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Starting almost completely from scratch...sry

 

Unregistered guest
Okay, forget everything before, it was getting to be a little overbearing and i couldn't even find a good box w/o paying out the wazoo for a custom made one. Here is what I have right now. A RF Power T15004 amp, RF Punch FRC4369 speakers for rear 6x9's (75W RMS) and in the door RF Power T152C 5 1/4's (60W RMS).
Now what I want is the best upgrade for $1200 not includeing install and H.O. Alternator. I do want at least one subwoofer 2 would be nice but not neccesary. I listen to everything mainly Smooth Jazz to Hard Rock, throw in a little Rap and Classical. SQ is #1 but the louder the better for sure. No point in haveing the loudest system if it sounds like crap. To Jonathan, I'm extremely sorry for changing all this but I just think I was going about it the right way before. I hope you as well as others will understand.
 

Unregistered guest
Ohh and anything goes to improve the sound system including upgrading my already upgraded door and rear speakers. After all I know that the 15004 could completely blow so easily since it can do 375W @ 1 Ohm. I was kinda thinking Kappa's but I'll just let you people decide how my $1200 can best be spent.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2207
Registered: May-04
Being a 125x4 amp you have, what I'd recommend is putting the front channels on better components up front and bridging the rear for a sub. I'd recommend 6.5" components for fronts if you can, but if you're stuck with 5 1/4" the manufacturer will have them in that size. SQ is entirely subjective for subs and component speakers, so I encourage you to listen to as much as possible before buying. For components, I'd recommend you look at Dynaudio, Focal, CDT, and MB Quart. Depends totally on your preference, if you prefer softer, smoother sets, I suggest you turn to Dynaudio and CDT. The others give a little brighter treble if that's your preference. I'd look into a single subwoofer with a good SQ/SPL balance, I prefer 12s for one sub that will balance out well between tightness and bandwidth. Options are ID Max, Adire Brahma, Resonant Engineering X.X.X., Eclipse Titaniums, etc. I love the ID Max for SQ purposes, it blends so well with Jazz, Classical, etc. Very smooth and tight, hits hard as hell when you want it to as well. Brahmas and X.X.X.'s are great as well, but midbass transition isn't quite as good IMO. It also depends on if you want to get all you can out of the amp with a 2 ohm bridge for 750W RMS, or stick with 500W RMS into a 4 ohm bridge. For optimum SQ, I'd recommend you stay w/ a 4 ohm bridge, but you may not even notice a difference in SQ between a 4 and 2 ohm bridge. Either way, the subs above will work well with that power. Lots to choose from, this is not a inclusive list, so go out and listen to your options. As far as that box, you're better off w/ a custom box anyway, any shop will build one that's optimum for your sub, it really shouldn't be terribly expensive, cheaper than a subzero, etc. usually. One thing I recommend, ALWAYS dedicate time (or $$$) to a great install. Install makes 90% of sound in a vehicle, that's not an exaggeration. The best components in the world can still sound so-so in a bad install. For example, in a weekend and low cost, kick panels can be fabricated, and can offer a HUGE improvement in sound quality over door locations if done properly. If done correctly, you can get a laser sharp center image, you might even swear the singer is in the vehicle with you. Same with sub, find the ideal placing in the vehicle and build the box (or have it built) to accomodate that space. Sound deadening is very important as well. Biggest thing to remember is that it doesn't have to be done all at once, it's usually better not to, you can get the best components that way, and plenty of time to weigh out your options before your next upgrade. Hope this helps :-)
 

Unregistered guest
So bridging the rear would power the Braham 12" properly with 750 @ 1 ohm? For a 1600 RMS sub??? And if I ran the amp to the front speakers I wouldn't need to change my 6x9's to mid ranges? Figure a Dynaudio 5 1/4 component system would run $450 on ebay and the sub $480 that would leave the remaining $220 for a box? (And another $150 or so for a dynamat trunk kit, but I can go a little over as the $1200 is just the number i was hoping for)
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2209
Registered: May-04
A bridged 2 ohm load puts out 750, you can't bridge that amp into a 1 ohm load(DON'T try it). A Brahma can't be used on that amp unless you wire in series for a 4 ohm bridge, resulting in 500 watts RMS. I'd really recommend 750-900 w/ a Brahma for most potential, personally I think you should run a more efficient sub if you plan to run a 4 ohm bridge, w/ a 2 ohm bridge you could match power a little better. An ID Max would run very well w/ 500 or 750 RMS.
 

Unregistered guest
So would this be alright? Not sure if link worked, may have to copy/paste. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18803%26item%3D5724562600 %26%26
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2215
Registered: May-04
Yep, that'll work very good. As I said above, I recommend you listen to as many of the subs as possible to see what you like. I'm sure you won't be disappointed with the ID Max, but you never know you might like something else better.
 

Unregistered guest
Unfortunately I can't find anywhere locally to listen to the higher end subs other the the W6 and W7's. I've looked up all the component systems you mentioned and Dynaudio is by far more expensive then the other three the second most being $120 cheaper. Since you made CDT you're other reccomendation I was hoping you could tell me if this is the model you were refering to. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26item%3D5725242540&fromMakeTrack= true It's used and I just e-mail the owner to specify how long they've been in use and what shape they are in.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2225
Registered: May-04
Couldn't pull up the link, I was referring to the HDs and Eurosports, the Eurosports are about the same price as Dynaudios. Classics, etc. IMO don't come close to the Dynaudios, HDs and Eurosports are nice though(Eurosports being the closest comparison, not as neutral and laid back, though)
 

Unregistered guest
They were the HD-52 model.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2226
Registered: May-04
Great components, it all boils down to personal preference. HDs are softer than the Eurosports, although tonal accuracy, IMO, isn't quite up to par w/ the Dyns. Just my preference though. Both are very nice. For the box, I strongly recommend you get one custom built or build your own. That's a great sub and you wouldn't do yourself any favors getting a cheap prefab. Build the box to specs.
 

Unregistered guest
I'll just have a local shop do it. The chances of me doing it right are about the same as the chances of Elmer Fudd actually catching and killing that screwy rabbit. How do you recommend to wire the HD-12 component system in with the amp?
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 471
Registered: Sep-04
lol, I like this Dave guy.

:-)

-Fishy
 

Unregistered guest
Since I'm now only using the one amp will I still need to upgrade my alternator? Unfortunately I think I know the answer to that question, after all that amp's gonna suck a lOT of power, but I can always hope the answer will b to my liking.
 

Unregistered guest
Okay, bought the IDMax, still waiting on CDT HD bid but if it falls out I can't get the Dynaudio set since it's actually 5.75" and not 5.25" like I need. There's a possibility i might be able to squeeze it in but I'm not gonna bet $450 on that possibility. (I can wire that IDMax at 2 ohm for 750 RMS right?) So with the other 3 brands can you give me your opinion on 1st, 2nd 3rd in case my current bid on one falls through? BTW, thanks Fishy.
 

Unregistered guest
One more thing. Where's the cheapest place to buy a Dynamat trunk kit? The cheapest I found was $65 shipped.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2288
Registered: May-04
Those Dynaudio drivers are pretty large, and difficult to install. I'd say CDT Eurosports #1, HD's #2. If you want a little brighter sound, Focal #1 and MB Quart #2. Not sure about Dynamat pricing online, but there are plenty of alternatives that are just as good, we had a thread about that not too long ago. You'll more than likely need an alternator upgrade, yes.
 

Unregistered guest
alright. thanks. What Focal model are you talking about? I know the MB Quart would be the PCE213 but am unsure about the Focal model #. BTW I'm not going to but if I WERE to get the Dynaudio and have to modify to get it I'd just go ahead and modify enough to get those sweet 8"er's in there. Now THAT would rock!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2289
Registered: May-04
hehe. If you could fit the 3 ways, they do kick a$$. But anyway, I was talking about the Utopias, 6.5" are the 165W, 5 1/4" are the 136Ws. 3 ways are the 165W3s.
 

Unregistered guest
Alright. Now what size capacitors should I use? I've been told ! Farad for every 1000W. So that would leave me with 1.5 Farad for this 1500W amp. But then somone else had to say that with tihs amp I should get a bigger cap like 3 Farad or so. So now I'm thinking somewhere down the middle but still on the safer side like 2.5 or so? I swear, it seems like they're pulling me by each arm in opposite directions and they're pretty darn close to pulling them out of their sockets (In other words, if i can't figure this out someone's gonna die!) Thanks for all the help ya buncha know-it-alls
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2291
Registered: May-04
1.5 would work, 2 farad at most. Really, your alternator should be doing most of the work, the cap is designed for fast supply of current during momentary peak transients. 1 farad for 1000W RMS is the general rule.
 

DumdumDave
Unregistered guest
Update on project, bought 1.5 cap and 100Sq Ft. of fatmat 9After trunk where should I prioitze it (I.E. Doors, floors, rear deck, floor)? don't notice anything in particularly loud other than wind noise. And I found a shop that could make me my custom box with the rec. dimensions for about $60. But they suggested I just get a Q-Logic (this one would be 3/4 MDF) even though it's .05 cu. ft. less then ID reccomended (box size 1.25 rec. size between 1.3 and 1.52) Thay said that for SQ it'd be better anyway and I really wouldn't notice a difference. Would you agree or suggest to get it custom made and to where within IDs range of 1.3 to 1.52 should I get it made, if you think i should go that route? So there's another two more easy pitches i've given you to bat over the fence. Custom made owuld actually be $60 while Q-Logic would be $75, and don't know how well quality box they would make. This thing is finally starting to come together and I hope, with your help of course, that some time before the end of the month I should have everything installed at this rate, hopefully... Jonathan seems to be the only one that'll put up with me, lol.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2343
Registered: May-04
Doors after trunk. Usually show most benefit up front. Make sure to cover all holes and try to seperate the rear wave of the speaker in the door from the front wave as much as you can. Then, rear deck and front floor close to firewall. Whatever you have left, try to get the floor areas and areas that seem to resonate (using your ears as a guide) also rattling body panels (if any). Depends a lot on the car, too, doors and trunk are the big ones. If it's a reputable shop, I'd recommend you get them to build you a box, usually they'll build it better, but usually it costs more than 60 bucks too, try to talk to someone they've made a box for and see what it looks like, make sure they used 3/4" MDF, caulked all edges, used a good terminal cup, etc. If they can build you a quality box for that, jump on it. Personally, I usually make enclosures pretty large, I prefer a larger box with greater bandwidth over one that is smaller. Gives the best bandwidth and SQ usually. As far as wind noise, you need to consider replacing weatherstripping, that's usually the source of wind noise. New weatherstripping can make a HUGE improvement.
 

Silver Member
Username: Zacdavis~

Post Number: 164
Registered: Sep-04
what the heck u doin up so late?:-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2344
Registered: May-04
Oh yeah, after sound deadening your door, your inner door will rattle less, so when you close the door, you get that solid, nice quality "thunk" sound instead of rattles :-).
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2345
Registered: May-04
I rotate shifts at work every couple months, right now I'm on a 4pm to 12am shift. Takes me a while to wind down right after work, plus I'm more of a night person anyway.
 

Unregistered guest
Okay, I looked at the shop that said they could do it for $60 but their boxes were kinda shabby in my opinion and the ternimal cup was crappy, and by crappy I mean outhouses are less crappy than the cup they showed me. But I was able to find another place where their guy has a ton of experience. They showed me a couple of his bozes and they were looked great, well sealed and everything. So i'll get one there for $89. As for components my bid fell thru so i'm going to wait until I have the fatmat installed and have them check to see if the dynaudio 5 3/4" would fit. The reason I posted is because I was wondering what would be the benefits of wiring the sub in at a 500W 4 ohm load over a 750W 2 ohm load and the benfits of vice versa. I would automatically think the more power the better but maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time and, unless i die in my sleep tonight, it won't be the last.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2407
Registered: May-04
An amp has more headroom at 4 ohms, meaning better SQ, less distortion, higher damping, yadayadayada, and amp at 2 ohms will draw more current and give more power, but at the expense of a little degraded SQ(but you may not even notice the difference).
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

NorthWest, Michigan USA

Post Number: 4949
Registered: Dec-03
by headroom, think of it this way.

the amp, due to it's construction internally, can only produce so much power. we'll call that amount "X."
Now, the closer you get to X, the less "reserve" power you have to handle transient spikes in demand like sharp bass notes, complex passages, etc.
Running a 2 ohm stable amp at 4 ohms will give you a lot more "reserve" power to handle those brief demands without clipping than it could running at 2 ohms.
Also keep in mind that a "4 ohm" speaker is a nominal impedance, meaning essentially, the AC resistance at rest or as an average.
The real impedance varies constantly based on certain functions of the amplifier, as well as the signal frequency being reproduced.
This in part relates to damping factor, but for the moment let's simplify things and say this fluctuation, due to Ohm's Law, can mean that the amp may see 4 ohms one second, and 0.33 ohms an instant later.. which means the amp suddenly has to produce about 16 times the power it was just providing, on demand.
a speaker may be 4 ohms at say, 80Hz, but when you hit it's Fs, which may be 28Hz, the impedance will drop sharply, to perhaps half an Ohm.
This is also affected by the box you use, too.. :-)
many things to take into account, and this is why audiophiles after peak SQ will run higher loads and sacrifice power to do it for gaining quality of sound reproduction.
Also why they use class A or AB amps and not class D.

just some food for thought there.
 

Unregistered guest
...OK, slight problem, I can't run 2 ohm on a single D2 sub can I or is it different since it's being bridged and not a mono amp? Anyway, for any1 concerned i'm haveing the complete install, (Fatmat, sub and amp [no components yet]) done on Wednesday. Any idea on how many Db's i'll be able to get out of it? And no worries, I know enough from reading other posts not to go crank it up immediately and give it plenty of time to 'break in' before really pushing them. I'll have the guys doin' the install tell me whether they think I'll be able to fit the dynaudio's in at 5.75" without any cosmetic changes to the interior and take that part of this on going audio saga after then. Almost there guys. If not for Jonathan I can almost definitely say I would've just given up and thought it not worth the hassle, but thanks to him I'll come out of this with a great learning experience and an even better sound system. Alright, that's enough butt kissing for one post. Got to go to bed so I can change the oiil and the alternator 2morrow/today however u look at it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2461
Registered: May-04
hehe. You can't wire a d2 sub for a 2 ohm load, you're going to want to run a 4 ohm bridge with that one, and the power supply "sees" a 2 ohm stereo load. 500W RMS is plenty for an ID max, the sub is very efficient and at 500W RMS it'll blend very well with your front components. By the way, the Dynaudios take some time to break in, more than most speakers because of the tighter gaps and suspension, many people have done 60-80 hours of breaking in, some even more than that. Good luck w/ the install, alternator, etc. I'm sure you'll come to LOVE this system once everything is broken in and install is finished.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2462
Registered: May-04
As far as SPL, depends a lot on the vehicle, enclosure, etc., but I'd guess 130s.
 

Unregistered guest
Okay, say in the future when I have more money, what would be the best thing to upgrade? Get a 2nd sub along with an amp to puch it or get better 6x9's in the back? Speaking of which, should I unhook the 6x9's once the sub (or wait until the components are installed as well) is installed or just leave them be? If i should upgrade the 6x9's what would be best for under $600? Not sure how much or when i'll be able to dedicate more money to my car stereo since I'll be off to a flight academy in Florida in about 18 months and until then i'm training at a local flight school here.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2495
Registered: May-04
Don't waste money on 6x9s. If you want another, spend your money on another sub if anything. You could add another sub and an amp to power the pair. I think you'd be happy with the ID max, though, and if you port it you'll get a good amount of output.
 

New member
Username: Dumbfoundedave

Akron, Ohio USA

Post Number: 2
Registered: Oct-04
Got it installed on Wednesday and just recently turned it all the way up for just a few minutes. I was thinking about getting another amp so i can push this thing to 1000W RMS but after hearing it with 500W i think it'll do just fine (SQ wise ain't NO WAY I need more than what i got) My speakers though are now making a noise, you know the sparklers some kids have for July 4th, that's the kind of sound I get when I turn it up the final 3 nothches (out of 35). It's still a lot better than what I got before the amp (before just about anything over 28 of 35 turned to absolute and total crap with 35 you were lucky to make out what song was playing). My question is, is it possible that I'm pushing my speakers just a little too far and should ever so slightly cut back the gain (it's already set pretty low) or, I was thinking, just simlpy don't put the volume past 32? one way or another I need new front components and this should mostly negate any problem I'm having. but man does the woofer bump and still sound great even pushing it all the way with what I've got. Top Props Jonathan!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2544
Registered: May-04
What kind of components did you end up with, or have you gotten any yet? If you got new components, I think you need to let the stuff break in for more time before cranking the volume up too high. Also, make sure the gain is set correctly. As far as the noise, check both the ground wire for the amp and the speaker wiring, make sure nothing is out of place. Also make sure your RCAs are away from the power wire.
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