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Sub wiring dilema!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Anonymous
 
I have 2 12" L5 dual 4 ohm vc subs. I got these from my son, who knows less then me about these.
I have a kicker amp that puts out as follows-- stereo or bridged mono output
Tri-way capable ( Tri-way crossover required)
125 watts RMS x 2 at 4 ohms
250 watts x 2 at 2 ohms
500 watts x 1 in bridged mode 4ohm load min and you get max Mono watts! well over 500 can be expected!
Right now I have the subs wired as such, + of one of the voice coils to the same -
and same on other sub, then the remaining +'s together and to the + side of amp, and the remaining -'s to together to the amps - bridged into a 4ohm. My question is they don't sound right, and I don't know if I am underpowered, or if I have the subs wired wrong, and if someone could possible tell me exactly how to get the most out of this setup?????
Please be specific, as I am really new to dvc speakers. Thanks in advance!!!
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 433
Registered: Sep-04
If it looks like this(and I think it does):

http://home.comcast.net/~guppyrig/wsb/media/322068/site1050.JPG

you've got it right.

How well a set of subs sound depends a lot on the enclosure they're playing in.

What kind of enclosure are you running(ported or sealed) and what are the internal dimensions or volume each sub is playing in(are they separated?)and if its ported what are the port dimensions?

-Fishy
 

Anonymous
 
Here are the specs on this enclosure----- Built with 3/4" MDF.


3.47 cu. ft. total


Port Volume: 0.195 cu. ft.


Slot port ventilation system (see above description)


Dimensions: 32'' W x 16.5" D x 14.25" H


Two high quality terminals


HIGH SPL BASS SYSTEM


Two 12" square Kicker style speaker holes - fine cut for L7 or L5 subs


Sealed with several different non-toxic, EPA approved sealers (glue, staples, and hard silicone -- NOT cheap window caulking like our competitors) to ensure that the box stays together and make sure air does not leak.


It is a vented box with the vent going straight down the middle! Do you think the amp is not strong enough? Or maybe I need to wire it different?? The one you showed is how they are wired! Thanks
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 434
Registered: Sep-04
Sounds like the box was designed for those subs if it came with square holes, lol.

Thats probably not your problem.

I didn't read your first post carefully enough. The problem is that I think you've shorted one voice coil on each sub. Instead of connecting the (+) of one coil to the (-) of the other as you would for a series setup, you've connected the (+) of one coil to the (-) of its self efectively creating a 4 ohm speaker instead of the desired 8.

Don't worry, I don't think you've hurt anything, but the way I think you have it hooked up has a couple possibly bad effects on your sound quality.

1) two 4 ohm speakers in parallel results in a 2 ohm load, something that amp wasn't designed to drive in bridged configuration.

2) Only using one voice coil alters the Qts of the speaker which means it may not sound exactly right in a box designed for a different Qts.

Look at my diagram again and make sure you connect the positive of one vc to the negative of the OTHER one, lol.

If your not sure which connection goes to which voice coil(they're usually next to each other for each coil) you can check for continuity with a multimeter.

Sorry I didn't take the time to read your post well enough. I think this is likely your problem tho, but double check your speaker manual to be sure.

good luck :-)

-Fishy
 

Anonymous
 
I do have them wired like that diagram you sent.
Anything else you can think of??
Thanks for your help!
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 439
Registered: Sep-04
I dunno. What exactly doesn't sound right about them?

Too much distortion?
Not enough volume?
Too much upper bass?
No low bass?

Maybe you just need to tune it to the rest of your system better(reset the gains or crossover on the amp), but I'm just guessing.

If you have a multimeter you could doublecheck your speaker wiring by measuring the resistance across the bridged connection to your speakers(system off of course and I'd disconnect them from the amp first).

If you've got a 4 ohm load you should measure a resistance between 3 and say 3.7 ohms.

Oh, your not using a factory head unit are you? The line out converters used to convert speaker level voltage to preout can add distortion and noise, and decrease frequency response.

I really can't think of much else.

-Fishy
 

Anonymous
 
Not enough vloume! I had subs years ago that sounded as well as these! And they were cheap, I think pyramid! Maybe my expectation of the kickers was to high!
They hit, but not loud! I will try that ohm test on them again, and post later this afternoon if you are around!
The hu is a alpine 7894 with 4 volt preouts! Not the best but should do the trick!
It almost seems like I don't have enough power, I have a cap in it also, and grounding is good!
Will let you know and thanks!!!!
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 441
Registered: Sep-04
Just in case you don't have the manual(I know, I'm floggin this point pretty hard).

http://www.kicker.com/images/manuals/02SoloBaricL5manual.pdf

Zoom in on the voice coil Series wiring diagram and make sure you've connected the dots right.

The way these subs are set up its easy to get confused(I was till I zoomed it).

-Fishy
 

Anonymous
 
Do you have to take the subs out of the box to do an ohm test? I just used the teminals of the box, and if that is ok, then on a 10 ohm scale, I buried the needle?? Thanks for the manual and all your time.
 

Silver Member
Username: Insearchofbass

Post Number: 849
Registered: Jun-04
you have your subwoofer wired correctly ending up in a 4 ohm bridged mode from they way i understand your post to read. The only other thing i can think of that could be wrong is your crossover setting check this and make sure that it is set to low pass and is adjusted to about 80 hz

heres a link to make sure how you explained your wiring is correct to my understanding

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftech/wiringwizard.asp
 

Silver Member
Username: Insearchofbass

Post Number: 851
Registered: Jun-04
let me know what you find out if this doesnt help we can try and go more in depth with this problem
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jaackdeth

Burnett, WI United States

Post Number: 18
Registered: Sep-04
Did you read the post about what I got with my ohm-meter on the subs? It went off the 10ohm scale. can you take a reading while they are in the box using the + - speaker terminals on the box? And in that diagram, how do you know if the + - for each voice coil is on top, on side by side? I can't believe I can't get this right. According to kicker manual, there is no way to get 4 ohms?? Thanks so much for understanding!
Do you think the amp might be to weak??
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jaackdeth

Burnett, WI United States

Post Number: 19
Registered: Sep-04
Did you read the post about what I got with my ohm-meter on the subs? It went off the 10ohm scale. can you take a reading while they are in the box using the + - speaker terminals on the box? And in that diagram, how do you know if the + - for each voice coil is on top, on side by side? I can't believe I can't get this right. According to kicker manual, there is no way to get 4 ohms?? Thanks so much for understanding!
Do you think the amp might be to weak??
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 443
Registered: Sep-04
Ok, my analog meter has a bunch of scales. The "10" scale is a multiplier deal and should be used to measure resistances between 10 and 100 ohm give or take. To measure single digit resistances you need to have it set on the "R1" or "Rx1" scale. Oh and make sure every time you switch scales you "zero out" the meter by touching the leads together and usin that lil dial to get the needle to zero.

If the meter isn't calibrated(zeroed) and/or you use too high of scale, "4 ohms" can appear as "zero" or a burried needle like you describe.

I hope I haven't added confusion to an already uncertain situation by recommending usin a multimeter.

:-)

-Fishy
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 444
Registered: Sep-04
Oh and measuring off the speaker terminals of the box is just fine. Thats the important measurement as that is the load the amp will see.

If you have a pair of subs that have dual voice coils of 4 ohms per coil then you should be able to wire them for a 4 ohm mono load like in that crappy drawing I made in my first post. Just look at the link to the manual and make sure you have the coils wired EXACTLY like is shown for voice coils in series, i.e. find the specific "dots"(black, red, black/white, red/white) on your subs which specify which coil is which.

-Fishy
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jaackdeth

Burnett, WI United States

Post Number: 20
Registered: Sep-04
Fishy,
Ok, now on that kicker site, if I wire dual 4ohm vc in series I would end up with 8 ohms?? According to that pic! And when you connect the voice coils together, you just use regular speaker wire right? And what's left over on the remaining +'s and -'s Get wired together so I have 1 wire for the +'s going to my amps +
and the same for the -'s ??
Is it ok to twist the wire together to run them to the amp? Thanks
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2205
Registered: May-04
You use speaker wire, yes. When you wire the coils in series, each sub will be 8 ohms. Then, you hook each sub's leads in parallel (both subs to the amp terminal) and bridge the amp, and it will result in a 4 ohm load. Here's a diagram:
http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/ISEO-rgbtcspd/learningcenter/car/subwoofers_wi ring.html?subs=2&impedance=DVC4x2
Do the 4 ohm load option.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 453
Registered: Sep-04
This may be a stupid question, but as you said that the subs weren't "loud" enough I'll ask anyways.

Have you tried adjusting the gain(s) on the amp?

-Fishy
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jaackdeth

Burnett, WI United States

Post Number: 21
Registered: Sep-04
Ok, I wired them and put back in car, and have the same thing. It is hitting, but not what I have heard before from these subs!! The gain is turned up almost all the way, that's why I can't figure this thing out! Am I maybe just underpowered with this amp??? Thanks for all who posted, it's appreciated!!!
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 460
Registered: Sep-04
Where is the box located?

If its in a sedan and you've got em in the trunk you may need to couple the airspace in the cabin to the trunk. If you've got speakers in the rear deck take them out temporarily and see if that makes a difference. Also, firing them towards the rear of the trunk usually gives you better reflection gain. Into the back seat doesn't usually work so hot.

-Fishy
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jaackdeth

Burnett, WI United States

Post Number: 22
Registered: Sep-04
Yes it's a sedan! I have them pointed toward the back seat. I took the rear deck speaker out of line, and can hear them better, but doesn't sound right, as the fronts are not enough for the mids or hi's!
I also tried to point them toward the back, and it's about a wash! In order to feel these subs, I have to crank up my sub contol on the HU, and almost max up the gain on the amp!
Don't get me wrong, they are hitting, but I am comparing them to 2 10" pyramid speaker I had several years ago, that were in a "band pass" box, and they believe it or not sounded better!!
It's like these don't hit hard enough!!!
What do you mean by "couple the airspace: ?
I am new to that as well!! Thanks so much!!!
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 464
Registered: Sep-04
If you've got an opening(s) in your rear deck it allows the air in the cabin to "hook up" better with the vibrating air in your trunk. Removing your rear speakers was just a test to see if it would help.

Was that bandpass installed in the same type of vehicle? You can get a substantial amount more cabin gain in a SUV or hatchback. Bandpass boxes can be tuned to hit a lot louder than ported boxes, but I'd think those Kickers should do as well if not much better all other things(vehicle) being equal.

If you've got a link to that enclosure you've got with its port dimensions(I need basically either the cross sectional area or length since you posted the port volume). I can plug it into winISD and compare it to some of Kicker's recommendations.

I didn't want to suggest a bigger amp, but you may very well need one if you want more output. Lets exhaust all other possibilities first tho. 500 watts really should equal some decent bass output.

-Fishy
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnnylemoine

LaPlace, Louisiana United States

Post Number: 152
Registered: Aug-04
Cant he just wire each subs voice coils in parallel, take one sub run vc in parallel then run it to one of the channels on the amp and do the same for the other sub to the channle, wont that give him a two ohm load?
Two ohm load should hit harder than a four ohm load.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jaackdeth

Burnett, WI United States

Post Number: 23
Registered: Sep-04
Hey,
I took the box out and rechecked all my wiring this afternoon, and redid everything, I had it right, as I get 4 0hms with a multi-tester at the amp!
That deck in the back of this caddy, (it's a 1990 deville) is part of the stop light in the middle, and there is like a waffer board with holes in it covering the 6x9's!!
Anyway did all that, and yes it does sound a little better, and I did turn the box around as well. If I turn up the HU volume so the other speakers are screaming, then they hit so so!!
But I didn't have the rears in though, so I suppose I would hear them better.
But the amp is about 3/4 gain to max. And my sub control on Hu is set to high, so I can't adjust anymore with smoking something!!!!
I had that bandpass box in this same car, as I restored it some, and it was at least equal to what I hear now! I hope that makes sense to you!
I adjusted the other amp for the components down, so it isn't screaming so loud, but I can't find a medium!!!
The link for the box I have now is --- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14945%26item%3D5725094728 %26%26

Hope that can help, I didn't buy this whole set-up, my son did, so I don't know all the numbers, but this link should give you an idea.
Thanks for hanging with me on this one fishy!!!

 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 468
Registered: Sep-04
Ok, I did a quick aproximation and ea sub is "seeing" about 1.5 ft^3 of airspace(gross internal volume minus port and speaker displaceent divided by 2). Kicker's recommended MINIMUM ported size is 1.75 ft^3. After looking at that and the price($50 is really cheap) I'm beginning to think the box may be part of the problem.

If you could give me some accurate port measurement(internal width, height, and length. wall thickness would help too) I could plug and chug some numbers in winISD.

My guess is its not playing "low". You could try converting the box into a sealed enclosure by temporarily clogging up the port with a rag(s) or something(1.5 ft^3 is a decent sealed enclosure size). You might lose a lil SPL but gain much more extended response(down low).

Oh, you could try upping the gains a bit as long as you're not noticing any severe clipping. Some aftermarklet head units have pretty weak pre outs. You're not using a factory h/u are you?

-Fishy
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2222
Registered: May-04
Try inverting the phase of the subwoofers and see if it helps. If they're out of phase with the fronts, cancellation can occur. Make sure the subs aren't out of phase with each other as well. Also, check your crossover settings. Also, with the Alpine head unit subwoofer out, with sub level, you HAVE to set the gain with the sub level up. I know it says +15, but really, it's designed for cutting the sub signal and +15 is designed to be the "flat" setting. Set the gain with the head unit sub level between 11 and 15 (whichever doesn't clip).
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 469
Registered: Sep-04
Yeah thanks Jonathan. I didn't think to check for phase.

A quick way to check if the subs are wired in phase is to gently push on one sub(system off). Moving the voice coil thru the motor's magnetic field will induce a bit of current which will move your other sub as well if they are wired in parallel. If they both move the same direction they're in phase. You can also use a small dc battery(I use a 1.5v) to check polarity. Briefly hooking the positive of the battery to the pos box terminal and negative to negative will cause the speaker cone(s) to move OUT if wired corectly. It'll move IN if you've got the polarity backwards.

-Fishy
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jaackdeth

Burnett, WI United States

Post Number: 24
Registered: Sep-04
Thanks Fishy and Jonathan! I will check that this afternoon, and get back to you! Appreciate the time and help!
 

ELECGENIUS
Unregistered guest
HEY JACK--- I HAD THE SAME PROBLEM B4 WITH SOME L7'S. I GOT A SELAED BOX AND SOUNDS MUCH BETTER. LATER ON I FLIPPED THE SUBS BACKWARDS ON A SEALED BOX AND FLIPPED THE POLARITY.... (+) TO (-).... AND GOT BETTER RESPONSE. ALSO IF U HAVE AN AMP OTHER THAN A CLASS D, U SHOULD TRY TO ADJUST THE AMP TO LPF AND KEEP THE GAIN AROUND 3\4. MORE WILL CAUSE DISTORTION. PLAY AROUND WITH THE FREQUENCY RESPONSE AND I HIGHLY RECOMMEND TO FLIP THE SUBS
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jaackdeth

Burnett, WI United States

Post Number: 25
Registered: Sep-04
Hey Fissy and Jonathen,
Ok did the sub test and both speakers moved out at the same time!! I did notice however that they sounded better today, since I've turned them around in the trunk facing the back. It almost sounds like there just isn't enough power, but I don't want to blow up anything either. ELL, I don't know what you mean my flipping the subs?? And the amp is a kicker kx500.2
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 487
Registered: Sep-04
Flipping the subs around backwards just means mounting them inverted. It gives you a bit more airspace for them to work with which in your case might actually help but you're gonna lose some cargo space. More airspace means both the subs and the port will play "lower". I personally think it looks dorky and don't like the exposed wiring.

If a new enclosure isn't in your plans I'd say your only option would be more power. Post those port dimensions and I'll take a look see on winISD.

-Fishy
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2227
Registered: May-04
You don't have enough power, You're underpowering the subs by 700W (350 each), and giving them less than half of the rated RMS, and those subs are pretty power hungry. Forgot that you probably didn't know the specs of the subs since you got them from your son. They're 600W RMS each and you're only giving each one 250W RMS.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jaackdeth

Burnett, WI United States

Post Number: 26
Registered: Sep-04
Ok, Thanks for all the post, I will check into a bigger amp, and what is a good amp to buy?
I don't know if I trust the new rockfords, and JL maybe not within limits right now.
Any good brands to think of??
Thanks again!!!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2232
Registered: May-04
Kicker 1200.1 or JBL 1200.1 would be perfect for them.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 497
Registered: Sep-04
Whew, I didn't wanna be the one to recommend spending more money just in case the problem was something else, but now its official.

NEED MO POWAH!

lol :-)

-Fishy
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jaackdeth

Burnett, WI United States

Post Number: 27
Registered: Sep-04
Ok! Thanks again for all your help, it is appreciated!!!! Catch you guys again!! :-)
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