System recommendations please
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New member Username: Koj11Post Number: 1 Registered: Jul-04 | There seems to be some very knowledgeable people here, so I'm hoping to get some good ideas. I'm replacing the system in my 99 Sierra. The only thing I've done so far is replace the factory deck with a pioneer one. The new deck puts out 25 x 4 watts rms. I'm not looking for competition level sound, I just want some nice clean, strong sound. Here are the options I am considering... I am pretty much decided on Infinity Kappas for the front doors. I want to put them in the factory locations to keep as stock a look as possible. I will run them with an amp no matter what speakers I choose, but I'm so far undecided if I should get 3-ways or 2-way components. My rear pillars take a 4 x 6 speaker. I was considering the Infinity Kappa 4 x 6 plates for these locations. Last but not least, the final component will be an MTX Thunderform box for under the rear seat. It comes with 2 10" downfiring subs, a built in amp, and retains the nice clean factory look I want to stay with. Here is where I am really undecided. Should I go with coaxials or components up front? I am a little concerned that maybe components won't sound too good in the factory locations that are somewhat low on the doors. If I go with components, should I run them with a 2 channel amp and just leave the factory 4x6 speakers running off the deck's power in the back or would it be better to get a 4 channel amp and run the front and Kappa 4x6 speakers in the rear all off of that? I could also use some suggestions on an amp (2 or 4 channel depending on what way you might think I should go). I'd like to stay at $200 or less on the amp if possible (ebay prices, not retail). Thanks for taking the time to read this, and I'm looking forward to everyone's opinions. |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 109 Registered: Jun-04 | The Kappa Perfect components are an excellent set for the money. Mounting the tweeter in a separate, higher spot in the door will not be a major chore and will sound several times better than co- or triaxials. All you need is a 1" hole saw and about 10 minutes. Regarding the 4x6 spots, I personally would just leave them empty. You won't be able to get anything complimentary in that spot and will only detract from your sound stage. You can't use the Infinity 4x6 plates without a separate amp because the power draw is too high for the HU and too low for a 4-channel amp with the fronts. For an amp, I'd recommend the Hifonics Zeus ZX4000 -- another good deal with exactly the power you need ($129 on eBay). -Matt |
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New member Username: Koj11Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-04 | I really don't want to cut holes in my door panels. I'm way too chicken for that. Restricted to the factory locations lower in the door panels, would you still go with components over say Kappa 3-ways? |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 110 Registered: Jun-04 | Well, that really kills the purpose of separates, i.e., if you're not going to separate them. Most coaxials are better than full-range drivers, but there's no way you're going to have a "nice clean sound" as you alluded to in your first post. With coaxials in the doors and 4x6 plates in the rear, your soundstage will be right around your rump. -Matt |
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New member Username: Koj11Post Number: 3 Registered: Jul-04 | So it's your opinion there is no way to get nice clean quality sound with speakers of any sort in any combination of the factory locations? If so, what sort of setup (again, using the factory locations) do you believe would get me the closest? |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 113 Registered: Jun-04 | You have two distinct problems: 1. The forward factory mounts are too low to move the soundstage to the windshield (where it's supposed to be). I wasn't kidding about the setup you proposed - it sound like the music is coming from waist-level behind you. 2. You refuse to modify anything, so to use components you'd have to find an odd-sized driver (5"), a normal-sized tweeter (1") and custom-make adapter plates for the 6 1/2" opening. Even then, an omni-directional tweeter only goes so far and will be firing across the cab. You would, at that point, have spent as much as having a pro installer make two tweeter mounts for you in the appropriate locations. Using coaxials is only going to get you from a D-grade, stock system to a C-grade system. It'll be pretty much what you have now but louder and a little more clear. Properly mounted, good components will get you to a B-grade. Custom dash-and-door mounted 3-way components would get you an A. The choice is yours. -Matt |
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New member Username: Koj11Post Number: 4 Registered: Jul-04 | Wow that's depressing... So a person can't have a nice sounding system without cutting holes in their interior... I'm not very excited about this whole thing any more... |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 3775 Registered: Dec-03 | not when you want it in a truck, and particularly a truck with lousy factory speaker locations. I don't think audio was at the front of their minds at GMC when they designed their trucks. Funny thing, that. |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 115 Registered: Jun-04 | GlassWolf's right; it's not so bad in a car where the vertical difference between the door mounts and the driver's ear is only about 18". But in a truck, you're looking at 30"+, which means that most of the time you'll be hearing reflections and the sound coming from the opposite speaker. Two 1" holes are not a big deal, and component tweeters generally come with very nice-looking mounting covers. -Matt |
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New member Username: Koj11Post Number: 5 Registered: Jul-04 | How would a person know where the optimun placement might be before starting to cut stuff up? Is there a website or something where a person could see examples of how it might look in similar vehicles? The reason I'm so hesitant to start making holes is because I'd hate to look at it afterwards and think it looked cheap or crappy and then be stuck with it. |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 117 Registered: Jun-04 | It depends on the tweeter, some are designed for off-axis (i.e., dash-mount) or on-axis (i.e., door mount) placement. This information is generally in the Owners Manual (most are downloadable online) as diagrams and sometimes with precise information (i.e., 20" from the driver's left ear). The Kappas are designed to be on-axis and about 1 foot below your head; the closer you put them to your ear, the more you will want to make use of the tweeter attenuator on the crossover. Realize that there's virtually no way you can make this look crappy, unless you have issues holding a drill straight for 4-5 seconds. A 1.75" hole saw bit ($5) will cut through that vinyl like butter. The tweeters have slightly oversized mounting caps (1/8") to cover the hole completely. -Matt |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 3784 Registered: Dec-03 | just take the car to a professional installer and have him do the work. that way it's warrantied, and you have someone cutting the holes with the knowledge and experience to do it right. |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 118 Registered: Jun-04 | Correction, here: the Kappas are designed to be 1' below and at least 1' in front of your head. Their suggested kickpanel mount really only works for short cars or Q-Forms (IMHO). -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 119 Registered: Jun-04 | GlassWolf is probably right. -Matt |
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New member Username: Koj11Post Number: 6 Registered: Jul-04 | where did you find that specefic placement info? I looket at the owner's manual on Infinity's website and it doesn't have that information. |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 123 Registered: Jun-04 | That specific info is from 3 separate installs of them, including meticulous placement of my own. Infinity does show the kickpanel mounts, but those won't be applicable to your truck. -matt |
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New member Username: Koj11Post Number: 7 Registered: Jul-04 | Ok, I will be talking to a local shop to get ideas for the tweeter placement. I have just a couple more questions if you'll indulge me just a bit longer. The sub box I'm putting in is an mtx thunderform box. It has 2 10" downfiring subs that will take 200 watts rms @ 4 ohms each. What would be a good amp to push these? Is there any advantage to staying with an mtx amp to run mtx subs? Last question... At what point does one need to start worrying that they are using too much power and need to check into a heavier duty alternator or some other means of getting more juice? Maybe this isn't as much of a concern for me as we're talking about a full size truck that has heavier duty stuff than a small car would anyways? Thanks again for any advice you can give me. |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 144 Registered: Jun-04 | There is no advantage to sticking with one manufacturer between power & drivers. Companies that make good drivers often make not-so-good amps (Infinity being the prime example). Most people match the amps for aesthetic purposes. Your best option would be to get a class D mono amp for the subs. Subs are such reactive loads that can demand a lot of power in an instant, so efficiency is more important than a lot of the factors that go into full-range amps. Next option is to hook 'em up to a bridgeable amp at 4 ohms/channel. The Hifonics Zeus ZX4400 is 220Wx2 bridged and goes for $175 on eBay. If you're already getting the ZX4000 for the front set, that just makes sense. The last option is to wire them in parallel and present a 2-ohm load. But it'll cost you a lot more to find a 2-ohm stable bridged class AB amp. -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 145 Registered: Jun-04 | Regarding power, you'll probably want at least one 1F cap, just in case. Beyond that, your truck has a 102A alternator, which is somewhat better than most cars. As always, see what happens once you get it hooked up before making the decision to get a new alternator. You probably won't listen to the music loud enough to make a difference. However, fortunately for you, a 130A alternator is a commonly-available option for that truck and is only $150 (a good chunk less than the $250+ for a typical car). -Matt |
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New member Username: Koj11Post Number: 8 Registered: Jul-04 | The subs are only rated for 200 watts rms. would I need to worry about blowing them if I fed them the 220 watts from the ZX4400? |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 146 Registered: Jun-04 | 220W is still well within spec for 200W RMS. However, now that I look at the MTX site, it says 2x225W. Who told you 200Wx2? -Matt |
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New member Username: Koj11Post Number: 9 Registered: Jul-04 | I saw that in an ad for them. I can't remember which site it was on, but I guess that's what I get for not looking at the manufacturer's information. Well that's that for the amp choice then. Perfect! Thanks a bunch. What's your take on the whole power issue? Do you think running all that on the stock electrical equipment will be sufficient? |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 147 Registered: Jun-04 | I really don't think you'll have a problem as long as you don't have other gadgets in the truck. That's a decent alternator already, and your "average" draw won't be but 5-10A. I'd put the cap in just to make sure things stay smooth (no pops or drains when the A/C comes on). -Matt |
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New member Username: Koj11Post Number: 10 Registered: Jul-04 | Thanks. I really appreciate all the help. |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 11 Registered: Jul-04 | Ok, here's where I'm at now. I've got everything on the way and will hopefully be able to get it installed in the next few weeks. I did go with the 6.1 perfects for the doors. They will be powered by a Hifonics zx4000. I also went with the Hifonics zx4400 pushing the 10's in the thunderform box. This leads me to my next question. I will be having a local shop install the components, and I'll be putting the tweeters high up on the doors. This is my first component setup, so I'm not sure about what setting to use on the crossovers. Is it a personal preferance type of deal where you need to listen to it at different settings to see what sounds good to the individual, or is it set more depending on speaker placement or some other factor? |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 211 Registered: Jun-04 | That's a great setup -- I'm sure you'll be amazed by the difference. Those Perfect tweets are pretty bright, so you'll probably want the crossover at the -4dB position to get started. If you find the highs shallow, switch 'em back to 0dB. I highly doubt you'll ever use the +5dB setting. Your installer should talk to you about how high you want the highs. Just make sure he doesn't seal the xovers in the door. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 12 Registered: Jul-04 | I assumed that's where the crossovers would go. Where else do people usually put them? Under the seats maybe? |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 215 Registered: Jun-04 | Stashed behind the kickpanels or the console (under the HU). -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 788 Registered: May-04 | You will definately want to use the -4 db setting to start with, especially with a high door location. A factor in this is that you need to allow the midrange time to break in, the fact that the suspension and motor is tight will make the tweeter seem much more bright than it normally would. Once the midrange breaks in, then use your discretion on how bright you want the tweeter to be. I will warn you that the set may sound a bit "tinny" to start with because of the mid needing break in time, but once the set breaks in the midbass and lower midrange will start to shine. It's a pretty well balanced component system. You'll have a nice setup there. |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 14 Registered: Jul-04 | How long does it usually take for them to get broken in and realize their full potential? |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 795 Registered: May-04 | Not terribly too long. It depends on how you drive them. Just keep the volume around half for 20-40 hours, that should break them in well. Keep in mind that ANY high end component system requires break in time, it's not just the Perfects. I'm sure you will be very happy with them after all is said and done, they are a great component set. I've just seen a lot of bad reviews about them not having the midbass they should, and the tweeter being bright, and their problem is that they didn't give them a chance to break in. I also had customers with the same complaint, but they took my advice and ended up thanking me in the end. I wanted you to know that beforehand, that way if the tweeter sounds a tad strong and the midbass and lower midrange sound weak, just give it time to develop, don't give up on the component set. |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 15 Registered: Jul-04 | In doing some further reading, I have come up with another question. I've seen mention numerous times about not placing the tweeter too far from the woofer in a component set. If I put these tweeters as high up on the door as I'm able to, they're going to be a foot or more away from the woofers. Is that going to be too much separation? |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 247 Registered: Jun-04 | It depends on the distance between you and each of the components. If there is a foot or so of difference between the travel distance, then you can flip the tweeter's leads to (easily) buy some time by switching its phase. Try it in-phase first, and if it sounds "off", switch the tweets and see if it's any better. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 16 Registered: Jul-04 | I have received both amps now, and have (you guessed it) another question. These amps include those little bass remote controls. Is this something that a person would actually need to use and have installed? My assumption is that once the amp is installed, it should be more of a (to quote Ron Popeil) set it and forget it kind of thing. Is this an incorrect assumption? Also, in looking at the amps, there are numerous settings, controls, dials, switches, etc., which are just too much for me. When I have everything installed, I assume again that the installer(s) will set everything at the appropriate and optimum settings. Is that how it usually goes? Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first multi amp quality system, and I just want to make sure everything gets done correctly the first time. The help and advice are greatly appreciated. |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 17 Registered: Jul-04 | Strange, this didn't get bumped up for my new question. Maybe this post will do the trick... |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 262 Registered: Jun-04 | You'll probably want a bass knob on whichever amp is driving the subs. It allows you to adjust the gain as needed. Believe it or not, there are times when you don't (and do) want more bass. This is particularly when you're on long rides or have a headache.  The rest of the amp settings (xover points, gains, etc.) will be set once when installed and likely never be adjusted again. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 18 Registered: Jul-04 | Well after waiting for a few weeks, my thunderform box finally arrived today. This was the last piece I was waiting for so I can go get everything installed. I was pretty excited while I was opening it....finally got all the packaging and wrapping off of it....my first glimplse of the dustcap on the subs....xtant.... WTF?!?!?!?!?! To say I was upset is a huge understatement. I fired off a not so nice email, and we'll see what happens. Ugh |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 893 Registered: May-04 | Xtant vs. MTX? I'd prefer the Xtant personally |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 19 Registered: Jul-04 | These are the $30 dollar cheapies, though, not the higher end ones. |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 20 Registered: Jul-04 | Oh yeah, and they're only rated at 200 watts rms, which is less than the amp I bought for the mtx subs puts out. |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 894 Registered: May-04 | Oh, nevermind. |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 339 Registered: Jun-04 | That does explain why they were 200W RMS instead of MTX's spec 225W. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 23 Registered: Jul-04 | One more update that I could really use some help on. I brought everything in to my local shop to get a quote on the installation of everything. He told me some pretty unexpected things, and I would really appreciate the input of you guys on what he had to say. First of all, I'll recap what I have and how I planned on running it. Infinity perfect 6.1 components in the front doors powered by a hifonics zx4000 pushing 100 watts rms x 2. In the back, Thunderform box and subs being ran by a hifonics zx4400 pushing 220 watts rms x 2. Here is what the installer said I should do... He said since the thunderform box only has one pair of terminals, it would be better to run the zx4000 at 400 watts x 1 channel into that, rather than go around the one set of terminals and run the 2 220 watt channels to the subs separately. He said it would be too difficult to get the gains to match on the subs and they wouldn't be in phase (or something like that...forgive me, I'm still learning some...). He then went on to say that I should run the perfects with the zx4400 running 220 watts rms x 2 to them. I said "wait a minute, they're only rated at 100 watts rms, and you're saying to run 220 watts rms to them???" He says yep, there really isn't such a thing as too much power. He said you can only really blow speakers by underpowering them, never by overpowering them. I am wary now, and say, "so you mean to tell me that I could take a speaker rated at 50 watts rms, and run 1000 watts to it, and it would be just fine?" "yep", he says. Hmm... Now I'd be the first to admit that I am anything but an expert, but that just doesn't make sense to me. I mean if that was the case, what would be the point of rating speakers at all? Why not just make everything capable of running with just 5 watts of power, and then put whatever you want to them? Doesn't seem logical to me. I tell him this, and he says there is no way I would blow those perfects by running 220 watts to them. I ask him then, if there is no way that will happen, and I go ahead and have them hook it up that way, will they guarantee it won't blow my speakers, and replace them if it does? Of course, the answer was no. So whaddya think? Sorry for the length on this thing, but I just want to get as many opinions as I can, and I certainly don't want to ruin any of my equipment. Thanks in advance. |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 903 Registered: May-04 | O.k, first what is the impedance for each sub in the Thunderform box? Second, yes you can blow speakers by overpowering speakers. It is NOT as common as underpowering, but overpowering will destroy speakers. The 100W RMS rating of the Perfects is a thermal rating, and if you exceed that by a large amount, you can melt the voice coil (more power=more heat) and you can also drive the suspension of the speakers beyond their limits. Power them with 100 RMS, NO more than 125. Sounds like you need to choose another installer. |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 24 Registered: Jul-04 | The subs are 4 ohm. Part of what he was saying about the subs made sense to me (which might not be saying much in and of itself), it was more the info about the perfects and the whole no too much power thing that threw me. Maybe it would be better to run the zx4000 with the subs, and just replace the zx4400 with another zx4000 for the components, then? |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 904 Registered: May-04 | Yeah, just replace the amp and run the 4400 on the subs. |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 25 Registered: Jul-04 | Sorry, replace which amp? I'll run the perfects with the 4000 I already have at 100 x 2. Do you think I should replace the 4400 with another 4000 to run 400 watts into one channel for the box as it was designed for? |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 346 Registered: Jun-04 | Well, you can't really jump straight to a ZX4000, because it runs 400Wx1 at 4 ohms (your parallel subs will be a 2-ohm load). So, hm. That installer is exaggerating quite a bit. As Jonathan said, you are far more likely to blow drivers with underpower than over, but they're still mechanical devices that operate under specific parameters. About the most you can do safely is 1.5 times RMS ("music power"). Personally, I would use the ZX4400 on the subs and rewire 'em. It's a 10-minute job, and his hilarcky about screwing up phase is far more trivial than the power issue. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 26 Registered: Jul-04 | That sounds logical to me as well. Are there any concerns that I need to make sure and address or look out for when wiring and running the subs like that (220Wx2 with one channel to each sub? |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 909 Registered: May-04 | I meant putting the ZX4400 on subs (220x2 at 4 ohms) would work well because each sub would get 220 watts. Then you could put the 4000 on the components. Man, that's one lazy installer you have. Matt was right, the subs would present a 2 ohm load, which the bridged 4000 can't handle. Unless you meant that both subs presented a FINAL 4 ohm load. |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 348 Registered: Jun-04 | Jonathan -- those subs are the bottom-of-the-line Xtant 10s, which are 200W RMS @ 4 ohms (350W max). Retail is $37.95 each. Chad, it's honestly a 10-minute job with a 12' length of heavy speaker wire. Get really fancy and use a recip saw to add another speaker cup, or just make a very small (1/4") hole to pass the wires through. http://www.cardomain.com/shoplist~b~R/T~t~Subwoofer+Enclosure+Accessories The installers issue is probably about the stereo signal in the enclosure. While there may wind up being some subtle weirdness during music that has heavy stereo spearation and bass, it's by no means going to hurt anything. If it really bothers you, get a crossover or equalizer that can put out a L+R mono signal (I believe Kicker makes one, Phoenix does, and maybe AudioControl). -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 27 Registered: Jul-04 | Thanks for the help guys. I think adding that second cup is the way to go. I'll check into a mono crossover as well. Thanks again! |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 28 Registered: Jul-04 | Well, I'm sort of glad that there is a delay in the installation now while I try to find time to talk to other local shops. The more I think about it, the more I think I won't be completely satisfied with this sub setup, so here's what I thought about doing instead. First is replacing those xtant subs. I'm thinking Cerwin Vega Vmax. They'll take 200 watts rms. I was then looking at replacing the zx4400 with a bx1000d which does 500Wx1 at 2 ohms. Opinions on this combo? |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 29 Registered: Jul-04 | Those Vmax subs should handle that 500 watts ok, right? |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 30 Registered: Jul-04 | So what do you guys think? Should those subs do ok with that amp in the thunderform box? It's a sealed box at 1.9 cubic feet. |
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Bronze Member Username: FfxdevilarmsPost Number: 28 Registered: Jul-04 | I am extremely new to car audio, but after reading a lot of htings on the various forums, i would have to say that it would not be a good idea and it would prob blow the sub. To be sure, ask either jonathan or glassjaw. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 1003 Registered: May-04 | Those subs should run well off of 500W RMS, much better than the subs they're replacing. I'm guessing you're talking about the VMax 10s. You'll have to be careful not to overdrive the suspension, they're a tad overpowered, and that 1.9 cu ft is a tad large for those subs. |
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Bronze Member Username: Koj11Post Number: 34 Registered: Jul-04 | Just wanted to throw in my last update. I ended up switching to the Hifonics Nemesis amp, which is pushing 400 watts to those vmax subs. I had everything installed a couple days ago, and it sounds incredible! I am extremely impressed with those vmax subs. The bass is nice and tight, and it absolutely pounds! I tried the -4db setting on the perfects first, but that wasn't quite bright enough for me. The flat setting was just right. Thanks again for everybody's help. I couldn't be happier with my system. |
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