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Archive through September 29, 2004

 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 392
Registered: Apr-04
Gentlemen,

Very lively thread and debate. I will revisit it when I'm not so tired and can have a coherent thought. This week has found me being held captive alternately by Mr. Gates and Mr. B. Not sure which indentured service is worse but am leaning towards Mr B since I at least get a paycheck from Mr. Gates.

Despite the delivery last Saturday of the new Mac, today is the first day I've been able to plug it in and, so far, no love per above post. The week has been filled with overtime at the office followed by evenings of painting walls and the dreaded furniture shopping - which has left me depressed - and that was before the Mac failed to show me some love. The furniture I like I cannot afford. The furniture I can afford is imported from China. As I live in a region steeped in furniture making tradition, it just seems wrong to buy furniture imported from China carrying labels such as "American Traditions". Alas, I may be forced to exercise what my wallet allows and give the middle finger to my conscience.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 393
Registered: Apr-04
Holy cow! I wonder if nun has something to do with the soundless Mac??
 

SACDude
Unregistered guest
The sound of silence. Ah, yes. The good Ms. Cabriolet suffers from it - and yet Mr. Vigne remembers it as being magical, as in first-sight experiences of Santa Fe at Christmas. Well, then, on with the philosophical discussion!
Mr. Vigne would dissemble to the maximum, and have us all believe that he sits there in the center of American Wealth - without being distorted or polluted by his environment. Good for him! How few of us can honestly claim that.
On with your technical help, please! A woman in need is a woman to be pitied, because the "fair sex" usually out-thinks the mundane male three-to-one. She needs help? It must be a true crisis! To the fore, gents!!!!!!
Ah, Mr. Vigne - one gets led around by what one worships, or aspires to in life. Think on that.
Away to some fine victuals and a tad of the ole grape, while watching on television the travails of relatives in Florida, where hurricanes appear to be everyday nemeses!
Caveat emptor, all - with thanks.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1543
Registered: Dec-03
yo ghia sometimes there are tape monitor buttons
on systemns and with that on you will get no sound
unless you have something hooked to the ins and outs
of the tape area.

try hooking up a dvd player or cd to the aux input then
look for any tape monitor buttons try all positions on them.


just a thought!

i've seen it before or a mute?
 

SACDude
Unregistered guest
Re-reading (carefully) above columns leads me to a small addition to my earlier word-production.
Corporate America has ONLY itself in mind when creating products. "We" only exist if we purchase enough product, and are unable to present a viable legal obstacle to their proliferation.
And Adam Smith was, in young-person terms, a "wuss." IMHO - is that right? (not sure)
 

SACDude
Unregistered guest
To Ms. Cabriolet. Is there a "reset" button or hole into which you poke a wire? There was such on one of my earlier amplifiers, and it actually worked! Hoping for you. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 394
Registered: Apr-04
Thanks, Kegger. It's not the tape monitor. In fact, I've pushed those buttons on and off while trying the CD connected to the tape monitors. I set this one up exactly like the last Mac so I don't think I've done anything wrong. Except for maybe buying it. Sorry, that's just frustration rearing its ugly head. I've tried multiple sources, multiple inputs, multiple cable interconnects, multiple speakers, multiple speaker wires. Nothing. It's a damn shame. This one is in pristine condition, no broken glass, no scratches but, unfortunately, no sound. Could a bad fuse cause this? There's a fuse at the back near the power cord.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 395
Registered: Apr-04
Well, SACDude was right about " the "fair sex" usually out-thinks the mundane male three-to-one."

I figured it out without any help from the mundane male. On the back of the damaged amp, I noticed the pre-amp outputs had jumpers in them. So, I took those off the damaged amp and put them on the new one and voila! Sound! Jan, do you need the jumpers on the amp I'm sending to you?

I believe today is the first time I've posted since SACDude started posting here. Welcome!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1544
Registered: Dec-03
glad you got it ghia.

if i'd known that unit had those it would have been my first sugestion!

sorry very few units have those and i don't know your unit.

but hey as long as you got it thats all that matters.

and no jan won't need those. if he doesn't have any all it takes
is a piece of metal which he can make.

just in case you don't know what those are for.

they connect the preamp section to the amp section in the unit,
so you could use either part seperatly.

glad to hear your alright! happy macin!

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2124
Registered: Dec-03
Well done, Ghia. You got there. I was puzzling about where to start from "no sound". Seems the HiFi News guys swear by McIntosh amps, too. I missed how it came about that you got a new one. Was it on this thread?

There is a big and interesting discussion brewing, as you see. I do not think this format of posting on a forum can sustain discussion for long. I have promised to post back on several things which will be ruthless changes of topic when they come up. So many things to say. If I may, your coming in with the problems of no time and dissatisfaction with what you can afford sort of underlines Jan's point and I think mine. Modern societies place power with those who stimulate our dissatisfactions, to get us to spend. So we work harder to get less happy. I don't think the problem is unique to America. I have this old-fashioned idea that individuals can and should choose, and this is the only antidote. My grumblings about hidden agendas in consumer electronics are written with this in mind. Yet they seem to touch a raw nerve somewhere.

Let me draw your attention to my post, above, Friday, September 24, 2004 - 01:18 pm. I somehow think you would be fascinated by that DVD, especially after the Mahler debate on "Discoveries".

I watched the other part. "Aslya" by Thomas Adés. Whew. It is surreal. Sonically and visually fascinating. Percussion effects include slamming the lid on a piano keyboard, beating tin cans, dropping sounding gongs into water. I kept waiting for Pink Floyd's inflatable pig. It did not show up, but it would not, to me, have seemed out of place. I'll give it another go. One can always learn. The Mahler 5 (main item) is just gorgeous.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2125
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

I wondered what the jump leads were for. Thanks. That is a good idea. All amps should have that.

SACDude,

Please, what is a "wuss"...?

Ghia got there by having another amp to compare. It is so good to have at least two of everything, so you can swap and see what difference it makes. Half of this forum is questions from people who have a complex system they cannot experiment with, to work things out for themselves. That is another reason for holding on to your old gear, apart from it often being better than the new stuff.

New trick. Off-line someone told me how to get iTunes to send DTS to a TOS-link input from Airport Express. My local shops do not have, and have never heard of, Tos-link to minijack adapters, so I cannot try it. Apple sell an overpriced "connection kit" from Harmon Kardon (can never spell that).

To repeat, "The industry" fears networking most of all. I think they should. That analogue-only connection in DVD-A/SACD is there to prohibit copying, no more, no less. I do hope the industry discovers people can't press their own LPs, and that is a way to go..... BTW SACDude, I think it is not the electronics that makes SACD secure, it is encryption, a software issue. I doubt it can be cracked. Even if it can, there will not be one key for all SACDs and players. The Denon x910 does processing (bass management etc) on LPCM, and converts SACD into LPCM before doing so, so I would think that is the thing to do: intercept the LPCM out of a Denon, and rip that. But we would all be better off if the files were in LPCM in the first place. I do believe that.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Sorry, I was having dinner with some friends who invited themselves over. No problem, there is always pasta ready to fix if they supply the bread. Who's counting carbs? Farfalle rules!


"Mr. Vigne would dissemble to the maximum, and have us all believe that he sits there in the center of American Wealth - without being distorted or polluted by his environment. Good for him! How few of us can honestly claim that."


No, I have been swayed by my surroundings. But I live in a historic district here in Dallas. One of the first in the nation to gain preservation status, which is unusual for Dallas. This city's attitude is "new and improved", thirty years old and a building is ready to be torn down. The historic districts in Dallas all sit on the South side. The Money in Dallas is all to the North of Downtown. To make a living I had to drive to another part of Dallas than where I live and, in so doing, twice a day I drove through areas that many citizens of Dallas don't want to know exist. The section of Dallas that I live in is called Oak Cliff. To those who have never been South of LBJ Highway, Oak Cliff is where they find the bodies on Sunday morning. To those of us who prefer a house that looks different from all our neighbor's homes, Oak Cliff is one of the most attractive parts of Dallas with 100 foot tall Pecans an Oaks in front of 5,000 sqaure foot homes that once belonged to the finest citizens of Dallas, people who had schools and libraries named for them. But I don't have to go far from home to see those less fortunate than I am.
This is a city where the divisions of wealth are quite obvious no matter what part you are in. I sold to those at the upper end of comfortable for 25 years and I had many nights when the drive home was uncomfortable. I'm sure I've mentioned it here on the forum before but I found it very difficult to talk about $5,000 phono cartridges and then, thirty minutes later, drive past an apartment house where the young mother with her children looked as if she had no idea where her next meal would come from. And I have had my experiences where I can see first hand how fortunes can reverse in the blink of an eye. I am also aware that I talk a much better game than I play. There are so many that work to make things better for everyone every day while I mostly sit and complain. I have some degree of self awareness that comes from being near death several times in my life. That term "technically dead" is a rather odd phrase when you find yourself still breathing in a week or so. But I can fool myself as easily as the next person when I want to. I own the McIntosh amps not because I had the great fortune to lead a lifestyle that could accommodate luxuries but, instead, by merely being in the right place at the right time.

"Ah, Mr. Vigne - one gets led around by what one worships, or aspires to in life. Think on that."

And if what you aspire to is what you worship you become blind to all else. Or at least that has been my experience.


Ghia - glad you got things figured out. I doubt I would have thought to tell you to look for those jumpers as the person that sold the amp to you must have known they were missing. It was not as RatBastard stupid as your first seller but this was a matter of a small note to tell you the jumpers weren't in place. I hope the Mac gives you some "quiet time". Enjoy.




 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


I await the technical defintion of "wuss".


The little I know of Mr. Smith, I would say he wasn't exactly a "wuss" but more someone who had not found his aspirations at that point in his life.



 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2126
Registered: Dec-03
Rick,

"Out of the box interconnects??? Please say it isn't so John! (LOL)". Well, I have them on system 2. Can't tell the difference, really. I suppose I could get obessive and set up double-blind trials etc. I keep getting distracted by the music. Here's the back of my system 1 receiver. If I bought "high-end" cables for that lot, it would cost more than the house. This was taken before Airport Express, it is now even more complicated. I feed that into tape monitor, the only input left that is not on the front panel. I feel that life is too short to worry about cables.
Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 396
Registered: Apr-04
Kegger, I'm 2-0. How are you doing?

JohnA,

My musings regarding dissatisfaction of what I can afford must have been coincidental as I haven't made it through the recents posts yet. Saving it for tomorrow when, hopefully, my mind won't be so fogged. But, to comment on your statement "we work harder to get less happy"...how very true and so much of it is societal pressure brought on by corporate marketing. It is something I've been thinking about for a couple of years and it factors into my purchase decisions more frequently now. Your philosophy " individuals can and should choose" is right on. Unfortunately, this is sometimes more expensive. I would prefer to support the independent, family owned, local furniture manufacturer, Robert Bergelin Company but a bed from there costs as much as an entire bedroom suit from the big companies that import their goods. Still, their quality is so superior it may be more painful financially in the short term but the furniture will last a lifetime and may be more cost effective over the long run. Also, agree about "hidden agendas" which are most definitely a part of consumer electronics and the computer industry.

Intriguing insights on the Mahler 5 DVD. If I recall correctly, you were sceptical over Mahler's Adagietto being a "love song" to Alma and thought of it more as an ego trip? Have you changed your perspective? :-) I will definitely pick this up. Of course, I still have to put my surround system back together....can you believe I have not listened to it in 3 weeks?!

The "new" MA6200 purchase was mentioned much earlier in this thread but I didn't mention it much until I was able to get a settlement on the damaged amp. Found the new one on Audiogon and got it for the same amount I paid for the first one. It is gorgeous! Not a single scratch, the glass is pristine, the knobs are shiny, the chrome is flawless. And the sound!

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2127
Registered: Dec-03
That post must now appear as a total non sequitur. Sorry. It was not that when I started it. Mr Vigne on Dallas etc. was far more interesting.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 397
Registered: Apr-04
Main Entry: wuss
Pronunciation: 'wus
Variant(s): also wus·sy /'wu-sE/
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural wuss·es also wus·sies
Etymology: origin unknown
: WIMP
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2128
Registered: Dec-03
...as is Ghia. This thread is getting tangled. I need high-end cables, well screened, to minimize cross-talk.

"Have you changed your perspective?"

Yes! Part of it was the interview with Simon Rattle. I won't spoil it. He descibes the Adagietto as something you cannot post on this forum, I should think. Apparently Alma worked as a copyist, transcribing the individual parts from Mahler's score, and she alone knew what he meant. I can only keep my cynical guard up for so long. Shame she dumped him. After that, they should have emigrated to Pennsylvania and had twelve children.

Thanks for the comments, Ghia. All well received, and appreciated.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2129
Registered: Dec-03
Thanks again Ghia. Adam Smith was no wimp, or wuss. "The Wealth of Nations" is a book that shaped the world we live in. He believed that any honest transaction in a free market, motivated purely by individual self-interest, nevertheless works for the public good, as if guided by an invisible hand. My complaint is we do not have his free market. We've never tried it, really. Too many vested interests. It's a bit like what others think about communism: "great idea in theory, but it doesn't work". Actually, I always thought it was a crazy idea. Maybe that is the other issue, apart from surround sound, where I part company with Jan. And score a bit more to right on the Political Compass. Though not so much, from Jan's recent posts. I think Jan and Mrs A would see eye-to-eye on most things.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Kegger - The "sound" of capacitors. Why not ask me what I think of Eastern Religions?
I remember reading the article In "Audio" magazine back in the '70's that first brought capacitors to the point of being discussed rather than just dismissed as one of those hairbrained audiophile myths. Here it is:

http://www.capacitors.com/picking_capacitors/pickcap.htm

It was well over my head in a lot of its technical aspects but it made for great reading. It explained why some of the ideas I was hearing might have some validity. And since "Audio" was one of the "respected" magazines of its time (and the one of the bunch that actually offered articles that informed the reader) once the "sound" of capacitors was given the official blessing it became OK to think there might be a reason why components sounded the way they did.
We have, on this forum, discussed the sound of Mcintosh components. One of the reasons Mac was not considered serious high end equipment through most of the 80's and early 90's was their insistence on doing things their way. Mac was slow to change to poly caps and metal film resitors and the MA6100 and MA6200 that are the "new old stock" amps of the forum have push clip type speaker connectors, not something that needs a torque wrench to tighten. But you see the glowing responses to the sound of those amps. Mac wasn't using any fancy caps at that time and yet the product they turned out still holds up to some of the best of today's gear in terms of musical enjoyment. In the most recent issue of "Stereophile" they have their "Recommended Components" and in the Tube Amp section the reissue of the McIntosh MC275 is graded a Class A amplifier. This amp has new parts with new style caps and resistors and so forth but the amp was designed in the early 1960's. Not to wave the flag of McIntosh (I would think some of you are getting tired of hearing about it) but, to me, this shows there must be more to the sound of an amplifier than any one part. Great design is still the key to great sound. Your Dynaco ST70's show that also.
When I acquired my MC240's in the mid 80's they were dead stock units, they both had factory tubes still in them. After listening to them for several months I decided to upgrade the parts and started with caps and internal wiring. I got the best parts I could find at the time and made the changes. I was working with three guys that had been around Mac for twenty years at that point and they had all owned Mac tubes. Two were skeptical but interested and the third was a "it all sounds the same" believer. When I finished the first round of parts changes I had removed the old orange drops and paper in oil caps. I hooked everything up in the front of the store and let the amps play for the day. All three were amazed at what they heard as an improvement in the sound. Was it just going from parts that were twenty years old to new parts, maybe, but the Macs had checked out fine before I did anything to them; no parts had shown they had drifted enough to measure. So I became convinced that the passive parts of a piece of equipment will obviously affect the sound if you listen with an open mind.
As to the sound of "old" style parts it goes back to our discussions of "old school" tube sound and "new school" sound and my stated believes about accuracy in home audio. I have had many tubed pieces of gear in my system that utilized P.I.O. caps and so forth and the ones that were good were really good. As I stated in the recent posts on tube gear elsewhere in the forum, the sound of a Marantz 7C pre amp is so intoxicating you will find it hard to turn it off for the night even if you have lived with it for several years. Vocals just won't let you not smile and go along for the ride. When I hooked up the ST70's I listened to the Elvis piece I sent you and it just moved in a way no Solid State gear I have in the house right now could even begin to manage. Those amps were basically stock with forty year old parts.
Are those pieces of equipment accurate? Well, that's in the judgement of the listener. I've said I wouldn't want a pair of Klipschorns on a bet but I have to admit those speakers do things no acoustic suspension speaker can come close to doing. They have too many flaws for my taste but they can run rings around most anything else in terms of dynamics both big and small. With a good tube amp they are a hard system to ignore.
So I think you can find what you want out there with any part if you know what you're listening for. And there is no way for anyone else to tell you what you are hearing is wrong.
Paper in Oil caps have become the newest "new old stock" items as, like todays tubes, the best of what is produced today is not as good as much of what was made a few decades ago. I'm not saying that because I think everything old is great but because, like tubes, when you make things in larger quantities your average quality is likely to go up. P.I.O. caps are a small scale production item today and they have, like tubes, much of the sound of the "old school" parts but lack that final bit of magic.
I can see where you could find the old style caps very appealing, particularly the way you have your amps running. You get to decide how your system sounds and if it makes you interested in the music then that should be enough to say this is better. I would guess the information you are getting on caps is good and I would only say you can get confused as to what you want just because it is different than what you have. Our conversations prove you are sensible about your system (buying twenty tube power amps and 150 tube pre amps in the past month not withstanding). Try a few things and see where it leads. You haven't even touched triodes much, let alone SET's or OTL's. Play around and have some fun. That is part of this hobby that so many forget. If you find the music more easily with one technology then I would say that you have made a lot of progress. Maybe you'll find that listening on the original speakers of the day is appealing also. There's a world of things to explore and you might as well be one of those who want to find out why things are what people claim.
I can't give much advice about try this cap or this resistor. That is like asking which wire should I use on my subwoofer. I once stated on this forum that knowing the sound of cables is like knowing God. Everyone has to search it out for themselves, but it is the search that should be fun and interesting.
I don't know if that comes close to what you were asking me to address. As I said, what you asked is a really big subject. And as we have discussed here, the differences are really small in the scheme of all things. Don't get lost. Follow the light, it is your friend, eh, Mr. Holmes?







 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


John - It's getting late here in Big D and I need some sleep but I can't recall any "ism" that isn't like the first issue of "Spiderman". They make a great read but it could never happen in the real world.



 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1545
Registered: Dec-03
jan your rendition of caps and resistors is right up their
with my findings!

..........................

ghia 1-1 in both but 2nd place in the 1 that points overall wins.
so i feel pretty good about the 1 for points but
the other picking 11th 5 times in 12 rounds is
really hurting me, at qb excspecially. and that has 12 teams in it.
yah picking second to last 5 times really hurts!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1546
Registered: Dec-03
Caps/resistors and the sounds they can produce: "or reduce"

Well I don't know if any remembers or maybe I just told Jan.

But when I got the first golden tube audio se-40 amp it sounded darn good but had
All this noise, crackles and pops and what not. That didn't really bother me as my
Plan was to rebuild it with the kits from soniccraft because they are suppose to address
http://www.soniccraft.com/upgrades/se40.htm
All the known issues with these amps with upgraded parts being in value and quality.
After the upgrades about 75% of the amplifier is new and upgraded from stock.
Put all new tubes in, rebiased the system, put all back together then it was time to test.
First impressions were cool, alright no more noises, the clicks and pops where all gone.
The bass was tighter the highs were more extended but something was missing, really
It just didn't sound like a tube amp anymore "many strive for that" after talking with
Jeff from soniccraft "great guy" that was the design of the kits. 1: upgrade all parts and
There tolerances to exceed their needed values "as apposed to under value parts from the factory". 2: improve the overall sound of the amp as close as possible to flat and linear
Without any of the exaggerated tube characteristics "audiophile amp". Well that wasn't exactly what I was looking for. I wanted all the new parts changed for reliability and the extended bass end treble was great but I also wanted my tube sound.

So I start doing more research "some of my own trial and error, info from others and good old fashion reading" and come to the realization as what Jan had said about old and new tube sound. It's mainly from passive parts in the preamps and amps. "Resistors and capacitors".

Well the person I bought the amp from had a friend who had one that was 1 serial # away from the unit I got. So I figured ok this amp sounds great in the bass area "where tube amps generally lack" and I've already done the upgrades I'm not going to take them out. So I got the second amp then went ahead and purchased the first of the three kits from soniccraft to get all the resistors and caps that need to be replaced in the amp for reliability and decided to mod the rest of the amp myself to try and get the luscious tube sound I was craving but still retain the good stuff the upgrades had brought me from the first one. I changed three of the six power supply caps with the three larger ones that were removed from the first amp "the kit replaces all six with larger ones then the 3 larger originals" then replaced the 2 bypass caps with polypropylene versus ceramic then started messing with the negative bias, bypass, feedback and output sections with different types and quality of capacitors also older ones form some of the other tube gear I now have. So far I believe in replacing the outdated resistors with new quality ones and feel capacitors make a bigger change on sound.

My findings so far seem to be that the older equipment has the sound it has mainly because
Of the capacitors used. The same goes for newer equipment. In my opinion new or old equipment can be made to sound like the other with capacitor changes "to a degree"

So I am trying to build a hybrid of sorts, newer parts in the critical circuits and older tech in some of the signal path areas. So far what I've done and heard is incredible. The new amp that I'm tweaking runs the mid and highs while the first amp runs the bass in a biamped configuration plus a solid-state amp running subs from 60hz on down.

Next on the list is trying nos paper in oil capacitors "the ones used in many vintage gear"
If my theory is correct those are going to make the amp produce even more of the luscious midrange the older tube gear creates. But with the newer parts in the amp as well still retain most of the speed and some of the accuracy.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1547
Registered: Dec-03
yes jan quality transformers are a must too and also affect the sound.

the ones in the se-40's are suppose to be excelent as
golden tube audio was an offshoot from a quality transformer company!

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1548
Registered: Dec-03
jan.

"When I acquired my MC240's in the mid 80's they were dead stock units, they both had factory tubes still in them. After listening to them for several months I decided to upgrade the parts and started with caps and internal wiring. I got the best parts I could find at the time and made the changes. I was working with three guys that had been around Mac for twenty years at that point and they had all owned Mac tubes. Two were skeptical but interested and the third was a "it all sounds the same" believer. When I finished the first round of parts changes I had removed the old orange drops and paper in oil caps"

was that the extent of the mods and what do you think of my ramblings
on the cap and resistor post?


 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2133
Registered: Dec-03
Great stuff, Kegger. I am more and more convinced you would enjoy vinyl.... Just to reply to Jan a few posts back.

Scepticism. Skepticism. Call it what you like, it seems to come naturally to Old Dogs.
 

SACDude
Unregistered guest
In my opinion Adam Smith was a wuss because he was all about sky-high theory and little fact-based idea back-ups. Though from what I read, the good Mr. John A. may try to bash my concept into tiny pieces?
On a more solid bit of discussion, please. I have a Nad receiver, which seems a fine piece of equipment - but now have suddenly found myself the recipient of a rather new Onkyo 701 receiver - due to a friend dying and leaving it to me. A sad windfall for me, certainly.
My question, though, is: which of the two units do you more electronics-oriented folk consider the better of the two? I rather like the mid-range of the Nad - but the Onkyo has more power per channel, and is newer. I have NO need for two amplifiers, so which one should I donate to the local Stereo club for donation to a worthy but poorer soul?
I have heard that the Onkyo units have a "brighter" sound - though for the life of me I don't understand how one amplifier can sound brighter or deeper or warmer than another.
Any ideas welcome, with thanks.
 

Holmes
Unregistered guest
"Follow the pale blue lights, they are friends".

Elementary my dear Vigne, once one becomes aware.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 489
Registered: Dec-03
John,

Thank you. I prefer wary or caution to skepticism.
Cheers!

Thank you Mr. Vigne and Mr. Holmes!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2134
Registered: Dec-03
SACDude,

I would not dream of attempting bash your concept to pieces. I've only ever been able to dip into the Wealth of Nations, looking for the juicy bits. It is not easy going. I seem to recall it has hundreds of pages on the price of wheat in various parts of Scotland etc.

Sorry to hear about the the sad windfall. If you have them both you can try them and see which you prefer. If you have them side by side, then you have no need of "sky-high theory and little fact-based idea back-ups". I have an NAD T760 myself and it is pretty good. Onkyo tend to be more hi-tech and they are venturing into networking, servers, and WiFi, on receivers, I recall. I am not sure what "brighter" sound is, either - do you hear anything you would describe in that way? See Definitions and descriptions. You could also try the "Audio>Receivers" topic which is very lively and has people with views on these and other brands. Personally, I would keep them both, if they have equal capabilities, features etc. You never know when you might have to ask "Is it the receiver?"

Holmes,

I am beginning to think I shall have to catch up on Conan Doyle in order to follow the literary allusions here. I am waiting for the DVD.

Rick,

Give me skepticism every time.

Cheers!
 

`J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


DUDE - "In my opinion Adam Smith was a wuss because he was all about sky-high theory and little fact-based idea back-ups."

By that logic "Mein Kamp" would make Hitler a wuss. Arguable, but I don't think even John could defend that point of view.


There is an alomost reverence for NAD among audiophiles. It is well deserved in someways being they introduced a concept of designing and building audio in a fashion that was lacking in American audio back in the 70's with few exceptions (the most notable being the Advent reciever of the mid 70's - 15 watts with one of the best phono sections [designed by Thomlison Hollman] ever put into a reciever and pre out main in jacks for upgrades when Advent made their power amp which they unfortunately never got around to doing). But on the other hand NAD was one of the first audio companies to be based in one country while their product was entirely manufactured in another for purely financial reasons. Which should we celebrate?
One thing that has kept NAD in the mainstream of audio has been a consistent "sound" that has changed little over the past three decades. Few companies can claim that honor and most that do are well beyond the price of the NAD line. Onkyo has been a company that has gone from a good recommendation in their early days in the US to a company that has seen the mass market dollars and has aspired to what they admire most. I would say keep the NAD, particularly if you find something you like about the sound of the unit. Donate the Onkyo, particularly if the only reason to keep it is more power (which old dogs will tell you is inconsequential all things equal) and that it is "new and improved".
It is a sad but true consequence that the term brighter has come to mean, in the world of Big Box Store recievers, they have made the unit more cheaply. When the most important aspect of your design is to have the "best" specs and the most gee-gaws on the front panel (blue lights can decieve, The Nun knows this all too well) you loose sight of what makes an audio unit sound good. Suddenly smaller transformers, less discrete circuitry, less expensive output transistors (that was hard to type, it makes my hands shake) and so on fall to the wayside in favor of the N.A.I.'d circuit to which you can apply an appellation and particularly one which can have an acronym, such as Turbo User Ramming Device or T.U.R.D. Onkyo hs long ago abandoned the specialty retailers who used to hook it up to speakers and let clients listen and decide and has gone to Big Box displays where the "salesperson" shouts the features at you so you can hear them over the roar of fifty other systems playing and the cash registers (how old I feel using that term [my first real job was in a neighborhood market that had a register with a hand crank on the side and made a wonderful sound as the drawer slid open to reveal the wooden dividers for change and bills; we didn't need no stinkin' barcodes] raking in the C.A.S.H. [Customer Assisted Stupidity Helper]). 'Tis a pity.


Kegger - I think you've caught the general drift of what has been happening in audio for the past few generations of thinking. That great bastion of high end anointment, "The Absolute Sound", has always held that the only good audio gear is that which allows the listener to essentially recreate the listening experience in their own room. That's all well and good but, (once more) as I have said, no one really agrees on how they hear the original. If we could then we would all own the same system. Period. We can't even tell each other what we hear and make certain we have communicated the experience to the listener with accuracy.
An aside - Our Dallas Symphony opened its season last week with a Beethoven piece. Doesn't matter which one. The newspaper critic made a complaint that the conductor hurried the performance of the first movement and therefore changed the composer's intent which subsequently distracted the critic throughout the rest of the piece, this despite, by his own admission, the added drama it lent to the reading. Letter's to the editor followed with justifications from other listener's for the choices made by someone they are not. But the writers obviously saw the effect upon the piece differently than the critic. So we can't even agree on how fast a piece of music should be played. Letters lambasting our local critics are regular features in the Dallas paper and usually begin, "I don't know what concert so and so was at but ...". And this certainly is not restricted to Dallas.
So what is accuracy if not something that makes the listener connect more readily with the music and holds that attention. As they say, "Always leave them wanting more." The audio designers of the past few decades have struggled with the idea of how to bridge that gap between what sounds good, what will sell, what will get good reviews and (to a sometimes totally ignored concept of) how much will it cost to produce. Many an audio reviewer has lamented the disposal of an older piece of audio, such as an ST70, Mac or Marantz tubes, original Quads and so on only to obtain something they felt was more accurate. I gave up on most of that quite a while back when I found what I liked and it satisfied my needs. (I'm a real old dog in that respect as I keep my 20 year old car and, if I had my way, would be driving my '72 Chevelle, not out of sentimentality or a belief they are always better, but because I hate to get rid of something that has brought me satisfaction.) So I think you should make your system do what you wnat it to do. I'll make one suggestion to you. I've seen many who get into the modification game and they loose sight of that reality of real music. I think before you go into much more you should find a piece of music being played in a live venue where there is no amplification. Go listen to somebody play for the sake of making music. As John said the joy of playing for someone else to enjoy is something that often is lost in the world of audio. To hear the sound of an instrument that is not there to impress you with its soundstaging or imaging or tightness of bass is something I think everyone needs on a more regular basis. I know you listen to rock mostly but find some type of music that you can listen to where the sound isn't lost in a crowd of people or mashed into a stack of speakers that fit on the stage. Just go listen to something then come back and go at your mods with a fresh perspective. It makes things sound different at home more that you might think.

Resistors are one of the lower level items that make an audible difference in your electronics. Capacitors are high on the list. When I first started upgrading (?) my amps I did the caps and wiring with silver solder. I listened like that for several months and then proceeded to change the resistors and other passive parts. The amps have 90% different parts now but I didn't change the circuit other than to simplify some switching that wasn't in the signal path. But Mac held all the original critical resistors to 1% and the caps to 5% which, in 1964, was quite an achievement for audio equipment. So the sound of the amps didn't change so much as just open up and get better at the sutlety of the music. There was a much more profound change to be made with the tubes themself. But there I can accomplish that change in a matter of minutes where anything I do to the caps is going to take a while longer.
Bottom line for me is choose good design and good construction (not to knock the G.T.A.'s because it is a problem that has existed in audio for quite a while but why put in underated caps and resistors? The cost of a 1/2 watt resistor vs. a 1/4 watt resistor is mere pennies when you buy in quantity.) then look at the parts quality as an indication of how serious the company is about their product. You can throw high priced parts at something (an 80's Jaguar?) but not make a better product. In tubes I consider the transformers to be the most important part that I am unlikely to change (unless I'm talking vintage where a transformer may need a change due to age), then the caps, particularly in the power supply and signal path, and then the resistors, wire and other passive parts. But if you listen to what the designer had in mind with the original design (many people consider the ST70 to be just right as is from the factory) you can hear the music through any really great piece of audio no matter what parts are in there.

There I would turn this back to Rick and Ghia to say what they think about their Macs with less than "perfect" parts. ("Less than 'perfect' parts", sounds like a body image problem or something doesn't it?)





 

SACDude
Unregistered guest
Trust a "union guy" to help me decide on the subtle variants involved in choice of a receiver. This man - a member of our area stereo-lovers' club - also works as a high-end (and highly-paid) sound engineer for McCormick Place - the giant convention hall in Chicago - and at several area concert halls. He has forgotten more about electronics than I shall ever learn.
At any rate - following an early lunch, the chap came over and literally tore apart my setup. Then, he proceeded to string about five miles of wire, with switches and lights and I don't know what else. I began to have fear that he would blow a fuse - no, excuse me, breaker.
We then alternated receivers - don't ask how - to compare them. I will have to say that, with the FM, there was little difference. But, with the aging Philips SACD player, the differences became clearer.
My new and beloved B & W 705 speakers seem to "do" much better with power. They sound rather lifeless at very low listening levels.
With that in mind, the power produced by the Onkyo seemed to make them come alive more, though I'm hopeless in trying to define "coming alive." After nearly an hour of listening, both my friend and I decided that the Onkyo was a better amplifier, given my speakers and room size and setup.
Therefore, I let him take the NAD (which must weigh 50 pounds!!!) to the club, for distribution to some needy music-lover.
The unit was labeled T742, and I understand that it only had 60 or so watts per channel, versus the 100 on the Onkyo.
Does the Onkyo sound "brighter?" Well, I couldn't speak to that, but the high frequencies tend to come through better on the B & Ws, for whatever reason. And the Onkyo tuner seems much more sensitive than the NAD.
If you are wondering, the stereo is in a room roughly 16 by 20 feet - heavily carpeted and with several large Oriental rugs hanging on plaster walls. I live in an old building - built like a fortress - which allows me to boost the volume at times without fear of bringing out homicidal tendencies in the neighboring units.
My friend says that my "inter-connects" need an upgrade, but my 10-gauge speaker wire is fine. Well! That's good to know!
Oh, yes - the other stereo gear that I got already went to the club - a Sony CD/DVD player and some Polk speakers - not sure of the model.
Now, I look forward to a new CD/DVD player around the Holidays. I hope to spend less than $600 for it, and eagerly await the new models as they come out this autumn.
PS - Hitler actually was a wuss in his young, paper-hanging days. It was not until he became politically active and had "boosters" that his egomaniacal traits emerged in public. I suppose you could compare Smith's tomes with "Mein Kampf" though the paralels escape me - with respect, Mr. Vigne.
And oh,yes - I have a rather intelligent friend who purchased a stereo unit ONLY because it had fine, blue lights on the display. Frankly, I don't know what brand - but it is BLUE!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2138
Registered: Dec-03
Just to say that, until 1989, half the people in the world lived under political systems that explicitly acknowledged their debt to Mr Marx and Mr Lenin, with sky-high theory and little fact-based idea back-ups.

Mr H, in contrast, was a loon who stood at the apex of a triangle; he held power because all beneath disclaimed personal responsibility or were shot. The former were the wusses, surely. And who know if AH wasn't great at interior decor. Gandhi understood where power really resides, in individuals having the courage to say "no".

Turbo User Ramming Device. Priceless. As is everything written by JV.

Finest back-handed compliment I've ever received: "but I don't think even John could defend that point of view". Thanks, Jan!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


I agree, in those early days after W.W.I, Hitler was a wussy and that is giving him the benefit of a consonant. My argument went to the extension of action vs. ideals expressed in a book. Both thought their ideals were for the betterment of the people and both fell short of reality by a high slider out of the strike zone. Hitler's just happened to be up under the chin of the Jewish people. Smith's reliance upon "natural" laws and motivations was not the same as Hitler's who agitated for demonstrable action. Please correct me if I am wrong about my ideas. I know little about Smith (Catholic schools did not favor his brand of economics I suppose) and have never fully understood Germany in the 20's and 30's other that antiSemitism was rampant not only in Germany but in most other parts of the world and particularly represented in the U.S. by men like Henry Ford. (I am a Theatre major who knows Bertold Brecht and Kurt Weill
(http://www.midwinter.com/beyond/lyrics/allsonglyricssortedbytitle.html

and

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/doughoekstra/soldierswife.htm

and their group's distaste for Hitler.) But I see neither Smith nor Hitler having any more than "sky high" ideals (if you wish to give that much to Hitler) and both tried to convince with "little fact-based idea back-ups." I see one as a wuss and the other as a bully. One sought to make people think while the other wanted action however misled.


By the way, what did you teach and where?


And I sold many expensive systems based on the fact you could not see it at all.



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
(http://www.midwinter.com/beyond/lyrics/allsonglyricssortedbytitle.html


Please check "Cannon Song". I thought that link might make it through but obviously did not.

No problem, John. Always happy to support you.



 

Holmes
Unregistered guest
My Dear JohnA.,

Do not seek the answer from the author who's words brought me to life. You will find the meaning in my post under DEFINITIONS dated 9/15.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


"And who know if AH wasn't great at interior decor."

It did not go unnoticed.



 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1549
Registered: Dec-03
yes jan I am quite aware of going to far and trying to hard
to get something perfect. "gotcha" thanks.

Like I said right now i'm very very happy with the performance
of these amplifiers. but there are a couple more caps i want to try.
"if i don't try them for myself i'll never know what they sound like"

I chose these amps for the glowing reviews they get from owners.
if you do a search for these amps people just love the sound
and there are many testimoniels to the upgrades at soniccraft making
them sound better plus extending there life. also
the people who mod them mention many times how easy they are
to work on. often the transformers are mentioned with the best available.

I'm sure you have seen many many mod/upgrades and
at $300 for 75% of the amp is unheard of. most of the time
even subtle upgrades are at least $1000. so for a tech guy like myself
I believe they are a bargain.

to get something like your macs it's anywhere from
$1500-$5000 each then you don't know if the passive parts need or
should have upgrades.

I feel getting both amps and all the upgrades for about
$1300 total is excelent.


when these babies are done I don't think I could get anything like
them or better without spending at least $5000

so i'm very happy with your enthusiasm and the local hifi store
that I got into tubes.

they are just to easy to work on!




 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2140
Registered: Dec-03
Holmes,

"Just follow the glow of the soft blue lights. They will not hurt you!" Thank you. I see. I do not think I have even seen a McIntosh, but I recall they have soft blue lights. I had a sub with a hard blue light, on all the time. It was like torture. In my view, HiFi should be exact opposite of children, that is, heard and not seen.

Jan,

"By the way, what did you teach and where?" Kind of you to ask. Well, at the moment I do not really teach in a formal way, except when asked by outsiders to travel and do it. That actually filled the whole of September. My base is a shambolic former storage cupboard in a small town in the south of Sweden, where the natives turned out not to be friendly, after all, and stole my tent. And my horse. I have a small biochemistry lab, too, and one or two great research students, some of whom will be able to accompany me in the New Year migration, I hope.

"And I sold many expensive systems based on the fact you could not see it at all." There is a dangling pronoun there, unless you are Holmes, and "it" is the soft blue light. Sorry at the impertinence of this suggestion.

"And who knows if AH wasn't great at interior decor."

...well, if you like that style. Some did, evidently. I should imagine he was big on Gothic, lots of beams, turrets, emblems, trophies, etc. Or, more likely, a Bauhaus guy, even more scary. I would worry a lot about entering one of his showers. Me, I like Georgian. I imagine Mr Smith writing Wealth of Nations on a Chippendale desk in front of an Adam fireplace, pausing to gaze through a sash window at the Firth of Forth. That would be more for me. If I could afford it. Our current house is an early seventies mock tyrolean villa with cardboard walls and an external veneer of brick, which had me fooled it was made of brick, but it is in fact a big tent, built on poles which I discovered when I was laying speaker cables under the floors. It was not built to last. Also no hallways, so every room is also a corridor to somewhere else, a recipe for madness. I tried to fit in, when we got here, nearly bought a Volvo, but it ain't me, babe, no, no, no it ain't me babe.

If I lived in Dallas I'd choose your sort of area, for the same reasons, but if you have to worry about schools then that probably changes everything. Not far from where I'm going to work, there are beautiful Georgian terraces around squares with gardens and railings, but massive problems from the point of view of schools, staying unmugged, etc., so I'm told by people who seem to know. Our philosophical-political discourse could take in what happened to inner cities, once desirable, now not. I think it was mostly the railway, then the motor car. (Seems that most people, give the choice, like to live as far from other people as possible, making urban sprawl, and commuters. My favourite US city is San Francisco, where the ocean and the bay stood in the way of the sprawl. But gee, the prices.) Also the demise of the family, so that a house built for one family now has six doorbells, and the one-sixth is still too expensive for people with kids. It also happened in US. I was amazed at the bits of Brooklyn depicted in "Arsenic and Old Lace".

Is there any viewpoint on that from the bottom left-hand-corner of the political compass.....? I'll betcha Rick lives in a nice colonial-stype Villa, somewhere "posh".

Sorry to interrupt again Kegger. I am fascinated by all this talk of tubes.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 493
Registered: Dec-03
Sorry to burst your image bubble John. Just a modest ranch style home on a lovely secluded piece of land. A lovely lakeside town 50 miles north of Manhattan. It started life as a summer resort community for "well heeled" New York City folk and evolved from there. Homes on the lake 40 years ago went for $25,000. Now you can't touch anything for under $2,000,000. No I am not wealthy my friend. I have however, always earned a good living by breaking my butt 12-14 hours a day most of my working life. I have always been a man of few needs and fewer wants. All I ever wanted to be was a country gentleman. My only indulgences are my music and my gardening. Sorry John, I never had any need or desire for the Rolex or the Rolls, and the Porsche's, I out grew years ago. There is not much I would care to change about my life. I have been blessed with good health and the love of my life, my wife, and the joy of my life, my daughters. I quess looking back on my life only three things ever really mattered to me. My country, my family, and my friends. I consider several on this forum the later. Cheers!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1550
Registered: Dec-03
john.

this thread goes anywhere it wants to at anytime.
if tubes where the only subject then it would be
"probably" only me and jan talking.

so go about your buisness and talk about anything.
thats whats great about this thread.

anything you want at anytime!

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Kegger - I remeber the G.T.A.'s getting very good reviews so I think you have done quite well for your dollars. And for someone who enjoys ripping things apart and putting them back together they should be as much fun as the Dynacos. Both should give you years of good listening.
I agree that you should try whatever options are available to you, as you said if you don't try ... You are into some deep listening though when you get to choosing passive parts. My suggestion to listen to live music was to give your ears a respite from passive parts and HiFi. Don't get lost in just what your system sounds like. You are the only one your system has to please but I always found it best to just step back every now and again to forget about audio and hear the real thing. Then when you come back to your system you can do whatever you like.
It sounds as though you are on the right track. You are apparently finding the middle ground between what was the best part of old school and what changes/improvements can come form new school. And your evolving system is interesting to read about. Keep a clear head and keep on going.



 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1551
Registered: Dec-03
agreed jan!

I try to keep an open mind. as you said you can get lost in your system.

"wanting and thinking it is right or better"

I have 2 friends I trust quite a bit when it comes to audio
and 1 of them after listening to my system has decided to go the tube route.


so we have converted another jan!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2142
Registered: Dec-03
It sounds great, Rick. I am pleased to the read that. Forgive the presumption in my remark. I remember your writing of Westchester but had no clear idea of exactly where it is. I certainly don't imagine Mr Barnes as an arriviste, busy collecting status symbols, not at all.

I would not change much in my life, either, certainly not my wife and family. The main problem is having consistently swum against the economic and social tide. The house price issue, which you touch on, seems universal. Ahead of the A family are the people who could buy a home to live in, if just one of them had any sort of decent job. Behind us come the double-income-no-kids generation who hold on to real estate as an investment, not as a place to live and raise a family. It is not obvious who is going to be able to afford to pay the prices that will give them the return they hope for. Not their children; they don't have any. Immigrants, I guess. America is founded by and for immigrants, and there seems to me to be a deep tolerance in US society, whatever you think of George W., and no matter that the tolerance has only in our generation been extended to what colour you happen to be. European countries, in contrast, seem to have big problems with the existence of other cultures, languages, and ways of life, even each others'. It is odd that the world's most prosperous nations seem unable to invest in the future in the way their parents and grandparents did. The 60s seem like a distant era of optimism and a better future for all; it's all there in the songs and popular culture. It worked out for many, and failed for many, too. My father was a young man in the depression and developed a more sober view of how the world worked, I think, not dwelling much in the "Good old days" - for him things had only got better. We in the West are lucky to live in a time of peace and relative prosperity. How long it will last is not easy to predict.

End of ramble. Mustn't grumble, lads, things could be worse. Let's have an Old Dogs meeting sometime. It's money again. Shame it gets in the way!

PS Thanks, Kegger! I am not sure what counts as off-topic, here. Even "consumer electronics" seems to be a mirror of the times, I suspect we all agree on that.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2143
Registered: Dec-03
Just read last three posts. Great stuff, Jan, Kegger. I thought I was replying directly to Rick. Out of synch again. Sorry!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1552
Registered: Dec-03
needless to say i've been reeding and doing a lot of research
lately on capacitors.

and the teflon's keep coming up as the best of both worlds.
they are suppose to give you that warm sound of the pio's and yet the
clean clear resolution of the poly's.

pretty darn expensive though.
so i'll keep searching till i find a good price to try em.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 495
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

I have been meaning to ask.........what is an "old tube DOG" going to do with that solid state MAC?

Also, I have been thinking about the cabinet for the 6100. I have a good friend who is a real craftsman, cabinet maker, trim carpenter. He has offered to make one for me. My question is: Will I be on the "OD" vintage MAC hit list if I have it finished in rosewood or piano black finish. I see it in the later, especially with the glass and chrome of the MAC. I think it would look very elegant.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 696
Registered: Aug-04
Rick

Give the Mac some whitewalls also. Actually, the piano black sounds wonderful to me.

and other friends,

I awoke a little while ago and once again found myself too bright-eyed to go back to sleep so into my work room I go and find you guys into a domestic rant. As I can't crank up the audio with a great SURROUND sacd or dvd-a I may as well join you although, with the neighbours from hell on one side of our property, I am very tempted. You would not believe such animals could reside in our area. It's not that up-market, but it's certailny not the pits to which these ratbags are accustomed either. I believe an inheritence allowed them to interlope here. Enough!

We live in a modest bush style home on just over three quarters of an acre in what was once a rural village about ten minutes from the Gold Coast beaches. In the late 60's, my grandparents sold their beachside weekender with ajoining duplex, much to my parent's and my great disappointment (we lived in Brisbane at the time), and I was only just reading about a record sale of a property just down the road from there that sold for 18 million. Actually, my grandad had once owned nearly 30 homes in Brisbane and eventually sold them off to support a mining/prospecting obsession he had. Que sera sera!

Anyway, it's good to read about friends having similar values really do exist around the globe. It gives me faith. I too am very fortunate in having been able to share my life with the most wonderful woman and son a man could ask for. What else lights a candle to such fortune?

Kegger,

you keep doing what you're doing with your 'tubes' - it sounds darn fascinating and I bet will sound astounding once you have them all set up to ramp out 7.1 channels of unadulterated bliss with hi-rez SURROUND recordings. (The capitals are for you know who :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1553
Registered: Dec-03
yo rick i would think the piano black would look very nice.

elegant as you said!

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1554
Registered: Dec-03
got yu rantz.

and like I said from your pics on discoveries your
place looks very nice.

I really do want to visit austraulia at least once.

my place is nothing special just in the heart of the city
with a good size basement FOR ME!

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1555
Registered: Dec-03
ghia you never mentioned what kinda compensation you got from
the first mac.

last I heard he was talking to ebay.

if you don't mind saying i'm nosy!

 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 496
Registered: Dec-03
Rantz,

Yes whitewalls and baby "MOON" hub caps. How old I feel...............Sigh

I 'm leaning toward the piano black, but the rosewood would match the Spendors...............or is that too FOO FOO?????

Thank you also Kegger! I'll be talking to you about tubes right after the holidays. Build a nice one for me. I'll let you know about finish, either piano black or rosewood.......(LOL!)
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 697
Registered: Aug-04
Kegger

I feel the same way about the US. We'll have to be sure to make contact if any of we old dogs ever get the chance to visit each other's country. Well, the eyelids are hinting for me to try the bed again. Nighty night!
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 256
Registered: Mar-04
Please forgive me, I'm just now catching up on last week's banter about copyright/ownership and illeagal downloading of music. Let me first say that I have used the different file sharing sites like Napster and Kazaa, etc. And because of these sites, and the downloading of songs found within, I certainly and legitimately have ended up buying cds that I wouldn't have, had it not been for vehicles such as these. Maybe I'm the exception, however.
Its quite impossible for the music industry to put a value on lost sales due to file sharing. Every song, every album downloaded obviously does not equate to lost sales. Its a big leap for them to say 'had they not downloaded it they >WOULD< have bought it.' A bite has been taken from their profits, no doubt, but not as big a bite as they'd like for you to believe.
Personally I feel music mega-monster Clear Channels Corp. does as much or more to stifle creativity and thus sales than Napster/Kazaa ever could.

You have two factors here: those who create the music and want it to be heard, and those who wish to hear it. Everything else in-between is fluff (or should I say corporate bloodsuckers). The real problem is that the music industry's business
model makes no sense any more. However, like all entrenched industries, the participants have a hard time embracing market reality because it will mean that they will lose much of the economic advantage they have built up for themselves (i.e. the current participants will go out of business, or at least make a lot less money). History is filled with industries that desperately fought losing battles to defend obsolete business models, including those made
obsolete by new technologies. For example, the movie studios went through a huge change because of television. Before Television, the big studios cranked out dozens and dozens of movies, cartoons, newsreels, short subjects, etc. every year because every theater had to have new content every week. In the "golden age" of the studio system, most actors and directors were contract employees of the studios, and the studios ruled. With the arrival of television, the "extra" content (cartoons, shorts, etc.) went away, and the studio system died.

In the music industry, the old model isn't supportable any more either. Cd's sell for around $15-20 dollars retail. I'm guessing it costs less than a dollar to manufacture a cd, including the case. I've also heard artists make $1 - $2 per each cd sold, not sure, but I think that's a reasonable guess. The "industry" siphons off the
rest (advertising, lots of middle men, lots of profit for everyone but the artist). Economically speaking, it is very hard for an industry to maintain 70-80% margins for an extended period. Admittedly, the copyright monopoly on content helps, but the creators of the content (the artists), aren't the ones making the money from the monopoly that was supposedly instituted for their benefit.

If the price of a CD were to drop to a more reasonable level (even as much as 2-3X cost, instead of 10X cost), CD prices would be around $5 and piracy might fall off. In a sense, piracy is an element of the "free market" that is pressuring the industry to change, much the same way "free" broadcast television pressured the movie industry. (yes piracy is illegal, and yes, it is stealing, but from an economic theory viewpoint, that is almost irrelevant).

The system of requiring customers to buy a whole package of songs (i.e. all the songs on a CD) just to get the ones they really want probably needs to change too. Again, this requires a shift in thinking both by the industry and by artists (pretty radical to let customers buy what they want, not what the seller wants them to take). With the advent of fee-based download sites, at more reasonable prices, this is already happening. Perhaps piracy will begin to slow down some, we'll see. Now if we could just do something about Clear Channels.......
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 257
Registered: Mar-04
Since I'm so behind in my Old Dog reading, I'm figuring around Thursday I'll be writing about my '69 Biscayne. :-)
 

You Know Who:-)
Unregistered guest


Let's see - not to get into who has the worst neighbors but - I lived next to a gent that had mental problems from VietNam, or whatever he did as a youth, that threatened to kill me and the rest of the neighborhood on several occassions before he was finally convinced by his son that he had to move away. He would sit in the house in the middle of a Texas summer at 104 degrees and have only the front door open with a 12" fan blowing on him. Needless to say the stench was so overwhelming that I couldn't sit on my front porch. The yard was mowed twice a summer and the house looked abandoned. The city let him get away with too much trying to be understanding. He finally moved away the day after I turned 50, the best present I could ask for. The house has now been under renovation for two years and I have not seen a worker for four months. There you go, anyone care to top that?
We are all the same under the skin but don't act like it. I have always been struck by the ability of mankind to find someone to hate. Oh well, what would we do without war?


Kegger - Teflons - Ah, Grasshopper, when will you learn; the cost is always higher!

Rick - As MyRantz suggests, out a '57 Chevy looks pretty good with 50 series tires on it. Old dogs go with their heart. The one thing that made the Mac cabinets different is the PanLock system. I don't know if you want that as it is not essential to the operation of the amp but it keeps a thirty something amp from sliding out onto your foot when you are working with it.
I'd say try a few pieces of wood on top of the amp to see what you like, Rosewood sounds good to me but I am a sucker for black cars and good HiFi.
As to the 6200 it will go into a system that is being put together in the back of the house now that the HT has occupied the old music room. Distasteful but it had to happen. The Mac tubes will be in a location where I can no longer leave them on constantly so I think I will use the 6200 as an everyday amp for listening when I don't want to fire up the tubes. The problem is the big transformers on the 240's take a while to warm up and give good sound (their not unlistenable cold but, as I said to Ghia, it is the difference between a cold roast beef sandwich and a hot sandwich with gravy). There is a defeinite difference in the first three hours and I can hear an improvement over the course of several days when they have sat cold for any length of time. I also will put the Audble Illusions tube pre amp in that system and it is somewhat inconvenient to operate in that it has no balance control but, intead, two volume pots. Since no two pots track absolutely the same they require some fiddling to get the right balance if I really crank the volume up. So the 6200 will work as an everday pre amp also. For those times when I just want to put on some music and hear something better than what the SURROUND SYSTEM can deliver I think this will work out fine. And, besides, Mac is Mac. There ain't nothing wrong with McIntosh transistors.



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Sem - You mean the movie industry got in to trouble over Television? So it wasn't that they paid Tom Cruise $25 million and a piece of the box office for "The Last Samurai"? (I read he may make almost $150 million when all is said and done.) Who woulda thunk it?



 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1556
Registered: Dec-03
sem

"Let me first say that I have used the different file sharing sites like Napster and Kazaa, etc. And because of these sites, and the downloading of songs found within, I certainly and legitimately have ended up buying cds that I wouldn't have, had it not been for vehicles such as these."

this I understand and agree with.
even the buying of single songs can premote sales
and get word out of a certain artist.

what I feel is the problem is digital copies of a
digital source. like cd to cd or dvd to dvd.

also i believe you will never get rid of all piracy nor do i believe
it would be healthy for the industry.

but I do believe it needs to be kept to a minumum.

that's all i'm saying.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 498
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

Sounds like a plan to me. No pun indended. I now realize the meaning of Mac is Mac. You said once," When you finally get the Mac sound, you begin to realize that the others got it all wrong. Man 'o man were you ever right. Mac IS the sound of music. All I know is the combo of gear I have right now with the 6100 sounds perfect to me. Never have I spent so little and gained so much...................Is there a lesson here? Simplify...........

PS What would we do without war? We could all become farmers and feed the world. How's that for a start? Not bad for a Republican Hey!
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 258
Registered: Mar-04
Jan,
No, I'm saying the movie industry had to change its business model after television came along. They have, as you're hinting at, gotten into trouble all on their own.

Kegger,
"what I feel is the problem is digital copies of a digital source. like cd to cd or dvd to dvd."
That's exactly what these file sharing site are: digital copies of digital sources.
I have a problem with people who just feel its ok to download entire cds rather than buying them. And then turn around and distribute it to others. Samples are one thing, and can actually be used to increase sales, like you said. But we who view it, and use it that way, are in the minority i'm afraid.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1557
Registered: Dec-03
yes sem thats what i mean by.

"like cd to cd or dvd to dvd."

I think we agree
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


"PS What would we do without war? We could all become farmers and feed the world. How's that for a start? Not bad for a Republican Hey!"

AH, but then we'd be looking for a bipartisan grain subsidy bill. And who would make the HiFi stuff if we were all farmin'?



 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 499
Registered: Dec-03
Sorry..........I had a momentary lapse of reason and slid way too far left. After all-SOMEONE has to make a profit or else we would all be communists.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 698
Registered: Aug-04
"So it wasn't that they paid Tom Cruise $25 million and a piece of the box office for "The Last Samurai"? (I read he may make almost $150 million when all is said and done.)"

But Jan, you forgot to consider that poor Tom had to fork over about 300 mil to Nic. You gotta give him a break man :-)

Rick - Glad you came to your senses - imagine a world full of big fat commies and no audio?
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 500
Registered: Dec-03
Thank you Rantz. I can always count on you for a reality check! (LOL)
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 398
Registered: Apr-04
Sem wrote:

"Admittedly, the copyright monopoly on content helps, but the creators of the content (the artists), aren't the ones making the money from the monopoly that was supposedly instituted for their benefit. "

Not only that, but few artists control their careers when signed on to the evil labels. It's been awhile since I mentioned Aimee Mann so I'll bring her up as case in point. She's had several battles with record execs who refused to release her albums because they didn't "hear any singles". In one instance, she requested to be released from her contract and not only did they refuse to let her go, they refused to release her album or let her go into the studio....for five years. The last major label she was on agreed to let her out of her contract when she wouldn't change the songs she had recorded - but - they wouldn't give her the master tapes of her own recording! She had to pay a six-figure sum just to get the master tape back of the songs she had created. The irony is, once she decided to go independent she's making far more money than she ever did with the labels and, more importantly, is releasing the music she creates not some manufactured trendy sound dictated by a record exec. More artists need to figure this out.

Kegger,

I settled for $500 with the seller of the Mac. Probably could have gotten more if I'd wanted to go through a battle but that was enough not to have to deal with it.


Rick,

"Simplify..." Exactly! That's the beauty of the sound coming out of the Mac. It's so pure and simple, there's not much else needed for satisfaction. It's a good philosophy for other areas of life too.

If you follow the Discoveries thread, you've seen some photos of my home. It's just a small (1700 sq ft) 1940's ranch but it's in a nice older neighborhood near a university so the cookie cutter homogenity of surburban sprawl is minimized to a degree. I like historic districts such as Jan's neighborhood and lived in a cute bungalow in a historic district in another city before I moved here. That neighborhood went through a major gentrification in the 15 years I lived in it. I finally was driven out by the proliferation of yuppies, higher taxes and concerns of my job being shipped to India. So, in the past year, I've sold the trendy house, sold some beach property, paid off debt and am preparing to....Simplify.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Rick - How's this for a plan - we dig in the earth to get little green sprouts shoosting up through the rich brown soil, and buy old HiFi that Kegger then modifies. (Hope he doesn't get hooked on Teflon caps if this idea works out.)



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Kegger - This is an interesting ad. The PV5 is a truly great pre amp with old school sound when stock. It is a pre amp you can't stop listening to. This would appear to be a very good price for what is being offered.



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Click here for PV5:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?preatube&1097025070&auc&3&4&



 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1558
Registered: Dec-03
appreciate the headsup sounds pretty nice and i'm
still looking for good tube preamp.

sounds like something i'd be interested in.

has 7days left on the auction and the reserve is not met
but i will watch it.

anytime you see something like that i enjoy hearing about it.

thanks!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2145
Registered: Dec-03
Welcome back, My Rantz and Sem! Great Points.

MR, I'd fight back against the neighbours with Mahler. We have neighbours who play club music some way away, occasionally, it sounds like heavy construction machinery in their garden. It helps to shut the windows.

Sem, I think you've got it completely right. I remember reading somewhere that CD sales went up after since Napster etc got into the act.

Ghia, I am completely with you on the artists. AM is not the only one. Lots of classical players get ensnared by the big labels. Many are now starting their own, if they are well enough established.

Rick, I think I would go with Rosewood. Piano black can be cool, but also borders on ostentation.

Now, how's this for a plan, if we had the money. 2005-8. One Old Dogs' Week each year, suggest sometime Aug-Sept. Brisbane; Dallas; New York; London (alphabetical); anywhere else?. Plus local visits e.g up-state NY, Gold Coast, etc. One genre per day (opera, jazz, rock, whatever; the "expert" leads). The host makes advance bookings, and advises on hotels etc, that's all. Partners welcome. No middle men. Members only. Long advance planning. Total cost equal to about a new A/V receiver each year, I think. Ah, to be rich.... Just fantasising. I believe I've taken a liking to the company, here.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1559
Registered: Dec-03
john:

"Now, how's this for a plan, if we had the money. 2005-8. One Old Dogs' Week each year, suggest sometime Aug-Sept. Brisbane; Dallas; New York; London (alphabetical); anywhere else?. Plus local visits e.g up-state NY, Gold Coast, etc. One genre per day (opera, jazz, rock, whatever; the "expert" leads). The host makes advance bookings, and advises on hotels etc, that's all. Partners welcome. No middle men. Members only. Long advance planning. Total cost equal to about a new A/V receiver each year, I think. Ah, to be rich.... Just fantasising. I believe I've taken a liking to the company, here."

that would be awsome!

even though i might be a "younger dog" i can still go right?

i'll buy the first round!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 700
Registered: Aug-04
MR, I'd fight back against the neighbours with Mahler.

John A - Mahler would need to be well armed, well schooled in the martial arts, be ex or practising SAS and most certainly be willing to die.

One Old Dogs' Week each year

You know, that would be something - but I'd never get away with it :-)

BTW - Saw an ad on the telly today: BOND ARE COMING!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 501
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

I like it! Count me in.

Ghia,

Yes, I'm starting to think rosewood too. Thanks!

John,

Count me in on your plan as well! Somehow we have to figure a way to make this happen-at least once.

Rantz,

Improvise, adapt, overcome! (LOL)

Kegger,

Not to worry my friend. You always had the right stuff of "Old Dogs". Patience "Grasshopper" patience................
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 259
Registered: Mar-04
Kegger,
"yes sem thats what i mean by.
like cd to cd or dvd to dvd.
I think we agree"

Yes we do indeed....Cheers.


Ghia,
"It's been awhile since I mentioned Aimee Mann so I'll bring her up as case in point. She's had several battles with record execs who refused to release her albums because they didn't "hear any singles".

Yes, I have heard that same thing happening to many different artists. Such a shame. But I really feel things are changing more and more as the internet has "wrested technology's sword from the hand of the War Lords" (to quote Roger Waters). But it will take time and perseverance as more and new acts bypass major music labels and become successful, underground at first obviously. Though underground isn't quite so far under as it once was. It will take time however, quite like turning a battleship around in a canal.


John A.
"I remember reading somewhere that CD sales went up after since Napster etc got into the act."

I guess it depends who and what you're reading. The music industry certainly spins it differently. I will say most of what I have read cites declining sales of music. I have no idea, really, but do know I'm buying less cds now than 10 years ago. For me, personally, I'm finding less and less that appeals to me. I guess I have to expand my musical tastes beyond my present comfort level. That's why My Rantz' thread on HiRes ratings is something to keep active. Who knows, perhaps Mahler is on my horizon. :-)



 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2146
Registered: Dec-03
MR

Mahler would need to be well armed, well schooled in the martial arts, be ex or practising SAS and most certainly be willing to die. Well probably not Mahler then, bit of a wuss. One of the deceased 00- agents from Johnny English would have been better. Not many classical composers had those sort of credentials, though they are, of course, mostly ex-composers. I'd be inclined to try the last movement of Beethoven's ninth symphony, really loud, with air and ground cover. I know, "Asyla", the "filler" on the Mahler 5 DVD, would produce unconditional surrended in no time, but you'd have to consider the collateral damage.

but I'd never get away with it Then include Mrs Rantz.

BOND ARE COMING! Cough. Details, please. Not that I am particularly interested, just idle curiosity, you understand....

Kegger,

even though i might be a "younger dog" i can still go right? Absolutely. You are a founder-member.

Rick,

Somehow we have to figure a way to make this happen-at least once. Great. Having sobered up a bit I begin to calculate the cost. Hotels etc. I suppose if we had say 8-10 we could get some deal on bookings. We could schedule a "hi-end" hifi demo or two, and I could buy a stylus, or something. Or a trade show, though they look scary, and expensive, unless you have massive self-control. Accompanying persons could be spared the hi-fi bits.

BTW I do not have shares in HiFi News but next month's includes:-

Inside story of the LS3/5A
Alan Shaw of Harbeth shoots down the 'myth'

Audio Classics
A visit to the US classic McIntosh dealer
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 502
Registered: Dec-03
Thanks John. That looks like an interesting read. I'll look forward to it.

Keep working on a get-together John, maybe some way to make it happen........................

Cheers to all the "OD's!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2147
Registered: Dec-03
Rick, also a review of the Spendor S6e. Cheers!

Sem, I think Mahler came in originally because of the extreme audio work-out capability, but I confess the music is growing on me, too. See Friday, September 24, 2004 - 01:18 pm. Thanks again for Pink Floyd! Haven't played my new PF LPs yet, just a snip of Ummagumma, but will. And the wee-ind cree-ed Marih.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 291
Registered: Feb-04
John A.

Glad to hear that Mahler is growing on you. That's how it usually goes. The man was a wuss, but his music is Mighty! I can attest to the scare value of Mahler on neighbors when blared through the stereo. I'm going to scare myself this Friday with a live performance of Mahler's Ninth. Time to fill myself with more thoughts about living and dying...

Finally saw "Almost Famous", a very good movie about the rock scene. It has this gem of a line: "The only currency in this bankrupt world is the experiences shared when you're being uncool" or something like that, spoken by Lester Bangs.

Peace.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 701
Registered: Aug-04
"I'd be inclined to try the last movement of Beethoven's ninth symphony, really loud, with air and ground cover"

John, with the air and ground cover, that may just work. Total annnihilation is required - and I'm not kidding.

About Bond - just saw titbits on the advert and I had the notion, that for this group, any musical talent would be a bonus. Didn't catch where or when but will endeavour to stay abreast of the situation.

John and Rick - yes I could always bring Mrs Rantz (and she would happily oblige me) but as much as I would like an 'Old Dogs' get-together, any travels would need to fill the world travel locations we've always considered. In other words, when such is ever affordable, Mrs Rantz's wishes would come first. Isn't that right dear?


 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 261
Registered: Mar-04
John A.
"Thanks again for Pink Floyd! Haven't played my new PF LPs yet, just a snip of Ummagumma, but will. And the wee-ind cree-ed Marih."

I'm waiting for that song in surround. Might just be more thrilling than a roller coaster!!

Check out: https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=47070&post=149802#POST149802
I have yet another version of DSOTM.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 706
Registered: Aug-04
Sem

Walked past 'Almost Famous' often in our local rental store as I had little interest in seeing it because I was not fussed on Kate Hudson. Eventualy we rented it and found it was a really enjoyable movie and my impressions of Kate Hudson changed dramatically.

BTW - bought the DVD-V of Boz Scaggs Greatest Hits Live - recorded in the American Theatre in San Francisco. It's a great concert but the rendition of 'Somebody Lend Me A Dime' was absolutely outstanding. The band was excellent as was Boz!
 

Silver Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 140
Registered: Jun-04
Hi guys and gals,

The f***ing ISP provider made me miss the piracy discussion this weekend, so I hope you don't mind another post on the issue.

Firstly, some "statistics": Way back in time I owned about 200 vinyls and 100 cassettes. I couldn't afford buying al LP's I wanted, so sometimes I borrowed from friend and taped. 12 years later, I have about 200 original CDs and 100 CD-R. The latter being albums that I would never buy, just a couple of good songs that I listen to for a week, and then forget.

Point is, copying at home has existed for several decades and does not bring about major loss of record sales. So I cannot see why anti-piracy battle should be aimed at you and me.

Why then shouñd industry worry? Answer (IMO): professional piracy. Every month here in Madrid there are razzias in "production line". Typically, a downtown flat where police find up to 50 "toasters" working in parallel. And outside every shopping mall, major tube station etc there are some "local vendors", each behind a spread-out blanket full of the latest releases. Success is parcially built on superior distribution: I can pick up a CD on my way down to the underground, I don't have to take the car to the shopping mall, where I maybe even receive the notice "oh, it won't come in until next week".

IMO, copy protection is utterly silly. Industry standards tends to become what they should be: public information. So every attempt to implement a general CP is bound to fail. Personally I don't care much about if hi-rez is copy protected or not. At present, we should buy originals to show industry we want it. But it is already theoretically possible to copy a DVD-A or SACD as PPCM: Connect player's 5.1 analogue to a m-ch Analogue-to-Digital converter board, apply FLAC (free lossless audio compression) and store on a DVD-R. Some quality degradation, yes. But nothing compared to vinyl passed to tape.

But there is another tendency, reinforced by professional piracy, that worries me. Music industry is working on a more efficient distribution channel: on-line sales. With current internet connections this has to be compressed music, such as MP3. Never DVD-A, because for m-ch DVD-A and 512 kbps DSL, download time would exceed 40 minutes per track.

My conclusion is bad news for audiophiles: music industry will continue promoting low quality formats. But don't worry, there are other forces in the market: HiFi manufacturers striving for technological improvements to outbeat unbranded gear, and mature artists who realize the better the reproducitiom, the more obvious the shortcomings of some younger hotshots.

One last reflection: the outcome of all this might very well be a clear-cut division of markets between low-rez and hi-rez formats. This is not entirely new, in the 70s emerged a similar coexistence for LPs and cassettes.

Hasta pronto
AL
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 707
Registered: Aug-04
Al,

ISP providers all seem the same, but I've found swearing gets you nowhere. Good comments on the piracy issue though.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 708
Registered: Aug-04
Two Cents,

Apologies! The bit about 'Almost Famous' was meant as a reply to your post.

Cheers
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2152
Registered: Dec-03
Two Cents,

Welcome back! Please take a moment to look at "Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 04:00 pm"; "Friday, September 24, 2004 - 10:00 am" ("Where are you, 2c?"); and "Friday, September 24, 2004 - 01:18 pm". I feel sure you would love that disc, from our previous discussions. You can even view the inside of Berlin Phiharmonie on the DVD-V. Rattle goes to number one. What a guy. Perhaps I should port that over to "Discoveries".

I mentioned the disc in the context of copy protection. I now have a prompt and courteous reply from NAD saying my player probably needs a firmware upgrade "It has been noted that there is some difficulty in playing certain DVD AUDIO
discs that contain CPPM protection. " ...and that my distributor is aware of the problem. If it has reached my local dealer, that will be progress. I will check it out. Anyone know what "CPPM" means...? I could guess. Copy Protection (licence to) Print Money. You pay full whack for a new player and a new disc, and it doesn't work. Irritation. EMI has yet to reply. There is nothing visibly distinguishing that DVD-A from the others, even EMI ones.

My Rantz,

Bond's musical credentials and talent seem to be in no doubt, but somewhat overshadowed by other attributes, which will not last them as long, in the nature of things. Yes, if there are any prominent and outstanding news updates, do please alert us. I wonder if a little more of Bond might be revealed in an extended Johnny English. I am surprised you escaped the "Words not allowed on this forum"; it is is "tidbits" in US, I believe, founded as it was, originally, by puritans.

I ventured to suggest an Old Dog's week with Mrs A and she asked whether I was out of my skull, not uncommon, but I think I detected a flicker of interest. We are about 22 years overdue for a vacation.

Sem,

Yes, Small Furry Mammals just cries out for surround. As I said, they were playing around with stereo, I think it was '69. They would surely have pulled out all the stops if they'd had 5.1. Yes, I saw that nice thread. I thought there was little to say after Anonymous, but yet another version of DSOTM is always good to hear about!

All the best.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 709
Registered: Aug-04
John A

That version of the word was poetic licence as being more applicable - but,thanks for keep abreast of such things. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 262
Registered: Mar-04
My Rantz,
"BTW - bought the DVD-V of Boz Scaggs Greatest Hits Live - recorded in the American Theatre in San Francisco. It's a great concert but the rendition of 'Somebody Lend Me A Dime' was absolutely outstanding. The band was excellent as was Boz!"

Thanks. I'll add it to my ever growing list. '..Loan Me a Dime' is a great song, I'd love to see it performed live. Along the same lines is UK vocalist (and guitarist extraordinaire John Miles' 'Now That the Magic is Gone'. And one-time Canned Heat guitarist Walter Trout's 'Go the Distance'. Both songs are red hot guitar based blues numbers I think you'd like. You know where they are. :-)



John A.
"I thought there was little to say after Anonymous"

I saw that. Wasn't quite sure what to make of it. Posts like those are best left to wither up and die on their own, eh? :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2153
Registered: Dec-03
Arnold,

I agree completely. The same forces are at work in digital broadcasting, which worries me more, since we are not allowed see and hear each other's news coverage. From a civil liberties point of view, it would be good if more individuals routinely used encryption and/or authentication. I try, but hardly anyone else has the software, even though it is free. If anyone would like to test the system, to see if Big Brother is watching, please post here a public key, and I shall post or e-mail an encrypted audio file of your choice. Or a photo of Bond. It will have to be small (on modem) but it would be a good experiment, to see if RIAA phones the police.

MR,

I, too, was replying to posts back up the thread; you, 2c, Sem. Sorry, AL!

My only small point of disagreement with AL is that streaming hi-res files is already possible, though few homes have the bandwidth, at present. That will change. The industry knows this. I submit that is the reason for promotion of SACD, and probably also the underlying reason why my Mahler 5 DVD-A will not play. When those guys can revoke the key in the player, as satellite broadcasters can and do, in the receiver, if you don't subscribe, then we move on to the next chapter.

ISPs do it, too. That's another saga. Anything digitally encoded can be encrypted.

Just to forestall my good friends Kegger and MR (I mean that!) worrying again about my state of mind, consider this, from SACD News: SACD II to be Announced in September [HFR].


While there has been no word of the extended format from representatives of Sony or members of the SACD project (not even an acknowledgement of our enquiries), officials from Philips Europe have not been so tight-lipped.
....
A heightened copy protection method with improved software/hardware authentication is the second area where SACD II will build upon the existing format. The DSD layer(s) of an SACD disc are already fairly secure, largely because there are no PC drives capable of reading the high-resolution content due to something called Lead-in scrambling, or the "Super Audio CD mark". This prevents drives that are not licensed for SACD playback from reading the lead-in data area of disc, the portion that describes the remainder of the content. The DSD data itself is also encrypted using a unique 80-bit key, carried via a physical watermark within the pits of the disc known as Pit Signal Processing Physical Disc Mark (PSP-PDM).

So one would think all this would be enough, but amongst today's paranoid content providers, immunity to piracy is seen as a huge selling point and theoretically at least, the high-resolution layer of DVD-Audio currently affords greater security. For example, DVD-Audio players have a unique key embedded in their hardware that could enable individual players to be revoked and CPPM, the encryption system, has three elements, including a key on each disc, a revocation table on each disc and a key in each player, whereas the current version of SACD only has a key on the disc (much like CSS).


I ask again; why not just try making a better mousetrap? Isn't this all a total waste of money and human ingenuity?
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2154
Registered: Dec-03
Out of synch again!

MR:- I think that is a full, rounded appraisal of the situation.

Sem:- Posts like those are best left to wither up and die on their own, eh?. Absolutely. And I imagine he came down, eventually. It wasn't me!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 710
Registered: Aug-04
Thanks John, I'll endeavour not to make such a B00B again.

Re: the terrifying SACD11 link - I has read that but did thought it best to leave an old sleeping dog lie for a while. Seems like DVD-A has Sony/Phillips running scared, yet they outnumber them on titles. It's a darn crazy situation and I hope there is a rebellion. To arms!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 711
Registered: Aug-04
John A

Re: previous post. Change has to had and omit did.

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2156
Registered: Dec-03
J. Vigne, Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 05:24 pm:- the link will not load for me.
 

Silver Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 143
Registered: Jun-04
MR, I agree foul words does not make ISPs improve. If it would, they'd already be the goodest of guys, worldwide...

John, actually you've made me partially revoke my indifference towards copy protection. Those little "improvements" will probably make some old players obsolete or at least malfunctioning, just as the non-redbook CD annoyances (try DVD player digital output of Van Morrison's latest...).

Link on CPPM:

http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/dvdaudio/dvdaud_copyprot.htm

Cheers
AL
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2157
Registered: Dec-03
Thanks, Arnold. I have quoted Disctronics, myself, but not on that.

"Content Protection for Pre-recorded Media". Ah, yes, so that's how it works...! No exactly memorable. you've made me partially revoke my indifference towards copy protection Does that mean you come down against? Planned obsolescence, too! It's worse than I thought. I add "...and one that lasts" to "make a better mousetrap". See "corporate America" discussion, above. Meanwhile, in Africa....

MR,

ISPs are like eveything else, the service got worse when they started having to make money out of it.

And, with with price-fixing and all that, you still don't get many to the pound.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 712
Registered: Aug-04
Arnold,

I actually swore at the poor customer service rep at my ISP knowing full well the conversation was being recorded. Somehow, I don't think they take much notice of anything we say. :-)

Two months ago mine talked me into signing up for a new whiz-bang pricing deal on my broadband contract. Last week they dropped the pricing again drastically. I should have seen them coming.

As for this SACD11 - I cannot see how they could make them (if they go ahead) without continuing to provide the standard SACD as well. If they do, well I think we really should take up arms. CD is a music only format - why include video? My previous answer I suppose.

Well, if I have to buy another player I think I'll just chuck it all in, forget about music, sell the house, quit everything, and go kangaroo shooting! Oh darn it, that's right - they don't let us have guns anymore. All right, I'll take up smoking again.

Where in heck is my Lithium?
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


John - There are forces at work which we do not comprehend.
Try this one:

http://www.uppity-negro.com/archives/000745.html



 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2159
Registered: Dec-03
Sem, My Rantz,

On Twilight of the Compact Disc, Keith Brown writes:

This is a little out of context, but I do know that Sony paid off Pink Floyd to get them to release Dark Side of the Moon on SACD instead of DVD-A. It was originally planned for DVD-A. Sony is trying to 'niche' the market for SACD over DVD-A.

MR, I know just how you feel. Kangaroo shooting would be good, but I could think of other quarry.

What a world.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 714
Registered: Aug-04
John

I read that thread - preposterous if true!

Even though the 'roos are a pest here, they'd really have to get someone else to shoot them. I did it once in my youth. Never again. There is nothing worse than the sound of a kangaroo screaming - sounds human.

Other quarry: neighbours, lawyers, corporate leaders, dentists and tv reporters. Feel free to add!

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2166
Registered: Dec-03
MR,

Digital rights managers. I'd show no mercy. They must multiplying like vermin.

I'd make musicans and recording artists a protected species, however. Especially Bond, to whom I meant to refer with "you don't get many of those to the pound".

Possibly that one does not translate.
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