I was browsing to find info on the type R subs I recently purchased and came accross this forum. I only found people that were more intent on saying how bad these subs were then people who knew anything specific. This quickly resulted in a pissing contest with no benefit at all. I have been working around audio equipment for over 15 years to date and I have seen things you would not believe. I have seen two rockford 8" subs in a huge ported box and a 500watt rockford amp in a CRX blow away four top of the line at the time JL 15's in a blazer powered by 4 pheonix gold 500 watt RMS amplifiers. The CRX posted an average of 142db where the blazer only posted 132db.(obviously this is due to improper box design and power delivery) I have never seen 8"s in a more severe excursion before that day.
Now lets get down to the core. Loudness and sound quality are not the same thing and the cost associated with combining these two can be substantial. Rockford subs are loud but for the most part lack sound quality due to the frequency response associated with the cone mass. The perfect sub would have an infinate frequency response with a weightless mechanical assembly and 100% efficiency. Unfortunately this not being possible due to the basic physical properties of matter and electromechanical constraint sub companies do the best they can.
Personally if I hear someone wants a loud system to compete with his or her friends I would go with rockford as it is reasonably priced and provides excellent power handling well beyond what is rated.... however if someone says they are more interested the quality of sound I would recommend an alpine or a JL sub system. Of those two the alpine tends to be a little more expensive but at the same time uses a buytl rubber surround while JL uses a foam style surround. One thing I hadn't liked in the past about JL subs is that they tin the wires extending to the cone, while this may add a certain look that buyers might like from an engineering perspective tinning wires makes them brittle and prone to fracture after prolonged movment whereas alpine used bare multi stranded copper.
For those of you looking for loud and clean sound JL's tend to be very crisp but the higher end versions such as the JL-7's require huge power to run properly...a drawback to this is that if these subs are purchased and run on a cheap amp the amp will operate far into clipping severly limiting the lifespan of both the amp and sub.
Clipping, for those of you who are unaware of the term, occurs when an amplifier is unable to amplify the peak value it receives at its input and essentially clips the top of the sine wave off. This operation is highly undesireable as the sub follows the motion of the sound wave and a sudden stop followed by changing direction causes excessive heating of the pole piece and since the mechanical limitations of the system are unable to respond instantly excessive stress on the cone assembly causes an audible distortion at higher levels.
Wow thats a mouthful eh!
Audiobahn are by far some of the most impressive subs I have ever seen. They are for the most part a higher end sub but you get alot for your money. Some of the features are: chrome basket and excellent finish, excellent frequency response and impressive power handling capability, also an oversized surround with shock absorbing bumpers to prevent pole bottoming out in a harsh manner and a durable butyl rubber surround. Again a drawback is that these subs need power to run so cheaping out on a amplifier can makes these subs distort and sound like garbage at moderate levels.
Back to Alpine again, I used to own 4 15" alpine BASS subs. I purchased these subs due to there reasonable price and clean finish. These subs were loud running off of my Pheonix Gold 350watt sub amp. This amp was running at 1 ohm stable bridged into these subs running parallel and I measured the output to be within .05% distortion with my handy oscilloscope....pretty impressive to say the least seeing as the rated distortion level of this amp was around .10% running at 2 ohms bridged. To top it off when I removed the back plate on this amplifier it was entirely gold plated and I just had to mount it to a 1/2" peice of glass to display its beauty as the layout was organized and simple but nothing less then genious from an engineering perspective.
I guess the point I really want to make here is we all have our own preferences when it comes to purchasing what we do but the why should be what is discussed here don't you think???
I bought a pair of JL 12's about 7 years ago and ended up returning them as the surround actually came apart after 2 months of use running them at half the rated RMS power handling. The cuprit was found to be low quality chemical suppliers providing an inferior foam. Since then I have never purchased any sub with a foam surround. I realize that by doing this I am limiting myself when it comes to frequency response as foam rubber is far more flexible then butyl rubber..however foam rubber is far less durable then butyl rubber and for my money I want the sub to last. I have not heard of this happening to any newer JL subs and have even installed a couple JL-7's while salivating as these subs are really serious looking and quite heavy to say the least.
I am looking for some ported box specs on the Type R's. Typically I go with 1.5 cubic feet and a 3" port around 11 inches long for 10"s but I want to hear some opinions and actual results that other people have had with these subs. I am mounting them in the back deck of my 80 malibu for a show appearance. I am custom building the box to fit into this location and it will require some welding and fabrication skills luckily I have picked these up along the way.
Give me a shout out about your box specs and sound quality. By the way come to canada and visit us crazy canadians in our igloos. LOL peace out
Umm...I don't have anything to say. I don't know I'd say Audiobahn makes some of the most impressive woofers. And their "chrome" plating isn't really what I'd call a "feature". Rather I'd call it, a way to jack up the price. The only thing Audiobahn does right with their subs is making some of them with paper cones, but the rest of the build quality destroys that.
"Audiobahn are by far some of the most impressive subs I have ever seen. They are for the most part a higher end sub but you get alot for your money"
Audiobahn is total crap for the most part, high failure rate and don't sound great either. Some of their more expensive subs are ok for SPL purposes, other than that they aren't worth fooling with. Far from high end, though.
I don't really focus on whether a speaker has a rubber surround or not, I've seen plenty of foam surround subs last over 10 years in a car environment, it's assuring enough for me, anyway. The bigger question is why the manufacturer would use a foam surround, of course the answer would be to get the suspension compliance that they are aiming for. Most manufacturers were using them to get the most efficiency out of their subs when power wasn't cheap. It's only a small detail in the big picture, though.
Oversized surrounds, chrome finishes, metallic cone finishes, powdercoated baskets are used to woo buyers, but don't offer any performance advantage. A few subs can take advantage of the surround, but most won't use half of its potential. The best speakers tend to look pretty generic because they focus on what is truly necessary for a superior driver. The most critical portion of a speaker comes from things that you don't see on a specs sheet, primarily the motor. This is where companies like Audiobahn fail to deliver.
Tops in build quality I'd give to Rainbow Audio, handmade in Germany to very tight tolerances. You will pay for it, though.
Anonymous
Posted on
"Electronics technition" - in your profile should actually be spelt ELECTRONICS TECHNICIAN whoa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !
Anonymous
Posted on
here's the evidence before he erases it - LOL
Username: Soundtech26 Full Name: Kris Finley Last Logged In: October 07, 2005 Registered: October 07, 2005 Total Posts: 7 Status: New member Occupation: Electronics technition City: chilliwack State/Province: BC Zip Code: v2R 2V4 Country: canada Age: 26 Sex (M/F): M Personal Quote: Stop fighting and listen you may learn
I'd say SPELL better & only then you will learn - lol
Who have you heard bashing Type R's? Most people on here usually recommend them?
Your whole little mini-thesis you wrote is pretty much garbage, but I certainly lost any remaining respect for you when you claimed Audiobahn as being high quality.
Ok, I dont portray myself to know everything but i do know a little something something.
"For those of you looking for loud and clean sound JL's tend to be very crisp but the higher end versions such as the JL-7's require huge power to run properly...a drawback to this is that if these subs are purchased and run on a cheap amp the amp will operate far into clipping severly limiting the lifespan of both the amp and sub. "
This is not true.
The driver does not make the amp go into clipping. If your gain isnt set properly and/or your cranking your volume thus making the amp extend beyond its limits, it will drive the amp into clipping. Underpowering a JL or any sub will not cause clipping if your operating your system the way it was designed.
A guy on this forum ran his 10" DD @ like 150WRMS for a while and he didnt drive his amp into clipping. Now he has a new amp that puts out like 850wRMS.
But the funny thing is that you had to give us your little explanation of what clipping was. Where to you get off trying to preach to us. If your gunna do it, do it when someone asks, dont just assume no one on the forum knows what clipping is.
Like I said, i dont know everything and you may even know more than I. However dont come on this forum and make accusations that arnt necessarily true, "I only found people that were more intent on saying how bad these subs were then people who knew anything specific." Like Joe said a lot of people on here recommend them when they fit into someones preferences.
If you want to be a hot shot why dont you go toe to toe with Glass or Jon, theyll put you in your place. There are also a lot of other knowledgable people on this forum. The only time people are negative (like me right now) is when people just start sh!t with the whole forum like you are.
BTW, You could have left out your whole life story and just posted your question, it probably would have gotten answered. Like Joe said, your mini-thesis wasnt required.
This is pretty funny just reading what this guy thinks he knows. I love the part where he says audiobahns are by far the mos timpressive sub!I laugh I laugh.
"A guy on this forum ran his 10" DD @ like 150WRMS for a while and he didnt drive his amp into clipping. Now he has a new amp that puts out like 850wRMS."
that's me. i ran two channels of my USA 4300x bridged to this sub for a grand total of 150wRMS(or so) for about 14 months. and i never once clipped the amp.
Notice I say the most impressive sub I have seen. Nice quote and nice comment on my sub par spelling I did graduate as a technician and not an english major and sometimes I type faster then I spellcheck.
So Muddywaters how did you know your USA 4300X wasn't clipping??? Did you run it on a bench or in the car with real test equipment connected or did you just assume that since there was no audible distortion that everything was operating within its limits...or did you never turn on your system thus it would never have clipped. I will just assume then that the reson you decided to replace that amplifier is because it provided the listening quality you wanted.
Hey Cameron I only expressed my opinions and not "what this guy thinks he knows". To clarify my previous statement...for the money here in canada an audiobahn sub offers resonable performance and power handling with attractive fit and finish.
Johnathan as for failure rates of audiobahn subs I have never personally seen one fail or even heard of one crapping out. Audiobahn does have an excellent return policy though for defects and will replace any driver no questions asked within the first year of purchase unless the sub was smashed to pieces by some act of destruction. I have to ask myself why a company would voluntarily put themselves in this financial position if they made crap. I have owned a fair selection of subs including JL,JBL,Rockford, Audiobahn, Alpine, and Infinity in my time and I have formed my own opinions from what I have seen.
Joe Smoe I am interested as to what you found about my "little mini-thesis" that you found to be "pretty much garbage". How many people here have constructed a Class A or a Class AB or a Class D switching amplifier on this board?? How many of you have operated an oscilloscope on a test bench setup??? Anyone here know what push-pull means not to sound condescending as I am just a stupid canadian after all.
I agree that "The driver does not make the amp go into clipping. If your gain isnt set properly and/or your cranking your volume thus making the amp extend beyond its limits, it will drive the amp into clipping. Underpowering a JL or any sub will not cause clipping if your operating your system the way it was designed." however I know that the average audiophile purchasing audio equipment of this nature(subs and amps) is not going to use restraint when listening to that favorite track and sound levels tend to climb when showing off a sound system....the point I was trying to make is that reliable and long-lasting listening enjoyment is a matter of system selection.
For instance it makes no sense to buy a $700 JL-7 and power that sub with a $50 amp from your local radioshack in hopes that the system will not only sound great but provide the performance that a $700 sub can provide. I have seen this done in town and I have seen the result when the amp protection fails to protect the amplifier from excessive heat due to overdriving the amplifier for prolonged periods of time.
Hey Mike D thanks for answering my question about box design it really helped me understand how I was starting sh!t with you. The only reason why I gave an explanation of clipping was because I understood this forum was for anyone and as such wanted it to be generic in experience level. I did say "for those of you who are unaware of the term" however I am sure you just missed that part.
As for "toe to toe with Glass or Jon" I am very interested in sharing knowledge and I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to do so however I am not violent by nature so would prefer to keep the fighting I do in the ring.
NO, it was b/c i knew how to control the volume knob. and i never tried to blast my system. i got the other amp b/c i felt like upgrading. at the time i was strapped for cash and the sub could handle way more power.
there is no need to argue about this, i have no beef with you, but i also know what my system was capable of with only one amp running it.
oh, and i don't have much experience "with" type r's, but they do sound good. and the reason i even posted in this thread was b/c someone hinted my name, and i figured i would stand behind his statement.
Trying to detect clipping by ear is very hard. I've tried it. My amp has a clip meter and I use it to detect distortion. The SQ between clipping and not clipping is very marginal at best. In fact, if you closed your eyes, they sound pretty much alike. You will need a very clean cd to detect slight change in sound. Playing music like rap will be almost impossible to detect. Although subs will survive some clipping, continuous clipping will eventually burn out the sub. The point I'm trying to make is, sometimes just when you think your amp is not clipping, or can't clip cause everything is set properly, it can and will.
"Hey Mike D thanks for answering my question about box design it really helped me understand how I was starting sh!t with you. The only reason why I gave an explanation of clipping was because I understood this forum was for anyone and as such wanted it to be generic in experience level. I did say "for those of you who are unaware of the term" however I am sure you just missed that part."
I didnt mean with me in general, its just that you came off as you you knew everything and were preaching to us.
If you didnt mean it like that and you just came off the wrong way (sh!t happens) than its cool. No problems.
You seem to be very knowledgable however i still disagree about the driver causing clipping. But i wont argue.
I have used oscillioscope and other test equipment as I am an Electrical Engineering major (im still in college) but this does not make me a "pro" in any aspect. I havent gotten to bench test my own amps which i will be sure to do in the robotics lab before the semester ends
Everyone hear wants to learn. Thats why they are here. I dont like threads like this that stick around for like two weeks and get huge and its just people arguing. Youve proved your knowledge and thats fine. Now like you said spread your knowldged. Just next time try not to call out the whole forum, since ive joined, everytime that happens the results are generally negative.
Here are some pics of my other 1980 malibu that I have been building for 4 years now. Although it doesn't have any audio equipment in it yet I plan on quite the extensive custom install before it is ready for the road once again. My other 1980 malibu install is about 25% complete at this point but I am working on it this weekend to tidy up all the wiring and work on the interior as I purchased this car less then 2 months ago for work. I will post pictures of this car as I go along. Is there anyway this forum could have a pictures section so that all the members can view eachothers cars and get new ideas on system install. Thanks guys and keep it clean and loud from canada peace out.............aww man my pics have to be 600 x 600 sh!tty....I will out pics up later today sorry have to go...
"Rockford subs are loud but for the most part lack sound quality due to the frequency response associated with the cone mass."
Kris,
Frequency response is not effected by cone mass, but rather the inductance of the driver. The clipping issue has been addressed, so that's really the only thing I have to say in response to your post. You're more than welcome to form your own opinion about different manufacturers, and in fact that's the best way to do things.
"Johnathan as for failure rates of audiobahn subs I have never personally seen one fail or even heard of one crapping out. Audiobahn does have an excellent return policy though for defects and will replace any driver no questions asked within the first year of purchase unless the sub was smashed to pieces by some act of destruction. I have to ask myself why a company would voluntarily put themselves in this financial position if they made crap."
I used to deal Audiobahn, they have an enormously high failure rate and horrible business practices (quotas). They will replace the subwoofer, but if you're wondering why they would make crap, it is because it is built very cheaply, it's easy to replace cheap crap with more cheap crap. It's why BOSS audio offers 6 year warranties on their amplifiers. When you make huge profit margins, as does Audiobahn, you can afford to repair and replace things multiple times before you'd come close to losing money. You know, in the 70s Ford decided that it wasn't worth paying the extra $15 per vehicle to upgrade the rear bumper area of the Pinto, knowing it was a safety hazard (as was any small car of the era, Vega, Corolla, and many others). They chose that they would rather be saddled with the insurance claims, which averaged around $200,000 each. In the end, they saved a substantial amount of money from the decision, but the Pinto got a horrible reputation because of it. Sadly, it's the poorly built high volume equipment that makes a company the most money. Even a tiny shortcut can save a lot of money in the end.
The only high-end car audio companies that seem to be surviving are the ones that have their roots in home and pro audio, primarily because they have something to fall back on and because they base their car equipment on their other offerings. There are exceptions such as JL Audio, but overall the demand for high end car audio equipment is at an all time low as crappy companies dilute the marketplace and woo buyers with aesthetics and bogus "stats" that the unknowing consumer would assume creates a high quality driver, combined with the hobby progressively swinging its emphasis to SPL with no regard to build quality or sound quality. A lot if that can be blamed on modern culture, which is proof that people that are either stupid, incompetent, or lazy are the ones that tend to reproduce more quickly and in higher numbers. There is also the fact that there is hardly any good music anymore, the other side of that is the degrading quality of CD media in favor of recording media with excessive compression, limiting dynamic range in order to make the material seem louder (same thing that TV marketing does). Most music now is horribly recorded compared to that of the late 80s and early 90s, and often an accurate SQ focused set of speakers can actually sound worse than a cheaper set because their revealing nature tends to accentuate the flaws in the recording.
It is difficult to assure that your amplifiers are not clipping, especially in a car environment, but as long as you use a 0db reference tone and set the gains at a level where the amplifier is at maximum clean output, then keep the volume at or below that level, you will be ok if your power supply is constant. Of course you'll have to refrain from boosting equalizers and useless garbage like bass boost, but other than that you'll be fine. Some set the volume at a constant level and use a preamp in order to control level and assure the amplifier doesn't clip.
I agree with the statements above, we don't need to start a flame war over things like this, just discuss what we know and what we believe. Hence the title of the thread .
I'd like to blame the greedy ba$tard$, especially the Sony. Instead of fighting, why not direct our anger towards Sony? They lie about everything, sue little kids for downloading songs that they don't even own, make fake movie reviews to boost sales/demand, gouge consumers by making proprietary connectors/gadgets and charge 2x-5x the value (Sony's memory stick is a good example, their MD players will only allow you to download a song "x" number of times), give you pre-recorded message for support and refuse to offer anything remotely helpful in solving the problem, lie about their product's spec, collect extra duty/levy on every blank media sold in Canada cause they assume everyone is buying a blank cd to copy their music. I think I've covered everything I can think of. If I missed anything, feel free to make additions. Man I hate Sony and the Japanese companies. Oh I almost forgot, DO NOT SUPPORT Sony's new blu laser technology in their new dvds!!! They will screw us again by making blank media 5x the normal cost.
It's the only reason they come out with new stuff like the blu-ray laser just so they can make money. Hey, let's introduce a new meaningless technology, all the idiots in the world will buy into it, then they'll have to buy all new equipment to use it, and we'll make billions more.
jerrod
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Can any one help me? I am looking for a set of subs that is just stupid loud. Would 2 solo x 18's be it or 3 jl 13's?
those subs will get stupid loud, but you will spend even more powering them, and even more making sure that the amps can get the power to "power" them.
also, start a new thread, you will get more responses, and people won't think less of you for hijacking someone else's thread.
"Notice I say the most impressive sub I have seen."
you must be looking in a crutchfield mag from four years ago. otherwise you like chrome flames and screened baskets. which is all a matter of taste. not knocking it. just the subs.
"The only high-end car audio companies that seem to be surviving are the ones that have their roots in home and pro audio, primarily because they have something to fall back on and because they base their car equipment on their other offerings."
Actually, I think Harmon Kardon was acquired by an even crappier company. Can't remember who, though.
High end SQ equipment, the top components right now are Dynaudio, SEAS, Focal, Rainbow, DLS, and Morel. There are some less popular ones, but those above are the main players. And Rainbow is the only one that isn't based on home/pro audio equipment.
Amplifiers you're pretty much limited to Zapco, McIntosh, TRU Technology, Sinfoni, and a couple others.
Head units, Alpine is going down the tube with the CDA-7990 as an exception, Eclipse seems to be the same or improving. Pioneer P9 combo is one of the best for the money spent.
