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EXPERT HELP NEEDED!!!

 

New member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 6
Registered: Oct-04
From previous answered questions I have learned that I can wire the voice coils on my Alpine Type R 4 ohm speakers in parallel to end up with a 2 ohm load (thank you Jonathan). I am going to do this to each sub (I have two) and use a 2 channel amp to power them. I just have some more questions regarding some basic facts so here they are.

Sub stats: Alpine 4 ohm DVC Type R 300 Watt RMS/1000 Peak

1. I listen to Death Metal, Classic Rock, Thrash, and some techno. Is the sound quality between a 10 and 12" Type R real noticeable. What I am getting at here is will rock/metal sound like crap on a 12" Type R DVC sub?
2. Just to double check my work I made a small picture representing my view of how to wire 2 voice coils in parallel and back to the amp shown http://24.161.59.120/pubdl/wire2.jpg there. Please take a look at it and tell me if that is correct. If so to wire each coil together im guessing id need to solder the speaker cable from the first + terminal on the coil to the second coils + terminal.
3. I have read many many many many posts on Type R enclosures and what they need to sound the best and everyone seems to have a dif. opinion. Alpine recently changed the site around and I am unable to find the specs for what type of box and space is recommended for these subs, could you help me out here? What enclosure would sound the best given my taste of music? I was going to go with a sealed/ported box.

I appreciate everyone's help, thanks!
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 270
Registered: Sep-04
Just to doublecheck, which model do you have? The XX21d's or XX41d's. Your picture tends to have me believe you have the 21D models(10 or 12 in?) which have two 2 ohm voice coils. I sure hope you have the 41D's as two 21D's don't match up well with the typical 2 channel amp.

Also if you do have the 41D's(dual 4ohm voice coils) I'd reccomend bridging the amp instead of running it stereo. This will negate any slight imbalances betweeen the two sides of your amp. To do this you will need to hook the voice coils in SERIES first. This mean connecting one (+) end of one voice coil to the (-) of the other. The two remaining "free" ends will become your actual speaker terminals. After you've done this for both subs connect them in parallel either directly to the same bridged outputs on the amp or to each other and then from one to the amp.

Oh, and I wouldn't recommend soldering the voice coils although you can. Its just a lot easier to use some female quick disconnect crimp connectors. That way its easy to rewire the voice coils if needed.

I've no experience with paint but I'll see if I can draw you a pic and upload it.

-Fishy
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 271
Registered: Sep-04
Here's a crappy picture of of that crappy description I just provided.

http://home.comcast.net/~guppyrig/wsb/media/322068/site1050.JPG

hope it helps :-)

-Fishy
 

New member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 7
Registered: Oct-04
Ok so here is my new picture take a look. Keep in mind I NEED a 2 ohm load. I have the 4 ohm 12" Type Rs but I can still return them and get 2 ohm if I need to. If you could draw me a schematic that would be great, I dont have the money to have these pro installed so I need to figure this out, plus id like to learn. If the coils are wired in series wouldnt that give me 8 ohm ? Anyway here is the new picture: http://24.161.59.120/pubdl/wire2b.jpg

Also any comment on questions 1 and 3 above?

Thanks for helping me out.
 

New member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 8
Registered: Oct-04
oops haha just looked at your pic, anyway to get a 2
ohm load? What about the other channel on the amp? Would my original parallel wired coils and a stereo 2 ohm load be bad?
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 272
Registered: Sep-04
Ok, lets make sure we're on the same page.

1) you have a pair of 1241D Type R's(has dual 4 ohm voice coils)
2) you have a 2 channel amp stable to 2 ohm stereo(4 ohm bridged)

If those two statements are true then either of our wiring methods will work, but bridging the amp like I suggested may sound slightly better.

The reason stereo might not sound as good is because both channels of an amp are not exactly equal due to design tolerances. One side is going to be just a bit more powerful than the other and possibly drive one speaker at a slightly greater amplitude than the other. Cone velocity(at X0) is directly proportional to amplitude and two separate drivers moving at different velocities at the same frequency can lead to "muddied" sound(don't ask me why. just what I've been told. actually i was told just "bad". "muddied" is my interpretation.). This can be especially problematic if you've got separate gains for your right and left channels. Its really difficult to set these gains so both channels "match up".

Now that you've read all that technical mumbo jumbo suffice to say that if you have a quality amp with one gain controlling both channels then hooking it up like you described is probably just fine, but if you have separate gains I'd definitely bridge that sucker. Check your manual for the correct bridging connections. If you don't have the manual just give us the brand/model and I betcha we can google something up for you.

-Fishy

[note] those "2 ohm" labels in your pic scare me. make it look like you have dual 2 ohm voice coil subs which wouldn't work. :-)
 

New member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 9
Registered: Oct-04
Yes my subs are Type R 12" 4 ohm DVC. My main concern is getting that 2 ohm load, I want my extra 60 watts :-(!! I don't want it to sound like crap either though... The reason my diagrams have a 2 ohm label is because I did a quick copy/paste of a speaker diagram for the picture :-) heh...

My amp's stats:

* Full Mosfet PWM Power Supply
* Full Selectable Crossover Hi/Full/Low
* Three Way Protection
* 2 Ohm Stable Stereo
* Tri-Mode Capable
* System Distress Indicator
* 4 Guage Power/Ground Connection
* Diamond Cut Heat Sink
* Gold Plated RCA Connectors
* Line Output
* Top Control Panel
* Variable Low Pass 30Hz-500Hz
* Variable Hi Pass 50Hz-500Hz
* Variable 24 dB Bass Boost
* Variable Subsonic Filter 60Hz-200Hz
* Frequency Response: 10Hz to 30KHz
* 300W x 2 @ 4 Ohms
* 360W x 2 @ 2 Ohms
* 720W Mono RMS
* 1440W Bridged Max
* S/N Ratio: 98 dB
* THD: 0.02%
* Dimensions (W x H x D): 20.5" x 2.25" x 11"
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 276
Registered: Sep-04
Ok that will work then. 4 ohm bridged feels like 2 ohm stereo to that amp. You'll be producing 360 watts to each speaker either way you go.

What kind of amp is that? Most of the high end stuff nearly doubles its power when the load is halved. 120 watts may seem like a big gain but its not really. Every time you double the power you gain 3dB(theoretically), but going from 600 to 720 watts is only a 0.8 dB increase which is not really that big of a difference to the human ear.

That amp may actually sound better run at 4 ohms stereo(8 ohm bridged) while producing "only" 600 watts since it will add less distortion and have twice the damping factor at that load. The slight increase in power at 2 ohms kinda makes me think it will be workin pretty hard with that setup.

Might be nice to hear what Jonathan has to say. I dunno. It'll probably be a bit louder at 2 ohms but may not sound as sweet especially since those subs may reach full excursion at some point below 300 watts. Thats really just a thermal rating which tells ya how much power you can put in for an extended period of time w/o melting the voice coils.

-Fishy
 

New member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 10
Registered: Oct-04
Alright then screw the extra 60 watts lol. So for a 4 ohm load to run these DVC speakers back to your first design, id wire them like this: http://24.161.59.120/pubdl/wire3.jpg ? This puts the load at 4 ohms and each coil will be getting 150 watts correct? Also what enclosure shall I use for these babies?

Thanks alot man I owe you one for sticking through this and answering my Qs.
 

Silver Member
Username: Decde

Canada

Post Number: 109
Registered: Sep-04
Btw Damien, if u listen to Deathmetal, try listening to some Deicide with your subs, it pounds the living sh1t out off them lol
Their songs are made so that the subwoofer is connected to the drums double kicker, so it will hit hard.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 283
Registered: Sep-04
Actually if you already have the amp your pretty much stuck with that extra 60 watts because of the load your presenting. Its either 60 watts more or 150 less with those speakers.

Thats a beautiful schematic. Much better than mine. Thats the way to go, but your gonna get 360 watts per speaker regardless. :P It'll probably be just fine. Just don't go crazy with the gains or the bass boost. Use your ears. If it starts sounding nasty don't turn it up any more.

:-)

-Fishy
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 284
Registered: Sep-04
Man that drawing is buggin me. I'm gonna haveta brush up on my Autocad, Spice or somethin.

-Fishy :P
 

Bronze Member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 11
Registered: Oct-04
Ive read the Type Rs are very under rated and can actually support up to 500 RMS safely. Is this true?
What about the type of box, would bandpass work good
with these subs you think? Mmmmmm.... Deicide
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 286
Registered: Sep-04
I'm really not up on many of the most recent brands. I've been out of the car audio scene for a good many years(the sub amp in my Explorer was purchased new 15 years ago :P).

I'm not a big fan of bandpass boxes. I'm mostly into SQ and band pass boxes can sound pretty ugly if not designed and built exactly. If you're mainly lookin for SPL thats a good way to go although they generally require a good deal of space.

Personally I'd go ported. If done right you get both good SQ and SPL.

-Fishy
 

Bronze Member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 12
Registered: Oct-04
f00k, My friend gave me this type of bandpass box: http://24.161.59.120/pubdl/enclosure.jpg and I can get another for 30 bucks cause of where he works. What if I took the acrylic off? If I have to buy a new box I will be waiting to put these Type Rs in :-(.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 288
Registered: Sep-04
Bandpass boxes are usually designed with a specific driver in mind. There's a good chance your type R's will wreak in that enclosure, but if you can get me the specs on that box(both chamber volumes and port size(s) and length(s)) I can plug it into winISD with your speaks and see what it looks like.

It probably won't be pretty unless that thing is designed to produce a fairly wide bandwidth(low Q).

-Fishy
 

Bronze Member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 13
Registered: Oct-04
I will probably just have to find some extra cash and just put them in a dual 12" sealed box. Thanks alot for all your help again, I will tell you how it all goes.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 14
Registered: Oct-04
Oh and I forgot, one more Q. In my car (95 Toyota Camry, 420,000 miles and still ticking replaced the radiator and nothing else its entire life) I have four 3-way 6x9s. For some reason the rear 6x9s sound louder and more powerful then the fronts; it is quite noticeable actually. When I was installing the speakers I noticed something quite odd as well. The factory front speaker wire is a lower gauge then the rear speaker wire; could this be why it sounds like this? I plan on re-wiring it all anyway in the near future with a 4 channel amp, just wondering for now. I'm using a Pioneer DEH-P6600 HU and Alpine 250 Watt/50 RMS 3-ways.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2031
Registered: May-04
I'm guessing you stuck 6x9s in the front spot? The reason the rears are louder are not only b/c of the vehicle gain, but because the 6x9s in the back are mounted infinite baffle and you also hear a little of the rear wave put out by the speaker. That's the reason they're more powerful as well, b/c they have more airspace. I've still got my 93 Camry, but once it had 225,000 I was ready to take the baseball bat to it :-).
 

Bronze Member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 15
Registered: Oct-04
So would the amp correct this differance? What would I need to do? I cut part of the panel out with a dremel they use to be 6-1/2" holes.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2032
Registered: May-04
Honestly, that wasn't the best thing to do. 6x9s suck for SQ. You need to try to seal up the door as good as possible, but the rear will likely be louder still. Only thing you can do to correct it is to fade the rear out.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 16
Registered: Oct-04
I can still put the 6 1/2s in. As for as SQ goes they sound awesome, crystal clear mids and highs with hard hitting bass.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 17
Registered: Oct-04
If I was to weld metal onto all the spots of the door panel that dont have anything there, then put a full door dynamat down would that help?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 18
Registered: Oct-04
Put the Type Rs and everything in, sounds AWESOME! Thanks to everyone for helping me out with everything, couldnt of done it with ouy you guys.

Stats:

*Four 6x9 250 Watt Alpine 3 - Ways
*Two 12" Alpine Type R 1,000 watt subs
*360 x 2 @ 2 ohm amp/1,500 watts for subs
*60 x 4 @ 4 ohm 4 channel amp/650 watts for 6x9s
*Dual 12" sealed and optional ported enclosure
*2.4 Farad Digital Capacitor with LED chasers
*Pioneer DEH-P6600 HU with Active matrix display
*Terk XM Radio tuner and HU module
 

Silver Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 233
Registered: Aug-04
Terk? Never heard of it.
 

Juggalo Jeff
Unregistered guest
hahaaaaaaaaa i got the same amp as you damien i think and i have two type r's 10 inch 1041d's i was thinkin of woring mine down to two ohms but its the same bridged at 4 ohms i guess so im leavin it
 

Juggalo Jeff
Unregistered guest
how in the beep can a car have 420,000 miles if its a 95? Let alone even go that far on one engine no way. I usually kno that cars can last up to 250,000 well taken care of but 420,000 no way thats insane you drove that much? Thats like 40,000 miles a year.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Deathshadow

Post Number: 19
Registered: Oct-04
Yep it sounds insane and it is, that car owes me nothing. The water pump is about to go so im going to have to change that (50$ in parts). Other then that Just always did my oil changes every 3,000 miles and took care of the fluids and greased it. And yes I drive LOTS! I live up in Orange county NY (about 65 miles out of the city and I commute into Manhattan 5 days a week and back. Car is a little over 10 years old and round trip is 130 miles. 130 miles x 5 days a week = 650 miles.
650 miles x 48 weeks in a year = 31,200 miles a year. 31,200 miles x 10 years = 312,000 miles. Then add in vacations and local driving over the last 10 years and you have the rest. Thats how she got so many miles on her. I have seen Camry's with 600,000 miles on them, these motors run for ever. The floors will rot out before the car dies on all the Toyotas ive own lol.

Terk makes XM tuners and modules that plug into your XM Ready HU. You can find them here Joe:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Terk-XM--Universal-Tuner--XMDirect--/sem/rpsm/oid /93341/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/oid/99987/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 412
Registered: Sep-04
Man I bet you have great midbass with 4 6x9's.

Back in the pre subwoofer era JBL T540's were the king of kings in car audio. Combined with the very First Rockford Fosgate stuff(Punch 40 and 100) they sounded sick. I wore out a pair in the 1980 AMC Eagle sedan I had in High School. Tried to get em reconed. They were rated at 100 watts(high for the day), but they put the wrong coils and cones in and took a dump after about 3 months of abuse from my Xtant 4180c.

Man they sounded good with classic rock with the same line 6 1/2 coaxs up front. Not the prettiest sounding speaks, but can you say "Midbass from Hell"? I've been trying regain that sound for the past 20 years and unfortunately 5 1/4's just don't hack it.

Well I hope you enjoy your system.

-Fishy

[note]I read about a Volvo with over a million w/o rebuild. Guy said he was gonna shoot for two if he lived long enough.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 2172
Registered: May-04
I have a friend that has an 89 Ford F350 diesel work truck with nearly 1,250,000 on it, never rebuilt as well. Of course, diesels tend to last a LONG time, so he's not going to make any record books or anything. I read about a stock Ford 200 inline six over the 800,000 mile mark. Inline sixes lasted a while too. I haven't had so great of luck with my Camry, I took care of everything, changed oil every 6,000 miles (synthetic), greased all suspension, regular filter changes. Just one of those cars that hated to see me coming I guess.
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