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Bronze Member Username: CenusHicksville, Ohio Usa Post Number: 63 Registered: Jan-05 | An avalanch or L7 which one would be louder if they are the same size, in the same box, and had enough power or is there anything louder than both these subs for under $350 |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 2590 Registered: Dec-04 | all you want is SPL? I dont know it would be close but if you want any sort of SQ and reliability at all I would go with the Avalanche! |
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Gold Member Username: SubfanaticWalton, Ky Post Number: 3042 Registered: Dec-04 | somen that is 350 is a eclipes ti 15 lol |
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Silver Member Username: AlpineuserPost Number: 233 Registered: Mar-05 | would be close i would say. l7 12 is a little smaller than a 15 so more surface area but the avalanche has 27mm xmax so they would be pretty close to each other. avalanche is a all around better sub and has 3 year warranties as aposed to kickers 90 day i think. people say kicker sound horrible but i built a sweet tuned box for my l7s and i was actually shocked on how clean they sounded except for the fact that my roof on my bronco flexes so much u can hear it pop. |
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Silver Member Username: Suleman36Post Number: 956 Registered: Feb-05 | Hey James how many years is the warranty on that Avalanche 15 we own??? And let them know sealed is plenty loud.. I had my 2 12w6v2's sealed prowedge box and it sounded real nice. Just wanted to go with somthing fresh and new. Let me know what the differance in sound and spl was james..since you had the 12w6v2's like me. |
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Bronze Member Username: CenusHicksville, Ohio Usa Post Number: 64 Registered: Jan-05 | ok the L7 is out, but which would be better 1 15inch avalanch or 1 15inch eclipse ti which would have more spl and some sq |
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Silver Member Username: AlpineuserPost Number: 236 Registered: Mar-05 | plz dont ask that question lol i dont wanna get in an argument about this again with you know who :P they will be close but the ti will probably edge it out (boy im gonna get reamed for that one) |
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Gold Member Username: SubfanaticWalton, Ky Post Number: 3047 Registered: Dec-04 | 15 ti in my opinion, but apparently it would be to close to tell lol |
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Bronze Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 57 Registered: Apr-05 | One way to tell what a speaker can do is to take a look at the specs. What sensitivity(dB) does it have? The higher, the better. What power handling is it rated at in continuous mode,(not RMS or music, or transient, or max)? The higher the wattage rating, the more you may put into it. Sometimes this may sum up to getting more SPL. What is the Qts of the driver? This spec will tell what capacity the driver has. A driver with a Qts below 35 will need to be in a vented box to achieve optimum SPL. A driver with a Qts above 40 will be efficient even in a closed box. Speaker compliance Cms describes the stiffeness of the suspension. A stiff suspension will hit harder, while a loose suspension will reach lower. Last but not least... How can you tell if a driver will hit or not?????????? BL ot Tm or force factor. This describes how the speaker will perform. The higher the Bl/Tm/Force Factor the more this driver will pound. |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 2596 Registered: Dec-04 | "What sensitivity(dB) does it have? The higher, the better." For SPL maybe not for SQ! A high DB rating of 1 watt per meter means nothing except that the driver cant handle very much power. They would be similiar all depends on the type of enclosure they are in. Hey Mo the difference between the avalanche 15 and the w6v2 will seriously shock you, you dont know what you are in for buddy. I have mine in a sealed box with 600 watts and it is VERY loud. I am getting my new amp and everything installed a week from today, and I am getting it metered so I cant wait. The installer doing all my work listened to my sub before I took out the a600 and he said it should be mid 140's easily just going by what it sounded like with the PPI amp. so I cant wait. |
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Bronze Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 58 Registered: Apr-05 | James, I don't mean to insult your inteligence, but the sensitivity level is true at 1 watt as it is at 100 watts and so on. It does not depreciate as it goes up in wattage, or does it vary by driver. It is simply a "percentage" or value per given wattage. Therefore a speaker rated at 90 dB that can handle 100 watts will be less as loud as a speaker rated at 95 dB that can handle 100 watts. This is true symetrically. The reason specs are rated at 1 watt/1 meter or 2.83 volts is just to have an idustry standard. This does not mean that the driver specified can not handle more than 1 watt. It just plainly was tested at that level. If you are going to give advice; remember that you are responsible for the aftermath. "The higher (dB), the better" = LOUDER, since that was the question. |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 2612 Registered: Dec-04 | yes maybe infinite baffle, that means nothing when put into different types of enclosures in different types of vehicles. So yes when testing infinite baffle DB rating of a sub at 1watt or 2000 watts it is going to go up at a constant 3db's as you double the power but once put into different types of enclosures and different vehicles it means NOTHING. Lets ask Jonathan his take on this issue and see what he has to say I am curious what his answer will be. |
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Bronze Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 60 Registered: Apr-05 | My advice was for the question stated above. It was not weather driver A will be louder than driver B in different enclosures. My advice was for comparing apples to apples. |
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Bronze Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 61 Registered: Apr-05 | As you may note... I began my post with "One way". There may be other ways out there. Don't get critical dude. Lets just forgive and forget. Peace. |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 2613 Registered: Dec-04 | all good dude! |
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Bronze Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 62 Registered: Apr-05 | By the way I have been building boxes since 1987. I don't go to Johnathan for advice. I use physics formulas as referrence. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/soucon.html Johnathan, "No Pun Intended". I am not attaking your credibility. Peace. |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 2615 Registered: Dec-04 | Thats great man that you have been building boxes for that long I bet you are pretty good at it but when it comes down to REAL in car sound of a particular woofer against another the input sensitivity means SQUAT! I figured someone of your stature would know that since you haev been building boxes since the 80's. |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 2616 Registered: Dec-04 | "Don't get critical dude. Lets just forgive and forget. " Dude I thought this arguement was over you just wanna get the last word in or something? |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 2126 Registered: Aug-04 | Ha. Mixin, you do realize that companies can use different methods of testing to achieve higher sensitivity ratings... don't you? Yes these ratings can come into play when your comparing smaller speakers, but with subs their pretty much useless. If you actually do take that into account when comparing subs, then did you realie that there are some Audiobahn subs rated at over 90, while some top end subs may be mid 80's? This is just a sensitivity rating, don't confuse it with efficiency. |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 2127 Registered: Aug-04 | "You have to be careful when looking at reference efficiency (sensitivity). You can make a speaker really efficient by designing the voice coil to fit entirely in the magnetic gap. This would likely yield a sensitivity of 104 or so. This speaker may work very well if powered by a low powered amplifier because of the high efficiency but would not be able to produce high SPL at low frequencies because it would have a very small xmax. Actually, if the voice coil length was the same as the height of the magnetic gap, it would have no (zero) xmax. You can also design speakers for very high power handling and high SPL but those speakers would likely have a very low reference efficiency. Speakers designed for high SPL in cars generally have a larger xmax and therefore lower reference efficiency but would easily out perform the speaker (in the previous example) with the higher reference efficiency at low frequencies. Speakers that are designed to operate in very small enclosures are usually less efficient than speakers designed for larger enclosures. To make the speaker perform in a small enclosure, the suspension has to be stiff. This will raise the resonant frequency. To get a lower resonant frequency, they must add mass to the cone of the speaker. This added mass and the stiff suspension kill the efficiency." |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 2622 Registered: Dec-04 | well put NICK! |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 2131 Registered: Aug-04 | Thanks James, I love you too. Just thought I'd lay that arguement to rest. |
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Bronze Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 63 Registered: Apr-05 | Ummm, Yes Joe, as a matter of fact I am very aware of the fact that specs are often untrue. As a matter of fact I have posted previously in other threads the fact that engineers are lazy and do not do enough physical lab testing, and that they just round off or just "ball park" their figures. My point is this. I am disapointed that someone will bad-mouth my legit advice proven with scientific formulas, by making an off subject, and untrue arguement/statement. I have said time and time again. When giving advice, use proof to back it up. Scientific proof, not just "oh I have a sub that hits harder in my SUV than when it is installed in my sedan". I am going to repeat the original inquiry: An avalanch or L7 which one would be louder if they are the same size, in the same box, and had enough power or is there anything louder than both these subs for under $350 Can anyone else see that the question refers to comparing just the raw drivers. Actually the question is unfair due to the fact that DUSTIN PETTIT asked that the driver be in the "SAME SIZE BOX". I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he meant OPTIMUM boxes for each driver. Taking that in consideration; James's comment that said: "What sensitivity(dB) does it have? The higher, the better." For SPL maybe not for SQ! A high DB rating of 1 watt per meter means nothing except that the driver cant handle very much power. They would be similiar all depends on the type of enclosure they are in. Ha Ha Ha James please read the previously posted questions and comments carefully before you go bad-mouthing professional advice. By the way I have access to an an-echoic chamber and test equipmet to test any driver, and/or any enclosure individually. I have tested speakers before and have experienced that each driver will measure differently than the specs provided on the package. My advice was simply "How to make a sound decision between two products using small and large parameters" when it comes to loudness. |
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Bronze Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 64 Registered: Apr-05 | This is completely asinine. Ha Ha Ha Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 10:52 pm: ________________________________________ "You have to be careful when looking at reference efficiency (sensitivity). You can make a speaker really efficient by designing the voice coil to fit entirely in the magnetic gap. This would likely yield a sensitivity of 104 or so. This speaker may work very well if powered by a low powered amplifier because of the high efficiency but would not be able to produce high SPL at low frequencies because it would have a very small xmax. Actually, if the voice coil length was the same as the height of the magnetic gap, it would have no (zero) xmax. You can also design speakers for very high power handling and high SPL but those speakers would likely have a very low reference efficiency. Speakers designed for high SPL in cars generally have a larger xmax and therefore lower reference efficiency but would easily out perform the speaker (in the previous example) with the higher reference efficiency at low frequencies. Speakers that are designed to operate in very small enclosures are usually less efficient than speakers designed for larger enclosures. To make the speaker perform in a small enclosure, the suspension has to be stiff. This will raise the resonant frequency. To get a lower resonant frequency, they must add mass to the cone of the speaker. This added mass and the stiff suspension kill the efficiency." You can make a speaker really efficient by designing the voice coil to fit entirely in the magnetic gap. Wrong: • That design is called UNDER-HUNG VOICE COIL. This design fully saturates the voice coil in the magnet as it slides in and out. This design will always have the voice coil saturated at its deepest point as well as its outward most point called linear excursion. This will not necessarily decide the efficiency and/or sensitivity of a speaker in itself entirely. This speaker may work very well if powered by a low powered amplifier because of the high efficiency but would not be able to produce high SPL at low frequencies because it would have a very small xmax. Wrong: • Xmax is the measurement of the driver's excursion either going inwards or outwards from idle position. It has nothing to do with the voice coil being under-hung. There are long-throw drivers out there that have been in existence long before the under-hung voice coil came into existence. Speakers that are designed to operate in very small enclosures are usually less efficient than speakers designed for larger enclosures. Wrong: • This is a major understatement. Yes, most speakers fall in this category, but not all. There are speakers out there that will pound higher SPL in a smaller box than others out there in a much larger box because the BL/Tm/Force Factor is greater, the Qts is really high and the Vas is really low, it has a powerful magnet, under-hung voice coil, etc... |
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Silver Member Username: AlpineuserPost Number: 239 Registered: Mar-05 | im getting a chubby just from reading all this stuff. speaking of "under hung" you guys havent been talking to my girl have you? |
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Silver Member Username: Rob315Cuse, NY U.S. Post Number: 461 Registered: Jan-05 | mixneffect just owned you 2...... |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 2137 Registered: Aug-04 | Actually he didn't, that second post in quotes was taken off of www.bcae1.com. None of that information is wrong. Man I wish John or Glass would read this thread. |
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Bronze Member Username: CenusHicksville, Ohio Usa Post Number: 69 Registered: Jan-05 | wow what a conversation we got going and this all started because i wanted to know what would be louder |
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Silver Member Username: Rob315Cuse, NY U.S. Post Number: 462 Registered: Jan-05 | those quotes werent said as his words...he was backing up what he was saying with "scientific proof"...just like he said he could. |