for the 525. Since each channel o/p 70 watts, what is the difference in increasing the main vol(say +3 dB) or increase each channel from the channel adjsutment (-10 dB to +10 dB, default is 0 dB)to +3 dB?
Anon(Goosedad)
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 114
Registered: 12-2003
Goosedad (Anon): +3dB is a "doubling" of power.

It's difficult to come up with an accurate number, but let's say that (for a baseline) when you have the VOLUME setting on the AVR-525 set to 0dB, the receiver is outputting 35-40W per channel (all channels driven).

So let's say that the main volume is at 0dB and ALL the speakers except the CENTER has an adjustment of (0dB). Let's assume that the CENTER has been adjusted to +3dB. According to the math, ALL the channels would be at 35-40W and the CENTER would be receiving 70-80W. (I used the 0dB = 35-40W reference point of the AVR-525 because it's easier to show the doubling. Sometimes, going from -20dB (or something) to -17dB will be LIKE going from 1W to 2W! But, going from -20dB to -11dB is going from 1W to about 8W because it's logarithmic... going from -20dB to -8dB is going from 1W to about 16W... going form -20dB to -5dB is going from 1W to about 32W. (I used that reference because it's close (enough) to the 0dB = 35-40W reference for the AVR-525... in no way is what I write completely accurate).

Interesting stuff indeed.
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 115
Registered: 12-2003
Goosedad (Anon): sorry, I don't know if I really answered the other part of your question. So adjusting the main volume by +3dB is the SAME as setting the adjustment on a channel by +3dB... you've doubled the amount of power being sent to that channel.
 

Anonymous
 
Ok,Geekboy: I used your example. If only the center chan had been adjusted to +3dB (others 0 dB) and the main vol is @ 0dB. The center would get ~70-80W, alright.
Now I increase the main vol to +3dB, the center would get 2 times (70-80)w, but the rx can only o/p 70w/channel, where the power come from? The power don't exist, right? That is the part I don't understand.
One more Q: if the main vol is set to +10dB, that is the max o/p from the rx, then
1. if a single channel is set to 0 dB
or 2. if the same channel is adjusted to +10 dB,
what is the difference?
Goosedad (Anon)
 

New member
Username: Geekboy

Post Number: 117
Registered: 12-2003
Goosedad (Anon): Power reserves. I think I read where the AVR-525 was tested to about 100W at clipping which means it has power reserves.

Albeit, clipping is bad for your speakers. That's when the receiver can't deliver the "dynamic" power for a particular segment. So, the receiver could quite possibly deliver 90W in a extremely short peak (burst), but anything the receiver is most likely going to CLIP part of the sinal! Clipping is a way of the amplifier section protecting itself from damage by the demands that it's certainly not designed to handle.

Your other answers... 1.) the relative volume to the channel is 0dB so it would receive +10dB of the referenced power when the volume is at +10dB. That's like 350-400W (a +10dB increase is 10 times the power) which the power supply obviously can't produce, so you'd be certainly at CLIPPING, and 2.) the relative volume to the channel is +10dB so it would be at +20dB when the volume is at +10dB. Again, for #2, this is a ridiculous load for the amplifier section and it will clip the peaks that are outside of a set limit (the limit of the amplifier).

Basically, the amplifier will protect itself when it gets to a certain point. I don't know where the point is, but for the AVR-525 (in multi-channel mode) it could be around 100W or so. Mind you, that at 100W, the amplifier is probably > 1.0% THD (total harmonic distortion)... so the sound "quality" is starting to go anyway.
 

Anonymous
 
Hi Geekboy,

I contacted HK and they were very helpful , this is what I got from them ,

"Your receiver is working as it should, by only allowing you to adjust the crossover settings, when the speakers are set to "Small". When you have the speakers set to "Large" they are receiving a completely full-range signal, from 20Hz to 20kHz. The subwoofer will be able to be adjusted, but, the speakers will get the complete signal. When they are set to "Small" you are able to adjust the amount of bass the speakers are going to receive."

Thanks !
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