Power cord effect
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Bronze Member Username: JbrealtyPost Number: 15 Registered: May-08 | Would a power cord make a notable difference on this CDP? Or just save up for a better one? If so which cord do you guys recommend? PS Audio power punch OK? Would the amp also show a notable improvement w a similar power cord upgrade or is it more significant with the CDP? specs: Exposure 2010S Integrated Amplifier Cambridge Audio 640c V2 Monitor Audio Silver RS6 REL T1 Sub Bass System Blue Jeans LC-1 Stereo Audio Cables Canare 4S11 Speaker Cable, Bi-wired |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12762 Registered: May-04 | . What does "notable" mean to you? How good is your hearing and what do you listen for? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7134 Registered: Feb-05 | For me they do...however the difference isn't always an improvement. The van den Hul Mainserver I have with my Rega Apollo opened everything up...better bass, high end resolution and better sounstaging, even imaging improved. Previously I tried other power cords and they did make a difference, however in the end I decided that they were not improvements. |
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Bronze Member Username: JbrealtyPost Number: 16 Registered: May-08 | Notable means noticeable to me  My hearing is excellent. I listen for accuracy, transparency, separation, solid highs, mids, and tight strong accurate bass. I was thinking of some entry level PS audio pwer cables ... do you use aftermarket power cables on your amp too or just cdp? |
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Bronze Member Username: ArturgorniakAllentown, PA US Post Number: 27 Registered: May-08 | The reason I use aftermarket power cables is simply look driven... I have two Tara Labs Prism that I got cheap on Audiogon just so they look nice on my setup...I think it make sense to get some nice entry level ( cheap) power cords so you can feel good about your system but it is a nonsense to invest $$$$.....remember, it is all about music not accesories!!! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12767 Registered: May-04 | . "Notable means noticeable to me My hearing is excellent. I listen for accuracy, transparency, separation, solid highs, mids, and tight strong accurate bass." Yes, that smiley face says it all. I notice you didn't really state anything about listening to the music. You just said you listen to the reproduced sound of instruments or sound effects or those things extraneous to the performance of the musicians but relative to the audio system. Possibly what I just said doesn't make sense to you but there is large difference between listening "to the music" and listening to the sounds your system makes. What is then noticeable to one listener might be ignored by another with the same system. That makes recommending a power cable difficult and I would, on the face of the matter, say stick with what you own. Spend your money elsewhere. Looking at your other choices in cables I would say you are a believer in cables but not to the extent you wish to spend much cash for cables. If you consider the cables you now own to have made a "noticeable" improvement in the music making capacity of your system, then I would guess the change to a new power cable would also be somewhat "noticeable". You can begin with an inexpensive cable and listen for improvements - most retailers offer trail periods should you not consider the cable to be a "notable" improvement. Or you could try a DIY power cable and spend less money without the benefit of returning the parts for credit should the cable prove to be not that notable. If you wish to pursue power cable "noiticeability", I would call Cambridge and ask for their advice. Power cables are built around different intents and choosing a cable that actually negates what Cambridge has provided will not be of any consequence other than possibly lowering the quality of reproduction. For example, many aftermarket power cables tout their shielding against stray RF and EM interference patterns. What they do not tell you is this shielding almost always results in higher capacitance within the cable. Possiby your component doesn't care whether there is additional capacitance on its incoming power line - but maybe it does. It's better to find out before you spend your money on something that might actually be a step backward in performance. Give Cambridge a call and ask the appropriate questions. Other than that, I would suggest you make certain you have given the needed attention to your components and their installation before you spend any money on a power cable. If the system isn't up to snuff in its environment, then chasing upgrades in power cables will be less than beneficial. 'Cause, as I read your post, you're really just looking for an excuse to buy something but you don't want to spend much money. I would say you should consider what exactly it is you want, where you want it to take your music and then do what is necessary to get to that point. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10432 Registered: Dec-04 | This one is a bit of a bugaboo for me. If power cords make such a difference, then what are you making up for, or replacing? Given the chance, nd I will have a chance soon, I am going to hardwire some stuff and eliminate a lot of potentially noise inducing and messy connectin by wiring direct. And not to a wire-nut connection, but with good Canare cable as far up the line as I can(to the bus). Less cost, no cable issues. I have problems with power cords, as adding multiple questionable points seems disaccordant with purity. But thats just me... |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12768 Registered: May-04 | . Is Canare rated for installation in walls as AC cabling? "If power cords make such a difference, then what are you making up for, or replacing?" There could be lots of things you're making up for. At reasonable price levels not many manufacturers will go the expense of a shielded power cable. Not that this is what you always need nor is it what the equipment might prefer. There are power cables which try to minimize the effects of microphonics in the cable and some that provide different construction techniques to minimze self induced noises. After market power cables are not "voodoo scince" but they are not all the same either. It's not unreasonable to think a better connector on both ends and higher grade dielectric is sufficient reason to swap out power cables. Hard wiring to the mains panel is every bit as extreme and could prove deterimental to the system if you just choose a cable without experimentation. Particularly if you ever want to grab the equipment and run because the house caught fire. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7155 Registered: Feb-05 | Arthur I believe you posted the same response at the Epos and Creek forum and I responded there... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10437 Registered: Dec-04 | If the house caught fire, JV, I would just grab your drunk buttt out of bed. I stand by my hardwiring. And yur Johnny Cash collection. |
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Bronze Member Username: JbrealtyPost Number: 24 Registered: May-08 | I picked up a slightly used The van den Hul Mainserver for a good price ... Ill report back when I get it and let you guys know if it was notable Gonna try vibrapods on my source too ... thanks for the input guys |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7361 Registered: Feb-05 | The Mainserver is for your source only and not a powercord for amps. It's a great power cord, I use it with my Apollo. Don't try Pods and the Mainserver at the same time with the same piece, you'll want to know how each affects the sound. Go one at a time and get used to the sound before you try the other. |
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Bronze Member Username: JbrealtyPost Number: 25 Registered: May-08 | I am going to use these tweaks on my Cambridge CDP/Source .... Ill try em one at a time as you suggest ... good idea ... I was looking for an inexpensive power cord and this one came up for $115 so I figured Id give it a shot ... can always use these tweaks with a CDP upgrade if I decide to go that route down the road |
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Silver Member Username: JawPost Number: 219 Registered: Mar-06 | If not already posted: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/its-done-power-cord-shoot-out-22-power-cords-r eviewed-219202/ Jellyfish - an Economy of Scale: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/bizzyb/ILJPOWER.html If you like Blade Runner, gotta love Jellyfish. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1428 Registered: Feb-07 | I remember when I bought my CA 640C the salesguy suggested I upgrade the power cable. I thought that odd. OK, maybe not odd... probably a big markup. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 110 Registered: Jun-08 | I've been considering power cords and have been thinking like Nuck. Here's my reasoning and I welcome challenges: I've got builder grade electrical wiring in my 8 year old house from my panel to the outlet that my Monster power bar is plugged into, into which my amp and components are plugged. I don't have power conditioning but only surge protection. The power to the outlet would be a certain "x" grade, which goes to my power bar that if anything would reduce the quality or voltage. How then can a power cord from the power bar to the amp improve the juice. I would think the most it could do is stop it from getting worse but not improve on it i.e. it could shield additional contamination but not increase the voltage or clear up the power coming out of the bar. Thoughts? So if I was to use the same quality wire that is in my walls from the power bar to the component/amp would that not be as good as it gets - excluding some strange source of interference that could possibly come into play between the power bar and connection to the source? In short, would not the quality of the power be limited by the weakest link i.e. the wire in the walls, the standard outlet etc. This is leaving power conditioning out of the picture. is there some science to this? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10797 Registered: Dec-04 | George, just for a test, try plugging your amps straight into tje wall, as opposed to the power bar. See if the hiss changes. As well, a few of us have really been happy with straight power as opposed to the power bar/conditioner results. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7828 Registered: Feb-05 | My friend Gabe the OSU engineering student thought that power cords were bunk...then he took one home...he's a changed man. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 115 Registered: Jun-08 | Thanks Art but can Gabe explain why in a scientific manner or is this some kind of voodoo. I can totally understand why speaker cables and interconnects would change and impact sound and signal transfer but as I mentioned with power cables - it's the weakest link, which is the wire in your walls that I would think would limit any improvement with a power cord. If you ran audiophile wire from your box right to your component then I could see why an improvement would be expected. I'm all for a dedicated outlet and line from your box to your system but if you use building standard electrical wire then it is limited. Looking for your thoughts. With all our brain power and experience, I would think we could get to the bottom of this, eh? |
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Bronze Member Username: ArturgorniakAllentown, PA US Post Number: 32 Registered: May-08 | I think we all should start listening to music instead of spending time analyzing differences between power cables. I would challenge anybody in double blind test to hear the difference between power cords and as a mater of fact I did locally and results were very random...........remember it is all about music not about autosuggestion!!!!! If I Paid $$$$$ it must be good!!!!! nonsense! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7829 Registered: Feb-05 | We do listen to music Arthur...try a little shut the f u c k up and read our music threads...how's that. I've seen you on other forums crawling out from under a rock everytime power cords are mentioned...get a life. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7830 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh and BTW the power cord my friend tried was a home brew from a another friend of his...no big bucks there. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7831 Registered: Feb-05 | "Thanks Art but can Gabe explain why in a scientific manner or is this some kind of voodoo." I don't know George and frankly I don't care...if he explained it to me it would go in one ear and out the other. All I care about is the sound. Power cords often make a difference and very often it isn't a good difference however when it is a good difference the change is like listening a new and improved component. I've tried power cords from Analysis Plus, Cardas, Kimber, Signal, van den Hul and others. I relly like the Kimber and van den Hul. The Analysis Plus did not work in my system but I could see how it might give improvements in systems whose design philosophies are different...like Classe and Simaudio. The Cardas I just didn't like..very flat and lifeless...however it was a standard power cord for some Sim gear and actually came with with it new. George, for me getting to the bottom of it is simple...do I hear difference...if I do I explore the differences further if not I don't. The science behind it is of no concern to me. I wish you luck on the quest. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7832 Registered: Feb-05 | Let me add that the reason I'm so fond of the vdH and Kimber power cords vs the others that I tried is that they did not alter the signature sound of the component but intead simply enhanced all of it's attributes. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7834 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry Arthur...I got carried (only slightly) away but I would read our music threads before assumimng that we don't love music first. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10804 Registered: Dec-04 | The great cord discontent... Thanks for kicking Arthurs asssss, Art, you beat me to it. Always the well eared gent. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7837 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks Nuck...I lost my composure for a moment...lol! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1449 Registered: Feb-07 | It happens Art. For someone who professes not to care about, I find it interesting that Arthur lists the cables he uses in his profile. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10816 Registered: Dec-04 | Let's kick his asssss with some David Bowie! Putting out fire.. And a 1 and a 2 and a |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7839 Registered: Feb-05 | Just kiddin' David I really wasn't losing my composure...I've replied to ole' Art before. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10819 Registered: Dec-04 | Back to China Girl then... |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 53 Registered: Mar-08 | Having not really experimented with power cords, I will accept that if you hear a difference then that's all that matters. That being said, I think there is some room for the mind to play tricks on you relative to what you think you hear and certainly other components in the system could totally mask any improvements that a better power cord might be providing - but lets just assume that there is a discernable difference in what someone with good ears can hear between two power cables in a blind test. I was interested in Jan Vigne eariler comment: "there is large difference between listening "to the music" and listening to the sounds your system makes." I think what he might be saying is that there may be a difference in the sound, but which is actually 'better' depends on what you like - perhaps you like one sound more than the other - but perhaps if you want the sound to reflect how the recording really 'sounded', then the one you like less could be the more 'accurate'. He didn't quite get to saying whether "better" power cables or power conditioning lead to one particular result or other. What kind of differences do you guys hear? In my system, upgrading componentry (not cabling) has stepwise lead to noticable improvements in sound. I believe my DAC is still my limiting factor so that's where my next purchase is going. And when I get around to buying the CI Audio VDA-2 that I'm looking at, I am going to buy the upgraded VAC-1 power supply made for it. After that, I'm probably going to be looking at speaker placement and room conditioning as the next most important factor to upgrade. Otherwise, I'm still running with out of the box power cords, Home Depot DIY speaker cables, and relatively budget interconnects (my amp's integrated at least) - and am well below the 10% of system cost on cabling and jamming to the grove that comes out my speakers. Rock on! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1664 Registered: Feb-07 | Good post Rick. I believe that interconnects and speaker cables can make a difference in a system. I have a harder time believing that a power cord can make a difference. Sure, if you buy an expensive power cable, that short distance between your component and outlet will be high quality, but all that wire in your house from your panel to the outlet is still 14/2 wire, and all that wire from the utility company to your panel is still the same old cable. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 54 Registered: Mar-08 | Ok so if we're back to engineering and physics and not just how it sounds, lets talk about possibilities... Low frequency signals drive a lot of power into a speaker and require a lot of current. This creates a pretty dynamic load on the DC rails in the power amp and the power supply has to deal with that. If it is ideal, it should have enough regulation to feed whatever is needed and keep the rails solid. AC feeding your power supply is 60 Hz so its has a lot of energy available around the peaks of the cycle, but has to hold its own during the down part of the cycle. Some power supplies are better at this than others (like power supplies that have power factor correction built in or high frequency switching power supplies). In a discussion I had with Jeff Rowlands about their power factor corrected PS on their new gear, he said that it had better base extension. He seemed to think the power cord they supplied with their amp worked just fine. I believe the power factor correction circuitry does a better job of storing up the energy needed for the dynamic current loads. I've sometimes wondered whether just hanging a really big capacitor over the DC rails would have a generally positive effect - might be nice if gear had the rails output on the back to let you apply an external capacitor that might not otherwise fit in your average sized component box. On lesser power supplies, I believe some of the dynamic AC load gets coupled back into the line cord, that it's at least audio level frequencies and that the impediences of the line cord might have some affect on what you can pull through it dynamically - in otherwords, it can act a bit like an inductor and block dynamic current flow. At audio frequencies, I'm not quite sure that a copper wire is going to have much of a reactive impediance. And even if the power cord does have better (or worse!!) characteristics, the load at the wall just feeds into the 14 gauge wire running through your house. So like you, I'm sceptical but have had no real listening experience to offer an informed opinion. But if any of the above plays, the line cord might have some impact on the base response of some systems and that would do a lot to affect the perceived spectrum of sound for better or worse. Maybe we should go back to having EQs in our systems and they could perform functions that emulate the effect of various power cords or extend your frequency response as far as you like (but now that's boarding on audio heresy - or maybe you just have to call it room compensation to be trendy). Gotta love this hobby! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11045 Registered: Dec-04 | Just open the box and run wall power 14/2 soldered onto the incoming mains of the amp and have done with it. A Ferrari in a raffic jam is still stuck. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11046 Registered: Dec-04 | Just open the box and run wall power 14/2 soldered onto the incoming mains of the amp and have done with it. A Ferrari in a raffic jam is still stuck. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11048 Registered: Dec-04 | Don't make me tell you again... oops! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1667 Registered: Feb-07 | Lol... just make sure you switch the breaker off first. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7981 Registered: Feb-05 | Once you hook up the juice directly...remember to use a good power cord...open the door and let the good juice in...had to! |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 55 Registered: Mar-08 | And it's always a good idea to make sure all the electrons spin the right way. The ones with top spin should go to the terminal labeled +. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 56 Registered: Mar-08 | Hi JAW, Thanks for the references - they were helpful - at least I see that the source line cord seems to be the focus more than the amp line cord - that throws my thoughts in a much different direction - still sceptical and confused on a different level. |
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Silver Member Username: FunkmeisterPost Number: 104 Registered: Nov-07 | Notable? Probably not in most cases. There are exceptions, however. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 366 Registered: Jul-07 | To the original question, and for what it's worth, upgrading your cdp is likely a better bang-for-the-buck option than power cables in your case. Cables IMO make a difference, but to me you have to be in the right ballpark first, before change seats matters much. If you've almost got what you want, then cable experimentation might make some sense. But if you're looking for a significant improvement in a low-mid tier system, I just don't think power cables are where you'd start....more where you'd finish. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11056 Registered: Dec-04 | That seems about right to me as well, chris. Hi again, BTW. |
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Silver Member Username: JawPost Number: 222 Registered: Mar-06 | FWIW, still like David Mitchell's point about 12 posts up - All That Wire from the Utility Company - to my system. That's a scary thought. Seriously, makes sense me. What happens when Sparky Griswald zaps up his Christmas lights? |
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Silver Member Username: JawPost Number: 223 Registered: Mar-06 | What happens if I run my system from solar panels in my backyard? |
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Silver Member Username: JawPost Number: 224 Registered: Mar-06 | DM? you started all of this. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8006 Registered: Feb-05 | In the end the only thing that matters is if there is a difference in the sound and can you hear it. What doesn't matter is if you think you ought to hear a difference or not. If there is a difference and you can hear it then you have choices at that point. If not, only one choice seems reasonable. Regardless of the utility company's role I hear significant differences between many power cords and spend my money accordingly... Simple...put your money where you think it belongs and on things that enhance your experience with the recorded arts. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1679 Registered: Feb-07 | I think if you introduce a piece of gear and it sounds good to you, then it was worth the cost. Sometimes even the placebo effect is worth the price of admission. |
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Silver Member Username: JawPost Number: 225 Registered: Mar-06 | bourbon and psyco-acoustics (age, gender, personality and a bunch of other stuff) probably count, too. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1682 Registered: Feb-07 | Yup, bourbon helps. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1505 Registered: May-06 | My friend Mr. Nuck introduced me to another friend, Johnny Walker. Sort of reminds me of a song. Black tonight! |
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