Has anyone ever tried using "non car" raw woofers?
|
Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 149 Registered: Mar-04 | it seems even in the home audio section, i often see recommendations for car woofers for loading DIY home subs. the prices for car woofers are usually insane! LOL there are many respected companies like audax, peerless, and focal etc. that make "audiophile grade" woofers that are used in big expensive home systems, but usually at prices MUCH lower than those for autosound woofers. i mean you can get a $50-$80 cast woofer that i bet easily matches the sound of the typical $200 entry level stamped steel woofer from the mass produced autosound brands like JBL or sony etc. the last time i saw raw JBL drivers, they were alot cheaper than their autosound ones. even dynaudio drivers (when they were still avalable raw) only sold for $300 or less for their top of the line woofers, yet MANY of the woofers that autosound people are buying are in the $500 to $1000 range. are you REALLY getting that much better sound for your dollar, and if so, then why aren't any high end home speaker makers using autosound woofers? i've always wondered about the "big buck" phenomenon in autosound. i'd like to hear what you think. before anyone talks about low impedences in autosound, most of the woofers by the home audio brands are sold in both 8 ohm and 4 ohm versions. for much less than you'd pay for a top of the line JL audio woofer, you could easily buy a kevlar woofer or two from a home audio brand. i'm strictly speaking about sound quality and not SPL dragracing mind you. for what it's worth, i don't have a car or want one, but i'd like to upgrade my 12" 8ohm/8ohm 93dB treated paper rubber surround 50oz. (i think) sub ($35 i think) for something that would have higher SQ and play faster and tighter, but i just don't care for autosound prices....eg. $150 for a stamped steel sub when i can get a diecast one for 1/2 that. actually, if i didn't have to buy another box, i'd rather get an 8" sub for tighter bass and nicer rolloff. i HAD to buy a 12" box as the 8" version was sold out when i bought it. even in a 3/4" reenforced & lined box with 3" & 4" foam wedges, i still can't get much rolloff or increased speed out of my 12" which is almost as sluggish as a ported sub. i DESPISE boom. i want thump. |
|
Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 2855 Registered: Aug-04 | You have to remember, home audio subs are built for use in a large room, and sound very different in cars, and vise versa. Also, these home audio subs you are talking about that cost many times less than other subs, probably aren't comparable in quality. You do get what you pay for, no matter if it's auto or home sound. "for much less than you'd pay for a top of the line JL audio woofer, you could easily buy a kevlar woofer or two from a home audio brand" First, what does kevlar have to do with your point? Second, what brand is it, and is it comparable in quality to JL. Not all car audio subs are $1000, and I really wouldn't consider an entry level sub to be $200 like you stated either. Everybody starts out with cheap subs. Heck, you can a get decent, good quality sub for 50 bucks, you just need to know what to get. I also don't understand how you think so many home audio subs are so much cheaper than car audio. Mind you I know nothing about home audio, but anytime I see what I think is a decent home audio sub, the prices are rediculous. |
|
Bronze Member Username: DarkseidPost Number: 65 Registered: Feb-05 | I haven't done it, but I one of my friends thought it would be an idea to try. Needless to say, the speakers lasted about a month. They just aren't designed to handle being bounced around in a car. |
|
Silver Member Username: IlluminatorPost Number: 570 Registered: Apr-05 | Exactly, the reason car audio subs are more expensive is because they are built to withstand the harsh car environment unlike home audio subs which sit on a stable surface in a climate controlled room. |
|
Silver Member Username: Daddy_phat_sackPost Number: 227 Registered: May-05 | my dad has these jvc 15"s in his home stero.... it hits hard!!!! u turn the bass up and then turn the volume like 1/3 the way up and u cant hardly hear with late night tip playin.... |
|
Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4109 Registered: May-04 | Car audio equipment isn't higher priced because it's better equipment, I can promise you that. Most car audio equipment sucks in quality compared to a home driver, that's why you'll notice that the best car audio drivers are based on home audio equipment, such as the Rainbow Audio References (SEAS excel drivers) the Alpine F#1 Status system (Scanspeak Revelator drivers), the Dynaudio components (based on their own home speakers), also others such as Focal (JM Lab home speakers), MB Quart (also make their own home drivers) and then others such as CDT (primarily Vifa drivers). DLS is another. All of the above you've likely heard of and heard great reviews of, and all of the above are based on drivers created for home audio or are drivers that are made by OEM manufacturers that primarily produce equipment for home audio. The sad fact is that most companies pull a raw driver off a shelf (same raw drivers you're talking about) and then minorly modify them to change a little, then slap a logo and some fancy design on it and call it a day. So why are you paying more for a car audio component system? You're paying for modified suspension Q, which enables the drivers to be more well suited to a car environment such as infinite baffle installations, and you're paying for the crossover design (which is THE most important part of a component system). If you can work around those two things, then you can build a system off of home drivers quite easily. The good thing about home audio drivers is that most of them are optimized for ported enclosures, which in many cases means they also work well in a small sealed enclosure. That is a benefit for those that want to install component speakers in kick panels, or people who just don't want a humungous sub box in their trunk. Car audio subs are beginning to go that way too, BTW. If you choose correctly, raw drivers can outperform the majority of car audio component systems quite easily if you know what you're doing, many times for 1/4 to 1/2 the cost. For example, look at the Rainbow Audio Reference component system I mentioned above. You're going to pay $7000 for the 2 way component system and crossover for it. The drivers used for the component system are SEAS Excel home audio drivers (paper cone version), modified in their suspension Q for a car environment and they are the paper cone version instead of the magnesium cone. I can buy the same woofer (quality wise, suspension is a bit different) for around $150 each on www.madisound.com, I can also buy the equivalent midrange and tweeter for less per unit than the woofer cost. The $3000 Alpine F#1 Status system, all Scanspeak Revelator drivers, in which I can also purchase those drivers on madisound averaging around $200 per driver, and they do come in a 4 ohm version. Anyway, even in your case with subs, the best thing to do is start researching drivers, the best thing to do is to look at the subs you're considering and plug them into WinISD to see what type of enclosure they work well with. |
|
Silver Member Username: Monkey_manPost Number: 175 Registered: May-05 | I bought some speakers from value village and replaced the subs with car audio. The bass is nice, but the car subs use 4 ohm and home audio usually uses 8 ohm i think. But, it works fine for me sounds great. I just threw in some crappy car audio subs that cost like 30 bucks. |
|
Silver Member Username: Mikechec9Chicago/atlanta Post Number: 169 Registered: May-05 | my brahmas are hybrids. they utilize the motor structure from the adire sadhara home driver and a tumult dust cap which was also initially a home driver. this version of the xbl2 magnet works essentially identical to the mk2's but differs in cosmetics. the fact that adire has recently made the tumult the top of the line driver (in excess of 700.00 msrp) speaks volumes to the strength of the home audio influence on car audio. also, if you look at the new zapco drivers, components and subs, they are manufatured by their sister company ESB which makes Italian home speakers. some of which i have seen for 7000.00. if i spent as much time at home as i do in my car (and made twice as much money) i would certainly invest in a home audio system as elaborate as my car's. |
|
Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 113 Registered: Apr-05 | The question was: Thread: Has anyone ever tried using "non car" raw woofers? Ummmmmmm ................ Yeah, all the time. I have built more systems using Peerless, Vifa, Focal, Eaton, Dynaudio, Audax, Seas, systems than any other brands out there. I preffer using these brands over car brands and raw drivers because they are better quality in design, and performance. As far as resistence is concerned, I don't think it matters much. A 4 ohm driver isnt twice as loud as an 8 ohm driver. The only difference is that the amp recognizes a lesser resistence on the 4 ohm, and therefore is able to push a higher wattage with the 4 ohm load than compared to an 8 ohm load. So now that loudness is out of the question... Generally lower resistence drivers mean that they allow more electrical current and usually are weak in sound quality and control, compared to higher resistence drivers. As far as physics are concerned, I have yet to find a quality car speaker. Car speakers are designed to be loud. This makes them harsh, and out of phase. The acoustics in the car really suck. This has to do with the location of the speakers. A midrange driver and tweeter in the doors or kick-pannel and a sub in the trunk, does not compare to the acoustics in a living room when you place a two-way design spaced at 60* off center (right and left) and you are listening to them in the sweet spot. The imaging you get from the home system I just mentioned and compare that to the car system I just mentioned is like the difference between night and day. |
|
Silver Member Username: IlluminatorPost Number: 591 Registered: Apr-05 | " The imaging you get from the home system I just mentioned and compare that to the car system I just mentioned is like the difference between night and day." Car audio is challenging, naturally. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4121 Registered: May-04 | Some problems can be overcome, but it takes a LOT of experimentation and also prepping to get a car to sound good. If you were talking about a McLaren F1 or another car with a center seat, it would help a lot. I personally can't afford a McLaren F1, so I have to stick to experimentation  . Some of the car brands aren't bad and sound very natural when installed well, such as Dynaudio, Focal, Rainbow, etc. All use drivers that Mixneffect has mentioned, though |
|
Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 160 Registered: Mar-04 | i'm not talking about "generic" woofers. i'm talking about RESPECTED woofer manufactureres like SEAS audax focal ATC and so on. the very same hight tech material woofers that JMlabs (focal) puts in their $70,000 flagship towers are available for around $200-$300 which is virtually "entry level" for car audio. why did i mention kevlar? i mentioned it because it's a very expensive material to use as a woofer cone compared to the typical CHEAPER plastics and coated paper cones or even aliminum used in carsound. the only place that i can see where auto woofers are possibly superior to "home woofers" is that "competition grade" woofers have larger magnets and higher excursions for SPL drag racing. i have NO INTEREST in gut massages. i'm into speed and sound quality only. take note... many people are recommending auto woofers for home sub DIYs. regardless of their intended use... i still think $1000 for a single driver (unless it's one of those 20"+ units i've seen somewhere) is just insane. but then again... i wouldn't be "budget minded: cheapskate" if i thought otherwise. my generic $40 driver gives me more bass than i want in my apartment. i decided that it wasn't worth trying to upgrade and finally installed the driver. giving it an airtight seal tightened my bass up alot. p.s. i seem to remember reading somewhere that bass distortion is much harder to hear than higher frequency distortions. i THINK the authour said that 10% THD is virtually inaudable in the bass region which surprised me. my idea of the "ultimate subwoofer" is an electrostatic panel. talk about lightning fast bass transients! |
|
Silver Member Username: AlpineuserWinchester, TN Post Number: 559 Registered: Mar-05 | most car subs are also designed for the cabin gain in your car |
|
Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 162 Registered: Mar-04 | by the way... as a woofer's entire job is to vibrate at high velocities, i don't buy that "cars vibrate alot" argument for a moment. LOL surely a woofer takes much more abuse just doing it's job. i do know that car interiors emphasize the midbass (if i remember right) having read that somewhere. it's just silly to me that the price for a top of the line state of the art home sub is the price of an ENTRY LEVEL sub for car audio. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4149 Registered: May-04 | Cars emphasize low to upper bass region. Car subs aren't really designed any differently than home woofers in function, in a car a sealed box already achieves a near flat response (when built correctly) due to the 12db rolloff below the resonant frequency of the system. It balances out pretty well in most cases. Main emphasis of car subs over home subs is enclosure compatibility. |
|
Silver Member Username: Mikechec9Chicago/atlanta Post Number: 236 Registered: May-05 | "it's just silly to me that the price for a top of the line state of the art home sub is the price of an ENTRY LEVEL sub for car audio." sorry, posted in the wrong thread http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3275%26item%3D5783264597% 26 http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sonus/prod_stradivari.htm#spec as i was saying, not certain as to when CA drivers became so much more than "St of the Art" home subs. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4151 Registered: May-04 | "why did i mention kevlar? i mentioned it because it's a very expensive material to use as a woofer cone compared to the typical CHEAPER plastics and coated paper cones or even aliminum used in carsound." Doesn't make it a better cone material. Paper and plastic are widely used because they are very well damped, they are much more acoustically dead than aluminum or kevlar. Plastic isn't exactly cheap anymore. Trust me, I used to work at a plant producing packaging film. Raw materials have skyrocket over the last few years due to raising petroleum costs, about 4x the cost of what they used to be in the case of where I worked. Drawback to paper and plastic is their cone stiffness, in which both are treated in various ways to combat the problem by impregnating minerals like mica, treating with epoxy or similar material for paper cones, weaving fiber in the mix, and so forth. On the other side of the fence, Kevlar and Aluminum are poorly damped, making them difficult to work with. This leans them to need added damping via careful surround and suspension selection and possible cone treatment. With subs it isn't as much of an issue, with midbasses and midrange drivers it can either give really good or really sucky results depending on the user/designer of the system. |
|
Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 2887 Registered: Aug-04 | Exactly. |
|
Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 132 Registered: Apr-05 | I preffer treated paper. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, love that sound. Hard to beat em. Speed, charachter, resonance, and it doesnt break up like aluminum or kevlar. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4152 Registered: May-04 | "I preffer treated paper. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, love that sound. Hard to beat em." I agree. The main reason paper is looked down upon is because it can be extremely good or extremely crappy, dependant on if it's coming from Scan speak or some crappy stock speaker that came from a car door. I can respect rigid cones, I just don't like taming resonance with notch filters, I'd rather it not be there. Like the Seas drivers with a 16db peak at 4.5khz, that's just a NASTY peak to try to notch out. Kevlar isn't any easier. |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics