Are aftermarket power cords a crock?

 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 25
Registered: Dec-05
It's funny how this accessory market just pretty much invented itself in the last few years... before that there was no such thing.

I have long thought it bogus, given that:

1) Decent components come with decent enough power cords - think enough to pass the current necessary (power amps) and with decent connectors.

2) Replacing a power cord is just replacing the last few feet of the powerline - you've still got many feet of (lousy???) wiring from the socket to the transformer!!

Now that I've got a set of $2700 tube monoblocks, though, I'm wondering if I'm getting everything out of them. However, there's no way for me to "audition" aftermarket cords (that even sounds silly to me) with no moneyback guarantee.

Thoughts?? Does it really make a difference?

 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7190
Registered: May-04


It can. It depends on too many factors to make a blanket statement one way or the other. There are several companies that will allow an audition or you can try the lower cost alternative of DIY. You'll never know unless you listen.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 26
Registered: Dec-05
Funny you mentioned DIY - are you familiar with this company:

www.vhaudio.com

?

I'd heard awesome things about them and then I found out that they (he) is located just a few miles from me! (In Waukesha, WI.)
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7199
Registered: May-04


Never heard of them/him. It's worth talking to him though.
 

New member
Username: Nickpadovani

Newnan, GA USA

Post Number: 4
Registered: Jan-06
The amps themselves will come with power cord sufficient to get everything out of them from the factory. Weather your power in your house will cause interference or your wiring in your house is good enough is a different story. Changing the power cord on the amp itself will not do much, but using a power filter and/or testing the wire in your house's ability to carry enough current might make a difference.
 

Silver Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 415
Registered: Feb-05
Paul: I took a look at that site, most of their products look decent, WBT and Wattgate are highly regarded amoung the 'audiophile" crowd. There are a few items that appear to be "snakeoil" in nature,particulary the "CD Demagnetizer". Come on, it is impossible for a CD to be magnetized or demagnetized, they are made from plastic and aluminum mylar,no iron or nickel whatsoever. Over $300 for this device-BS! I may call them and inquire how the label side of a cd which is non-metallic paint can be demagnetized, I think their explanition may be interesting,worth a laugh that is! Their entry model cables are reasonable, I might give them a shot if I had a more "upscale" system than I currently own. Their high end interconnects,however are terribly overpriced and comparable cables, that are probably just as good if not better are available from Tributaries and Nordost for hundreds less. As far as power cords go these aren't expensive but are a waste of money if you have a mere receiver based system. I'm looking at a tube amp for a 2 channel system. I may possibly upgrade the AC cord of what I choose, but I will construct one myself. I won't deny the effects,and possible benefits of Cryogenic treatment of metals, but this can be expensive.
 

New member
Username: Ravbains

Post Number: 4
Registered: Mar-06
Hi Paul,

I don't doubt that expensive power cords can make a difference to the sound of individual components, and the system as a whole.

But for me that misses the point somewhat. Some of these aftermarket cords are ridiculously priced.

If I had $600-800 spare, I would rather put this money towards the cost of an upgrade to my actual components, that for me would make a bigger improvement to the overall sound.

If you are interested in the effects of mains cables in a modestly priced system, then I advise to make your own cables. Supra LoRad is an relatively affordable screened mains cable, which offers a real lift over stock manufacturer supplied cables, without going totally crazy!!!

Nordost Valhalla (AC cable) and the like, are for people with $150,000 systems, who have the best components and are looking for somewhere else to make an improvement.

ciao
Rav
 

New member
Username: Ravbains

Post Number: 5
Registered: Mar-06
Hi Paul,

one further thought, I agree totally with your point about lousy wiring in the house.

If you really want to do things properly you don't need to waste big dollars on a Nordost Valhalla/whatever, just hire an electrical contractor to install a dedicated AC spur, and dedicated earth spike in the garden for your hifi.
This will make a real improvement to your system, and won't involve any crazy pseudo science!!

Also you could investigate making your own power cords using solid core mains twin and earth, but watch out for the un-insulated earth conductor when terminating the cable on to the plug and the IEC connector, use suitable insulated sleeving.

If you are serious about mains, then having a dedicated spur is the way to go....
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1633
Registered: Dec-04
You are so correct, Ravinder.
 

Gold Member
Username: Project6

Post Number: 7113
Registered: Dec-03
Nice tip.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 1273
Registered: Sep-04
Paul,

Ravinder is bang on the money here. A separate spur will help signficantly, especially if it's higher rated than the usual electricity mains. Here in the UK, the usual is to have a ring main rated at 16 amps or so. A common spur is a 30amp spur. The reason it's common is it's the same type of spur as is laid down for a cooker point in the kitchen. It also works very well. Some people go crazy with spurs having both very highly specified spurs (60 amp with a 10mm2 cable) as well as mutiple spurs. There are pros and cons to the multiple spur option.

The pros are that it a multiple spur installation can power different components with cleaner juice and therefore you get better delivery to the components. The detractors claim that it's not as good an earthing arrangement. Earthing is one of the most important facets of building HiFi systems. If the various components of a system have different earth points, there can be a current between their earth points causing a hum. This happens quite often and is the most common cause of hum, so by separating the earths by having multiple dedicated spurs there's more of a chance for an earth loop causing noise and hum.

I'm in two minds about which is right but one thing's for certain - a separate spur is one of the most effective ways of improving a decent system for sensible money.

As to your question, aftermarket power cords do make a difference. In the same way as different brands of amp sound different, power cords can make a difference (yes, really). Therefore, the power cord can get it wrong just as much as getting it right and you should audition before you buy. I also have concerns about the quality of some of these cords so try to ensure that the cord isn't made by the proverbial Ted in his shed since quality issues in power cords could cause fire and loss of life.

Regards,
Frank.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1757
Registered: Dec-04
Frank, I just can't see it.
Unless someone uses a 10mm solid wire as a conductor.
A stranded 7-twist, well insulated conductor with zero loss should transmit the 120 or 220 to the load just fine.
Of course the earth must be stranded as well.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 142
Registered: Dec-05
I ended up buying a set of PS Audio cords - the cheapest - about $60 each. With careful auditioning, I noticed a difference on the source (CDP) but nowhere else. But, not a ton of money spent. I expected to get the most benefit on the power amps but I could detect nothing, even playing at very high levels. I thought the giant transformers on those tube monos might crave more current than the stock cords provide, but it didn't seem to be the case.

I already had a power conditioner. I never doubted the value of those - no way.

I have a single 15A line for everything. Just the way the house was built. I probably should have had 20A, but oh well.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1767
Registered: Dec-04
Paul, I can't believe that with all of your gear that you do not have a dedicated circuit, or even an isolation transformer with a ground spike.

I guess insurance is cheap.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 743
Registered: Feb-04
Finished my test trial of a new power cord.

After listening with the new cord installed on the amp for a couple of weeks I reinstalled the stock cord for my listening session. My immediate reaction was that there really wasn't a difference. Then I put the new cord back in and played the same album. Even though I didn't touch the volume knob, the music sounded slightly louder and the bass was punchier. I'm guessing as a result of a lower noise floor.

My conclusion - upgrading the pc provided slight improvement in my system, worth the $70 it costs, but I can't see spending much more on a pc. My 30-day in-home trial is almost up but I don't plan on returning it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1843
Registered: Dec-04
2c, did you put a meter on the load end of the cord, to compare voltage drops?
Also, did you have the volume way up to determine the difference in voltage drop?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8003
Registered: May-04


There is no logical reason that a better power cable will measure a different power drop, when measured in a static situation, than any other cable. The difference, as is often the case with audio equipment, comes during the dynamic situations it faces. As with measuring THD while an amplifier is driving music through a speaker, it is difficult to assess measurements during these fast changing periods.


The better power cable should lower the resistance across the circuit ever so slightly and provide better shielding when a cable is placed in a RF rich environment. Which is exactly the environment most audio cables find themself in today. There may be additional benefits from the construction of the cable, most particularly if you are going from a twin, parallel run to a twisted construction that would lower the noise floor a bit more. Most of these alterations, however, are likely to be at or below the limits of measuremnet techniques. Does that mean they don't exist?


 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1849
Registered: Dec-04
That is the reson for my volume Q, Jan.

The RF environment is certainly a consideration, but the EMI is more of a factor, I think.

Assuming that Paul has his input power cables and output/patching seperated appropriately, Incoming power cabling should not be an issue.

A shielding sleeve around the ac cables would guarantee no nasties. Grounded at the load end.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8005
Registered: May-04


"Assuming that Paul has his input power cables and output/patching seperated appropriately, Incoming power cabling should not be an issue."


Not sure what you mean here. Firstly, it is difficult to properly dress consumer audio cables as they tend, as in all other aspects of proper system set up, to have no consistency as to how power cables and input/output cables are arranged on the back panel. Nor to where power transformers are located within a piece of equipment. This means there will inevitably be some crossing and subsequent contamination of signal/speaker/power cables/transformer fields no matter how well the system is dressed.


A shielding sleeve may easily be the largest improvement in an upscale power cable. But that would depend on the system, the quality of the AC delivery mechanism and the condition of the existing cables/outlets.


I'm not understanding your question regarding volume. As I read it, it would suggest the voltage drop is relative to the volume level set. That, I would assume, would mean the AC voltage input is relative to the voltage output of the device under scrutiny, which isn't the case here. Your observation would seem to ignore the benefit of a better power cable when used on a CD/DVD/turntable where "volume" is fixed.



 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1853
Registered: Dec-04
Your observation would seem to ignore the benefit of a better power cable when used on a CD/DVD/turntable where "volume" is fixed.

Yes, indeed, I was focusing on power supply to amplification.
The volume point is intended to mean maximum current consumption, producing max voltage drop.

The cdp etc. will benefit most from a shield sleeve for RF, the amp will benifit most in regards to EMI.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8010
Registered: May-04


"The cdp etc. will benefit most from a shield sleeve for RF, the amp will benifit most in regards to EMI."


Not sure I agree with that statement, but the results of changing to a better pc will most assuredly be system (and listener) dependent.


 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1856
Registered: Dec-04
Not sure I agree with that statement

Jan , are you under the weather?

The low voltage interconnects are most vulnerable to RF interference, the high power mains are most likely to transmit(and receive) EMI.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8011
Registered: May-04


Waaaaait one minute here. Now you've tossed interconnects into the mix. Sure interconnect cables will be susceptible to RFI but that's not what we're discussing here.


The question is whether a power cable will pick up any RF interference which would be carried through the piece of equipment's power supply. The logic of upgraded power cables says, yes, they can and might and often do. Therefore, shielded power cables. This would be a particular problem for someone using a poorly shielded CD/DVD player would want to consider. The conglomeration of RF devices in use in the modern world also makes for a RF rich environment which can contaminate the power cable.


No doubt power cables will generate EMI; but pick up EMI? From where, sir? Dressing power cables should put all cables with similar power usage in a group. This would be a somewhat contained EM field at that point. Within reason one power cable shouldn't be guilty of inducing any stray magnetic field on to another cable when both are conducting the same voltage from the same source. Oh, please, don't tell me someone is spending money on a upgraded power cable and not addressing system set up before hand.



However, as with AC line conditioners/transformers and hospital grade outlets/plugs, I see the most important contribution a better constructed cable can make to the system's sound quality to be from the lower source impedance at the primary connection point.




 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 1279
Registered: Sep-04
Nuck,

I've played with a few power cords and they do make a difference even though they're using standard(ish) plugs etc. The difference can be good and it can be bad depending on the system. It can be subtle and it can be not-so-subtle, again depending on the system. I admit it seems odd. Also, in the case of one particular manufacturer who uses seemingly ordinary cords, aftermarket cords always seem to be detrimental even though they're bigger gauge, shielded etc.

Paul, I've tried a few mains conditioners and haven't found a one that I can give carte blanche. They all have their good bits and bad bits it seems to me. Of course, if you're in an area which suffers from electrical storms then it may be a wise precaution (sadly, in most cases).

Regards,
Frank.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1887
Registered: Dec-04
From proper outlet to amp, I just can't see it, guys.
However, I probably couldn't hear it either.

All taken under consideration, and thank-you all.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 1295
Registered: Sep-04
Nuck,

Seriously, I've heard some sound better and some worse. And I have to say the expensive ones were the ones I didn't like! Thing is, this has been repeatable on several occasions with different kit as well! I don't get it. I can't see it. But then again, I have heard it and generally, with one or two exceptions, I haven't really liked it.

Regards,
Frank.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2121
Registered: Dec-04
Thanks, Frank.
Would these items be plugs on both ends, or hard wired on the (presumably) expensive end?

Cheers!
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 1302
Registered: Sep-04
Plugs - things like Wattgates and the like. Now I've heard good and bad with Wattgates on, so it's not down to the plugs necessarily!

Regards,
Frank.
 

New member
Username: Ben_diss

Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-06
I just ran a new line from my panel to my amp. I ran 8AWG to a 30A twistloc plug. The difference was like night and day. It replaced a shared 16AWG, 30 year old line. No wonder it made a difference. I can't imagine the power cable making any difference if the holdhold wiring is insufficient.

-Ben
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 1304
Registered: Sep-04
Ben,

By that argument, your new spur shouldn't make any difference either, because the likelihood is that the mains coming into your building is older than the original cabling in your house.

Regards,
Frank.
 

New member
Username: Ben_diss

Post Number: 3
Registered: Mar-06
Yes, the mains are old, but they're as thick as my thumb. I suspect each one is 0AWG. My point is that a 14AWG cable, three feet long isn't going to matter if you have 50 feet of 16AWG in the wall being used by various other devices in the house.

-Ben
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ravbains

MelbourneAustralia

Post Number: 66
Registered: Mar-06
Hi I am bringing an old thread back to life!!!

I have been undertaking numerous DIY activities, both under the hood, and outside on the cable frontier.

These DIY endevours have been an insightful journey indeed.

I just this evening tried a mains cable on my AVi amp, the cable is a DIY one, and makes use of solid core copper conductors. Similar to the installation cables used in the house itself. The cable made a massive difference to my system. I never would have believed unless I had seen it for myself.

I don't have a dedicated mains spur in my current house in Aus, as I did back in the UK. My personal experience in terms of a dedicated spur related to the quietude of the system, and also the dynamics. The dynamics were enhanced due to the lowered noise floor.

But tonight using the solid core mains cable, I noticed one set of improvements which I will call the "hifi" ones i.e. improved bass weight, enlarged soundstage, and also smoother tonality. But there is a second set of improvements which relate to musicality. The system seems to have totally gelled. There is much smoother flow and progression to the music, and when relevant a greater sense of urgency. All the various musical strands seem to have aligned and work together now. Previously the system was highly detailed, but detail was rather thrust at the listener (it was pleasingly hifi), but now with this solid core mains cable the details seem organically integrated.

I have always preferred solid core speaker cables, but recent experiments with solid core interconnects have proved disapppointing.

From what I have learnt I have the following gross generalisms from my DIY work.

o Where large currents are involved, solid core is more to my taste, it provides greater focus (eliminates splashiness), a smoother tonality and if done right a weightier sound. So I like solid core for speaker cable, and mains leads.

o Where interconnects are concerned, there are no large currents. You are dealing with a voltage transfer, so no large currents. What seems to be important with an interconnect is the quality of the dielectric, and the conductivity of the wires themselves. (Since there is not much current, it leads me to believe that in high current applications, solid cores superiority is due to simplified/more uniform magenetic fields which arise when there are large rates of change in current, of course this is just another of one of my half baked theories....)

Anyhows, my heavily modded Sony XA-5ES, the AVi and my humble NAD speakers are really singing at the moment.

So I am having lots of fun, learning heaps, and really enjoying the music also. All this without maxing out the credit card either!!!!!

cheers
Rav
 

Bronze Member
Username: Musicluvr

Post Number: 61
Registered: Apr-05
Rav,

Your descriptions of the effect of replacing your mains cable are very interesting in that they closely parallel my own experience.
Some time ago I replaced the original power cable on my NAD C372 with a DIY cable made up of 3 lengths of 10 guage "AMP King" cable
and Marinco plugs from Parts Express. I got an improvement in sound quality almost exactly as you describe. Better bass, wider
soundstage, and what you describe as "smoother tonality". I interpreted this as a reduction in what I believed was "CD harshness".
I once thought I would just have to put up with that negative characteristic of CD playback compared to an analog vinyl source.

Last week I replaced the power cable on my NAD C542 player. This was a larger undertaking compared to the C372 which has an IEC
socket whereas the CD player had a fixed 16 guage power cord. The CD player required a bit of surgery on the back panel and some
internal soldering to fix the new cable in place. I've changed my cable preference to a DIY recipe consisting of 12 guage outdoor
extension cord with Marinco or Wattgate plugs. I found it well worth the effort as the improvement was immediately apparent.
In short, the improvements were more of the same. Even better bass, more detail, smoother more refined top end, and a thoroughly
enveloping soundstage. Best of all, I don't even hear a hint of the CD harshness that I've been listening to for years.

Let me add that until I actually heard improvements in sound quality from swapping cables, I was skeptical that the effects
existed. After hearing the differences, there is little doubt in my own mind that the effects are real. I've read through
the product advertisements, web sites, and many audio forums searching for logical explanations for what I hear and I have yet
to come across any consistent, convincing answers. On the other hand, I don't think it is simply coincidence that you and I
independently hear similar effects from changing power cables. At this point, I've pretty much abandoned the search for
explanations and just sit back and enjoy the results.

Finally, here's a link to a Stereophile poll with many opinions and no clear answers.

http://cgi.stereophile.com/cgi-bin/showvote.cgi?396
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ravbains

MelbourneAustralia

Post Number: 67
Registered: Mar-06
Hi ctanaka,

yes totally agree with your post.

I know that cables make a difference. No doubt at all. I just feel that it is important to keep some perspective when it comes to the cost of commercially available cables. Enthusiasts get scalped when it comes to cables, this is one area where the maxim "you get what you pay for" definitely does not apply, its all a big scam.

That is why for my cabling, I generally try to roll my own, as you did too.

Like you also, I cannot effectively pretend to know the answers, and as you mention a lot of the data out there is contradictory.

I have had an IEC socket fitted to my Sony XA-5ES, but this machine was modded by a professional mod shop. Since extensive mechanical mods have been made to this machine to accomodate PSUs for the upgraded clock and discrete output stage. This work is definitely beyond what I can manage at the moment. I have not yet tried a solid core mains cable on the Sony player. Your post gives me some hope of hidden potential here too.

many thanks
Rav
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ravbains

MelbourneAustralia

Post Number: 68
Registered: Mar-06
Hi ctanaka,

were the conductors your were using for your mains cable, solid core?

I just ask, since I have achieved 'nice' results in the past with stranded mains cable, e.g. Supra LoRad 2.5. Mainly a bit more bass, and slightly improved sound-stage.

But it was only when I used solid core conductors did I achieve a profound improvement in the performance of my system.

If you have not yet tried a solid core mains cable, I strongly recommend you give it a go.

I am convinced that to my mind atleast, only solid core, or a "litz" woven individually insulated conductors is the only way to make high current cables.

Regular stranded multi core cables in the speaker cable or mains lead is for me a recipe for a very splashy sounding distortion.

cheers
Rav
 

Silver Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 467
Registered: Feb-05
I've been waiting to respond to this thread for awhile but I,ve been very busy as of late. Powercords for equipment should make a difference,especially if you go from the 18AWG-2 that comes on most equipment here in US down to 12AWG or even 10. This should lower the overall impedence(providing a lower DCR equalivalent) of the AC input portion of the circuit. I'm not sure what you Brits mean by a seperate "AC spur". If you mean a dedicated outlet set for audio then yes I agree this is always a good idea. Also a dedicated "earth spike" was mentioned. I would assume that this meant having the service mains grounded which is also a very good idea and required by law here in the US in any new construction which is to receive electrical service. I don't know about the UK but here in the US and Canada you cannot ground an individual outlet to the earth with a metal rod or spike, this is against code and very dangerous. This also defeats the purpose of a ground which is to send current directly back to the source in the event of a fault condition. There is not a shred of empiricle evidence that this would help out with noise problems anyway. The only way an outlet can be safely grounded to comply with code is to have a seperate conductor, usually bare copper that runs all the way from the outlet to the main breaker box which is earth grounded.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8562
Registered: May-04


It has been discussed on another thread, but in reagrd to the grounding issue; a star grounding point is going to have an effect on the noise problems many audio systems encounter. Star grounding is employed in many high end audio designs to minimize the noise within the circuitry of the equipment. Taking this to a more logical conclusion on a larger scale means having only one ground point for all the AC lines in a service panel. While this seems the only logical way to run cabling, it is not that infrequent to find AC distribution systems with ground planes scattered all around the installation or non-existent dedicated grounds in some cases. So, if you are having an electrician run a dedicated line to your listening room(s), have the technician check for proper grounding of all outlets in the house while they are there. This would be very good advice for anyone living in an older home or one that has been remodeled.


Additionally, there are whole house RFI/EMI filters on the market which will begin removing interference well before that notorious "three foot long cable" running to your equipment. Be aware some of these filters can have a deleterious effect on your sound quality and get recommendations whenever possible before making the investment.




 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 2753
Registered: Dec-04
Eric, ground spikes are not only legal, but encouraged by Ontario Hydro. 2 spikes, 6' deep and 10 feet apart are the norm for new builds, as well as refitting panels.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Musicluvr

Post Number: 66
Registered: Apr-05
Rav,

Sorry it is taken a while to respond. I guess I missed your post.

"were the conductors your were using for your mains cable, solid core?"

I have experimented with 3 types of cable for power cords. All of them with stranded conductors.

1) 10 guage "Sound King" with very thin stranded conductors. The individual strands are hair thin. I don't know the guage of the individual strands, or if it is possible to determine without a micrometer.

2) 14 guage Home Depot Outdoor extension cable. The individual strands on this cable are significantly thicker than #1. This is the same Halloween orange and black cable that works well as a speaker cable. Used as a power cord, it didn't work as well as #1, sound wise.

3) 12 guage Home Depot Outdoor extension cable.
This appears to use the same guage individual strands as #2, just more of them. This is currently my favorite in both my amplifier and cd player, and beats #1 and #2 by a fair margin, sound wise.

I will have to try some solid core wire. We have a brand called Romex here that is used in the internal household wiring. It comes in different configurations, but I believe the conductor wire is basically the same solid core copper regardless of the other characteristics like shielding and insulation material. Its pretty cheap and I already have the plugs, so I'm willing to give it a try.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8571
Registered: May-04


Since you already have the Romex, I suspect you'll try it anyway; but in my estimation, it isn't very good compared to most other alternatives. Not to mention it's a pain to work with.


Though not at all UL approved, on low current devices, I tend to favor Kimber Kable. I use the Teflon coated variety and have had good success with it used as a power cable for my turntable and pre amp. The braiding offers RFI rejection just as it does when used as a speaker cable. It's quite easy to work with compared to items such as Romex. Do be careful not to crosswire the cable which is rather easy when dealing with eight conductors. And, since there is no outer dielectric, be very careful of any broken insulation on any of the conductors. The Teflon cable makes this less of a worry.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Musicluvr

Post Number: 67
Registered: Apr-05
Jan,

I highly trust your judgement, and yes, I will still give it a try. As mentioned earlier, the effect of PCs are probably very system dependent.

Kimber Kable, huh. That would be and odd twist. I have a pair Kimber Kables that have seen only light use in my system since I started using the Home Depot stuff for my speaker cables.
 

Silver Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 468
Registered: Feb-05
Nuck: You cannot earth ground outlets in North America this is against NEC code. Only the main in is to be Earth grounded with a metal rod.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bvan

Cape Town, Copenhagen,...

Post Number: 224
Registered: Jun-05
got a question if thats hopefully not too far off topic.

just bought a consonance "line conditioner/line protector" for a good price. mainly for surge protection but i was hoping the emi/rfi filtering might help. though i have no reason to suspect dirty power, and have heard nada about this particular conditioner. bought blind and had a first critical listen tonight. didnt notice any difference.

my question: it says "noise filter 70db from 1mhz-10mhz". what is the significance of this? I've never noticed any discussion of filter parameters, is there something one should look for in a filter?

one more question. the conditioner if rated 10A, as are all my power cables. would it still help to get 20 or 60 amp dedicated circuit installed? (is 10A europe = 20A u.s.a?)

thanks

b.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8593
Registered: May-04


The mHz rating is for RFI interference. If you have someone with a contact to a UFO flying around in your neighborhood, you're screwed!


There is in all likelylhood a 10 amp slow blow fuse inside the unit. I will blow after more than 10 amps have passed through the link for more than whatever the time spam for slow blow fuses is. Seems odd, since most US circuits are 15 amp and 20 amp are certainly not out of the question for high end amplifiers.


 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8594
Registered: May-04


This line protector might be rated for low voltage use such as pre amps and source components.

 

Silver Member
Username: Bvan

Cape Town, Copenhagen,...

Post Number: 225
Registered: Jun-05
thanks jan.

wonder why they dont tell you it isnt for power amps?

would the amp only need more than 10A at hight volumes? would my 40w prima luna need more than that if i never listen at over 85db?

and one more question, would it help to get a higher rated dedicated circuit installed when even the power cords that came with the prima luna amp and rega cd player are both rated at 10A? i.e are these cords bottle-necking everything upstream.

thanks for the help anyone.

b

p.s the guy at the elecronics store told me that 10A in a 220V country is the same as 20A with 110V. this true? (highschool physics but a faded memory)
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8604
Registered: May-04


Yes, lower current draw for higher voltage works out to be about what the salesperson suggested. How much current draw your amplifier requires is dependent on the manner in which the power supply is built and the sort of music you listen to. Obviously an amplifier doesn't draw any current until it is connected to a loudspeaker and the circuit is complete. The load your speakers present to the outputs of your amplifier will determine how much current is required at the various frequency points. How loudly you listen and whether the music is constantly demanding will finalize the equation. It's another one of those Ohm's Law things.


Lower impedance and/or more negative phase angles in the speakers require more current drive from the power amplifier to adequately control the woofer. If the amplifier has plenty of reserve capacitance in the power supply, you probably won't have any current drop at the outputs. Large reserves imply the amplifier has enough "juice" to manage instantaneous demands and have enough left for another good sized drum whack or two immediately after. If the amplifier is designed to compensate for a poor quality power supply by literally sucking current from the wall socket, you could have problems. The PL isn't designed this way from everything I've read about it.


Is the power cable the bottleneck? No. Capacitors can only refresh themself at a constant, given rate and they will probably not exceed what the 10 amp power cable can supply. I'm sure Ramsey can give the numbers, as I've never had to memorize that equation.



However, as has been pointed out, a concept of power cables and AC line conditioners is to lower the source impedance of the cable which supplies the amperage. Aside from the possible benefits of RFI/EMI filtration, this lowered source impedance is the most important benefit to many users. The lower the impedance, the more current flows is a simplfied idea that works well. Until you get to a shorted circuit that is. Very expensive conditioners usually add some storage capacitance to further lower the source impedance. If your conditioner weighs in more like a good sized power amplifier, it probably has this additional capacitance. If not, then not.


The Rega player won't have high current demands. So changing the power cable would have benefits over and above a lower source impedance. I would expect an upgraded power cable to make a difference on both player and amplifier, but not necessarily due to large current demands. Most tube amplifiers do not have large current delivery into any load. Three to five amps is typical for reasonably priced, modern day tube power amplifiers. Tubes are essentially a voltage device while transistors rely on current.


Large wattage transistor power amps normally deliver large amperage and thus have gained the reputation for "better" bass response over tube power amps. Transistors, not having to coupled the outputs through a transformer, also have a lower output/source impedance. Lower source impedance (speaker drawing current from the amplifier) means potentially more current delivery, remember. This gets into system matching and there the possibilites for mismatch jump skyward with amazing speed.


But lowering the source impedance to the power supply and lowering the noise floor of the AC line should be audible, if you have any problems with your AC line. And, it is rare that someone doesn't have some problems given the multitude of noise sources that can exist on a shared AC line.


Try this experiment. With the system plugged thourgh the conditioner, place you ear a few inches from the tweeter in one of your speakers. Disconnect the conditioner and listen again. You should notice a distinct difference in hashy noise from the tweeter if the conditioner is having an effect on your incoming AC line.


If you are thinking of a dedicated AC line for your system, there are few upgrades that make as large an improvement in clarity and dynamics. Taking the refrigerator, washer/dryer, air conditioner, etc, that exist in not only your house but all your neighbors' homes who share the transformer with you out of the equation almost always results in a more relaxed system sound. Conditions vary from place to place, however, and I can't guaranty results. If you don't hear a difference in the noise with the conditioner in line and out of line, you might be one of the fortunate few who have very clean AC. Or, the conditioner might not be doing as good a job as possible.


 

Silver Member
Username: Bvan

Cape Town, Copenhagen,...

Post Number: 226
Registered: Jun-05
thanks for taking the time jan. excellent post.

i'll put my ear to the tweeter tomorrow, bedtime here.

b
 

New member
Username: Rob_s

Elwood, Vic Australia

Post Number: 1
Registered: Jun-06
check the products from this guy:

http://www.m5abv.com/
http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=m5abv

simply blow any aftermarket cables away, for a really reasonable price. i purchased the tripple, mainly based on reviews and it absolutely blew me away. i have a modest system, but it has really taken it to a different level.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 3074
Registered: Dec-04
A bit further.
Power cords are a crok.
You are going fron the wall plug to your amp/whatever, and inproving one part of the circuit.
By imposing one part of the circuit using goodie wire makes zero difference.
Why the heck would you spend $ on a connection counting on spring loaded tensioners in the first place?
Would it not make more sense to hard wire or solder the mains power into the amp and forget the 2x interconnects?
Seems kinda simple to me.
But I am a simple guy.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 3414
Registered: Feb-05
"Would it not make more sense to hard wire or solder the mains power into the amp and forget the 2x interconnects?"

Unless you're hard wiring in bad wire. I'd rather count on spring loaded tensioners with good wire than solder in the bad. That's just me.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 3078
Registered: Dec-04
One guy out here in the sticks is using a natural gas fired generator which he dedicated to his kit.
Absolutely dedicated power and earthing.
Hard wired all mains.
In that case, I can see the benefit of power cords.
BTW, the Genny is load responsive, and he said the setup lacked immediacy.
I suppose it really depends on the class of amp as well.
Change from a nickel.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8713
Registered: May-04
Not much left from that nickel. You should hardwire interconnects, power cables, etc. However, it makes for a pain in the @ss to move anything or make diagnostics by swapping cables. Other than that, your idea is the most proficient way to set up your system. It would benefit everyone though to do away with RCA connectors. They are the crappiest of crappy ways to make a good connection. Once again, the ability to swap cables is the limiting factor as long as the high end audio industry keeps the RCA as its standard.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 3080
Registered: Dec-04
If I didn't know better, I might think Jan said I had something right.
I'll gnaw that bone.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 3415
Registered: Feb-05
I think that Jan would still agree that the quality of the wire (interconnect, power cord etc.) is every bit as important. Hardwiring poor quality cable is not the way to good sound.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8718
Registered: May-04
Define "poor quality cable".
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 3416
Registered: Feb-05
One that doesn't sound good to the ear of the beholder.

I guess we would have to agree that cables sound different.

I would rather not hard wire in the stock power cords and the interconnects that I was using before I bought what I presently have because they clearly did not sound as good.

Nucks argument to me on the phone was that there is no difference in the sound of power cords and because they rely on the spring tensioners for contact he would rather hard wire the stick cable than buy a new power cord. I stated that there is an audible difference between cords and cables and yes hard wiring is ideal but with the amount of swapping folks do as there are system changes and diagnostics that may require it, it is often not practical. Also if I were hard wiring a system I would use cables that I had found to be a good match with my system and not the stock ones.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 3083
Registered: Dec-04
And I continue the position that one piece of solid 12g copper is the same as the next, particularly for non amp applications.
Well, hell, for amps too!
I am conducting current from a less than ideal buss to the load.
12g copper is sufficient to conduct 30amps over normal runs, and even without the slide rule and code book, voltage drop, heat generation RFI generation and the lot are like zero.
I just can't eat this one without a bit of hunny.
It is 120v into the gear. It is, or it ain't. good enough.
12g solid wire in a BX sheath is as good as it gets.
ESPECIALLY as it is only one part of the circuit.
That wasn't yelling, I can't do itallics.Darn.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8720
Registered: May-04
Try \then i then { and }. Your wannabe italicized word goes between the brackets. I can't type it the way it's done since the forum thinks I'm trying to format something. There are rules for formatting posts here: https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/discus.pl?pg=formatting
 

Silver Member
Username: Ravbains

MelbourneAustralia

Post Number: 118
Registered: Mar-06
Hi Nuck,

why not try one of these power cables, and then see what happens?

I cannot argue with your logic, but I know from practical experience that these cables can and do make a difference, and sometimes the change is far from subtle.

I have done lots of DIY work on interconnects and power cables.

But as always it's best not to get hung up on details, and with cables I feel it is best to keep a sense of perspective. Some of these wonder cables cost a kings ransom, hence I try to make my own cables.

ciao
Rav
 

New member
Username: Sarius

Post Number: 8
Registered: May-06
I might suggest that, for someone who has the proper equipment, there is a simple experiment that could tell us a lot.

You'd need a good sized amp, some fairly difficult load speakers, and some demanding recorded material, plus some way to look at an A/C signal dynamically looking at both voltage and current as well as any added noise. You'd need some sort of scope to examine the wave form.

You then get a 'super-duper' powercord and the factory stock cord, attach the probes to the A/C inputs in the amp and crank the sucker up, first with one cord then the other while comparing the A/C waveforms and current coming in while the amp is playing the same demanding passages.

If these expensive cords really make a difference, we should see some difference either in voltage, current, and/or noise riding along coming into the amp. If we see no important differences, than I'd believe that these cords can't be adding add anything to the sound.

If there is a difference worth noting, that doesn't 'prove' anything soniclly, but opens the door to more interesting questions and does demonstrate that there is some effect from these cords.

I've been looking and considering both the popularity and cost of these things, I'm shocked at the lack of any sort of attempts to do some objective measurements here.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 1461
Registered: Sep-04
Ah but what do you consider to be important? After all, jitter in a CD player is measured in picoseconds, and yet it has a major effect on timing and noise of the resulting sound, even though we can't hear the jitter directly.

This is the problem with any of these measurements. We just don't know what to measure and once we've measured everything we can think of, we don't really know what it is in our brains that make one sound more 'right' than the other...

Nuck, just accept it...:-)

Regards,
Frank.
 

New member
Username: Sarius

Post Number: 10
Registered: May-06
What I'm proposing is a simple first look at what an expensive powercord might or might not be doing.

BTW- I'm aware of the fact that looking at voltage and its attendant noise-riders is sufficient if everything else, including the passages the amp is playing and the volume level is the same. Ohms law would demand that the current would have to follow the voltage.

In any case, we'd be looking for something very simple. Is the dynamic voltage signal 'The Same' or 'Not the Same' when the stock powercord is switched for the primo one. If the powercord debunkers are correct we should see an identical trace- that is, the powercords should be passing the same voltages and the noise, ideally as seen through a spectrum analyzer should likewise be 'The Same'. Or similar enough to be explained by changes in the environment between runs.

If a powercord can make any difference at all, then (in the absence of magical gremlins) the voltage traces and the attached noise should be 'Not The Same'. If that's the case, then one needs to look further, but at least you've established some effect of an expensive power cord. Whether that translates into some sonic difference is a different question, but at least it would be seen that spending big bucks to plug your component into the wall is doing something.

If the traces are 'The Same' with a big amp playing difficult passages at high volumes though demanding speakers, than I'd believe that would pretty much answer the powercord question as there really couldn't be any sonic effect if there is no effect to be seen on the incoming A/C signal.

Given that what powercords are asked to do is really pretty simple, and taking a look at the amp power inputs is likewise not exactly rocket science, I'm more than a bit surprised that no one has bothered to look especially given that the equipment to accomplish this is pretty common in the testing labs associated with the various audiophile media, to say nothing of the repair shops that some of you have access to.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 3417
Registered: Feb-05
If I hear the difference then no more testing is needed for me.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 3103
Registered: Dec-04
Absolutely agreed, Art, and Frank.
I'm trying to get a good feel for the parts and improvements so I can try on my own(like Ravi did), without spending the kind of money these things go for. Solid bluddy gold, you would think!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 8725
Registered: May-04
Gold, solid or not, is not a good conductor of AC voltages.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 3115
Registered: Dec-04
Copper's nearly as dear on the commodities market.
Luckily cheaker in a 12g BX sheath.
Pop a hole in the amp back, silver solder and hard wire into the wall box.
Nothing lovely, but see what appears to appear to me.
« Previous Thread Next Thread »



Main Forums

Today's Posts

Forum Help

Follow Us