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Archive through September 12, 2004

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1348
Registered: Dec-03
yes i know it should be outside 2 jan!

but that means 3 sets of binding posts. and 3 seperate xovers!

this is good enough for now.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1349
Registered: Dec-03
can u tell i just got a digital camera?

sorry for all the pic's but i can't stop!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 594
Registered: Aug-04
Kegger,

It's okay to get some sleep. Freddy is dead. Really, it's safe!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1350
Registered: Dec-03
arnold i didn't forget about your experiment.

yes you can find monoblock plans and even mono block
amps allready together. or ones needing rebuilding.

there are a ton of them on audiogon. jan may be able to point you in
the right direction as which ones might make good candidates.
like i said personally i like to take ones that were considered pretty good
then rebuild/upgrade them and make them something special.

because for me the difficult thing is the chassis and the transformers.
so i go with units that have all the parts then replace what i think
should/need to be to bring them upto todays standards.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1351
Registered: Dec-03
rantz lol.

I know, i usually get to bed about 4:00 a.m. these days!
gotta stop that!

well i think i'm done for the night! see yu all.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 595
Registered: Aug-04
Sweet Dreams! Good pics, hope all your work results in the sound you're looking for. If not, should look pretty anyway. :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1362
Registered: Dec-03
yes I hope the sound improves also, will find out tonight hopefully.
 

Silver Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 123
Registered: Jun-04
Yeah, I think there are many obstacles when building from scratch. Almost imperative to copy a design. And after buying components, marking it all up for precision drilling. Lots of tools purchase too.

Anyway, by now I'll stick to speaker upgrade. Medium term project, Mrs. Layne has set non-audio furniture high priority.

Cheers
AL
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 318
Registered: Apr-04
Here's an interesting article regarding the recording process of a multichannel project:

Why Surround Me with All this Sound?

It might get this thread back on topic. :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1395
Registered: Dec-03
GHIA YOUR UP AWFULLY EARLY!

well i'm off to the other side of the state for my second
fantasy football draft.

wish me luck. ghia how's your team.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 320
Registered: Apr-04
Kegger,

The early bird gets the worm. Go to Discoveries to see my team. :-)

Good luck!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2056
Registered: Dec-03
This Old Dog has just tried a very New Trick. It worked first time.

An Apple Airport Express Base Station receives and transmits to extend a domestic wireless computer network. It has an audio-output socket. Into it fits either a TOS-link optical cable or an analogue mini-jack. I have tried the mini-jack. The Base Station receives a digital stream from a computer with a WiFi card (I have an Airport card) playing a CD, or playing files (.aiff, mp3, aac, whatever) saved to disc.

The sound quality is not obviously different from that obtained by playing a CD in a CD player. I will listen more carefully. I have not tried the TOS-link output; I will be interested to compare that, too. The DAC in the Base Station is obviously not bad. Maybe it is the same as in an iPod.

Anyway, I have applied my iPod Mahler test and the sound from the Bass station is just as good as with an iPod, which is as good (or very close) as with a CD player. It is strange getting sound with no disc playing anywhere, and the source computer upstairs and on the other side of the house. Or anywhere you like, if it is a laptop.

Surely this is what the industry sees around the corner. If you value convenience it is irresistible. If you value sound quality it seems fine, too. If you are happy with CD.

iTunes files ("Songs") are aac, and lower resolution than CD's aiff. But you can save full-sized CD files to disc.

A CD takes up about 650 MB. So you could get 100 CDs on the sort of hard disc found in modern desktop and laptop computers. A server will carry more.

I cannot quite get my head around what all this means, and, as usual, my family think I am slightly unhinged, but I cannot see so many people buying any sort of disc in ten years' time. When you can download, or "rip", hi-res audio files, then surely buying discs is going to have less appeal.

I still rate my LP turntable as the best source, and like LP sleeves etc. But I can digitize and store my LPs. The files will never degrade. I can play them anytime on any HiFi that will accept the standard input from the Bass Station. Surely this is the real revolution?

DVD-A still gives better sound by far than CD. But there is no reason why all this cannot be done with DVD-A, too: it is just a question of bandwidth.

WIth SACD-DSD, however, (and thanks for the link, Ghia), there are serious obstacles to reading and writing files. As I have said before, I think this is the SACD hidden agenda.

That's about it. [Retires, scratching head].
 

Anonymous
 
good reply
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2062
Registered: Dec-03
Just to save others the trouble, that last post was an advertisement.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 612
Registered: Aug-04
He's been placing these ads all over the forum! Now why haven't I thought of that!
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 240
Registered: Mar-04
Thanks. I figured that's what it was. I never bothered to check though.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 324
Registered: Apr-04
Well, the McIntosh came in today. I haven't opened it yet but glass shards are falling out of the crevices of the box.....on hold with UPS right now. More later. Damn.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 617
Registered: Aug-04
Ghia - you must be shattered too! Unbelievable!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 325
Registered: Apr-04
The unbelievable thing is the shipper didn't double-box an item like this. I bought it off eBay so I may end up losing $700+ shipping on this deal.

I know there are companies like Audio Classics that can repair amps and maybe can replace the glass front. What are the thoughts about this? Should I keep the amp, file a claim with UPS and try to get it repaired? Or should I pursue getting a full refund from the seller and return it to him? I'm inclined to do that since I don't know the full extent of the damage. The glass face is clearly beyond repair but what about the rest? If I knew I could get a replacement glass and nothing else was wrong with it, I'd keep it. For those that know about the innards of Mac's, what else should I be concerned about?

I'll post pictures shortly.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1420
Registered: Dec-03
ghia was it ups insured?

if so take pictures and get the cash then clean out the glass
and try the thing. it's probably only the glass.

even if you don't have ups insurance i would try.

if ups does nothing i would try and get my money back from sellar.

or possably a couple hundred back from sellar if the unit works and it's just the glass.

now those are just some of my ideas!

i feel for yu ghia. darnit!
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 241
Registered: Mar-04
Ghia,

So sorry to hear of your misfortune. Why it wasn't double-boxed is beyond me. That's just plain ridiculous.

I have no idea if its worth fixing, but, should you decide to have it repaired, I can speak for Audio Classics. They're about 10 minutes from my house and have a great reputation. They have one or two retired McIntosh Engineers on staff, (McIntosh Labs is also local to me), and they repair and ship all over the world.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1421
Registered: Dec-03
definatly make the ups claim though.

you may get the cash and keep a working unit that
needs glass!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1422
Registered: Dec-03
to me my last post would be the best scinereo!

and maybe a blessing in disguise. IF YOU CAN LOOK AT IT THAT WAY!

not trying to make lite of this situation but who knows you might get lucky
and get a free amp!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 326
Registered: Apr-04
I plugged it in and found that it works. In fact, it sounds so great that it would be my "desert island" amp in its current condition - even if given the choice of taking it or the NAD T763. It sounds so great, that my new mission is to make sure I have a McIntosh amp. I'm that certain this soon. And, that's after listening to it through Energy satellite speakers without a sub using an iPod as the source (what about that synerygy McIntosh amp + MacIntosh iPod). Unbelieveable.

Despite the working condition, I have concerns. Not only is the glass face broken but the plastic piece behind it is too. Also, the Mode Selector and Volume controls appear to be bent. They are functional but still bent.

I'll upload pics shortly. Would appreciate advice or feedback. Thanks!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1424
Registered: Dec-03
i still say!

"definatly make the ups claim though.

you may get the cash and keep a working unit that
needs glass!"

if they give you the cash i'm sure you can straighten the knobs
and replace the glass plus the plastic without to much trouble.

at least that is what i would do!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 327
Registered: Apr-04
Here's a shot right after coming out of the box:
Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 328
Registered: Apr-04
Thanks, Kegger. I've already called UPS and they said a claim could be filed - but, because it has been delivered only moments before, the delivery wasn't in their system yet and I have to call them back. I'm not sure if it was insured or not - it cost $43 to ship. If they are willing to settle for a reasonable price, I'll file the claim and keep it and try for the repairs. If not, then I'll work with the seller to either get a refund or get reimbursement for the repair cost.

I'll contact Audio Classics to find out about the repair and whether those bent controls are an issue. You can see from the above picture how the controls on the right seem to recede into the cabinet. I have another shot to upload that is taken from the top view and you can see they are clearly bent. Maybe the chassis is bent too.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 329
Registered: Apr-04
Here's a shot of the knobs:


Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 330
Registered: Apr-04
Here's a "shot in the dark"

Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 433
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

I am truly sad looking at the photo of your Mac. Please take a deep breath and stay calm. I would call Audio Classics and try to get a ballpark estimate to repair the damage. I know a new front glass faceplate runs around $200. If the insurance covers the damage with shipping costs, I would have it done. As long as Audio Classics has the unit, I would have them clean it and check it out. A sort of tune up-for lack of a better phrase. Keep in mind I live in the New York area, so if I can help let me know.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 331
Registered: Apr-04
Thanks, Rick. I'm more saddened and disappointed than upset. This is a minor bump. My goal is to get the amp restored to a suitable condition without having to incur too much of the cost. If I can do that, I'll be happy.

Thanks, guys.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 332
Registered: Apr-04
No insurance. UPS will only cover $100. That was stupid of me not to verify whether it had been insured and whether it was being double-boxed.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 333
Registered: Apr-04
I sent an email to Audio Classics with pics requesting feedback and estimates. Also, sent an email to the seller letting him know what is going on. So far, he has not responded.

Not only was it not double-boxed but he packed the amp in the box the original walnut cabinet came in. No other packing materials, nothing. I'm not even sure that box is strong enough for the weight of the full amp. So, this amp came from California to NC in the walnut cabinet box with no other packing materials. But, he did put a "Fragile - Glass" sticker on it. Nice touch, eh?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1426
Registered: Dec-03
ghia what's the feedback like from the person you
got the amp from?

do they have at least 300 and 98%

if so they are probably respectable ebayers and will want to make restatution.
after trying them and get nowwhere i would contact ebay.
I would give the sellar a couple days to respond before contacting ebay.

and mention to them it was shipped in the box for the walnut case and not the amp.
remember to keep your cool, if you get to agressive you'll be shotdown.

I think ebay has some insurance also. so if you could get the $100 from ups
and maybe $300 from ebay then a couple hundred from the sellar that might do it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1427
Registered: Dec-03
just a thought!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Ghia - Just curious, what did the UPS delivery person do when glass started falling out of the package? Act like they didn't see it? I've never dealt with Ebay, do they have any recourse other than flagging the seller as a stupid jerk? Is there any way you can stop payment?

The face plate and backing piece of plastic should run in the $300 range. They are pieces that need to be replaced by a tech who knows how to accomplish this without breaking the new faceplate. (It's not easy, I broke one trying to install the glass once. It's the feeling of wrecking your new car as you pull out of the dealer's lot.) The knobs are probably $75+ now days. The bigger problem is why are they bent. Though the seller did a lousy job of packing the unit in a box that is not sufficient for the weight of the amp a Mac has to take a pretty good blow to bend the knobs like that. As an example of how rugged a Mac is, the Grateful Dead travelled with Mac MC2300's as their road system. These are amps that are meant to take some rough handling and still work perfectly. As you can tell the working perfectly part is true but the abuse is a serious issue from what your photos show. The chrome trim pieces appear scratched as if the amp was dropped and took the brunt of the fall on one side. I would check with McIntosh to see if they can give you an estimate and possibly direct you to a Mac repair shop in your area. There may still be a Mac dealer with a shop though they are a vanishing breed. Audio Classics is a fine repair center also but I would give Mac a call. Ask about possible damage to the circuit boards from a fall that would do that kind of damage. My guess would be the boards survived without damage (Mac uses a substantial chasis and the front panel is about 12 gauge steel) but there may be solder joints that could give you trouble down the road. Check to see if the Panlocks on the case still work. Push in on the two buttons at the front bottom and you should feel them disengage. At that point the amp will slide forward a few inches and come to a stop. Reach around on each side and there are spring tabs that secure the amp in the case. Push these in and you should be able to slide the amp all the way out of the case. To put the amp back in the case you slide it in the cabinet till the springs catch, then push in the PanLocks and slide it the rest of the way in until you hear it click and it doesn't slide forward anymore.
I'm very sorry you are having these problems. It certainly spoils the idea of having a "new" piece of McIntosh. But, as you have already found out, the Mac is a great piece of equipment. After you listen to how it makes music for a few weeks you will not want to listen to the NAD. Nothing against NAD, I have owned several and have one as my HT processor now, but they sound incomplete when you are used to McIntosh sound.
Good luck with the repairs.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2072
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

Just to say sorry to hear this. I was going to suggest, as Jan did, you contact McIntosh, and ask their advice. It seems like a company that continues to take an interest even after re-sale. I read a lot here about E-Bay but have no experience of it, and I don't think I want to. I am not sure who is liable. But surely it cannot be you. I would predict a dispute between the seller and the delivery service. I am with Kegger, too. A properly repaired amp like that will be as good as new. If the cost of repair is less than the value of the item then it may be a blessing in disguise. I once had a car which was an write-off only because the garage knew they could name any price they liked to fix it. Unfortunately I had no alternative, they had a monopoly. I don't think that will apply in this case. There are skilled electronics workshops around everywhere. There is nothing in an amp that cannot be fixed. The cost will be parts and labour.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1429
Registered: Dec-03
well i am an ebay backer, i use it all the time and have purchased over
200 things from their. they are very concerned with anything bad that
could arise from doing buisiness on there site.

first you try to settle a complaint with the sellar
then if you have to get ebay involded do so.

I have found many excelent deals on ebay.
I allways look to ebay or audiogon for hifi.
with little to no worry about my purchase.
and so far so good excelent stuff with great prices.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2074
Registered: Dec-03
Thanks, Kegger. That is good to know. E-bay is a new "new trick" for this old dog.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 335
Registered: Apr-04
Jan, Kegger, JohnA,

Thank you for the feedback. Here's the little I know.

I had to make payment before the item shipped and did so through Paypal using a credit card. I will check with the credit card company to see if they offer any remedy.

The UPS driver put the package inside my door and left very quickly. I had to call out to him and ask whether there was anything to sign. He said no. I then went to pick up the box and heard a "rattling" sound. I knew that couldn't be good. I placed the box up on its side to try to get a better angle to pick it up and saw some glass fall out of the box. At that point, I ran after the UPS truck and told the driver I thought the item was damaged. He said I should call UPS and file a claim. I called them twice last night and they said the delivery had not been updated in their system and the claim can't be filed until the delivery shows up. I will call later this morning and try again.

The box that was used in shipping is the original box for the walnut case. The buyer had taped the top flaps closed and they were secure. The glass was falling out of the bottom at one flap which was partially open where the box had broken loose from the staple (the original staple in the box's construction.

Inside the box, there was no other packing. No foam inserts, nothing to cushion the weight of the amp. Just cardboard. I'm sorry but it should only take a small amount of logic to understand that a 50lb amp with glass components will break during a cross-country shipping if there are no packing materials to cushion it.

It is a damn shame because this amp was otherwise flawless before shipping. Audio Classics would probably grade this as B1 minimum. They currently have an MA6200 graded C1 for sale for $1099 sans walnut cabinet. I paid $703+ shipping for this one with walnut cabinet so I guess a $300 repair job would keep me within the market value of an amp like this.

I will be contacting eBay today (still no response from seller - he should have gotten my email around 4pm his time yesterday). His ad stated the following:

Seller's payment instructions & return policy:
I guarentee your satisfaction or return the item and I will refund your money less shipping costs.


We'll see about that. He only has 2 feedbacks, both positive. One as a buyer and one as a seller. He's not a dealer.

My eBay experience has been mostly positive. If the seller takes responsibility for his shoddy packing (which I believe is responsible for the damage more so than the UPS's handling) then I'll be satisfied. I don't know how much eBay will assist in this. Most of the remedy info on their site is based on buying something and never receiving it or if the item is not as advertised. I haven't found anything about shipping damages. I'm also not sure who's responsibility it is to insure the package during shipping. Is it my fault for not specifically requesting it? Regardless, if it had been properly packed, it would not have gotten damaged.

Sorry to go on about this. I think I'm more depressed about this today probably due to not getting a good night's sleep.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 336
Registered: Apr-04
Here's a photo of the amp in the box BEFORE it was shipped. This is from the eBay ad and I believe the seller was wanting to show the "original box". What you see is exactly how it was shipped.


Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 337
Registered: Apr-04
Jan,

Thanks for the information. I will also contact McIntosh today.

I will try to slide the amp out per your instructions. Should I go ahead and take the remaining glass out?

I believe this amp was dropped on the right side as you indicated. This likely happened during shipping but the damage could have been prevented if proper packing had been done. Here's a pic of the amp from the eBay ad. There doesn't appear to be any damage to it. Here's another shot of the box before shipping. It clearly states "equipment cabinet" not "integrated amplifier". However, I just noticed the "Glass" sticker on the box so that would have been on there before the seller shipped it to me. I wonder if it had, in fact, been used as a shipping box before? That adds a little twist to this.


Upload
UploadUpload
Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 338
Registered: Apr-04
Audio Classics estimates $200 to replace glass/panel plus $300-400 in repair charges. By the time you add in shipping to/from them, this will exceed the amount I paid on eBay and would put the total cost around $1400 (including the original purchase cost).

I will check with McIntosh and get another company reference and quote. If it comes in at that price, this amp will likely be going back to the seller.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1430
Registered: Dec-03
ghia my oppinion would be if it costs you more than the original amount
you paid on ebay it would be going back to seller!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 339
Registered: Apr-04
Kegger,

I agree. Fortunately, the seller did contact me this morning and appears to be genuinely upset and willing to work with me. I haven't told him yet how much the repairs will cost. I'm getting another quote on the repair cost to see if it is as expensive as what Audio Classics quoted.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 340
Registered: Apr-04
Actually, Audio Classics has an MA 6200 without the walnut cabinet (which is valued around $200) selling for $1099. So, it looks like market value with cabinet might be in the $1300 range. Maybe getting it repaired isn't such a bad deal - but, seller will probably not want to make up that much difference since it equals total cost of the amp.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1431
Registered: Dec-03
ghia i know you put it on the other thread but i wanted to catch you.


{RB FROM ST LOUIS)
lamar gordon just got picked up by miami.
i just put him on my roster might be a stud in disguise get him if you can!

NOW!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Ghia - I would try to take the amp out of the cabinet to check for damage to the chasis. If it slides easily the chasis is probably OK. (Don't be concerned if you have trouble getting the PanLocks to work, they are something that requires practice to make work smoothly. Will they release and lock properly is what you want to know. If the amp will not slide in the tracks you have a problem.) The owner's manual should give more complete instructions on how to work the PanLocks.
My guess would be the "Glass" sticker was probably used for a short trip, maybe moving from house to house, not a trip across thousands of miles. As you have indicated the box for the cabinet was not constructed to accomodate the weight of anything more than the cabinet itself. Mac did double box all of their equipment that weighed more than a few pounds, such as the cabinet. The seller was dishonest in representing the cabinet box as original shipping materials. And I'm certain UPS will tell you it is the ersponsibilty of the seller to provide insurance. The seller was a cheap SOB for not doing that small cost.
I can't tell from the photos but the cabinet seemed to be in good shape when it was packed. If it is damaged you should include that in your repair costs. It is an expensive cabinet and adds to the look of the MA6200 and its resale. I would only remove any glass that is loose and might further damage the cabinet if you ship it for repair. Otherwise leave the big pieces intact and possibly tape over them to secure them during shipping. Some painter's masking tape will do fine without leaving marks or residue. Tightly wrap the unit in plastic to protect it if you ship it.
As you gather information about repair costs and liability I would keep in mind the possibility of the damage to solder joints. It is difficult to assess right now but could become a problem in the future. As I wrote the amp had to take a very severe blow to damage the shafts of the controls. Regardless of how it was packed this amp was not handled well in transit. When we shipped items from the shops I worked at we often sent packages by second day freight. This was on the advice of a client who worked for UPS. He claimed it cut the number of people handling the package from 15 to about 5 on average. Too late for that now but you might keep it in mind when and if you ship the amp for repair. That does get expensive when you are shipping something that weighs as much as Mac amps. But all of this should be considered in your decision to fix or return (if possible) to the seller. I hate to se a nice amp like the 6200 get beat up but at this point you have very little emotional attachment to this amp other than the disappointment of loosing a good deal. There are other 6200's to be had on the market. If you decide to go that route the Mac reciever, MR4200 was the same amp and includes a very good tuner.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 435
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

Great input by Jan. I would be cautious about any repair facility not having Mac experience or knowledge. I would sick with the factory facility or Audio Classics.

I don't know what the seller was thinking shipping the way he did. I hope he makes good for all repairs. If not, there are 2 6200's on Audiogon as we speak.

Good luck and keep us informed.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 341
Registered: Apr-04
Thanks again for the detail info, Jan. Will check the chassis out tonight.

In researching this, it appears the deal I got on eBay was a pretty good value for the pre-shipment condition. I still haven't totally ruled out repairs but am very nervous about the possibility of hidden problems that may not show up at repair time. I have already asked the seller for a refund.

There is another MA-6200 I have my eye on. It is advertised at a higher price and does not include the cabinet. I may offer to purchase the walnut cabinet from the damaged amp (the cabinet sustained some minor glass scratches but is otherwise ok) if I can work out a deal for the other MA-6200.

 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 342
Registered: Apr-04
Thanks, Rick. I've inquired about a 6200 on Audiogon. I only saw one listed but will double-check it in case I overlooked another one.

I'll keep you posted. I spoke to UPS and they will call me within 24 hours to schedule an inspection. I have a feeling they might not even allow a $100 claim when they see how it was packed.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 344
Registered: Apr-04
Speaking of Audiogon and McIntosh, you can get your very own Mink covered MC240 amp. lol. Kegger?
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 345
Registered: Apr-04
The seller is being very cooperative. I suggested sending the amp back to him for a refund minus the UPS claim plus shipping charges. He said to keep the amp and to let him know the difference. My thought, to keep this from being a loss for me and minimizing the loss for him:

- Base repair estimate on the price of $600 -
- Get UPS claim for $100
- Request $500 from seller (he would still have $200 from original sale)
- Use the $600 towards another amp
- Keep the walnut cabinet and put the remains of the existing amp on eBay to sell AS IS.

Is this logical? Is it fair to all parties involved?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1447
Registered: Dec-03
ghia i will give this serious thought then maybe a second
idea for you to consider!

will respond in a few.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 347
Registered: Apr-04
Thanks, Kegger!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 621
Registered: Aug-04
That sounds more than fair to me. Do a deal while the seller is in a cooperative mood and before someone else has a chance to get in his ear. If you are happy then don't hesitate. And don't feel too sorry for the seller who is at fault in this catastrophe!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2075
Registered: Dec-03
Just to say I am away again, for about ten days, this time in Germany and UK. Will drop in briefly if I can. Good luck, Ghia. I hope you will get this sorted out to your satisfaction by the time I get back. What a great thread. All the best to all.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1449
Registered: Dec-03
ok ghia here is my cents of what I would do.

the # figures you have i like.
that way including shipping you pay $250 and get
a working unit with
the walnut case "not to bad"

now i keep the unit, use it while i search for a good deal on the
same exact unit "clean all the glass out".
this way i'm not to impulive to get one right away.

when I get the new one i keep the old one for a parts machine.
as you see how much the parts are for one. how much do you think the
parts inside that unit are worth?

now that is me the tech talking. it should give you longevity
on that unit!

If anything goes wrong with it you have the parts to fix it.
to me you can't beat that. it even makes trouble
shooting easier.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 348
Registered: Apr-04
Kegger, that seems to be a very logical plan. I have no idea how much the parts inside might be worth. Maybe Jan knows?

If you've learned anything about me in the last few months, you will not be surprised to learn I've already negotiated a deal for another MA-6200. So, hopefully, the seller of the damaged unit doesn't back out on his pledge to "make up the difference".

JohnA,

Thank you! I hope you have a safe, enjoyable and fruitful trip. Would love to join you (for the travel experience only, of course!).
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 349
Registered: Apr-04
MR,

Sorry, I didn't mean to overlook your post! That is very sound advice. Hopefully, this will all sort out in the next few days. Thanks!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1450
Registered: Dec-03
ghia your a woman after my own heart!

that was why i wanted to get the post out to you.
because i am just like you and when i want something i want it.

i can't blame you! i may have done the same thing
but was hoping that
maybe having a working unit could tide you over.
i would still keep the old one for it's parts!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1451
Registered: Dec-03
and ghia when i said:

"how much do you think the
parts inside that unit are worth?"

it was just to show you that if the glass and plastic were that
Much you can imagine what the electrical parts are worth.

if you bought the internals seperatly they would
probably be worth 3 times what you had to pay for
a whole working unit.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 350
Registered: Apr-04
Kegger, thanks for clarifying that. I missed the inference about the worth of the inside parts and took it as a literal inquiry.

If I can work out a current snag in the proposed deal, then the "new" amp should ship out next week.

I'm only able to move quickly on this amp since it's kind of a "trade". If I had to put out another $700-800 on it, I'd have to wait - as I'm doing on a turntable and Spendor speakers.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Ghia - Your money exchanges above sound fine if that can be worked out. You will come out ahead by a good margin and the guy that didn't do a good packing job, or insure his package, will possibly learn a lesson.

My position on what to do with the other amp is a little different from Kegger's and is based on my experience with Mac amps. Kegger is correct that some of the parts in the 6200 are valuable items but the problem is the main components that would cost a goodly sum to replace are not items that are likely to wear out from age or use. The majority of the money that goes into a McIntosh amplifier is in the power transformer, the two autoformers that are used for output function (they are connected to the speaker connectors), the chassis and controls. The face plate is expensive because it is individually silk screened and there is no way to speed the automation of that function. The transformers are unlikely to wear out until the amp has many, many more years on it. Rather like caps, letting the amp sit without use is more detrimental to the life of the transformer than if you were using it everyday. So would you likely replace an old transformer with an old transformer? Maybe, but probably not. Besides, the likelyhood of a Mac transformer going out is minimal. My tube amps are over 40 years old now and they show no signs of transformer problems. The autoformers are the same story. The chasis is only going to be damaged by someone who doesn't pack it well for shipment, as you can tell (and apparently the chasis wasn't even damaged from your description of what happened to your unit). The controls will get dirty since they were before electronic switching but the Macs used sealed pots that would go for decades without service and then a little cleaner usualy got them back to order. If the controls are not scratchy now they will be good for many years to come. The controls are probably about $75 each and I can only remember two being replaced while I worked with Mac (over 20 years). Most repair shops didn't even stock Mac controls because they needed to be replaced so infrequently.
The rest of the cost is in small parts that, while not cheap, are not nearly as expensive as the above pieces. The output transistors are the next most expensive piece and they are more expensive than a NAD transistor because of the quality that Mac uses and (mostly) because of the matching to tolerance that Mac does. If you have never blown an output transistor then you aren't likely to start with the Mac particularly with the PowerGaurd circuit on the 6200. The amp should never get hot, you'll notice it has no fan like the NAD's use for cooling. So the life of the output transistors is a long time. After that you are talking basic transistors, capacitors and diodes that aren't very expensive in the scheme of things. (The power supply caps are about $20-30 each and will need replacing at some time, probably in another 15-20 years, but they fall into a category I'll discuss later.) They are all good quality parts but the cost of these pieces is still a few dollars per item at the most expensive. Then there is the fact that McIntosh was, and still is, the most reliable brand of high end product made. Not to say they don't break but there aren't many problems with a Mac (which is one of the reasons people buy Mac) and I have never seen anything catrastrophic happen to a Mac.
What is costly are the repair labor charges. As you can tell from your estimate above the cost of the labor is twice what the cost of parts runs. And it would be difficult to get most techs to put in a part they see as salvage. Techs like to gaurantee that what they put in the first time is going to work properly and not take the chance that an unknown part will go Kaphlooey and take out other parts that hadn't needed repair. I would think most techs wouldn't touch a used part if they could get it new. No tech would replace an old capacitor with another old capacitor since caps will leak with age and an old cap is an invitation to disater. By the time you need to replace the power supply caps in your amp the old caps from this amp will have aged even more from disuse. Other than the transformers, maybe, I don't see you using the parts from this amp as spares. If you can do the repairs yourself, like Kegger can (techs always love to have extra stuff, just in case), then I would say keep the unit. If, on the otherhand, you can't figure out where a problem exists in an amp and need a tech then I don't see you using this amp for spares in the most likely scenario.
That said, if you decide to sell the damaged 6200, let me know. That sounds really bad, as if I'm giving you advice to benefit myself, but, that was not my intention in any of my posts. All my advice to you is to benefit you the most and is based on what I see as the best advice I can give. I can do the repairs myself and the damaged amp would probably work out for me. I don't know that I really need it but it might work for both of us. If you would rather sell it on Ebay I have no problem with that decision.
So that's my best advice as I see your situation. I hope your deal for another amp works out well. You will truly enjoy the Mac sound.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1463
Registered: Dec-03
oh that's it jan just shoot me down! lol

I guess when i think about it i'm coming from the
standpoint of a tech and it's easier to troubleshoot
with a working unit!

not to mention I would fix it myself.

and i'm glad you offered to buy the old unit so i didn't have to. lol

as i need no more amps, just got 2 more, another st-70 and se-40!

so ghia jan is more than likely correct!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Yes, if you're doing the reapir yourself and are having problems tracking down a voltage or so forth a second, working unit is nice to have for reference. If the work is going to be done by a qualified tech, particularly McIntosh's or Audio Classics' shop, the tech should have a schematic and a pretty good working knowledge of what to look for and where to find it. There aren't strange, one of a kind problems with Mac that I've ever seen.

So, Kegger, how many tube amps and pre amps do you have now? What is running and what are you using? What shape are the latest amps in? And when does the all tube 7.1 system get fired up?
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 351
Registered: Apr-04
Jan,

As always, brilliant! Thank you for laying those details out in such a clear, concise manner.

The deal for the new 6200 is still on so it should ship next week. UPS didn't call me today to schedule the inspection so I have to follow up with them. I want to schedule the inspection for Tuesday since I'm off work that day anyway. Hopefully, by mid-week the old amp issues will be settled and the new amp will be on its way (double-boxed and insured which I told the seller was a condition for me buying it - sent him a photo to show what can happen if it isn't properly packed) and the dust will have cleared enough to make a decision on what to do next.

I used to build computers so I wouldn't be scared to dig into an amp and figure out what's going on. Of course, it would be a learning process for me. But, years ago, after I had built my last computer for a friend of the family, I took the remaining spare parts (2400 baud modem, anyone?) and threw them in a dumpster. I was tired of the frustration and the parts laying around. Eventually, I whittled my own computers down to an HP desktop and a Dell laptop which gave way to the only computer I own now, a Macintosh (!) Powerbook. The moral of this story: I'd rather listen to an amp than repair one.

 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 352
Registered: Apr-04
Jan, if you want the damaged amp I would much rather sell it to you than to someone on eBay. Feel free to send me an email with an offer and we'll get something arranged.

BTW, I planned to open it up last night and examine the internal condition...but, curiosity got the best of me and I tested it out with the NAD cd player and the B&W and Monitor Audio speakers. Perhaps, I'll be able to articulate a decent response in the near future. But, for now, let's say I understand what Rick meant when he talked about "velvet background" and "soul" to describe his experience. Frankly, when I first read that, I wondered what Rick was smoking (and maybe wished I had some...lol). But now I understand. I have been converted and saved! Thank you, Brother Jan!, Thank you, Brother Rick!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 437
Registered: Dec-03
Can we get an AMEN! (LOL!)
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 624
Registered: Aug-04
Bless you all!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 438
Registered: Dec-03
Thank you Rantz. I need all the help I can get. (LOL!)
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 626
Registered: Aug-04
Hey Rick - don't we all my friend!

Now I hope you're feeling contrite for all the problems you've created for Ghia :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 353
Registered: Apr-04
Miracles abound! My BF is here right now listening with me. I put on a song that is a mutual favorite (but is not "our" song), Jack Johnson's "Bubble Toes". We lay on the bed (this is PG-rated) and listened. When the song ended, he turned to me, smiled and said "damn!" Remember, this is the moron (he's reading as I type so I want to get my point across) who thinks getting new tires and bedroom furniture is more important than getting a new turntable and Spendor speakers. He notices how incredible this sounds.

For me, I'm realizing I'm hearing music for the first time. There hasn't been a single second where I've thought about a possible tweak (other than comparing the B&W with the Monitor Audio's). I now understand what is meant when people describe a component as being "musical". There's no other way to describe this. You are hearing music, pure and simple. This is what it is all about. A simple, good amp, a good source and a "pair" of good speakers. That's all you need if your amp is a Mac. Surround has the gee whiz factor going for it. But, this is a revelation. And yes, there's a sense of a soul presence emanating from the amp. Freaky, man!

For what it's worth, the MA's match up with the Mac better than the B&W's. Rick, the Spendors will have to be pretty incredible to take this to another level.

Back to the music....
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Am I to understand there are now several folks on this thread that are spending time listening to two channel stereo? That was the original point of this thread.

"Posted (by John A.) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:52 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On April 25, on the "Receivers" thread Frustrated with NAD T762, Jan Vigne made what was probably intended to be a throw-away remark.

'As an aside, am I the only one who thinks music almost always sounds better when you listen just in stereo. How old I feel.'"

John, where are you, John?

Ghia - I'm very happy to hear you are enjoying the Mac sound. Be careful, it grows on you and other amps just don't sound right after you get accustomed to a McIntosh. Next thing you know you'll want Mac tubes to make the next leap.
Where and how did you set the system up for your audition with the BF? Did you spend any time getting things set correctly or just plug things in and see what happened?
Have you posted you eMail address anywhere on the forum? As an unregistered guest I can't send a message through the forum, and I prefer to stay with my guest status (I don't get to be a guest all that often anymore). And becoming a member would move me over a notch toward the right on John's Political Compass. That is definitely something I don't want to have happen.
I saw the picture of the mink covered MC240. My amps used to look like that after my cat got done laying on them. I think I've mentioned he jumped onto one of my amps once when the cage was off and broke a tube. 450 volts of DC from the plates convinced him to stay away.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 439
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

I am so happy this all worked out for you. I can already tell that you have grasped exactly what I meant regarding the Mac sound. The Mac just gets out of the way and presents the music. And yes, the Spendors will take you to the next level. You are half way to snatching the pebble, "Grasshopper". (LOL!)
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 627
Registered: Aug-04
Gaddamn - now I'm imagining this silly box thing with knobs on the front with little feet and hands as it moves 'out of the way' and says, "Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the music."

Then I hear the audience shout, "Just get on with it, Mac!"

And just before the 'music' starts, an eerie feeling pervades the room, hair tingles the backs of necks, there's a feeling of tremendous anticip . . .

Suddenly this spendorifous sound escapes from each of two tiny little boxes near the corners of the front of the room. It's . . . it's . . . it's music . . . . . real . . . . music . . . . . unbelievable, incredible music!

The music is so real I can see it. It's floating around me, over me, through me. I'm gonna freak out! Nothing on earth can sound this good. I must be dying and this is heaven.

Oh Lordy!


:-) . . . :-) . . . :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1464
Registered: Dec-03
jan i'll post a full update in a few! and yes it
will be tube amp 7.1 in the near future.

ghia as i and rick have stated in the past the sounds "you" are
hearing is the same thing i tried to describe when i first heard
the tube preamp. now that i'm running tube amps it's gone up 5x that!
now not only does it sound more "musical" but voices and instruements
take on a whole new presence they sound more live
than a recording.

what i mean by musical is it makes you want to toe tap or sing along
or even paints you a picture of joy! your just into it so much more!

now jan don't read to much into my enjoying 2channel!
I'm enjoying the sounds that are emenating from these tube jobbies.
but i love surround, so yes i will be going tube surround
if tubes can do this for my 2channel and i like surround better
then i have to go tube surround to do myself justice!

ghia like jan said you'll have to try tubes next!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Ghia - Turntable, speakers AND tubes? You're going to have to find a second job for the BF so he can buy some tires and furniture.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 354
Registered: Apr-04
Kegger wrote "but voices and instruements
take on a whole new presence they sound more live
than a recording."

Yes, that's a perfect description. It felt like the Jayhawks, Tift Merritt, Jack Johnson, Cowboy Junkies, Jolie Holland and India Arie were in the bedroom with us. YEP. We listened to all of that last night and 2 of the discs, we played through twice.

This is totally different than anything experienced with the surround system. With it, I always thought "this sounds great" and felt what I was hearing had an open soundstage. But, I didn't grasp some of the concepts I've heard from others. For instance, an "open soundstage" to me meant it didn't sound like it was coming out of a box. Last night, for the first time, I was hearing the space between the instruments. In the India Arie recording, I could hear every instrument distinctly and believed I could walk between the pianist, the bass player, and the guitarist if only I could see them. This is odd to me because I thought this element was more a function of the speakers than the amp. But, these new sounds were coming from the same speakers I used with the NAD.

MR, might be right. Maybe I am dead and in heaven right now.

Jan, the original debate might get stirred up again. More later.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 355
Registered: Apr-04
What a beautiful day! After a week of oppressive humidity, heavy rainfall, floods and tornadoes, I went outside this morning to sunshine, bright blue sky, crisp air and a comfortable 72 degrees. I'm sure the Mac had something to do with this.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2076
Registered: Dec-03
Great stuff guys. Jan wrote "John, where are you, John". I am in Germany. But I am following this with keen interest. When Kegger or someone gets an all-MAc or all-tube 5.1 system then we will be able to compare like with like, and be back to square one, and the original topic of the thread. I have always delighted in stereo. I have become more interested in getting a good stereo valve/tube amp next year. It seems eveyone agrees amps do make a difference. Gregory was lead doubting Thomas on this issue and made good points, but these informed opinions here are worth a lot, and anyone with sense will listen.

Must go. All the best.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2077
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia, Rick, Jan,

Can you give us brief paper specs (e.g. rated power) and model numbers on the McIntosh amps you have just so we know exactly what is what. Only Jan's is a tube/valve, is this correct? Are they all integrated stereo amps? I have lost track of the various units. I am sure I am not alone. People on the amps and receivers threads worry a lot about things on paper. And it's all you have if you cannot audition, which must be true for most "legacy" equipment.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 356
Registered: Apr-04
MR,

I'm re-reading your post now that I'm fully awake. Hysterical! LOL!

Rick,

Hmmm, snatching the pebble (Grasshopper)? A google search shows references to Kung Fu?

Jan, my email address is ghiacabriolet at hotmail.com.

 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 357
Registered: Apr-04
JohnA,

Good point. Kegger will have to host a listening party when he gets his 7.1 tube system going.

I believe Rick's amp is solid state (Mac's first?) and I know mine is. Here are specs on the amp I have:

MA 6200 Integrated Amplifier

ELECTRICAL: 100w/ch at 4 ohms, 75w/ch at 8 ohms. Response 20-20kHz (+0 -0.5dB). Distortion 0.05%. Noise and hum -95dB high level, -85dB low level re 10mV. Damping factor 30. Power amp noise -100dB. Input sensitivity and impedance: high level 0.25V at 100k, phono 2.0mV at 47k and 100pF, power amp 2.5V at 22k. Tape output 0.25V. Program equalizer: 30, 150, 500, 1500 and 10,000Hz boost or cut 12dB. Power Guard.

FRONT PANEL: Glass panel. Illuminated.. Loudness: flat to max, Balance, Equalizer frequency: 30, 150, 500, 1500 and 10k. Volume. Input selector: aux 1, aux 2, tuner, phono 1 and, phono 2. Mode selector: L to L+R, R to L+R, stereo rev, stereo, mono (L+R), L+R to L and L+R to R. Pushbutton switches with indicator lights: tape mon 1, tape mon 2, tape copy 1 to 2 and 2 to 1, Speakers: 1, 2 and 3, power. Power guard lamps: normal and limit. Headphone jacks. Tape 2 in and out jacks.

BACK PANEL: Push terminals for speakers 1, 2 and 3. Jumper: preamp out and amp in. Outputs: tape 1 and tape 2. High level inputs: aux 1, aux 2, tuner, tape 1, tape 2. Low level inputs: ph 1, ph 2. Ground binding post. Turntable switch: auto or on. AC outlets: 3 switched, 2 switched (turntable auto-on). Fuses: turntable and main. Panloc mounting.

Size 5-7/16"H, 16"W and 13"D. Weight 30 lbs. Sold from 1978-1991. Last retail price $1899.00
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 358
Registered: Apr-04
One other anecdote about last night's listening session. The NAD cd player was beaten down by this amp. Around midnight, Mr. B put the Jolie Holland cd in. Nothing happened. Just flashing dashes. Powered down and back on. Nothing. Switched cd's. Nothing. We powered it off for 5 minutes. Still nothing. A gentle smack on the side. Nothing. A gentle smack on the top. Nothing. Powered off and back on. Finally. Something. I guess it just needed a 10 minute break. lol!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1465
Registered: Dec-03
good stuff ghia.

as like you said many probably thought rick and i were crazy!
describing what these sounded like for us.

and jan has been defending all along!
now we just need john and rantz LOL!

I agree the amps make more of a difference in the quality of sound
then many realize, but you do need some good quality speakers
to play that through!

as youv'e seensome speakers still work better with certain equipment.

JOHN: glad to see your with us from afar_ther!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1479
Registered: Dec-03
JAN i'm still in the experimenting stage with the amps so i'm
not sure where each will end up but!

i've got

3 st70's 1 modded 1 stock and 1 needs a rebuild.
2 se-40's 1 modded and 1 stock.
1 rogue eighty-eight.

all pretty much have new tubes.

I am currently biamping the jbl's with the modded
st-70 on the mid and tweets then the modded se-40
is on the bass driver. then their is a pair of 10"
subs 1 on each side powered by 2 channels of the
rotel amp all coming from the dared tube preamp
split 3 times.

now the dared preamp has 2 inputs with a switch 1
input comes from the sacd\dvd-a player and the other
input comes from the preouts of the h/k reciever.

a friend is using the rogue amp on his ariel's and loves the sound,
he is now going tube amps too.

I am thinking of getting the rotel 1068 prepro then running all
tube amplification. or the b&k ref. 50 prepro.

now the rest of the speakers on my surround are either
jbl or klipsch with fairly high sensativity so the tube amps
should be fine.

any thoughts?

oh and i have plenty of high powered solid state amps left for the subs
in the surround mode.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 628
Registered: Aug-04
Kegger,

The one thing I've learnt regarding these Macs and tube amps etc is that I'm determined not to listen to any of them!

Why you ask? Because I've spent a heap of money on our system, and I wish to maintain my feeling of contentment!

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1481
Registered: Dec-03
rantz I can truly understand that buddy!

if I was married,maybe had some kids or was a little tighter
for money i would be in the same boat!

and I spend way to much cash on this "obsession"
but i say HEY YU ONLY LIVE ONCE!

and I just refinanced my house which gave me a little extra money!

 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 440
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

My apologies. The "grasshopper" quote would only make sense to someone 50 something, who remembers the television series. If you don't know the show, you won't get the humor in the quote.

However, it was meant as a compliment, because you are starting to really hear the music, instead of the system reproducing it.

Cheers!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 359
Registered: Apr-04
Rick,

No apologies necessary and Thank you. I figured this was another pop culture reference of which I'm woefully unaware. :-)

Jan,

In regards to your inquiry "Did you spend any time getting things set correctly or just plug things in and see what happened?" - I just plugged it in. Right now, the amp and cd player are sitting on a window seat, the speakers are on unspiked, undamped (? i.e.no kitty litter) stands. The only tweaking I did was to toe the speakers in towards the listening point. Heck, even the listening position was wrong - we were lying flat on our backs. This is a temporary situation as I think I'll be sitting up a listening area in the home office for this system. Unless, it ends up in the living room....where the main system is....for now. lol.

Funny story about the cat getting jolted. I need something like that on the corner of my sofa for when Leonardo uses it as a scratching post. He'll be declawed soon, anyway.

So, is the mink covered amp a joke or is there some kind of merit to this? Is this another audiophile tweak?
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Here's a picture of my MC240 as it came from the factory:

http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=MC240&nav=cat

It is a straight power amplifier that was current when the C22 tube pre amp was current. It was the baby brother to the famous MC275. The amp was available as a mono amplifier also, the MC40. Its production dates ran from the early to late 1960's. The original MC275 ran all the way to 1975 before the final switch to solid state. The MC275 has been reintroduced twice and is back in current production. My amplifiers sold for $288 new, the MC275 was $449. You could buy a new Chevrolet Impala for around $2,000 fully loaded at that time, a nice house sold for around $12,000 (50% down payment). My father was working at Sears for, I would guess, about $600-700 a month. Mac has always been Doctor/Lawyer HiFi.

I have two MC240's. They are wired internally for monoblock operation. They have been modified slightly but retain the overall Mac design. Both my amps have cages over the tubes. The amp uses 6L6GC/KT66 output tubes which are beam power pentodes running in a push pull circuit. They were rated at 40 watts @ 0.5% THD, power bandwidth is 10 - 100k Hz. At the last Mac clinic, before I wired them internally for mono, both amps tested at 48 watts per channel; and, at 40 watts they run at 0.15% THD and they can do a good looking 20k Hz and 100 Hz square wave.

I also have a Mac tube tuner. Here's a picture of it:

http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=MR71&nav=cat

There isn't a solid state tuner that sounds as good as tubes and Mac and the Marantz 10B are the benchmarks for classic tube tuners. My tuner has the walnut cabinet similar to the cabinet Ghia has on her amp. Unfortunately FM in Dallas is not worth the cost of a good tuner.

Rick - Googling "Grasshopper". How old I feel.

Kegger - Where be the EICO? Are you going to use the ST70's, in monoblock fashion, as your front three amps on surround or are you going to wire one in triode operation?

Ghia - I know of no reason to wrap a tube amp in mink. I would guess this is similar to wrapping a '67 Cadillac Eldorado convertible in mink. Just because you can!

 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 441
Registered: Dec-03
JohnA.,

My McIntosh MA-6100 integrated amp was their first all solid state integrated. It was produced from 1972-1977. I best I can tell from the serial #, it is circa 1974. Ghia's MA-6200, is the model that replaced it.

The main differences between the two are:
no Power Guard on the 6100
70 watts per channel
2 (sets) speaker terminals
1 aux input

Let me share a little info that is printed in the original user manual for the MA-6100.

Performance Guarantee

Performance limits are the maximum deviation from perfection permitted for a McIntosh instrument. We promise you that the MA-6100 you buy must be capable of performance at or exceeding these limits or you get your money back. McIntosh is the only manufacturer that makes this guarantee.

Performance

McIntosh audio power ratings are in accordance with the FTC regulation of 11/04/74 concerning power output claims for amplifiers used in home entertainment products.

Gee Jan, do you think this may have something to do with the fact that this stuff is still working beautifully, AND, that 30 years later it is still selling for or close to what is was when new?

I think we all owe the "Old Dog" from Dallas, a debt of sincere gratitude for opening our eyes and ears.

He snatched the pebble years before we did! (LOL)
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Don't know about the pebble, I've been told I have rocks in my head. But that was by a manager and we all know how much they know.
Yes, the McIntosh way of building equipment has been their trademark for five decades and there just aren't many companies in the audio world that can claim that distinction.
What you see on Rick's post is pretty much what every Mac salesperson was taught to use as a selling tool. What got some shops and Mac into some disputes was that they guarantee this performance for the life of the unit. If your Mac gear ever fails to meet spec, Mac will bring it up to spec as part of their guarantee of performance.
In the days of tubes this was an impossibilty to maintain since, as the tubes would age, the amp, pre amp or tuner couldn't meet spec unitl new tubes were installed.
From the early 60's Mac used to run what were called Mac Clinics at every dealer in the country at least once a year. A gentleman named Davey O'Brian travelled around the country with his test gear as the dealers sent out flyers announcing his coming. (Davey was the rock star of McIntosh.) On the appointed day there would be dozens of Mac owners lined up outside the store when the doors opened and they all had their Mac equipment with them. Tables were set up to place the equipment upon while waiting your turn to get up close with Davey. (You didn't want to stand around holding a McIntosh amp for very long.) It was always quite a sight to see fifty or sixty pieces of Mac lined up, some shining like the owner washed, waxed and polished the amp before handing it to Mr. O'Brian. Some looked like they had just come from the factory shipping crate and some looked like Ghia's mink wrapped MC240. There were the people who took great pride in their gear, those who put it in a cabinet or built into a system wall and those who bought it - put it in use and never expected it to fail and forgot it.
As the units were checked the owner stood at Davey's side and he explained what he was doing and what it meant to the performance of the gear. At the end you were handed a printed booklet that gave you the performance of your unit (which some people kept in a folder and brought with them every year [we are talking Doctors and lawyers, rather obsessive types liked Mac for their own reasons; not too different from a lot of audiophiles])a plug for Mac's newest gear and a handshake from Davey. If your unit failed to meet spec, up until about 1977, Davey would reach in his bag and pull out a new tube, put it in your unit and recheck to confirm the new specs and hand you back a perfectly working piece of McIntosh. Tubes were replaced free of charge - Mac guaranteed performance!
The problem arose when salespeople (those deviuos b*stards) started telling clients their Mac gear was guaranteed for the life of the unit. That is not Mac's policy, it is guaranteed performance to spec. That was eventually sorted out and I hope no Mac salesperson tells a client anything differently today. Too many squabbles have come up to let someone say anything different.
Eventually the price of tubes got too high for Mac to replace tubes for free. The tuners weren't tested after the late 70's because Davey had only so much he could carry and as Mac changed to solid state tuners they tried to move people to buying a new tuner. (Not many people bought that idea.)
After Mac stopped replacing tubes on site, if there was a problem, your unit was sent to the repair shop (almost all Mac dealers at the time had repair shops on site in those days) and, depending on the problem, was returned in a few minutes to a few days working as good as new.
Everyone who left the clinic with their performance booklet in hand left with a smile on their face. They had gotten their money's worth out of their purchase. It was almost like getting a new amp every year.
Davey retired in the late 80's and there are no longer Mac Clinics and Mac dealers no longer have repair shops on site. I saw that Davey passed away not too long ago.
The way audio is sold has changed a lot since I started in the 70's. But the way Mac treated their customers in the "old" days established the feeling of quality that is the primary reason Mac has survived with a reputation that has never been tarnished.
Frank McIntosh and Gordon Gow were the founders of McIntosh. Mr. Gow took over after Mr. McIntosh passed away and ran the company the same way for the next twenty years. After Gordon Gow died in the mid 90's the company was sold to the Craig company from Japan. (Those old dogs out there know Craig as the company that made the eight track player you had in your '69 Mustang.) Everyone thought Mac was headed for the same fate as Scott, Emerson and Marantz. They had all been bought by the Japanese after the company's founder had retired and they had all become mass market junk that used a once famous name to sell to unsuspecting people. (Marantz was owned in the 70's by SuperScope, a division of Sony that made table radios and toasters with TV's built in. By the way have you seen the LG refrigerator with the built in TV/monitor? Old dogs know better!) The suspicion was the Japanese company wanted the rights to Mac's old tube designs. McIntosh tubes were selling for outrageous amounts of money in Japan. Ken Kessler of HiFi news did a report on a trip to Japan and printed pictures of rows of Mac tube amps shrink wrapped and lined up like fish in the market. Hundreds of old McIntosh and Marantz tube amps went to Japan in the 70's and 80's. The recession of Japan's economy is the only thing that slowed the drain in the 90's. Suspicions were aroused when Craig/McIntosh reintroduced the Gordon Gow Commemorative Edition MC275 tube power amp and C22 tube per amp. Both were limited editions and sold all the stock before they were actually built. These two units are now part of the used market and demand higher prices than when they were produced. The MC275 has just been reintroduced and has again sold out its first year run before production was completed. Suprisingly Mac has not only retained its market value since the purchase (Craig has let the company be what it always was [quite admirable])but has regained a position of importance in the high end market. Most imortantly McIntosh has always sounded the "same", an old Mac sounds very much like a new Mac. McIntosh looks to have a few more decades of life in the company existing at the top of the heap all the while. That's good news for all of us who own Mac since it only makes our investment better. Like Stickley furniture and Waterford crystal someone now owns the company that really cared for the company.
Now, Kegger, about all those tubes - you must be able to read by the glow of all those little bottles.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 442
Registered: Dec-03
I figure Kegger will save somewhere around $1400 on heating costs this winter.(LOL)
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2078
Registered: Dec-03
Still here. Reading with pleasure. Thanks for Mac details, J, GC, R. Thanks for the good wishes, Keggger. No time to post. Will do when I get back. This is the second hotel in Germany (even former GDR) with wireless radio internet connection. Amazing. Loved the Mac Clinics story, Jan. All the best.
 

Marc C
Unregistered guest
Wowww...great thread.

Jumped in just now as Mr. Vigne pulled myself and probably a few others by the ear from the Integrated section with a "Look here kids..." motion. (Just after I posted a Creek v. Arcam question/thread - talk about now feeling silly.)

Rick B,

Very thrilled to hear about your success. Been following from the beginning. Wishing you much enjoyment and many thanks for sharing your victory. A revelation for you is a revelation for us.

Ghia,

That is one rough story and hope things have or will iron out. (Those first few pictures of that MAC made my stomach drop. Then I couldn't help but laugh out loud at the picture of it plugged in. Looked like a great big mug Cheshire Grinning thru smashed teeth. Busted teeth - but still smilin'!)

Kegger,

What a project! Some small part of me hopes it will fail miserably as success will trigger an avalanche of new madness - everyone scrambling for 5 tube amps, trying to make them happen...

Look forward to reading results...god help us all.

J. Vigne,

Thanks once again for yet another "What's What" lesson.

Old dogs have great ears...

*scrambling back to my small corner*

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Marc C. - Welcome to the thinking side of the forum. As you can see those of us who inhabit this small space do more than talk about which cable will sound best with which reciever. We are all old dogs and grasshoppers here. An occassional nun wanders through but they are talked about more than heard.
Hope you found/find something useful and out of the ordinary here. There are some things that get forgotten in the haze of youth and the old dogs are here to shout about them. Join in if you want or just read along. This is the best thread on the forum.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1489
Registered: Dec-03
....................Y E P.................
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 360
Registered: Apr-04
Jan, Kegger,

No tubes for me. I'm not even going to allow myself to get tempted. Once I get the turntable and try out the Spendor speakers (Rick they have to be REALLY good to surpass the MA's IMO) I'm done buying audio equipment. And, I mean it this time. lol
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