How about sub-dividing the receiver forum...
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Anonymous | ...into a "NAD/Pioneer Elite" category and an "All Others" category. This way we can all avoid the common scenario: Newbie: "Should I buy Yamaha X receiver or Denon Y? I think I like the Yamaha a lot (please don't hurt me)." Elitefan: "Yamaha sucks you fool. Get a Pioneer Elite." GDawg: "What he said." Hawk: "Yeah, me too." Johnny: "Don't forget about NAD!" Elitefan/GDawg/Hawk: "AMEN BROTHER!" (all four high-five each other) Good grief. Some of us don't want an Elite or a NAD, and believe it or not, we see other viable options. So to summarize, if someone is trying to decide between X and Y receiver, and you have nothing nice to say about either one, perhaps you can avoid the temptation to jump in. You may feel like you're trying to help a senseless fool avoid a terrible mistake but you just further muddy the waters. Let someone who knows about Yamahas or Denons or whatever respond so we don't have to sift through all your Elite-ist rantings... |
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Alan | Anon, Pretty funny! It wouldn't be that funny if I didn't think that was, at least, partly true. I think what you have are a few guys who have strong opinions about the receivers they like very much. Moreover, you have Hawk who obviously have auditioned many receivers with many different speaker arrangements and just knows a sh*tload more than anyone who frequents this site. Hawk is cool enough to share his experience with everyone and I think he's real asset to this site. I'm sure many people, including me, come to this site just to read his posts trying to learn a little more each day. I would hardly call this "Elitist rantings." These guys are not trying to push anything, they're just trying to help....even though sometimes that may come across the wrong way. Moreover, no one has to listen to these recommendations. These are recommendations, and nothing more...I think most people realizes this and no one can really force anyone to buy anything. And everyone should know that only their own ears can tell them what sounds good what doesn't. But I do agree with you that for those who are interested in Non-Elite or NAD equipment, sometimes they do get an earful. And I do agree with you that if we don't agree with the options, perhaps we should just refrain from "helping" too much. Unless of course, they specifically asks for our opinions. But splitting this forum is counter-productive IMHO, because I think many newbie's will actually miss out on some very important points and basic understandings of audio equipment without the help of these veterans. There are actually people out there who knows nothing about wanting to buy an PElite or NAD, but wants to know why they shouldn't buy a Sony. My two cents. |
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Rapier | I think that's un-called for. You have a point, but it's no excuse for a personnel attack against some of the most helpful individuals on this board. They do have their own preferences, but that comes with the territory. |
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Anonymous | Any names used were just for reference based on a small sampling of posts and don't necessarily reflect their historical input on this forum. Except for Elitefan, whose anti-Yamaha bias is consistently clear and over the top. My apologies to the others. |
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Johnny | I sincerely hope that all of these negative posters of the last few weeks are just one person who wants to start a fire and sit back and watch it burn...someone who gets some sort of sick pleasure out of hurting other people. My guess would be that they were picked on as a child (or maybe they still are a child) and now they can do the picking on "anonymously". Every morning when I look at these posts there is a new bash thread. It is really starting to get old. If you disagree with what I or anyone else says, then put your EDUCATED views right under ours. But please, refrain from namecalling and personal attacks. If you are going to criticize someones recommendations, at least have reasons why you disagree and give some other recommendations. It does no one any good otherwise. |
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| Bottom line people: buy what you like. It doesn't matter what anyone else likes. If you like what you're going to buy, then more power to you. If you ask anyone on this board what they think of something, THEY WILL PROBABLY TELL YOU WHAT THEY THINK OF SOMETHING, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. If you like it, great, go buy it, who cares what anyone else likes. Buy Sony Receivers, Yamaha Speakers and Cambridge Subwoofers, if thats what you like, then great, go buy them. Its your wallet. If you are seeking approval from the people on the board, get over it. They don't live with you, they don't care what you have in your house and as long as you like it, you shouldn't care what they think of it. I have learned one thing by reading this board. There are a whole bunch of good products out there. There is no number one best system out there for 2500 bucks, or any other amount of money. The only way to learn/decide what is best for you is to seek out the stuff you see on here, and listen for yourself. In the past month, I have spent about a hundred hours taking CDs into these different places and listening to music. Soon I am going to cut my list down and start getting these places to audition them in my living room and then I'll decide what I want. Be patient. No one can decide what you like for you. Good luck and may the force be with you! |
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Stone | Actually, I think Anon Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 02:02 am has a pretty good idea. I have been to a website or two that does sub divide and I find it way easier to navigate and get specific info on certain units. The NAD fans tell people not to read their posts if you are not interested in getting an NAD, yet the posts seem to sneak up on you halfway through a thread. The "oh no not again" feeling does get a bit iritating. |
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Anonymous | First off, this was my first post. I'm not trying to start a flame war. I'm anonymous because I'm new to these forums, I don't "live" here, this forum is not my life. I only came for info as I'm looking for a new receiver and was quite bothered by all the blatant bias. Posts such as Elitefan's saying "Yamaha? Yech." give me no factual information. They are worthless to me as an "uninformed" buyer. And I don't see such posts as "trying to help." But I see a lot of posts of that nature. They are simply noise that get in the way of information. I have to dig through all that noise to try to get at some real facts or rational opinions. Which takes a lot of my time. Which irritates me. The reason you're seeing a lot of negative posts recently is apparently because some people are getting fed up with all the brand-loyal propaganda. Are we talking stereo components here or Fords vs. Chevys? Secondly, there are no personal attacks in my post. There is no namecalling. I didn't say "So and so is an idiot." Or anything of that nature. If you think my "simulated" conversation is off-base, browse through some recent threads and you'll see just how accurate it is. I'll definitely buy what I want and won't be thrown off course by personal brand loyalties or biases of the forum "regulars." But some people will be. It bothers me to see first-time posters come in asking about a couple of receivers and get nothing but rantings about this brand or that. Some of these newbies react as if their eyes have been opened, and they skip off to their nearest store to pick up a Pioneer Elite receiver when they were seriously considering something else, and when something else probably would have served their needs better. It is a disservice to these buyers, and it is a disservice to other companies who happen to make fine products, despite what you personally think. |
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Anonymous | Man, let people buy what they want and stop blaming other people's advice and comments on what someone may or may not be buying right now. That's ridiculous! It's all up to someone's ears and if any one person is willing to buy a receiver based solely on what someone on a discussion board says, then so be it. That's their prerogative. Let them complain about it if they are really bothered by it. Don't complain for them or put your opinions in their mouth. In regards to separating this forum: Sure, it sounds like a useful idea, but then doesn't that create the same problem that people like anon, Jacko and caNADian are complaining about right now? Then, when someone visits the "Sony" version (or others....I'm not trying to single Sony out) of this board, their decision is influenced solely by people who love Sony. Same for NAD, Pioneer, etc., etc., etc. No matter where you'd go, the people who love a certain brand of receiver would be singing their praise in that particular section. Understand? I just think that people need to stop creating threads that are nothing but b**ch sessions. Is that really helping anyone with their past, current, or future receiver questions? I don't think so. If you have a view point on a certain thread, then post it. Don't be accusatory or childish enough to resort to name calling....simply post your opinion, facts, or experiences. It's really that easy. Instead of spending your time searching thread after thread for who said what and when, spend your time helping other people (or being helped, if that's what you're here for). |
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Anonymous | If gripe threads like this help people tone down the rhetoric, then yes, the end result will "help anyone with their past, current, or future receiver questions." The gripe threads pop up because this board is tainted. Those who don't buy into all the propaganda get tired of seeing it all the time. |
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Anonymous | Anon, Please tell me again, what is the problem with people advocating the brand that they are happy with? I thought that was what this forum is for. That is all anyone on here does. Before I started reading this forum, I had never heard of NAD, Rotel, or Arcam. It was because of so many good recommendations on this forum that I did try out NAD, compared it to nearly everything else in its price range, and am now a happy T742 owner. At the beginning, I was never considering NAD because I was ignorant, not because I didn't want to. When I asked people to compare Yamaha and Denon, someone suggested an NAD. I am sure glad that they did. What is wrong with that? Recommendations that go outside specifically what is asked only give the viewer more possiblities. |
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Anonymous | If this board is so tainted, then go somewhere else! |
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Anonymous | PS. For goodness sake, stop quoting people. What, are you a freaking reporter or something? |
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Anonymous | There is no problem with advocating your favorite brand. That should be expected in a forum such as this. But these posts go far beyond that. To illustrate, let me include some snippets from posts from a certain fan of the Pioneer Elite line. Take a look at these and tell me exactly how these are either helpful or informative to a perspective buyer. Many are downright condescending and rude. It bothers me to see a newbie post asking about Brand A receiver. Someone replies with something like "Brand A is a pile of dung. If you like Brand A, you are a mindless git and your ears are clogged with wax. You should buy Brand B." To which the newbie responds "Wow, I was so uninformed. Thanks Mr. X! I'll go take a look at Brand B right now!" If anyone happens to post a counterpoint in defense of Brand A (all too rare, unfortunately), they are often attacked for trying to start a flame war. You don't see a problem with this? And can you honestly say you haven't seen this happening? If people can stick with the facts, show some humility when expressing opinions, or scale back the fanboy vitriol, we would all be better served. Here are the snippets. Read and be edified! ******************** ** Any salesman who would steer you to Yamaha over Elite should be fired! ** Once again Yamaha is making what amounts to fraudulent claims about one of their products in hopes that the uninitiated will pay no mind.....Yamaha? LIARS! ** This is in response to the poster of the 12th who said he didn't think the 2400 was brighter than the Elite55. Is there something wrong with your hearing or what? ** You are another who is not listneing or cannot read. ** To recommend Yamaha over the Elite or the Marantz is ill-informed to say the least. ** To each his own and I'm glad yours is yours and not mine. ** Selective reasoning must be a wonderful way to go through life. ** Compare Yamaha 3300 to a Denon5803. Are you serious or just nuts? The 5803 blows away anything Yamaha has ever dreamed about. I am no Denon fan but give me a break. If you replaced a Marantz9000 with a Yamaha you need serious help. ** You are certainly full of yourself aren't you. You know... Give me a break. I stand behind everything I said about Yamaha's in my previous posting and if you want to live in your selective dream world go ahead. ** You must really love brightness and sibilance if you like the 3803 or the 1400. ** I don't know what you are hearing but Elite's are much warmer and smoother than Denon. ** Hope you didn't have a change of mind and get a Yamaha. Yech. ** I am responding to peoples questions and if you don't like what I have to say that's just to bad....So in closing; get a grip! |
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Anonymous | Seriously, though. Is that all you have better to do with your time? Instead of taking all of the time to hunt down so many "snippets", why don't you use your opinion to help people in a way you think would be better than some of these other people are? If you think their advice is so bad, then counter weigh their opinion and advise people to buy the product you have had success with. You are obviously not going to post your name, since it would make your advice a little less reputable, but you're not any better than these that you say "are downright condescending and rude" (I have a copy feature too). You are doing the same thing, only to people who are reputable and are simply giving advice to people who want it. If these people don't want advice from any one person, let them say so. And if you are doing that, then simply do it by saying "I need advice on such and such, but I would rather not get a response from so and so, since I know what their opinion is". That wouldn't be that hard and would make you seem like a much more mature person. Just my opinion. |
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JonMoom | Anon from Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 02:02 am, At the risk of getting flamed again, I agree with your comments to a point. It would be nice if the posters all would conform with some rules of etiquette and provide information rather than simple declarations. I also appreciate the perspective of someone who is new to this forum. I do think it makes little sense to trash brands. I also think that people coming to forums like this are looking for more information than what large department store employees can tell them. It would be nice to have a happy medium. |
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Anonymous | To Anonymous of 2:22 pm: Is it time consuming to copy and paste all these comments? Of course. You prove my point. Think of all the time I originally wasted having to read these posts when all I wanted was some rational advice on which receiver to buy. Yes, these snippets all came from comments I had read previously. That's my gripe: spare me the time of having to sort through all this bias and cut to the chase. If I'm asking about Yamaha X receiver vs. Pioneer Elite Y receiver, give me a feature comparison. "Pioneer has this feature, the Yamaha doesn't. But the Yamaha has this..." This kind of advice is useful to me as a prospective buyer. To simply say something like "Pioneer makes better stuff than Yamaha has ever dreamed of" does no one any good whatsoever. Don't waste my bandwidth with such opinionated fluff. This site is supposed to be, after all, "The Unbiased Resource for Product Reviews, Buying Guides, and More....," no?  If you are madly in love with Elites and despise Yamahas, I have no problem with that. But don't confuse that preference with concrete fact and preach it to the uninitiated on this BBS. I'm sure there are Yamaha engineers who would be happy to dispute some of the claims made against their products on this site. Ditto any other manufacturer who is consistently lambasted by a handful of you. As far as me spending my time trying to help others, what can I say, what I know about receivers could fit in a teaspoon. That's what I'm here for. I'm not here to advise, I'm here for advice. But I'm not seeing much of that. I'm seeing a lot of opinion being paraded around as fact. I'm appreciative of helpful information from some of the obviously knowledgeable members of this forum. All I ask is that some of you try to separate fact from fiction and try to keep some of your posts below the level of religious fervor. That's all we prospective buyers can ask for. Thx. P.S. In what way am I being condescending or rude? And if pointing out the truth in a rational manner is considered immature, well, what can I say, I guess I have a lot of growing up to do. |
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G.DawG | Anon 4:04pm, Dont you think we have heard Yamahas and compared them for ourselves? It all really depends on the speakers someone has. If you say you have Paradigms or PSb's then maybe I would suggest a Yamaha instead of an Elite. The truth is I used to own a Yamaha(RX-V420), but it was hard to listen too and it didnt have the power that I like. I found everything I wanted in a Elite. (an old VSX-05) So honestly, if Yamaha was really ALL THAT wouldnt there be some people who always suggested it and wer biased toward it? The educated people will say that Yamaha WAS good (about 10-30 years ago) but with there all new 50 CINEMA DSP's, and cheap power supplys, they just arent as good anymore. So if you really like Yamahas are awsome, then go buy one and dont turn our message board into a place to b*itch about what we think. We recomend NAD and Elite because we think they sound the best, we arent going to start recomending Yamaha because of something you or anybody says. G.DawG |
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Anonymous | Ah yes, your message board, that's what I didn't realize is it's been hijacked by a select few. Anyone who dares run a counterpoint to your opinions is immediately flamed. Not true? Check the threads. I don't care if you don't recommend Yamahas, nor am I griping about what you think. If you don't like Yamahas or Denons or Sonys or whatever, that's just fine with me. I have no problem with that. Maybe NAD and Elite sound the best, at least to you. Maybe to me too, once I get to audition them side-by-side. I haven't reached that point yet. I was hoping for some good feature comparisons from this board before I go hear them for myself. Alas, such info is hard to find amid all the brand-centric raging here. What I'm saying is people need to weed out some of the bias from their posts and replace it with a little constructive advice. Or refrain from posting if you have nothing positive to add to a thread. If such a criticism is too much for you to handle, sorry. |
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G.DawG | Well then Anon, What DID you want to know? |
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Anonymous | I was going to ask how the Yamaha RX-V2400 compares to the Denon 3803 or the Pioneer Elite equivalent (feature-wise, not sound-wise, as I can evaluate that one for myself), but I'm afraid to pose the question... |
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Anonymous | Anon: So how come you can't evaluate the features on the receivers yourself? Surely its as simple as requesting brochures and comparing their feature lists. |
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G.DawG | Anonymous 7:32, The receiver you should get will be dependant upon your speakers. Get the Elite for brighter speakers and the Yamaha or Denon for warmer speakers. Start there and keep posting, and go to crutchfield.com they are awsome for comparing and specs and all that junk,but Im sure Hawk would want to make you a deal on his 3803:-) |
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G.DawG | Anon, this may spark your interest. http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-P8k6mlfxm9W/ProdView.asp?a=0&s=0&cc=01&g=10420&id=features_and_specs&i=033AVR3803 |
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you know who | this may also http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/RECEIVER/RX-V2400.htm |
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Anonymous | How do you determine whether a speaker is considered "warm" or "bright?" I've had my eye on some Aperions. I've read good reviews and they look beautiful. Would the Aperions be considered bright or warm? Thanks for the feedback. |
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Anonymous | The Silent Cinema and Night Listening modes of the Yamaha are features that appeal to me. Useful, if perhaps gimmicky. Also the inclusion of Dolby IIx. Kudos to Yamaha for the 12-page PDF brochure. That's helpful. Denon only has a 2-page brochure on their site, and I can't find one for the Pioneer VSX-53TX at all. I wish companies would start getting more serious about putting out more information electronically. This is the Internet age after all. Ultimately I need to listen to the receiver next to the Denon and Pioneer. But going in knowing which features are found on each receiver will be a good foundation. |
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dave | I cant keep track of all the anonymous's! I'm surprised at the levels this board has sunk to. Can't remember how I stumbled on these forum's but I'm glad I did. I think most Audio salesmen today are poorly educated in their products (ex: a kid at circit city told me a Onkyo sr501 and 601 both were THX certified. I just nodded and ignored him.) or they have an agenda. The best type of advertising is word of mouth-and this forum is simply a means of accumulating word of mouth and strong opinions. Or simply suggestions to questions perhaps unanswerable elsewhere. What I heard in these forums in a few short days is Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer, have a 50/50 satisfaction rate at best, HK, Denon and Onkyo are held in much higher regard, and NAD and Marantz are overwhelmingly revered. I think you can make a better judgement on what's right for you based upon a sampling pool of recommedations and this forum provides that. Based on this forum, my budget, and my own research I have narrowed my choices down to an Onkyo tr601, Marantz 5300 (5400 if I can find one), or a NAD 742. I am confident I can't go wrong and at that point it's just personal preference as they are all sound products. (Plan on getting AXIOMS m22ti's to go with the receiver) Thanks for everyone's opinions. I enjoyed the venture as a silent observer. |
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John A. | There are good points in every post here, in my opinion. I actually think the basic disagreement is not about audio. But it is simply solved. Anonymous:- Your opinion that "opinions are paraded as facts" is not, itself, a fact, though you seem to believe it is. It is another opinion, and therefore its own target. I think we can see that from this thread. You are asking for facts, not opinions. Who among us can easily tell the difference, whether our own, or anyone else's? And can you supply what you complain others cannot? We learn to tell reality from subjective experience by comparing our own experiences with what others report about their own. As I try to say from time to time, it is actually generous of people to share what they think they have learned. That is all anyone can do, really. So let me quote you back:- "I'm not here to advise, I'm here for advice". That's not at all generous. If you feel cheated, claim your money back.... "....But I'm not seeing much of that. I'm seeing a lot of opinion being paraded around as fact." You will have to look elsewhere for certainty. Dealers will be happy to tell it to you. You will still have to face the awful problem of having to make up your own mind; take responsibility for your decisions. It is not helpful to unload responsibility onto someone else. People usually learn this lesson, it is called growing up. "Look what you made me do!" is not unhealthy, as long as it disappears at around age 5. Though there are some seriously arrested developers around, I know. Thank you for sharing your point of view. We all make mistakes from time to time. BTW "Anonymous" is a name that neatly guards against anything being attributable to you. Your criticism of named posters is claiming for yourself a status you do not grant to them. Please think a little harder about complaints concerning wasted time. |
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JonMoon | John A, I don't think you hit the gist of the original Anon's post. His point is that opinions are distilled to sound bites such as "Yamaha sucks" which replace the original explanation of why that opinion exists. One of the problem is that these opinions have been discussed so many times in different threads that it is similar to speaking a new language not to mention the actual new language of "receiver talk" which includes terms like total harmonic distortion etc. There is a prejudice in this forum against the commercial brands which are sold in Best Buy or Circuit City such as Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha, and Kenwood to name a few. I have seen this prejudice in other forums and articles. I am going to try to recap a bit. Please excuse my technical ignorance in advance. The concerns about the big stores is that the equipment they sell is mass-produced and targeted to uninformed consumers. These stores provide (usually) ignorant salespersonnel who push equipment to get their quick sales. The equipment is skewed with "bells and whistles" rather than audio quality. Additionally, there is a tendency toward a bright sound which superficially is a pleasing sound to the uninformed. There also is little or no chance to audition various equipment in any kind of decent listening environment. A big complaint against several of the brands which ultimately leads to the accusation of fraud is the way the amps are rated. There apparently is no uniform required method of rating the power of each unit. A couple of the companies (most notably HK and NAD) rate their amps with all the channels going. This is considered to be an "honest" rating of the power of the amps. Other companies rate their units by the power it supplies to one or two channels (examples: Yamaha and Onkyo). This creates a potentially misleading apples and oranges comparison. For example, if you compare an HK rated at 70 amps and a Yamaha rated at 120 amps you might think that the Yamaha is more powerful. However, the HK may rate the power of 5 channels going and when the Yamaha is similarly compared, its rating may only be 32 amps with 5 channels running. This problem is one which gets many in this forum up and arms and will lead to the claims of fraud and "yech!" However, all these brands are still popular and the home theater magazines along with the forums still highly recommend brands such as Yamaha and Sony and others. Also, Circuit City does sell HKs. What I found was that the posters on this forum led me to think about other considerations. Many of the bells and whistles on the various machines are useless. These posters often discuss and preach learning about the receivers and doing comparisons. Several of the posters seem to understand the fine art of defining the sound of the various receivers and matching them to speakers which have their own idiocyncracies. I learned to be more open to brands I had not heard of before and ask questions I had not heard before. I compared several brands and even did trials and tests. The good thing about Circuit City and Best Buy is their liberal return policies. You can buy this equipment, take it home and try it. If you don't like it, just return it. If you search the forums, you will fine many splendid explanations for the sound bites that the original poster found offputting. I would assume, however, that someone new to this forum would find it shrill. Ultimately, many of these kind posters, especially the ones named in the first post of this thread, will respond thoughtfully and with facts to questions which are posed. Unfortunately, many of the recent threads are directed to the process rather than the information. My three cents fwiw. |
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Johnny | JonMoon, I think you summed up my argument in one sentence. Pardon me for the quote...but it is so good I wanted to get it exactly right. In your posting above you say "What I found was that the posters on this forum led me to think about other considerations". When someone asks about comparing a Yamaha and an Onkyo, both of which are sold in mass market stores, and we suggest something like Pioneer Elite, NAD, or HK, we are not doing so just because we want to be biased and push our views on others. Rather, we want people to be aware of other brands that they may never have heard of. I know that I had never heard of NAD before I read this forum...and I am very thankful that Hawk and others were so forceful in their recommendations of NAD. If they had simply stuck to the brands I initially asked about (Yamaha and Denon I think), I might never have even considered NAD. They recommended it, I tried it, loved it, bought it, and am now a VERY satisfied customer. I do agree that when giving advice, people should try to back up their claims with solid evidence, but if we slip a few times, who cares? We are just passionate about our brands and get a little excited sometimes. Euphoria is a natural thing when talking about a purchase of this magnitude. If you don't like our advice or our strong recommendations of one particular brand, then don't read them or don't pay any attention to them. But don't take away the opportunities of others to learn about different brands that they may never have considered before. |
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Don | First off, that first post was hilarious! Kudos to the wit of the poster. However, I mostly agree with the remainder of the posters. There are other forums with a brand separation emphasis and all that results in is a bunch of die hards for each brand with barely any negative criticism on that brand within it's category/forum area. The fact that a handful of brands stand out in a field of dozens attests to the value and performance of those brands and is the kind of information I am looking for when I want to research a piece of equipment. Some posters are a bit harsh on brands, but if you read more of their posts it's easy to discern the reasoning for that individuals gripe. Take the Yamaha situation as an example. The receiver I currently own by Yamaha is a bit dated now and isn't equiped with 7 amp channels, but does weigh the same as their current line up. To me it seems as if Yamaha is trying to beef up their feature set, and it's about time!, but is doing so at the price of power supply (eg. 7 discrete amp channels with no increase in weight as would have to be the case for additional amps of equal quality of old). Now that may be the right solution profit-wise for Yamaha, certainly it allows them to be sold in more stores that the average consumer goes to, like BB or CC, but it is going to attract attention from quote "elitist's" like some of us who frequent forums and have commended Yamaha for it's quality and rogue path in the past. Take it or leave it, but don't gripe about it on a forum because you likely already bought a Yamaha and are second guessing yourself. The new RX-V2400 is a wonderful machine. To some it's the boon of the receiver world, others want a bit more guts to their choice, and still others are fine with a unit that costs hundreds less than that. But all should be able to converse about it freely. |
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Brand Neutral, Open Minded, & Undecided | Ya, I was being facetious with the suggestion to divide into two receiver forums to make a point. Just hoping for a little more balanced perspective among different brands and models as I try to make my decision. Thanks. |
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Al Holland | We all, to some degree at least, will recommend and defend the brands that we own and like. How many times does one reply: I own brand X and it sucks. I only remember Hawk as saying this. There is no perfect receiver on the market and we all buy for personal reasons. This is especially true because most receivers/speakers discussed here are not even mid range, and certainly not high end. Many of the brands that were considered excellent in the stereo or pro logic days are no longer cherished. I remember when Kenwood, Sansui, Onkyo, JVC, Yamaha (Denon was not even known) were great machines. Combined with Advent speakers these were to die for. We still had our debates over which was the best. Over the years I have owned almost every brand available. This includes B&K 307, Denon 5800, Yamaha RXV1, Sony 777ES to mention a few and many more entry to mid level units. I would take the Kenwood 6070 for movies any day and would take any other over Denon. The 6070 leaves a lot to be desired in stereo. I do not say this to start another feud. It is my opinion and as long as I am spending my $ that is all that matters to me. There is a multitude of others who will totally disagree and I hold no animosity. They should spend their $ on their choice of receiver also. I still enjoy reading others feelings toward the various brands. Things change and if I close my ears I may miss out on something wonderful. When I started reading this site it was all Denon or HK. It is refreshing to know that there are other preferences even if I do not always agree. I do think that if you recommend something then you should list the faults as well as the attributes. As for power ratings or other published specs: These have less meaning than in the past. Distortion and S/N noise is so low that I doubt it has enough adverse effect on the sound to notice. Many powerful receivers, even those that meet or excede their published ratings still do not sound as good to me as the ones with less power. Features can be overkill. I still give priority to sound quality. How many of you actually want a receiver because it is upgradable? I only recall three receivers that have had upgrades available and I have serious doubts that the upgrades were worth the cost. I hope that I have not offended anyone and I apologize if I have rambled too much but I felt compelled to express my feelings. This is such a fun and exciting hobby (also expensive). If we all shared the same feelings there would only be one brand and this would no longer be fun. Read and enjoy or go elsewhere. |
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Al Holland | After all that I said I forgot something. There are other forums that are more biased than this one. Ask a question about brand x, y, or z sub. The automatic response is that SVS or HSU is the only sub to be considered. They shake pictures off the wall or mave the foundation of your house. This may be true but do they produce clean and undistorted bass. How do they perform if you do not crank them to insane levels? I have found many subs that will do all of this but they sounded terrible. The perfect example is the subs in many automobiles that travel on my street. I wish that SVS or HSU was available locally so that I could audition. |
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Brand Neutral, Open Minded, & Undecided | Thanks Al for the well-expressed post. |
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John A. | JonMoon, Johnny, Don, Brand Neutral etc., Al, Excellent. I agree with all these very civilized views and values. I also agreed with BN's original post as Anon, and understood "sub-divide the receiver forum" was fun and rhetorical. But look, the point remains - this forum is unmoderated. What you read here is just what people have taken the time and trouble to write. That's all it is. That makes it quite valuable. When someone takes it upon themselves to try to achieve "balance" we will no longer get what people really think. BN, thanks for coming out of the closet. When you come back and tell us what you bought (please do!) your new name will be difficult to keep if you have any opinions to put back in (please do!). I have some recommendations if you are interested... Best wishes to all all. What a fun thread. Oh BTW, I've never heard of Circuit City or Best Buy, except on this forum. If I have an extra agenda re balance it is to get a bit away from an exclusively US perspective, much as I like the place. I am persuaded by wise recommendations by e.g. Hawk of e.g. Outlaw, Magnepan, Axiom, etc., but these makers are not really an option for the rest of the World. Maybe they should do something about that. Another weakness of some hi-fi people is exclusivity. NAD is actually not only blo*dy good (warning: opinion; also moderated for "profanity"!) but also international (fact). They are not in every store, true, but they dropped the flag-waving years ago, thank goodness. In that sense they are fairly mass-market. Best regards, again. |
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elitefan | ANON, You must have a lot of time on your hands to spend so much of it taking comments of mine OUT OF CONTEXT to make your silly, smartaleck point. Most of us here are trying to help people make choices because some of us actually are asked to. When you have somehting worthwhile to contribute you are welcome as well, if you wish. |
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Brand Neutral, Open Minded, & Undecided | Sorry, Elitefan, but I find many of your posts misleading when not rude. The snippets from your comments are hardly "OUT OF CONTEXT," although such a claim is a common device to try to excuse inconsiderate or irrational behavior. Your "help" is all well and good, so long as someone doesn't consider a receiver brand you have a personal dislike for. Otherwise, they should prepare to be insulted. Just a friendly observation. Perhaps you consider such posts to be "worthwhile contributions." I don't. And if my point were "silly," you wouldn't see so many gripe threads about rude bias in these forums. Again, like what you like, state your preference, justify it when you can for the benefit of the unlearned, and make your recommendations, but please try to tone down the illogical bashing of other worthy products and resist the urge to demean those who happen to prefer a receiver you would never consider owning. By the way, I'm seriously considering the RX-V2400 after the very positive review in Home Theater Magazine. You may insult my poor taste and wax-clogged ears now if you'd like. ("It's your money you're flushing down the toilet, so do whatever you want," "Yamaha's power supplies are made of Play-Doh," etc. etc.) |
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John A. | "....Otherwise, they should prepare to be insulted. Just a friendly observation." With friends like that... Better bash a receiver brand than a person. Right, Brand Neutral, please share with us what you like about that review. I mean that. It is great to know you have finally found the facts. |
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elitefan | JohnA, Sorry to say but Brand has missed the point as have so many others it seems. This forum is for offering honest opinions about a variety of products. That is all I have ever done and have not initiated any insults and the above comments in fact were taken out of context and that is a valid point to recognize. The power specs of the Yamaha are not something I made up. They are what was printed in HT and I would trust they can do a valid bench test. Please believe I am not trying to bash Yamaha. My intention is only to point out how misleading and outright false their claim is on this units[and most others] power rating. I think it's fine if someone chooses a Yamaha if pared with the right speakers and the buyer is aware of what they are buying. Yamaha is certainly not the only ones guilty of this hype and we all should be upset that anyone can get away with this. You should know I am a former Yamaha lover and up until about 8-10 years ago that's what I always used for an amp. I am just very disappointed in their products of the digital era. I am sorry to anyone who has felt I have insulted them. it's not my intention but when I am attacked I will defend myself. That I will never apologize for. My statements are based on many years of experience with many brands of A/V products and on measured test results when applicable. It would be nice if the personal attacks could be stopped and I will do my best but there are some posters who obviously are only on this board to provoke others. I am not one of those. I genuinely want to help people when I can and like I have done in my own community for the past many years. Let's all just take a deep breath and try to help each other instead of run each other down. After all, this stuff is supposed to be fun. |
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John A. | elitefan, I am with you all the way. The quote was from Brand N, not from you. I have read many of your posts, they are great. And interesting. Brand N just hasn't twigged that offering an opinion is giving something. There are some guys here whose trick to to insult everybody so no one will take anybody seriously. Then they are safe from the terrible fact that they have nothing to say. Or no courage to risk being diagreed with. Usually they prefer to be "Anonymous". Not you, friend. Not me. Above all of us, not Hawk. Have you seen that appalling thread? Back to the subject. I don't quite know where you're coming from, except the name, and you say some good things. Pioneer had a very highly rated, budget-but-audiophile, integrated stereo amp some years ago. I have only just come back to audio, with HT. I never even considered Pioneer, starting from my location. Is there a thread where I can start from the beginning on "Pioneer Elite"? And is this where you get your name? I really do hope Brand N comes back with something positive. I predict he can't take criticism, prefers giving it. I am truly interested to learn about the Yamaha RX-V2400. I nearly bought one, or something close. I forget the model number. |
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Kojak CEE | I am the appointed sage of home theater and consumer electronics. I have been chosen by the people because of my knowledge and experience. I also hold the coveted CEE(Certified Electronics Expert)designation. The claim made by the original poster is 110% accurate and true. There is a clown brigade that believes they are the founding fathers of consumer electronics that pollute this great board. Elitefan,Hawk,JohnnyA to name three. NAD,Pioneer Elite are great, all else sucks. When called on it, they react as predictably as a dog does when he sees a fire hydrant. Their self-aggrandizing writings mean little to the average person trying to use this forum for it's intended purpose. The average person has to wade through mounds of fluff and wordy bullsh*t to get an answer to a simple question such as: What receivers would one recommend for not more then $400? The immediate answers from the clown princes are: spend more,buy NAD, buy Pioneer Elite and connect your system with Monster Cable. My recommendations are as follows: go to the local A/V dealership. Milk the saleshack for what little knowledge he has. Select the model you like in your price range. Go home and print out the best price you can find on the internet and return and see if the saleshack at the high end dealer will match. He won't so laugh in his face leave(spit on their floor on the way out...hawk up a nice green Winter loogy)and order it online. Authorized dealerships and warranty stuff is a bunch of hype. The exception to that is of course NAD, you will need warranty service in short order for those unreliable POS. Look at Kenwood,Sherwood,Onkyo,Yamaha,Denon,Pioneer,JVC,Panasonic. Buy them online and do not be afraid to buy a receiver at Costco. They now carry some decent ones but their buyers change the product line every few months so the choices vary. This can be a good thing. The important thing to remember is that many of these guys on this forum have an agenda and it usually includes a high opinion of themselves and their personal choices. They have yet to acknowledge their mental problems let alone seek help and medication. Few of them leave their dusty,dingy hovels to breath fresh air and see real sunlight and smell the wonder of Mother Ocean. I am the spokesperson of the masses. I am the appointed sage of consumer electronics. Ignore the ones I mentioned and you will be better off. Pray that they seek the help they need. Power to the people! Kojak CEE |
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NotBrandPartial | expert: pronounced ex spurt. ex is a has been - spurt is an annoying drip. |
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Anonymous | Kojak, First of all, there is no such thing as a CEE. I asked a friend of mine who works at a high end store and he has never heard of it. So you my friend are full of sh*t. Secondly, to quote the master "The important thing to remember is that many of these guys on this forum have an agenda and it usually includes a high opinion of themselves and their personal choices". High opinion of themselves? The only one here who has a high opinion of themself is you. You are very hypocritical, and, if I may say so, you are a huge a*shole. Get the f*ck off here and go back to your reading homework. |
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Anonymous | like i said before DON'T FEED THE TROLL....IGNORE HER AND SHE WILL GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Ash Lad | Even better, die. She feeds on attention. |
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Brand Neutral, Open Minded, and Undecided | "I really do hope Brand N comes back with something positive. I predict he can't take criticism, prefers giving it." Um, am I being criticized? I mentioned I have nothing of real value to add as far as advice goes. My ego has no problem admitting that. I know little about receivers and came to this board seeking opinions, advice, and facts. What I found is a lot of brand-biased flaming. Strong opinions are great and are welcomed. But let's put some rational thought behind these comments for those of us who are new to the board. If you are criticizing my criticism, I can live with that. I've said nothing rude, nor personally attacked anyone. As for taking quotes "out of context," I would love to know how any of those I included are in fact "out of context" and what exactly the real intention was. I'm not trying to mix it up with any particular individual here, but hey, at least recognize when you are being rude and/or condescending to others on the board. |
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John A. | BN, "But let's put some rational thought behind these comments for those of us who are new to the board". I try. So do others. What others post is beyond my control. What they post is beyond mine. That is the nature of this forum. There is not much point in any of us complaining about that. I suppose we can learn something about human nature, as well as audio. At the moment I am reluctant to believe that humans can behave in the some of the ways indicated here. Not you. Scepticism is great. Your mistake, if I may say so, is to think there is some sort of exclusive group, and somone can defend and account for its behaviour. There isn't; the forum is not moderated. Try to post back. |
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Brand Neutral, Open Minded, and Undecided | Hey John, I'm not griping about each and every post on the board. Nor am I saying any one individual posts garbage exclusively. There is a lot of good info here, a lot of friendly advice and conversation. But increasingly found in the mix is an intolerance for anything but Brand X or Brand Y and I just don't see how that's helpful to anyone. And that's been my point from the beginning. As far as an exclusive group on the board, yes, there does seem to be a core group who tend to respond to most posts (generously so) and that's the way most boards are. And that's great. BUT at the same time realize that the core group tends to form a defensive circle anytime there is an opposing opinion. Heaven help you if you lock horns with one of the "regulars," as you will often be insulted, belittled, or told to go elsewhere (an odd directive for a public, unmoderated board). Some posters deserve to be abused as they drop flame-bait, launch rude personal attacks or generally try to incite argument for no reason. Unfortunately those pathetic souls also tend to frequent these forums for the lack of anything better to do. But others are genuinely looking for advice and information, and at times dare post an opposing point of view. To their peril. Again, these are friendly observations. No animosity here, no personal attacks (despite some of the claims in this thread). If one ever finds oneself constantly butting heads with other forum members, perhaps one should look inward for a possible reason. Peace. |
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John A. | BN, Thanks. I agree with all you write in that last post, except the defensive circle bit. I have been reading and posting here for some months and have never detected it. Sometimes, if I think someone has been misunderstood or misrepresented, I will say so. You get to recognise the regulars and can sometimes predict their views. There is absolutely no conspiracy, not from regular names, at least. Any one is free to post here. And anyone does, as we have seen. I know that some good people just get tired of all the insults and go away. I post opposing views quite a lot. They sometimes go unanswered. That is understandable. I've had flames and mild abuse on occasion. You don't learn much from insults. You do learn from disagreement, if people take trouble to give reasons. You began by characaturing a number of regular contributors. That's OK. Those count as "personal attacks", really, but mild ones, so never mind. But don't be surprised if those people honestly feel they are misrepresented, and go on to defend and restate their positions. Did you really expect people to say "Yes, I am biased, I will stop saying what I think"? It is the people who hurl in insults and then feel good about the misunderstandings they generate who are wasting everyone's time. Yamaha RX-V2400 (December 4). Is the review on the internet? What did you like about it? You are safe from me, I have never heard one! Peace, yes. But not at any price. Best. |
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New member Username: John_aPost Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 | Further to my posts above, especially Dec. 3, clearly this forum is now moderated. |
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New member Username: JohnnyPost Number: 2 Registered: 12-2003 | John, Yes, clearly some of the trolls that have infested the forum lately have caused a change. I for one am glad...if nothing else, we at least know who is who now. |
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New member Username: John_aPost Number: 3 Registered: 12-2003 | Johnny, Good to read your comment. I have to admit my only pseudonym here, ever, was Ash Lad (Dec 7). He was a guy who knew all about trolls. His other trick was to keep them talking until sunrise, as Tolkein knew (to see them in stone, get the extended edition of TFOTR). I suspect things will be more constructive here now since your username cannot be stolen even if your "real" one is used by someone else. For this reason I encourage regular, serious posters to register. This tends towards the "circle" of BN, of course, but what can you do? Also, if you get spammed, you can easily report it. If we hear again e.g. from CEE he will either have no username and can be ignored, or will be identifiable, and accountable for views expressed. He will find this a challenge, I know. I am testing the system... |
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New member Username: BeavisPost Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 | As a lurker here I found this to be an interesting post... I've seen this argument erupt on almost every other forum I read. On the Dirtbike forums, it's Yamaha v.s. Honda v.s Suzuki... etc.. On the Corvette forum, it's Z06 owners versus the world, looking for some kind of respect from a Ferrari owner who could care less. We won't even go into the console gaming or PC forums... However, I must say that this time around, most everybody was adult about it and it made for a good discussion. Most times this turns into a degenerated flame fest and the fact that this one didn't speaks volumes about this forum and how it really is one of the better ones on the net. Now... what sub was it that is the best? (just kidding) |
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New member Username: TimPost Number: 2 Registered: 12-2003 | Travis is spot on. On other forums (on totally different subjects), this sort of discussion has lead to splinter groups, flaming, the "core group" really banding together, people being banned, or occasionally, a discussion of the rules for posting. I am pleased to see that we have had a civilised, at times heated (not a bad thing), and generally constructive discussion here. Hopefully, those who have read this thread will rememebr the two key points that have emerged: 1. Almost everything you read here is a subjective opinion. 2. If you ask for comment on Brand X and Brand Y, you will probably also receive comments on Brands A and B. 3. Try to justify your opinion and avoid making it sound like a declaration of fact. With regard to point 2, for many newbies (and I count myself as such), this is probably helpful. For example, I would have discounted a speaker brand called "Now Hear This" because it is such a tacky sales-oriented name - surely they can't be serious players. But Hawk rates them, so I will take a look next time. Equally, I had never heard of NAD, so they were never in my shortlist either (sorry, NAD, but I'd already bought my receiver when I found this forum). |
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New member Username: TimPost Number: 3 Registered: 12-2003 | Er, there are *three* key points to remember: Subjective opinions Comments on all brands Justify And a fanatical devotion to the Pope Four - there are FOUR key points.... |
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New member Username: John_aPost Number: 8 Registered: 12-2003 | Nice you pick this up again, but NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: opinions, comments, justifications, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, ...and nice red uniforms |
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CAS Unregistered guest | How old are you all? Just browsing the home theater boards and I think I'll pass this one up... |
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New member Username: John_aPost Number: 38 Registered: 12-2003 | CAS, Thanks. |
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DIYHTGUY Unregistered guest | Just stumbled in from a link and I'll pass on this site too. It is pretty bad in here based upon all the posts I got a chance to read. I hope you guys work everything out though, have a wonderful new year. |
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