Lings
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 859 Registered: Jul-07 | The Lings landed safely here today Nuck. For now I just popped the Sierra's off of their stands and plopped the Lings in the exact same configuration. I blutak'd them to the top plate of the stands, but I think Jan had suggested that might not be the best setup. I don't have any spare cones to try, but a quick trip to the hardware store on the weekend should yield some options. My Sierra's were toed in enough so that they were basically pointing at the outside edge of my shoulders, so that's where the Lings are as well. I'll experiment with that a bit more when I have more time. One thing I noticed right off, the little buggers are less efficient than my Sierra's even. I'm using about an extra hour on the dial to get equivalent volume levels. They must be only 84/85db efficiency or so. I had a chance this evening to listen to a little Liz Wright, some Robinella, and a couple of tracks from Bob Mintzer and his band. Not near enough to get a handle on them, but it's pretty obvious they do some very important things well. The first track on the Bob Mintzer at the MCG disk (Caborojéno) proved they do jazz. I thought they'd be a bit bass shy, but they hold up well in that department. They don't go as deep as the Sierra's but they carry the bass enough to give the music a strong foundation, and they don't screw things up by booming out a bunch of rumble. I'm looking forward to the weekend when I can spend more time with them. I'm trying to get more exposure to SDFR speakers so this is an opportunity I greatly appreciate. Thanks Nuck. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14710 Registered: Dec-04 | I hope you find the best place for them, CH. I found 24" corner loading to be allowed, for the just the reasons you state. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3734 Registered: May-05 | I really want to be a SDFR speaker guy. What they do right, they do amazingly right. I just can't get past the rolled of highs and lows that most of them have. I look forward to hearing your options about them after you've lived with them for a while. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14615 Registered: May-04 | . "I just can't get past the rolled of highs and lows that most of them have." What have you heard? My experience has been nothing like yours when it comes to single driver systems. The vast majority sound less "hifi" than multi-way systems with nothing lacking in any area when it comes to music reproduction other than the limitation of volume and complexity of structure combined. A single driver can have a difficult time at extreme volumes when forced to play Mahler's 4th. . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3736 Registered: May-05 | I've heard several. Many homebrews, and a few commerically available one. To one extent or another they sounded a bit soft at the top and bottom. Most didn't liked to be pushed too hard either. They all had excellent soundstaging, imaging, and were very cohesive sounding. No disconnect between frequencies. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14617 Registered: May-04 | . "Soft"?! Might I ask whether you've been infuenced by all the multi-way speakers out there to think a speaker should "sound" a certain way? Once again my experience is more speakers are designed to sell in a showroom comparison than are designed to allow the music to be the main event. . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 864 Registered: Jul-07 | I think I know what you mean Stu. I had the same initial impression with my limited exposure to SDFR designs. But in the end for me (as Jan eluded to) it's just a difference in presentation. I think a lot of speakers these days are geared for the "sparkle" factor which makes the top end more prevalent or exaggerated than is naturally there in a normal live setting. I find the same with the lower frequencies on some speakers. I never go to a concert and hear bass that predominant. It's there supporting the song, but it's not THE thing unless the bass player is highlighted in some way. The Lings don't highlight or throw the upper (or lower for that matter) frequencies at you, but they sound very natural and connected. The Omegas that I have heard are also very natural sounding, although leaner and I think faster than the Lings. There are a number of speaker designers that use a hybrid model by running the main driver full range, but then adding a super tweeter to fill in above 10,000 hz...or even higher in some designs. Those might appeal to you more. One that I'm very interested in hearing is the speaker designs from Tonian Labs. He uses a ribbon tweeter with a wide band driver in a partially open baffle design. The TL-D1 is the most reviewed of the bunch, but I haven't read anythin bad about any speaker Tony Minasian has designed. He certainly takes a less traveled approach to speaker design. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3737 Registered: May-05 | I'm not talking about presentation or comparing SDFRs to any other speakers. To my ears, the SDFRs I've heard don't do the extremes well. I don't care about what speakers are supposed to sound like, I care about how music sounds. I don't buy music to listen to my system, I bought my system to listen to my music. There's a difference. I don't claim to have the utmost SDFR experience. Maybe the ones I've heard are the exceptions and not the rule. I've heard more than a handful though. Chris - I haven't heard the Omegas. They intrigue me. SDFRs have a lot of great qualities, but they have trade offs just like every other design and piece of gear. Everyone listens for different things. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy music. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 865 Registered: Jul-07 | Chris - I haven't heard the Omegas. They intrigue me. SDFRs have a lot of great qualities, but they have trade offs just like every other design and piece of gear. : No question there are compromises made in every design. I'm not saying what's right or wrong....sorry if that's the impression I gave. Even amoung the SDFR designs, the approaches and ultimately the presentation can be very different. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3739 Registered: May-05 | That wasn't the impression given. Just stating how everyone has different priorities in their accepted trade offs. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14715 Registered: Dec-04 | Tim also added a tweeter to the Lings in further iterations of the little darlin'. He mentioned to me one time that a ribbon can be added on top, but I felt that would be a bit much, for me. Extensions at the limits are certainly not endless, given this choice of driver. However, the bass is the easiest to work with, and placement and corner loading are easily done with this enclosure. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14621 Registered: May-04 | . Actually, the Ling I reviewed was the "mk.I" version so to speak. It included a (costly) Fostex tweeter crossed at 10 kHz with the CSS driver running full range. Or, more specifically, running "wide range" as the original driver was a bit shy about high frequency extension and required a little assistance at the very top. Not long after I reviewed the speaker CSS brought a full range driver of the same basic design to market which allowed Tim to manufacture the "single Ling". That speaker supplanted the two way and made it all but unnecessary. Emma was Tim's next commercial design and it employed a ribbon tweeter on top of a driver run full range (the Extremis 6.5). It employed a 6 kHz crossover if I remember correctly. Several of Tim's basic ideas have been used in similar boxes from various designers, most of whom have been associated with DIY audio forums. There's a thriving SDFR forum over there for anyone interested. . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 866 Registered: Jul-07 | Speaking of your review of the Lings JV, I believe you found that cones under the Lings were preferred to blutak. I don't have spare cones to try but I ordered some and should have them in a week or so. I'll need a few sets anyway for a rack I'd like to make. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14721 Registered: Dec-04 | Chris, I tapped the cabs for 1/4-20 threads for spikes or pads. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14624 Registered: May-04 | . TipToes (cones) worked best in both of my set ups with the Lings. They died when I adhered them to the stand with PlastiTak which seemed to suck all the life out of the sound. Tim liked the idea and later versions were tapped as they came from his cabient builder. If you have appropriate size ball bearings, they would also work as well. Just decouple the speaker from the stand while making sure the stand has sufficient mass and rigidity. I started out with simple cement blocks for experimentation regarding proper height which worked out to be just beneath ear level with the speakers tilted back ever so slightly in my systems. Toe the speakers in toward your chair until you see nothing of the sides of the cabinets, you should see only the front bafffle and nothing more. Experiment from that position. . . |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3723 Registered: Feb-07 | What are you doing with the Sierras Chris? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14724 Registered: Dec-04 | I had the Lings on spikes to a thick slab of wood, on a thick towel, sitting on an open cabinet, with some corner placement, (no choice, really) and enjoyed them that way. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 867 Registered: Jul-07 | Thanks, I'll try that out. Spikes should be here next week. I have to say though, even blutak'd to the stands now they sound very good. If it gets better on spikes....wow. I listened to them for a few hours this morning and in my little room and with the RWA amp they work magic. They are about 24" from both the side and back walls, with 4" of oc609 in behind them and they have very tight bass with lots of texture. They don't go quite as deep as my Sierra's, but you get more detail and life with bass instruments. Bowed double bass is fantastic. The Sierra's are out of focus in comparison although more weighty. My stands are pretty heavy. About 30 pounds or so. Corian top and bottom plate with a 6" mdf piller filled with kitty litter. They're about 28" high or so, so the tweeter of the Lings are every so slightly below ear level with my chair upright, about even or above if I recline (which I often do). I have a little repair job to do on one of them though. I noticed when I was removed the Sierra's that one seam has come apart in the pillar so litter was leaking out a bit. I'll have to drive a couple of screws into it before I try moving them to adjust toe in or I'll make a mess. I'll fix that up this afternoon. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 868 Registered: Jul-07 | Crap. In the process of "fixing" my stands I cracked the top plate. Arrrrrgghhhh!!! Broke completely in two. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2352 Registered: May-06 | Quick lock the cat in another room! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3724 Registered: Feb-07 | lol! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14727 Registered: Dec-04 | While not exactly CNN, I find it distressing to read the news as it happens... Thank gawd I do not twitter!  |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 869 Registered: Jul-07 | Ok, I'm better now. Pulled out my old maple stands and regrouped. I didn't have any ball bearings so I substituted some of the kids marbles. They appear to have lost theirs anyway. I mounted each of the Lings on 3 marbles each. One immediate difference was everything got louder. I had to lower the volume a couple of notches. Better focus everywhere, especially the midrange. I tried them toed in so I couldn't see the sides, but preferred them in my room just slightly out pointed directly at each ear. I think I do need a sub to get a full presentation, but with acoustic material this setup sounds remarkable. Sarah McLachlan's Ordinary Miracle was just that. Goose bumps. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 870 Registered: Jul-07 | "What are you doing with the Sierras Chris?" I missed your question David, sorry. I have them up in the living room doing HT duty. Sounding good there too. The 170's are retired for now. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3727 Registered: Feb-07 | Good stuff Chris. That's what I mainly use my Sierras for too. I have the matching center channel for them too. My wife loves that the bamboo matches the new flooring. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14730 Registered: Dec-04 | Any changes CH? Glad you will keep them.  |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 872 Registered: Jul-07 | I haven't snagged new stands yet. Once the delivery from Parts Express get here I'll try them up on spikes on the new stands. I also snagged some of these to try on my cdp.... http://www.goosystems.com/gooeys/ It's sounding very, very good though Nuck right now. With them up on marbles I lost a little bass weight (might need a sub) but the midrange and treble focus and clarity is outstanding. Better still, not a bit of hardness in any of it. The match between the RWA amp and the Lings seems to be a thing of beauty. I think they speak the same language. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 878 Registered: Jul-07 | I decided to defer the purchase of new stands for now. A trip to Home Depot netted a small length of 1x8 oak that I used to replace the top plates of my old stands. I also purchased a half sheet of Russion Birch plywood to see if getting the stands off of the floor more would help. I spiked 1 sheet down, and then added 2 more on each side. It got the speaker height just right, and improved transparency. These speakers just amaze me. Other than being a bit shy in the bass (weight and extension, although articulation is very good until they roll off) they are tremendous in my smallish listening space. String and reed instruments are spot-on. Once my order from Parts Express gets here I'll try replacing the marbles under the Lings with brass footers. I think a small, musical subwoofer is in order. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14793 Registered: Dec-04 | great stuff CH! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 880 Registered: Jul-07 | My Part Express order was home when I got there yesterday, so I tried replacing the marbles with brass cones. I preferred it. A touch more warmth to the bass and lower midrange. Imaging and depth was better as well, especially voices. I don't know if I can dial them in any better than they are right now. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14713 Registered: May-04 | . I don't know about your particular set of speakers but I made a minor modification while I had the speakers in for my listening session. (I reversed these changes before I sent the speakers on for others to review.) I've never been much of a fan of ported systems - other than the transmission lines and their variants that I've experienced (which IMO have the best overall bass quality of any enclosure type) - due to the port noise and upper frequency information exiting the port (generally out of phase with the front wave of the drivers). With the main driver of the Lings covering such a broad frequency range I was slightly bothered by the amount of port noise typical to bass reflex cabinets and the inaccuracies through the midrange that seemed to be the result of Tim not using any internal damping material in his original design. It's a common practice with bass reflex enclosures to not apply any sort of internal damping material but on the Lings in particular, with all they had going for them, I thought this was a convention that need to be challenged. I used a few small, 1/2" thick sheets of polyfill and applied one to the rear baffle of the cabinet (behind the driver) to minimize early reflections back toward the driver itself. I applied a second, smaller layer directly behind the driver that did not extend up the entire rear baffle. Non-permanent double stick tape (poster or notebooking tape) works well for experimentation and allows for easy removal if you think the polyfill has damped the energy out of the overall sound - which it can do, don't over do it thinking if a little is good ... You're working with a completed speaker and you don't want to mess with the apparent volume of the box the driver sees when you begin adding stuffing to any speaker enclosure. Apply the small pad behind the driver first, adhering it to the rear baffle and then, if you think it's warranted, place the larger sheet over that. If you like the improvement, experiment with just how much padding is required in this location to get the sound quality you prefer. If you can find it in a shop a single, thicker layer of felt used as carpet padding would be a good second choice for experimentation. You want to use the least amount of material that gives satisfatctory results and that means trying a few materials and listening for just how much of the rear baffle needs to be damped. The area directly behind the driver is usually the most critical for this particular modification. I would suggest you take these modifications one at a time so you are fully aware of just how each affects the overall performance of the speaker. Doing everything at once gets confusing and you can't tell which change gave which result. Next, I used a 1/2" thick sheet of polyfill and layed it between the driver and the port's internal mouth which provided a bit of resistance to the port to minimize the noises I was hearing. While not dramatically altering the virtual volume of the enclosure these two additions went a long way IMO to smoothing a few of the niggling glitches that bothered me about the original Ling's basic performance. I mentioned these changes to Tim and he was taking them under consideration last time I heard from him. I don't have a clue if he adopted any of them in his final decisions about how the Ling would progress. Then he stopped production and everything became moot. Access to the enclosure's internals are easily managed by lifting the main driver out of the cabinet and you can work from the outside in for the few additions required for this modification. If you'd like, while you have the driver out for the final adjustment and securing of the damping material, you can also solder the connections to the binding posts, the crossover board and the drivers. (If you're not good at soldering, don't attempt this as you can make a real mess with a hot soldering iron and all that plastic and polypropolene driver material around the inside of the Ling.) If you're really brave and inventive, you can manage a solid run of cable to the internals of the speaker and to your amplifier and eliminate the binding posts altogether. Just make sure you seal up any holes so the port is still the only escape path for internal pressure. Silicon caulk would work for sealing holes if you allow it to set up before you start pumping pressure into the box. If you just can't wait, buy some rope caulk (Mortite) and use it around any holes, it stays flexible in room temperatures for years so it can easily be repositioned at a later date. You can also experiment with a foam rubber type "caulk" (sold as a sealant for windows and doors) placed between the drivers and the front baffle, about 1/4" type should be good. I would not advise you to secure the drivers with silicon cualk. If you ever need to pull the driver, it will be extremely difficult. Experiment with just how tightly you secure the drivers to the front baffle as the torque on the screws determines just how much mechanical energy is transferred from the driver to the box. Some systems will perform best when the screws are torqued snuggly (like an oil filter, to finger pressure and then a bit more) while other systems will respond to a somewhat looser or tighter attachment. Never overtorque the screws and listen to each adjustment. Periodically go back and make sure the screws have not loosened due to vibration no matter how tight you decide they should be initially. A minor improvement can be made by placing foam or felt around the tweeter. Buy some felt strips/pads at Walmart or any home improvement store and experiment with surrounding the tweeter with a thin layer of felt to minimize reflections off the front baffle. One or two layers of felt pads normally will do the trick. The pads are self stick and you can remove any material you feel doesn't benefit the sound. No need to do anything to the main driver due to its dispersion pattern. If you've read my review of the Lings, you might remember I preferred the speakers when they were not mass loaded directly to the stands. I placed a small square of maple hardwood between the cones and stand's top plate. YMMV You can go a tad further with your DIY mods and, if you'd like, after you've tried these few ideas, I can give another idea or two. . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 883 Registered: Jul-07 | Thanks JV. I'm assuming most of this would apply with the single driver Lings.....which these are. No tweeter. I'll give some of this a try. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14796 Registered: Dec-04 | same cab and port, CH. The rearwave treatment seems promising. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 894 Registered: Jul-07 | I picked up a sub at the local dealer, from a company called Reel Acoustics. 8" driver, duel front ports. Works perfect. It only took me an hour or so to get it dialed in pretty well, and I've only made very small adjustments today....mostly to the xover point. With the sub in place the presentation is now complete. Very compelling, and very difficult to turn off. What's blown me away the most is what the Lings do with the little things, and the things that are so hard to get right. Brushes on a snare drum, a drummer riding the hi-hat, muted trumpet, vibes, piano....all the things that I wasn't getting right before. All done extremely well. I'm sure the RWA amp isn't hurting the cause at all. The two work very well together, with the Minimax of course. Thanks again Nuck. Best music investment I ever made. I'll give JV's suggestions a try and see how much better they can be. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14855 Registered: Dec-04 | I love a happy setup! So long as the power is not overapplied, CH, I think you have a top flyte small room setup. The Minimax is the best piece. My smilies are not working...grin |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Aurora, Colorado United States Post Number: 2218 Registered: Jun-05 | The Lings with the tweeter is crossed at 10khz,so they should'nt sound much differrent with most music than without the tweeter,even with the tweeter its not that spotlit showroom type of treble anyway,considering the woofer handles about 8 octaves,the 2 should sound very similar. |
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New member Username: Dj_genoPost Number: 1 Registered: Jul-10 | I have a few outdoors gigs coming up this summer. What would you suggest or have that i should look into? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15138 Registered: Dec-04 | An umbrella? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14979 Registered: May-04 | . I've got some "outdoor gigs" this summer too. I'm using a weedwhacker and a mower. You're gonna have to be more specific before we're going to be able to help. And why in the world did you decide to put this in this existing thread? . |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4061 Registered: Feb-07 | My outdoor gig yesterday afternoon was napping in my hammock. |
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