Are RMS numbers trustworthy? Eclipse vs. Pio vs. PG
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2442 Registered: Mar-05 | 1. Eclipse ea2212, 2x58 wpc at 4 ohms, $93 shipped 2. Pioneer gm5100T, 2x125 wpc at 4 ohms, $110 shipped 3. Phoenix Gold R4.0.2, 2x125 wpc at 4 ohms, $95 shipped This will be driving a pair of Polk 6.5" component speakers with a recommended RMS of around 100watts I think. I'd like decent SQ and solid long term reliability out of the amp. I know that Eclipse is the most respected name of those 3 but how much of a difference will its 58wpc be compared to the other two's claimed 125wpc? How bad is Pioneer, compared to Phoenix Gold's entry level R-Octane line? With home audio receivers, the low to mid priced ones often come with very inflated RMS numbers, so I was curious if the same applies to car amps. For instance a Harman Kardon rated at 50wpc will easily outpower an Onkyo rated at 100wpc. Is Eclipse anything like HK? |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfWisteria, Lane USA Post Number: 10646 Registered: Dec-03 | see if they offer CEA2006 specs. Those RMS numbers are very accurate across the board.. even between different brands. They use a standardized means of testing RMS power with CEA ratings. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2444 Registered: Mar-05 | Glass, Thanks, I'll contact the manufacturers. Assuming those are all accurate specs, which of those 3 amps would you personally recommend? I am not in the habit of blasting music, but I do want good SQ and reliability is important. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfWisteria, Lane USA Post Number: 10657 Registered: Dec-03 | I'm not a fan or pioneer's amps or PGs, so of the three, that leaves eclipse |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2445 Registered: Mar-05 | > I'm not a fan or pioneer's amps or PGs, You mean you don't like how they sound, or have you seen a lot of mechanical issues with them? |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfWisteria, Lane USA Post Number: 10658 Registered: Dec-03 | not a fan of their quality in general. |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 4579 Registered: Nov-04 | Finally GW. I thought I was the only one that didn't approve PG. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vai4meMichigan USA Post Number: 25 Registered: Dec-04 | I don't either....I used to think PG was good stuff...back in the day...but we'll leave that alone...LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2453 Registered: Mar-05 | decided to order the Pio, $108 shipped. Will be interesting to compare its SQ with the PPI pcx-480 that I currently have running the Polks plus a sub, also to compare the difference between the Pio's 125wpc with the PPI's 80wpc. Any predictions, guys? (I'll be moving the PPI to my Camry and eBaying the sub.) |
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Gold Member Username: RovinTrinidad & T... Post Number: 1121 Registered: Jul-05 | U mean after what those all those guys advice above posted u are still choosing the lowest (not necessarily the worst but) ranking of the 3 !? |
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ECON Unregistered guest | I think that old PG is the shiznit! Particularly Titanium and Tantrum. GlassWolf / Isaac, Do either of you have a "beef" with those models? I sure have had good luck with them. |
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Silver Member Username: Kd7nfrMontpelier, ID United States Post Number: 982 Registered: Apr-05 | Why did you even ask for input if you weren't going to listen? |
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Silver Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 270 Registered: Jun-05 | maybe he's hooking up a system for someone he dosnt like? ;) And by the way..about PG amps.. I'm using a PG Xenon 1200.1 to run a 13W7 in a slot ported box.. I listened to both the JL 1000.1, and this amp.. Hands-down, I liked the force behind the PG better. It is CEA 2006 rated, and it's birth sheet actually has it marked as pushing out 1311 watts RMS at 1-4 ohms. Seth |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2458 Registered: Mar-05 | Rovin & Jake: > U mean after what those all those guys advice above posted u are still choosing the lowest (not necessarily the worst but) ranking of the 3 !? Uh guys, what little advice there was, was pretty oblique, vague and slow in coming. Plus I wanted to get this thing out of the way to be perfectly honest. And what do you mean "all their advice," LOL? Glass said he's not a fan of PG or Pio which is not exactly a stirring endorsement of Eclipse, not to mention that the Eclipse is only 50wpc according to more reliable websites. The two subsequent posters, Isaac and Vai4Me, only added to the criticism of PG, nothing about the Eclipse vs. the Pioneer and really NOBODY even bothered to offer an opinion on the 58wpc vs. 125wpc question. Let's just say that in this particular thread eCoustics Car Audio was not exactly a gold mine of useful information... Not blaming anyone but some of you guys (excluding Glasswolf who hasn't made any funny comments like that) need to read a little better. Anyways on a couple of other car audio forums I have been reassured that the Pioneer though not spectacular is not bad at all, so I just went with the highest available RMS at that pricepoint. The Polks sounded good but not great with the PPI amp so I am hoping that the extra 45 wpc from the Pioneer at least just give me more volume. My real focus is home audio anyways, in car audio I just want something kinda sorta decent. As long as the Pioneer doesn't turn out to be a breakdown-prone lemon I doubt you'll hear me complaining much about it. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vai4meMichigan USA Post Number: 34 Registered: Dec-04 | Excuse me but I said nothing derogatory towards you...I just simply put in my 2 cents as far as PG was concerned. I am by no mean a true audiophile, I can only judge on experience that I myself have encountered or by those I know. Since I have no experience with either the Pioneer or the Eclipse I felt it would not be right for me to speak on them. Sorry if you were offended...I can tell you this I do have experience with Pioneers head units and I am very pleased with mine and the reliability has been great. Andy = vai4me |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2461 Registered: Mar-05 | > Excuse me but I said nothing derogatory towards you...I just simply put in my 2 cents as far as PG was concerned. uh, I didn't say you said anything derogatory towards me, and I didn't mind that you were talking about the PG only. So no offense was ever taken. I was simply responding to Rovin & Jake's apparent chagrin that I didn't follow the advice given. My point was, there was darn near zero advice given other than very generalized criticism of both PG and Pioneer from Glass, and criticism of PG from the two posters who followed him before I made my decision. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vai4meMichigan USA Post Number: 35 Registered: Dec-04 | sorry I guess when I saw this... "Let's just say that in this particular thread eCoustics Car Audio was not exactly a gold mine of useful information... Not blaming anyone but some of you guys (excluding Glasswolf who hasn't made any funny comments like that) need to read a little better." I figured you were addressing me...but thanks for clearing it up. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2462 Registered: Mar-05 | No I wasn't blaming you at all. In fact I appreciate that you didn't try to comment on any gear that you don't have any first- or second-hand experience with. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vai4meMichigan USA Post Number: 36 Registered: Dec-04 | Cool. Aside from that in a non-experience hands on opinion I think the Pioneer will be just fine. There are many brands that fall into the "cookie cutter" mold of being known as "bad" I have some hands on experience with some of them and Pioneer has not been one. Not everyone is looking for the Paradigm or B&W of car audio and I think Pioneer is a good middle of the road brand. ;) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2463 Registered: Mar-05 | > Not everyone is looking for the Paradigm or B&W of car audio My wife would kill me if I were, after what I've already spent on home audio this year, lol! > and I think Pioneer is a good middle of the road brand. Great to hear, that's what I was hoping for. Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 4582 Registered: Nov-04 | Edster922, if you like Pioneer/PG, then that's fine. GW gave you some guidence on what amp was better. Amongst those 3, Eclipse was the better product. However, you're not really comparing high quality amps. They're more of a middle to below in SQ. There really isn't much to give opinions on either. Had you asked for a great SQ amp, then I amp positive you would've gotten much better and detailed response. If you think so far PG/Pioneer is giving you great SQ, then you haven't heard anything yet. There are amps out there that can sound 2x better and yet cost just as much/little as your amp. "The two subsequent posters, Isaac and Vai4Me, only added to the criticism of PG." GlassWolf picked the amp for you, so I didn't want to repeat. However, lot of people overrate PG, just like Hifonics. That is why I responsed with my post. |
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Gold Member Username: RovinTrinidad & T... Post Number: 1132 Registered: Jul-05 | I did not mean anything disrespectful . But from what i've read all over PG is higher ranking than the Pioneer (whose products i happen to own & for the price i like) . The PG has that 1-4ohm feature that the others don't so i thought u would have know that ,whatever load it gets it still puts out the power so its less troublesome . Like Isaac said "you're not really comparing high quality amps" so u can't expect too many answers cause there were only 3 choices u picked out . Anyway , Edster ,nothing bad i said was intended so hopefully there are no hard feelings ......  |
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Silver Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 274 Registered: Jun-05 | I'm not disagreeing with Isaac, because in regards to SQ, you simply cannot argue someones oppinion, because it is just that - an oppinion.. I've had some experience with phoenix gold.. They used to be awesome, old school PG, then they decreased sharply in quality. However, recently, in my oppinion, namely the xenon series, the quality has been much better again. I honestly compared both the Xenon and the JL 1000.1 on my 13W7, and while it was very close, the JL seemed to distort earlier, and clip sooner.. The Xenon (maybe because it had more CEA rated watts) just got louder, while maintaining it's clarity. I also like the xenon's tuning system, how it has a guide to tell you how many 'clicks' to turn the knob, and exactly what that setting is. (I.E. turn the knob 14 clicks to set the LPF to 84 hz, or 15 clicks to set the subsonic knob to 35hz). I didnt think I was ever going to get phoenix gold again, after being very dissappointed with the quality, and durability of a phoenix gold amp I had gotten a few years back, but after reading some pretty good things, I decided what the hell. I'm glad I made the choice I did. While I cant speak for hte durability, as it's only been about a month and a half since I got it, I can say that I'm loving every minute of the SQL that it produces. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2464 Registered: Mar-05 | no hard feelings from me guys, just bafflement initially. Isaac wrote: "There are amps out there that can sound 2x better and yet cost just as much/little as your amp." Then I would love to hear some specific recs, even if it's now a moot point. What sounds twice as good for $108 shipped and puts out 125wpc? Now of course if you guys think that there's not much difference between 50wpc and 125wpc I sure wish you had piped up about that a heck of a lot soooner. My choice of the Pioneer was mainly based on price and what I've gleaned from a number of car audio forums as its ok sound quality but good reliability. I was not looking for top of the line by any stretch, in fact I wanted to pay as little as possible without going with something likely to burn out in a year's time. Seth: now see if someone had turned me onto the PG Xenon line I *might* have forked out the extra $50 for the Xenon 100.2 that have on eBay. (Annoying thing about PG is that on their website they are very dodgy about whether their RMS numbers are continuous or maximum, even the Xenon PDF manual doesn't say which it is.) |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 4589 Registered: Nov-04 | Edster922, did you look at Xtant amps? The 2 channel amps sold for around $125 or lower. I'd say lot of them went for $80 - $95. I have posted in the past about this brand. As long as you had decent pair of components, you will hear the difference between Pioneer and Xtant, guaranteed. Have done tests. PPI PC 2300.3 sold for around $125 and it is 75w rms x 2 @ 4ohms and 150w rms @2ohms. Of the amps you mentioned, they don't compare with these amps, in spec and SQ wise. As I have said numerous times before, it doesn't matter with what product you buy, as long as you're happy with it. Heck, some peole are perfectly satisfied with Sony subs and amps. |
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Silver Member Username: Alias747MN Post Number: 762 Registered: Apr-05 | Case in point: http://cgi.ebay.com/Xtant-2200i-High-End-2-ch-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ5816402896QQcat egoryZ18796QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Despite it being used, I would take this amp over a new Pioneer ANYDAY. Actually I would take this amp over many other new amps. Isaac is right, Xtant is a very nice brand that most people don't hear about, so they can be found for surprisingly cheap on ebay. But most people don't understand what true audiophile companies are either. They don't know what they are missing out on. Not saying you made a bad descion, but I would do a lot more research to find out what is good, trust me I did. I was soooo close to buying an Audiobahn sub when I first got into car audio but then I found this forum and I learned so much in just a little ammount of time. And found out I could get a much better amp and much better sub for not much more money. Just be patient and look around, you will be happier in the end, I know I was. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfWisteria, Lane USA Post Number: 10663 Registered: Dec-03 | the old, early 90s PG amps were pretty nice, all in all, but expensive. The current stuff is far too blingy and made in the image of fast & furious groupies. On top of that, now that PG has acquired all of HK, they've stated tehy're going to get out of the "high end" scene and target mass production chain stores for low to mid range mass sales. Great. Another audiobahn. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2469 Registered: Mar-05 | > As long as you had decent pair of components, you will hear the difference between Pioneer and Xtant, guaranteed. Have done tests. hmm, I don't know what your definition of "decent" is: I have the Polk db6500s which I think is also a middle of the road product, and the head unit is a Pioneer deh-3500. Would I have heard a significant improvement with the xtant's 75wpc over the pio's 125wpc? Sure wish you had shown up earlier... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2470 Registered: Mar-05 | > the old, early 90s PG amps were pretty nice, all in all, but expensive. The current stuff is far too blingy and made in the image of fast & furious groupies. does that assessment include their Xenon line too? > On top of that, now that PG has acquired all of HK, they've stated tehy're going to get out of the "high end" scene and target mass production chain stores for low to mid range mass sales. PG acquired Harman Kardon??? I thought HK was owned by some huge mega corporate consortium? |
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Silver Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 275 Registered: Jun-05 | I had actually gotten a set of audiobahn subs, and a pair of audiobahn amps.. (had both the nifty 400 watt rms and 800 wat RMS that liked to overheat every 15 minutes. But they said bling bling! COOL!) I dont think that the Xenon series PG's look too blingy, they put out more than their rated power, are CEA rated, and the sound is VERY clean. For sh!ts and giggles, I had hooked up a zapco amp to the 13W7, and hands down, this amp was better than my PG.. But I still stand by my statement that the PG Xenon series outperformed the JL 1000.1. |
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Silver Member Username: Alias747MN Post Number: 764 Registered: Apr-05 | Edster, the Xtant amp that I posted does 100x2 wrms. Plus Xtant is famous for being very underrated and Pioneer has been known to be overrated. Just letting you know. "Sure wish you had shown up earlier..." The reason for my post above, when you rush into buying things you usually aren't happy with what you got. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2475 Registered: Mar-05 | Guess I had posted questions here before and Glasswolf and Rovin were the only respondents so wasn't expecting much more input from anyone else. As for the Pio being overrated I was told on other forums that this has been true for their old PRS line but not the current GM line. So you think even with my humble Polks and Pio HU the Xtant would have still made a noticeable difference? Just curious. When the Pio comes in and I hook it up will report back. I actually use that truck maybe about 10 hours a week at most, so it wouldn't kill me if the Pio was underwhelming. I just figured that since I was moving the PPI amp to the other car I didn't want to bother with pulling out the HU, disconnecting the amp lines, and reconnecting the speakers to the HU directly. Surely this will still be a vast improvement over the HU only, right guys? LOL |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 4591 Registered: Nov-04 | Anything will be better than HU power. To achieve SQ, you need quality amp, components and clean input signal. One without the other will make it sound just like a cheap Sony. However, as soon as you get rid of the deficiencies, you will notice the jump in SQ. Some people will swear that their pioneer/Kenwood amps sound the greatest and can't get any better. Then they go hear a SQ demo and realize what used to be the "best" is just ordinary. It's like those old sayings, you can't have good without evil, cause there's nothing to compare with. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2477 Registered: Mar-05 | > Then they go hear a SQ demo and realize what used to be the "best" is just ordinary. I'm ok with "ordinary," just hoped to avoid "crappy." : ) And long-term reliability is important, I don't want to have to buy another cheap amp a year or two from now. Have never heard of any Pio products having QA issues, have you? |
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Silver Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 280 Registered: Jun-05 | I totally agree with Isaac. I used to think that my six 12" subs in bandpass boxes sounded soo good, and it just couldnt get any better. Introduce my 13W7... Now I still think they're extremely loud, and mixed with the W7, my setup still sounds better than 95% of other peoples crap on the road, IMO, however, I'm now going to be fiberglassing the back of my car, and putting in four RE SX's. The 13W7 made me realize how much nicer SQL/SQ is than SPL... Seth |
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ECON Unregistered guest | "I'm using a PG Xenon 1200.1 to run a 13W7 in a slot ported box.. I listened to both the JL 1000.1, and this amp.. Hands-down, I liked the force behind the PG better." I hear ya. PG sounds much better than JL. Don't let Jonathan hear that or he might piss his pants. He lives to support JL. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2486 Registered: Mar-05 | > The 13W7 made me realize how much nicer SQL/SQ is than SPL... I know what SQ and SPL stands for, but what's SQL? Never was much into driving around with my windows down just to annoy other people. There are much cheaper ways to annoy other people, I think. |
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Silver Member Username: TdisantoPost Number: 282 Registered: Sep-05 | SQL is a happy medium between SPL and SQ If sounds good and gets loud  |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2487 Registered: Mar-05 | hmm, what exactly does "loud" constitute? I use an SPL meter at home when ABing different gear and also to discuss concrete levels of loudness. With my home system, about 80db is comfortably, pleasantly loud. 90-100db is extremely loud, good for quick therapeutic sessions after a long hard day at work but definitely not normal usage at least not for me. I do however find it a useful level to measure the extremes of a speaker's or amp/receiver's capabilities. Do those numbers roughly correlate in the car audio world? |
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Silver Member Username: TdisantoPost Number: 290 Registered: Sep-05 | def not. If you post on here that your system hits even 120dB everyone will laugh at you. No offense of course. A more respectable number would be 140-150+ I would assume most people think this to be loud. In a car, your like in basically like a secondary sub enclosure. Therefore higher SPL levels can be reached. (cabin gain) However a car is like the worst place to put a SQ system becuase its acoustically horrible. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2488 Registered: Mar-05 | (jaw drops and stays on floor) I'll have to take that meter into my truck and see what the PPI amp gets. My guess is that 120-150db numbers are basically subwoofer blasts? Ugh. Can't imagine doing that with some midwoofs and tweets...especially actually sitting IN the car at those levels for any amount of time beyond oh, five seconds. |
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Silver Member Username: TdisantoPost Number: 300 Registered: Sep-05 | yah i agree, its Loud. Yah tweeters dont get that loud, its all subs. Look into SPL competitons and stuff, theyll post numbers and they go about 150. Im pretty sure into the 160s. Thats nuts. I wouldnt really want anything louder than 130 or so with an SQ system. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vai4meMichigan USA Post Number: 40 Registered: Dec-04 | I am not too sure about this but I believe those are SPL comp. numbers. I know I would not wish to be driving a car around on a daily basis pushing 150db all the time. I would think that would certainly be asking for certain defness...I have heard some really loud systems. My 2 12" Kicker CompVR Subs were loud enough to make my ears actually hurt from the bass and give me a pretty good massage at full volume. The cars that do SPL drags are just insane in the levels of bass that they produce. Go here: http://www.realmofexcursion.com/main.html and click on the videos there are some pretty crazy things...check videos of JL Audio's W7 or RE's (Reasonant Engineering) MT or XXX...totally crazy!! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2493 Registered: Mar-05 | OK, what kind of db numbers are we talking about then with a sub-LESS system? I have zero interest in becoming a subwoofer exhibitionist, especially since I mostly listen to jazz, classical, and a little vocal rock. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vai4meMichigan USA Post Number: 41 Registered: Dec-04 | I am not too sure about that. It would have to be measured. You could own 1 sub it doesn't have to be crazy. I know you into home audio so I know you understand the need for a sub. In a 5.1 system (or higher) the LFE channel is discreet and produces only those sounds. With a SQ system in a car you set cut off points via crossovers and eq's...so only certain sounds are produced by certain speakers...this lessens the amount of workload a "full range" speaker has to do...allowing the speaker to focus in on a more shallow range of Hz. thus the entire system sounds better. You can improve this sound even further by using component sets which are even more focused. To improve upon that just get into higher brands which use better materials to more accurately reproduce the sounds. |
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Gold Member Username: Kd7nfrMontpelier, ID United States Post Number: 1014 Registered: Apr-05 | This is completely off subject, but I just bought 100 Memorex blank CDs and their colored. Very sexy. (I just had to get that off my chest) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2495 Registered: Mar-05 | Andy, yeah I know that having a sub is ideal just to fill in the low end and spare the mid-woofs from the low low frequencies so that they can operate more efficiently. But lately I've actually turned off the HPF on my head unit (set at 80Hz) and the Polks actually sounded better with the music I listen to. Plus to be honest I don't think that the Infinity sub I have right now is getting enough power from the PPI amp (it's getting 2 of the 80watt channels bridged, so probably about 1x200-250w) because I can barely hear it---but again that's also due to the type of music I listen to. It probably needs about 500watts to really sound its best. And I definitely have no desire to get a second amp just for the sub, so that's why I decided to sell the sub and just go with a more powerful 2-channel amp for the Polks. |
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