Review of the JL w7 {13''}
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Water Unregistered guest | Pros Build, construction, power handling, massive magnet, it should be the best of everthing.. Cons ..But it'snot. Power hungry, inneficient, distorts way more than it shoud- read the review. The Bottom Line Let the buyer beware on this one. This sub should deliver ALOT more for the price- If you're still not sure, read the review again! Before I even begin this review and start a fire, I'm going to approach this review from several different aspects in order to provide the most fair and objective assessment of what should be a great subwoofer, but in some cases is, and in alot of cases, IS NOT. JL's "W7" series of subwoofers certainly popped up on everyone's radar quickly and by surprise when they were brought to market a few years back. The line has essentially remained the same- an 8, 10, 12 and 13 inch woofer are offered and I'm reviewing the 13 because by the obvious laws of physics, it plays the lowest and happens to be my favorite woofer in this line, although, as you probably observed from my tone in the opening paragraph, this woofer IS NOT infallable.. The 13W7 is an odd sized woofer- While most manufacturers offer 10 and 12, then 15 inch, JL chose a 13 because it fits in a more reasonably sized enclosure than a 15 just on diameter alone. (Ironically, enclosure size for all the W7's is NOT exactly reasonable, but we'll get to that later). The 13W7 is rated to play optimally at about 1000 watts of continuous (RMS) power. There's all types of power out there, from horrendous to fabulous- Watts come in all shapes and sizes. Having been involved in mobile audio for the majority of my life, and now an owner of a custom install shop, I've seen it done many MANY ways- however I'm not going to bother citing failure-stories of an idiot who tried putting a pyramid amp on a serious sub. In the case of THIS sub, a JL 1000/1, Van Gogh 1600.2 and a PPI PCX2400. All three amps are very good in terms of sound quality- and I'm sure if you're reading this you may already have an opinion on which is best- however I'll say from my own experience, the Van Gogh is absolutely the most superb sound-quality oriented, yet still punchy AND musical sounding amp line I've seen in a LONG, LONG time. All thee amps brought out different attributes in the woofer, yet the overall theme remained the same- keep reading, we'll get there. First the specs: a Dual 1 1/2 ohm voice coil sub, the 13W7 is rated at 86.3 dB 1w/1m efficiency- not the most efficient sub ever dreamed of, but when designed to handle GOBS and GOBS of power, essentially on par. The sub is free-air rated down to 23.5 hz -> this is one example of misleading specs given by JL- Many people don't understand Qvas, Vas etc- all industry terms (specifically Thiele-Small paramters) Most technicians don't have a very solid understanding of Thiele-Small theory, and quite honestly who the hell cares- As an audiophile myself, I've always found that specs easily lie- however I'd be alot more satisfied if JL offered actuall frequency extension measurement within a given reference enclosure (JL DOES offer blue-prints on their recomended Sealed AND ported enclosures- so why not offer LFE (low frequency entension) within +/- 1.5dB there???!?!!?! This upsets me- ALOT of companies are doing this now- sticking misleading T/S measurements in- I've seen it in my own shop: A Guy walks in thinking a 13W7 will PLAY DOWN TO 23.5 hZ and I have to correct the poor guy before he blows the better part of a grand on a sub that WILL NOT DO THAT! The 13W7 will play down to about 32Hz in a sealed enclosure within about 2 dB- this is pretty damned solid- however it's also something that doesn't require a grand to do, so we'll get into price considerations later. I've always favored Sealed enclosures over ported- I know most guys reding this are SPL (sound pressure level) guys- in case you're wondering what that is, SPL is a measurement of intensity or strength of bass- measured in decibels (dB) I've always been more interested in sound quality (SQ). JL reports that the W7 line is intended to deliver both- but in actuality its completely a SPL oriented sub and really misses the mark in terms of audiophile quality- before you get enraged, please keep reading- I'll prove it later... The first major gripe I'll have to cite about this sub is the inconvenience factor: Price AND Enclosure size are both captured within the "Inconvenience factor". This is a 750 dollar sub! Give or take- but we get 750 a piece for these, and believe me, they sell quite well- regardless that I openly don't recomend them! Obviously, this is a special woofer- weighing in at almost 60 pounds, this is a beast of a subwoofer- infact, it even comes double-packaged and MOUNTED TO A PIECE OF MDF BAFFLE IN ITS OWN BOX!!! There are some very ingenious pieces of engineering in the subwoofer- and for that reason, it's able to produce intense SPLs given quality wattage- however its the lack of accuracy (AGAIN) which upsets me sooo so much with this line. A long while back I wrote a review on a W6 woofers- they were GREAT for the money and for the punch- however they were clearly NOT very accurate. JL corrected this with the V2 version of the W6- it was a MUCH better woofer- it also costs over double what a regular W6 runs, but nevertheless, JL delivered the best of all worlds. With the W7, they didn't. In addition to the high cost, the recomended enclosure size it behemoth! JL's optimal recomendation is 1 7/8 cubic feet!! WOW- that is a MASSIVE box- and it will easliy take up the majority of the trunk in any small or mid sized sedan- alot of space in a large sedan AND it will diminish volume quickly in any SUV, even the giants out there! JL cites 15 3/4 high, 16 wide and 19 1/4 deep!! DAMN, THAT is one BIG MOMMA of a box! They also cite 3/4 MDF as wall material- to me, I find this inexplicable- a sub of this magnitude should be in a 1 inch thick MDF box with bracing- IT IS A POWERFUL SUB- the simple fact is if you drop even the best subwoofer in a crappy box, it is going to sound bad. period. I've always built top-notch boxes for all sub-installs we've done- the W7 requires ALOT of effort- the better the box, the better your sound. Still, even with the most carefully crafted enclosures, it's tough to pull the accuracy and SQ properties out of this sub that you would expect, having just paid almost a grand! Sadly, this is the next major gripe... Sound Quality (or lack there-of)... With all three amps on it, the W7 sounded powerful at all times- Different amps brought out differnt qualities. The JL 1000/1 was the most appropriate (ratings wise) amp for the application, delivering an even 1000 watts at the 3 ohm load resulting from a series-wired configuration on the 2 voice coils (standard setup, and how it is done with the W7's). The JL sounded punchy and clean, yet at super high volume, the clarity went out the window, as did all traces all musicality- the sub became a boom-monster and did not stay musical- the sub has been run with Boston Pro, Focal Utopia and Quart Premium & "Q" componets- all of the aforementioned can play VERY loud and VERY clean with good power- in all cases, the sub ran out of musicality long before the components came close. The same applied for the PPI amp - The precision power is by and large a SUPER SUPER powerful amp. It's also a monster in terms of size- at over 30 inches in length, I'd say in fairness, the inconvenience factor is equally at play with the PCX2400 as it is with the sub!!! The PPI however BEAT UP the 13W7 - despite it's massive structure and behemoth appearance, the PPI is not to be underestimated- it has ALOT of power and it is seriously punchy and explosively deep sounding. Even with the gains lowered and the boost cut ALOT, the 13W7 couldn't resolve the ultra lows with clarity and focus- even in the sealed box, which again, is my choice because it plays cleaner and inherently faster (at the expense of a few dB) the sub lost the musicality even sooner than with the JL amp. I should also mention though, at medium volumes, the sub POUNDED- it sounded punchier and more assertive than with the JL- most likely not ONLY because of higher power ratings on the PPI, but because the character of PPI watts- they've always been known for being punchier and livelier. At medium to medium-high volume, the PPI brought out the best attributes in terms of attack and pucnh- Rock, Funk and R&B were most enjoyable at these volumes with the PPI on the scene. The Van Gogh delivered the best all around mix of everything- it also maintained the most musicality on the 13W7 than any other amp- even though ultimately, again, distortion got the best of the W7 at super high volume as soon as the bass went low-low... Still, the Van Gogh made the JL come to life at all volumes- it sounded very musical and actually noticably more accurate - You can listen to the bass line on U2's "with or without you" and actually hear the notes turn flatter or sharper in the intro of the song depending on how good a box you build, the amp you use or any number of factors. Again- I'm gonna say it loud and clear: THE 13W7 IS NOT A SOUND QUALITY SUB- IT IS VERY MUCH AN SPL SUBWOOFER!!! In terms of SPLs, clearly the 13W7 delivers- although the distortion it exhibits at hi volumes is disturbing- no matter what kind of power you throw at it. There are a few other things I'm not crazy about- the mounting system for instance, it is neat- and certainly clean- but you have to be careful about doing it- the screws are actually beneath the surround- you need to remove a trim-ring to access them- the surround is foam (not Butyl- THIS really upset me, on a 750 dollar sub!!!) and so you have to be cautious working with a screw gun that close to the surround, especially when you need to kind of peel it back to get to the screws. Also, aside from the fact that the sub requires a MASSIVE enclosure, whether ported or sealed, the bottom line is this thing requires ALOT of watts. None of the amps I've listed could be called "cheap" in fact they're all MSRP'ing way over 500 bucks- street prices are around 550 to 700 for the amps I listed, so by the time you factor in building a box, installing the amp and getting everything set up, this simple subwoofer addition is going to be a 1500 to 2000 dollar project... I gotta tell ya, unless you competing for SPLs, there is NO REASON any logical person interested in SQ would opt to buy this sub- aside from the fact that it doesn't deliver SQ as I've written above, it's VERY EXPENSIVE and VERY short on value... Its tough to try and stick a "stars" rating on this sub- in terms of uniqueness and ingenuity it's a 5 1/2!!! In terms of SPL its easliy a 4 1/2 ir not a 5 (call it 4 because of the distortion issue- just because a machine doesn't measure it, my ears do -and for christ's sake, I like my music LOUD! Lastly, in terms of Sound quality, I'd be hard pressed to give this any more than a 2, because with all the bells and whistles and ingenuity built, I'd expect a HELL of alot more- and this is considering I put good power on the sub, I can only imagine the dissapointment of someone who throws 400 or so mediocre watts on the inneficient power-hungry beast of a sub- I would be REALLY upset if I just paid that much to get that little... Again- it's a very tough call to give a recomendation to this sub- It depends on your purposes and your wallet- for half the price, you could get 2 W6V2's and power them more easliy, get better sound quality and all the usable volume you'd ever need... NOT TO MENTION 2 OF THEM WOULD TAKE UP ABOUT THE SAME ROOM AS 1 W7!!!! How clear of an argument do you need? In closure, I'm gonna say this is a niche sub- strictly for those who compete and make money and trophies by making more DB's - but in terms of listenability and sound quality, this one's not getting any raves from me! Again- ALOT od consideration should go into buying this sub. Hope this helps you make a good choice- whether you opt for or against it... Recommended No Amount Paid (US$): 750.00 |
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Silver Member Username: Iufan4lifeulLouisville, Kentucky Post Number: 189 Registered: May-05 | nice detailed review, I have personally never heard the sub but I just have to say you can't really argue against what you said. I guess it is up to individuals to decide if it is right for them or not etc... Post any other reviews you have on here, I will be sure to read them! |
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Silver Member Username: Dominirica012Charlotte, North Carolina US Post Number: 184 Registered: May-05 | so in your opinion how does the W7 compare to the MTX 9500 in temrs of SPL and SQ |
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jl daddy-o Unregistered guest | sounds like this guy can't design a decent enclosure, set up the gains or tune the headunit to save his life... review made me laugh |
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Water Unregistered guest | sorry quick shot Not my words I am going to let you know what i personally think of the w7 tommorow I will go listen to it Unfortunatly i wont be able to hear the MTX 9500 there just aint many folks selling that brand here jl daddy-o go check the review of the 12 inch w7 aswell chris not my stuff i will post any reviews I find that are detailed and intelligent so look out for them |
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Silver Member Username: Iufan4lifeulLouisville, Kentucky Post Number: 193 Registered: May-05 | Could you do a review of the new Kicker CVR12? It would be much appreciated! |
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down with jl Unregistered guest | i will stand my that review becouse i have one and now its sitting in the subwoffer grave yard ....called the closet |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4228 Registered: May-04 | As much as the reviewer brags about how different the amplifiers sounded, it's a dead giveaway that either a) he's full of it or b)he's driving the amplifiers into clipping. Amplifiers within their limits don't sound like anything, period. Numerous tests have verified this time and time again. You're not special, your ears are not special, you're simply putting your amplifiers under a strain by clipping them. A true SQ nut would set gains correctly with an oscilloscope and choose a volume level that doesn't stress the amplifier. With that said, I'd guess b, and any ultimate SQ sub will still sound like crap if the amplifier is clipping. Since he likes his music LOUD! and expects it to sound good at that volume level, he needs to use a well designed ported enclosure to keep distortion down at high volumes, or choose a sub with high linearity such as a Brahma or a RE X.X.X. This is an example of failing to choose equipment that will accomodate what your goals are. No, I'm not a W7 cheerleader, but it isn't that bad. I do prefer the W6v2 for SQ as many others, but the W7 isn't a crappy sub. |
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WATER Unregistered guest | Jonathan what amp is the PPl he speaks of and why did he feel this amp was more musical then the slash amp?Im curious about that? I actually put these reviws up to see how can this amp be better then the jl but ill find a review on other request if possible |
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Anonymous | http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xPF-PPI_PCX_2400 |
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the one 1 Unregistered guest | i have it the ppi 2400 and the jl 1000/1 it has 1600 watts pluse i stand by both. ppi has more power but i just paid 500$ for hahaha i riped him off Jonathan quit ackting like a ho no one pushed the amps to clip i did the same experment with my w7 13 and ppi ......... whats your problem? it people like you that start making thing up and turn a good reivew in to qustion....you are a W7 cheerleader and got the stick in your as#$. I own 90% of this stuff in hear and its sitting around my house in the grage all over in cars what ever. i have it you dont and if you did you would know the problems with w7 13 and a jl 1000/1 well the amp is love no problems there. but the sub is a hack markting ploy i bought in to it .... so did so many others some dont like to fase a 1000 dolla mistake. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4234 Registered: May-04 | 1) If I thought the W7 was gods gift to the audiophile, I would run a W7. I used to sell them. I could have gotten a W7 free, but I opted to pay for the ID Max I'm using because I feel it is a better SQ subwoofer. No, I don't think they're the ultimate SQ or even SQL sub. No, I don't feel they're worth the retail price, and no I don't see them as the god of all car subs. They use a short gap, long coil design with a 6:1 coil to gap ratio, the inductance is high, the motor tends to overdamp the driver, and it isn't the best sealed box performer. Response tends to be boomy and overemphasized with a loss in higher frequency output, which makes it hard to match with a 2 way component system. It does mate well with a powerful front stage, though. But, the W7 has fewer problems than the vast majority of other subs out there. They're not crap, I do agree the subwoofer doesn't justify the cost by any means, but at least compare them in performance instead of performance per dollar. 2) The difference you will hear in an amplifier won't be distortion if it isn't clipping. You'll simply hear power variations, as you stated, the PPI amp is more powerful. Since many high end amplifiers are underrated anyway, power fluctuates by a large amount even in the same class of amplifiers. But anytime you hear praise about the SQ of an amplifier, such as sparkling highs, added detail, more accurate bass, and other hoopla, it isn't due to topology and technobabble or a .005% difference in distortion. A watt is a watt. Any decent amplifier has distortion characteristics that are inaudible while the amplifier is within it's power capabilities, especially when it is in a noisy car environment. The only time you will hear distortion is during clipping, that is when an amplifier starts to show it's design, be it transistor or tube, but in the case of that you're comparing a worst case scenario anyway and it should be avoided since you're risking damage to both the amplifier and the subwoofer. You'd be surprised how often an amplifier clips if you view it on a scope. Setting gains by ear and setting them by a scope gives entirely different results. Most people are disappointed after they set gains with a scope because it doesn't get as loud, thus it's not clipping. 3) If you still think you can hear a difference, take it to Richard Clark. You can make $10,000 cash if you can tell the difference in amplifiers when both are within their range. |
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Bronze Member Username: Audiobass10Cape Coral, FL United States Post Number: 21 Registered: Jul-05 | "1) If I thought the W7 was gods gift to the audiophile, I would run a W7. I used to sell them. I could have gotten a W7 free, but I opted to pay for the ID Max I'm using because I feel it is a better SQ subwoofer. No, I don't think they're the ultimate SQ or even SQL sub. No, I don't feel they're worth the retail price, and no I don't see them as the god of all car subs. They use a short gap, long coil design with a 6:1 coil to gap ratio, the inductance is high, the motor tends to overdamp the driver, and it isn't the best sealed box performer. Response tends to be boomy and overemphasized with a loss in higher frequency output, which makes it hard to match with a 2 way component system. It does mate well with a powerful front stage, though. But, the W7 has fewer problems than the vast majority of other subs out there. They're not crap, I do agree the subwoofer doesn't justify the cost by any means, but at least compare them in performance instead of performance per dollar. 2) The difference you will hear in an amplifier won't be distortion if it isn't clipping. You'll simply hear power variations, as you stated, the PPI amp is more powerful. Since many high end amplifiers are underrated anyway, power fluctuates by a large amount even in the same class of amplifiers. But anytime you hear praise about the SQ of an amplifier, such as sparkling highs, added detail, more accurate bass, and other hoopla, it isn't due to topology and technobabble or a .005% difference in distortion. A watt is a watt. Any decent amplifier has distortion characteristics that are inaudible while the amplifier is within it's power capabilities, especially when it is in a noisy car environment. The only time you will hear distortion is during clipping, that is when an amplifier starts to show it's design, be it transistor or tube, but in the case of that you're comparing a worst case scenario anyway and it should be avoided since you're risking damage to both the amplifier and the subwoofer. You'd be surprised how often an amplifier clips if you view it on a scope. Setting gains by ear and setting them by a scope gives entirely different results. Most people are disappointed after they set gains with a scope because it doesn't get as loud, thus it's not clipping. 3) If you still think you can hear a difference, take it to Richard Clark. You can make $10,000 cash if you can tell the difference in amplifiers when both are within their range." Jonathan, Absolutely correct, like usual. I'm over on CAC btw. I just made this point in a different post about 5 minutes ago. This is my 2nd day browsing the forum and I must say there are far too many personal attacks from the nOObs twoards the more experienced members. Look guys, if you don't know what you're talking about, feel free to ask questions..but don't flame other posters when they're the ones actually contributing to the forum. This forum needs moderation..badly. Rant over. |
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hahaha Unregistered guest | you are not god where your opinion should be set in stone sq is a OPINION a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty, people go aroud talking about what sound good ... and that my dear is up to the person that is listening. and all of the people that "were in to sq" are full of it. helping ? where i dont see how how what they dont like is bad. this toppic is on the pros and cons of a subwoffer and any one that has a w7 knows the problems that it has.... no cliping no me no this other sub......this is what was said and done and what took place ..... i mean have you ever done somthing like that ?you can type 2 pages about how i am right in this game there is technical and supper technical one meaning the stats then the others where you all take.....no no you have to build the box from a tree in the amazon but you must wait till 3 am before cutting? and setting your amps have to be 0.000000005 THD and set with the stars in heven.Richard Clark ...what are u all smoking major yaa ? i wish will all your knowage could be put to use insted of telling other nothing of youse..W7...ya ya its Crapppp... |
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Silver Member Username: Car_bangsPost Number: 133 Registered: May-05 | i told u people along time ago my kicker was better |
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Silver Member Username: FordpwrLos angeles, CA Usa Post Number: 272 Registered: Dec-04 | W7's are awesome subs regardless of what you nuts read elsewhere. 99% of you have never owned or listened to it. I am not a JL fan but that doesnt make 'em horrible subs in my eyes. They are awesome subs. # 1 reason why people hate JL or have something bad to say about JL is because THEY can't afford it. |
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Bronze Member Username: Audiobass10Cape Coral, FL United States Post Number: 40 Registered: Jul-05 | "you are not god where your opinion should be set in stone sq is a OPINION a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty, people go aroud talking about what sound good ... and that my dear is up to the person that is listening. and all of the people that "were in to sq" are full of it. helping ? where i dont see how how what they dont like is bad. this toppic is on the pros and cons of a subwoffer and any one that has a w7 knows the problems that it has.... no cliping no me no this other sub......this is what was said and done and what took place ..... i mean have you ever done somthing like that ?you can type 2 pages about how i am right in this game there is technical and supper technical one meaning the stats then the others where you all take.....no no you have to build the box from a tree in the amazon but you must wait till 3 am before cutting? and setting your amps have to be 0.000000005 THD and set with the stars in heven.Richard Clark ...what are u all smoking major yaa ? i wish will all your knowage could be put to use insted of telling other nothing of youse..W7...ya ya its Crapppp..." Showed your intelligence their. Learn how to speak before trying to prove a point, especially when it's a childish, ignorant one. I couldn't understand one thing you were saying, and I doubt anyone else could. This is one big unmoderated forum isn't it? Are there any mods or admins around. Jesus. |
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Water Unregistered guest | Ok I went and heard the w7 to 1000/1 amp I drove all around town to hear it i didnt know there were so many children on this board so I will just say this The whole system was a Disapointment Iv been called an idiot and all i ever did was post reviews and guess what folks!!!!!!! I rather have the Rockford t2's, 1000/1 hooked up to a single w7 in a suv,I asked the guy is that the loudest it would go?and this was PORTED! MY t2's will get deeper all day everyday! louder all day everyday! I cant speak on SQ I beleave that is just an opion but it is very clean In all honesty the t10001bd pushes the subwoofer to go deeper and I beleave overall just have more power they told me the 10001bd was a dirty amp that blew a 12'' w7 this even made the w7 loose even more credibility non of the stores has the item hooked up and tell me when purchasing subs and amps you really just have to look at the SPECS? My opion is If you are afraid the subs wont sound good in open space then dont sell them, they all purposely do not keep the subs on display ever The alpine guys the same way I could not check out the new X type alpine sub same EXCUSE you cant really get the full potential because of the open space But....Go to an Rockford dealer all up and down the street here They have theres on display and the T2s Surprised me In a Wide open space I got them and they sound even better in the car BUT I new the w7 wernt going to be better My whole reason for posting these is to see if I should go with the 2 jl 1000/1 and for 1k a piece at the dealer this is too hard of a desion because the w7 dosent get as low as the t2 I cant tell if its the amp or the sub. If there is anybody that knows why the JL amp wont push the sub as deep as the 10001bd pushes its sub then let me know I think On JL audio site they say there amp is for to deliver bass and sq while most give 1 or the other all I can say is what I heard was purely a sq amp with not much of deep bass Mayb this is because of the woofer? basicly Im trying to find a reason TO BUY THE AMPs TAKE IT FROM HERE CAR AUDIO EXPERTS i hope my questions can be answered here instead of having to go ask the sales men |
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strongcola Unregistered guest | i have the jl 1000/1 its a good amp but for the cost and the power, i bought a used ppi pcx 2400 for 500 swiched them out and now i use it for a door stop. its a killer amp and it will push what u throw at its the w7 it just sucks. there amp is good. i bought in to the w7 now iam stuck with it |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4242 Registered: May-04 | Yes, I did state my opinion, no it isn't set in stone, nor did I state that it was. The simple fact that I was the person that stated it should be enough, but since that seems to be an issue, here's your notice. It's my opinion. Furthermore, simply because I did state my opinion doesn't put the reviewers line of thought in jeopardy of being monopolized by my commentary. I was not appaled at the fact that he didn't like the W7. I stated that the W7 wasn't my choice of subwoofer either. My point was that he was giving it a negative review for the wrong reasons. This, after all, is a review. It is posted on an audio forum, I'd assume to because the poster was questioning this review and wanted to get our commentary on the issue. If not, there is no point in posting it on a forum, you may as well just believe the review and not buy the sub. The reason I made a comment is because the reviewer used a lot of misconceptions to develop his opinion, and thus his results were skewed. If you are going to steer a person away from a product, at least do it for the right reasons. I feel that if you are going to offer a technical review of a product, you need to at least comment on things that you are truly familiar with. There are a couple of examples of his lack of knowledge in the review: "The sub is free-air rated down to 23.5 hz -> this is one example of misleading specs given by JL- Many people don't understand Qvas, Vas etc- all industry terms (specifically Thiele-Small paramters) Most technicians don't have a very solid understanding of Thiele-Small theory, and quite honestly who the hell cares- As an audiophile myself, I've always found that specs easily lie- however I'd be alot more satisfied if JL offered actuall frequency extension measurement within a given reference enclosure (JL DOES offer blue-prints on their recomended Sealed AND ported enclosures- so why not offer LFE (low frequency entension) within +/- 1.5dB there???!?!!?! This upsets me- ALOT of companies are doing this now- sticking misleading T/S measurements in- I've seen it in my own shop: A Guy walks in thinking a 13W7 will PLAY DOWN TO 23.5 hZ and I have to correct the poor guy before he blows the better part of a grand on a sub that WILL NOT DO THAT!" This statement is implying the JL Audio is lying on their specifications, when the real problem is that the reviewer doesn't understand Thiele/Small parameters enough to know what Fs implies. The specification that he was looking at is the resonant frequency of the subwoofer, which does not indicate the frequency response of the subwoofer, but the frequency where resonance occurs in an infinite baffle setup. It isn't related to frequency response in any way, shape, or form. But the reviewer continues to elaborate with false claims and he flames JL solely because of his own incompetence on the topic. "The JL sounded punchy and clean, yet at super high volume, the clarity went out the window, as did all traces all musicality- the sub became a boom-monster and did not stay musical" I'd like to see the short list of subwoofers that are capable of providing audiophile clarity at super high volume. The linearity of the W7 at high volumes is better than 90% of car audio subwoofers out there, what I'm getting at, is that all subwoofers lose quality at high volumes, this is due to the voice coil moving far enough past the magnetic gap to cause a loss of linearity and thus more distortion. There isn't a motor design out there that has overcome the problem yet, though there are some that are better than others. The only solution is to either use more subwoofers or to use a more efficient enclosure, such as a ported enclosure, which is the reasoning for my statement above. Ported enclosures offer more mechanical control, thus lower excursion, and keep the subwoofer within linearity at high volumes. This lowers distortion and gives better clarity when pushed to the limit. It is also more efficient, achieving the same loudness with less power. He's made the statement that he likes it loud, and hasn't taken necessary measures to get clarity at that level. Instead he is stuck on the typical sealed=SQ and ported=SPL misconception, in his case, ported would be a better enclosure. "Even with the gains lowered and the boost cut ALOT, the 13W7 couldn't resolve the ultra lows with clarity and focus- even in the sealed box, which again, is my choice because it plays cleaner and inherently faster (at the expense of a few dB) the sub lost the musicality even sooner than with the JL amp." There is another proof of his misconception about enclosures. Sealed does offer better transient response, but cleaner isn't always the case. Distortion is always lower with a ported enclosure at or above tuning due to the control, and ultra low frequencies is where ported has the largest advantage over sealed. He needs to study enclosure design and their pros and cons. The message also implies that he cut the boost a lot, you shouldn't use boost to begin with. "most likely not ONLY because of higher power ratings on the PPI, but because the character of PPI watts- they've always been known for being punchier and livelier" A watt is a watt. Watts come from voltage and current, not amplifier topology, design, or the manufacturer. There isn't a such thing as a "punchier, livelier watt", there is only power variation. If you measured three car engines that produced the exact same amount of power, say 300 lb ft of torque, the power output is the same. Doesn't matter if it came from Ford, Chevy, or Dodge, it's the same amount of power, and will perform exactly as such. Same goes for amplifier power. You'll note that during the entire review, his sole complaint in sound quality was loss of clarity at super high volumes. You'll also notice that he kept the setup exactly the same, he never altered enclosure design to see if results improved, never changed vehicles, the only variable was that he kept changing out amplifiers (which offer the least benefit) thinking it would make a substantial difference in sound quality when the only thing it changed was power output to the subwoofer, thus driving it further into distortion due to overpowering the subwoofer in an enclosure that clearly wasn't intended for high volume performance in the first place. As I said in my first commentary, this is a classic example of a person that failed to choose equipment that was right for the job, and after getting the equipment, he failed to set it up to correctly meet his goals due to his misconception about how to achieve quality sound. This is a user error, not JL's. |
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Water Unregistered guest | strongcola LMFAO@your User Name thanks for your response after reading jonathans post i think it was the subwoofer I didnt like it do you want to sell your 1000/1 amplifier? i would like to buy it if you offer a decent price ''''''''''' A watt is a watt. Watts come from voltage and current, not amplifier topology, design, or the manufacturer. There isn't a such thing as a "punchier, livelier watt", there is only power variation. If you measured three car engines that produced the exact same amount of power, say 300 lb ft of torque, the power output is the same. Doesn't matter if it came from Ford, Chevy, or Dodge, it's the same amount of power, and will perform exactly as such. Same goes for amplifier power. ''''''' hey Jonathan you been great I apreciate your post I aint make the post about the sub really it was about the amp a watt is a watt did it for me basicly your saying the amp has nothing to do with how deep the subwoofer reaches long as it gets the wattage right? and also how come JL brags about how some amps are made for sq and some spl but the 1000/1 gives both? |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4244 Registered: May-04 | Marketing strategy. Any well made amplifier will sound exactly the same as long as it isn't clipping, and the 1000/1 is a well made amplifier. I know you weren't the one that wrote the review, so don't take any of my commentary personally as it wasn't directed at any of your comments, but those of the original reviewer. |
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Bronze Member Username: Audiobass10Cape Coral, FL United States Post Number: 41 Registered: Jul-05 | "Marketing strategy. Any well made amplifier will sound exactly the same as long as it isn't clipping, and the 1000/1 is a well made amplifier. I know you weren't the one that wrote the review, so don't take any of my commentary personally as it wasn't directed at any of your comments, but those of the original reviewer." Thank you. You basically vouched for other threads I posted in where I told the member a subwoofer's sound is not changed when two amplifers have the same output, one being a high quality amp and one being a low quality amp when both are performing within their limits. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4251 Registered: May-04 | "My opion is If you are afraid the subs wont sound good in open space then dont sell them, they all purposely do not keep the subs on display ever" That is because W7s are expensive subwoofers, not because they are scared to display them in open air. Customers frequently bring little kids into the showrooms and the W7 is a very expensive sub to mess up. Audio stores could give a crap less if somebody punches a T2, a Punch, Power, whatever, they'll just drag another one out and sell that one at discount price, no biggie. RFs are cheap, JLs aren't. As far as the depth of the subwoofers, that is highly dependant on the vehicles you're comparing. You are comparing multiple T2s to a single W7 for loudness, also in different vehicles. The T2s are already going to have a 6db advantage due to surface area of having another sub. In case you're wondering, that's percieved as around twice as loud. The louder you get, the deeper it sounds to your ears. It's the way the ear percieves volume, as it goes up, bass seems more powerful. |
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Bronze Member Username: UsnavyEVERETT, WA US Post Number: 19 Registered: Jul-05 | This is off the subject but would you go with a W7 12 over a Eclipse Titanium 12 for SQ. |
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Water Unregistered guest | ok jonathan that is right there were 2 t2s for as the cars I compared the what I heard In the Suv to what I heard In the store what I have is not fair at all to compare t20001 to 2 t2 15s in a car twice the power twice the subwoofer the 10001bd pushing 2 12 t1s in store slash pushing w7 in suv I dont think the fact that the ts were louder made them sound deeper im not that green hahaha all I can say is jonothan beleave me when i TELL YOU THE T1 AMP has more power then the slash Its like 400bucks try them on 1 t2 compared to the slash w7 in the same car I will even BUY A METER and bring it |
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Bronze Member Username: Audiobass10Cape Coral, FL United States Post Number: 62 Registered: Jul-05 | Water, if you really wanna prove the RF amp puts out more power, why not bench both yourself? |
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