I need some subs that will shake my innards - hard
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hayabusa Unregistered guest | I'm new to higher end subs. The Cerwin Vega 10" non powered sub (was being run by a carver amp bridged to 250w) I've owned for the past 12 years died. I went shopping for subs looking spend maybe $500, and was disappointed with what I heard until I heard this Paradigm Seismic 12. I turned the sub up all the way, the preamp 'til it read 0db, then ran a few of my favorite CDs with some heavy bass and I loved it... but I wanted more bass so I wanted 2 of 'em, and started researching and now I can't decide. This is where I'm at now - I've got about 2K to spend on subs and I would like to know what the members here think would be a good choice. Bear in mind that I use to have a Toyota Tercel with a pair of 16's that caused my eyes to blurr when the deep bass hit and I'm looking for that again in my home subs =). I can get a pair of new Velodyne HGSX 15s, shop for used and pay about the same for a pair of Velodyne HGS 18s. But I've researched this site and I don't see alot of Velodyne being purchased. I did see some people mention the PB12-Plus/2 as a good speaker. Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1558 Registered: Feb-05 | If you are looking for wall shaking bass and don't listen to classical or jazz as your primary preference I suggest Hsu or SVS. Hsu will have a new high output line out soon. Frankly, if what they have out now is not high output then I am not sure what is. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1061 Registered: Mar-05 | What sub did you settle on Art? |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1197 Registered: May-05 | Via shaking your innards, is close to stupidity, the risk of infersSonics can do damage to the body that is frequencies that are below 20Hz and extending down to 0db, you really need lots and I mean lots of amplification power and an array of 18inc sub bass units placed within the room, where the doubling of each unit increases by 3db at a time, whilst extending and reinforcing the sub basses lower frequencies down it takes skill to achieve this and lots of money too.... So one question just how old are you, as this will give me an idea on what you are striving in for, most of what you feel in real life, like travelling on a bus and feeling the bumps as it moves across the road at a steady 30mph, most is audible sounds and the rest is made up with infersSonics, below human hearing. There are lots of ways to reach the goals that you're looking for, but like I said they do not come cheaply in every high street store.... Now if you where to play a sine wave at 7Hz with lots of power and authority of high SPL db levels and when I say, I mean very it well match your own bodies resonate frequency, where you will start to feel dizzy with chest-pains and internal organ damage followed closely by fatal death, yeah its very cheery so just that you know, SPL db can kill, and its not a laughing mater ether.... Enjoy Ashley |
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hayabusa Unregistered guest | To Andy/Ashley - I'm in my 40s. I tested the Paradigm sub mostly with the CD "The Best of Sade", but used Steely Dan, Queen, Creed, and The Eagles. I really enjoyed the bass in my Tercel - very deep. Gangster's Paradise opening chords felt like they were shaking my guts, my hairs on my head, and it seemed to be shaking my eyes and blurring my vision. That said, some songs in that car sounded muddy when I was hoping for a cleaner tighter bass. I was forever going back into my trunk chaning my cross over settings depending what CD I was playing. I don't want to die and I don't want to buy subs that will cause me to die and I don't think I can do it for 2K but maybe I could if I were to tune the thing to play at 7Hz. In my subject line I just wanted to communicate how much and what kind of bass I liked. I've already looked at the SVS and it shows 900w amp driving 2 12s. Has anyone listened to this and the Paradigm? How does it compare for sheer brute force and for clarity? I've been trying to go to the HSU site, but it seems to be down. I called the 800# (found it on another site) but they aren't in on weekends. Thanks in advance for any help, and no, I don't want to play anything at 7Hz =] |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1694 Registered: Mar-05 | http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb12_ultra_2.htm I can't imagine you NOT being happy with the bass from this monster. Yeah if pure SPL is what you're after SVS seems to be the way to go. |
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hayabusa Unregistered guest | Edster - The salesman who demoed the Paradigms was surprised that though I loved them, I wanted about 2 times what it was putting out =) So I'm thinking I wouldn't be happy - with just 1. Why wouldn't I want to get 2 of the PB12 Plus's instead of the the PB12 Utlra for about the same money? HSU's site is back up. I think between the HSU and the SVS I'm leaning toward the SVS. Is there a place where I could go to demo the SVS? I would still like to hear from anyone with info on the Velodynes or Bag Ends or Paradigms. Thanks for the reply |
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hayabusa Unregistered guest | The only thing I've test driven is the paradigm seismic 12 (1250w rms, 4500w peak), 1 single down firing sub with 2 passives in neat, small package. I fell in love, but wanted 2 times what it was doing. So I researched and found some Velodynes HGSX 15s (1250w rms, 3000w peak), but I've never heard them, but I know that I love deep rich bass and always tend to want more. How does the SVS PB Plus 2 compare these other subs? I currently can get the above subs for about 1K each. If I go with SVS, should I get 2 SVS PB Plus/2 or just SVS PB Ultra/2 (about the same money) Is there a place where I can test drive the PB Plus/2? Thanks for any info. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1203 Registered: May-05 | Hayabusa I'm 38 years old so; I do take it you know what you're doing with all this ultra low sub bass authority.... Cool hehaheahahaha, cool.... Ok so are you testing these sub bass units out? As I'm doing a similar thing testing the LFE, and less is more? There is some sub bass units that fall flat on there face big time, one not being able to handy the sub bass authority down at 20Hz lest of all 40Hz without popping, I have this friend, well his sub is the Yamaha SW YST-120 I think that's the correct name for it, WOW Late-Night Lisa on classic fm playing John Williams Star Wars episode 3 Battle of the Heroes WOW........ Anyway, you now know I'm a big John Williams fan, and playing it on JBL control 5 three-screen matching with more control 5 for the surrounds as well as JBL HT-1F a few Eltax HT-2 Bipolar, and the sub bass is via the wrathful JBL 4645 nuclear super nova the classical model she is, down to down to 18Hz with 20Hz to 120Hz being the standard playback with 120db SPL max 600watts, it's the highlight in the JBL set-up. And being running her now for 7 years not a days gone by at where she as given me a bad sound least of all popping sound, she's calibrated to play within the tolerance levels within her capability................. The SVS range I have read the reviews on them and the high number specifications with given sub bass authority below 20Hz on some models, but most films nearly all respond from 20Hz to 120Hz on the LFE, if it can manage 20Hz then you have a sub bass speaker on your hands....... Ashley |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1559 Registered: Feb-05 | Joseph, I have an Era Sub 10. Most musical sub that I've heard at any price. It's not a boomer. It's for primarily music. My friend uses his with his Magnepan 3.6's and says it's the best he's used. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1696 Registered: Mar-05 | I'm sure the SVS subs would demolish anything in a shop, esp. if sheer SPL is your main goal here. What I'd do in your shoes is buy just one PB Plus/2 and see if it's enough, if not then order a second one. Two of them is probably better than one Plus/Ultra though some people say that having 2 subs presents other problems you don't have with 1...email SVS directly, I'm sure they'd be happy to advise you, they're usually very good with answering questions like that. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1204 Registered: May-05 | Edster922 With adding two, they will need EQ addressed to them as the doubling of the frequency out put will need 1/3 octave applied with the use of an RTA and SPL db meter........... Ashley |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1205 Registered: May-05 | Edster922 The peaks may work with the crossover, but not very efficient, 1/3 octave EQ is the only way, and the RTA will see the peaks, when using wideband pink noise. Just adjust the peaks to be less, and never boost the EQ levels never, always use cuts, and then once done enjoy "Master and Commander" as tested on "the LFE test" thread The LFE test.... https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/154770.html Ashley |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1697 Registered: Mar-05 | > Hsu will have a new high output line out soon. Frankly, if what they have out now is not high output then I am not sure what is Art, when did you listen to the Hsu, and which model? I'm curious what you thought of it, especially compared to the SVS which you returned. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1560 Registered: Feb-05 | Twas the Hsu VTF-2. I listened to it at Speakerlab in Seattle. It was more musical than the SVS that I sent back. It still didn't hold a candle to the Era, REL, or Vandersteen for music. Plenty of SPL for bassheads and will light that home theater up. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5366 Registered: May-04 | Guys, for the kind of bass that shakes your eyelids, you have to think outside the box: "From JLowe, he has a 2 Avalanche 18" IB: The preliminary results are insane. I moved from dual SVS 16-46 PC+'s, wow, who knew they were falling on their faces so much! If the SVS pair could be called impressive, then the IB is simply scary. Where I was scared to pump the SVS up for fear of it bottoming, I'm now scared turning the IB up for fear of bringing my home down on top of me!" * "At the mouth of the IB opening, the transients could snuff out a road hazard flare." * "A good IB beats $8K worth of Velodynes any day." * "About 4 minutes into LOTR:FOTR, Isildur cuts off Sauron's hand. Moments later, there is a giant shock wave. We felt that wave start at the front of the room and literally wash over us, shaking the couch as though we had tactile transducers. We were stunned, shocked, amazed, exhilarated. We hit rewind and played it again. And again. And again. It was like a religious experience. I sat there with a grin on my face." Putting a large driver is a small box and then EQ'ing the snot out of it until it "sounds" impressive is not the same as a true IB. Ashley, I can't believe you don't have a couple IB's running. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1564 Registered: Feb-05 | Listening to hip-hop these days Jan. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5370 Registered: May-04 | No. Hip Hop is so last week! But, if you have fillings that need to be replaced, the IB is cheaper and more effective at removing them than a dentist. And, the only thing better at moving your innards is a cheap TexMex meal. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5372 Registered: May-04 | OK, if you're all going to get like Paul and be afraid of real bass, whimp out with these: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_3/diy-11-sonotube-subwoofer-september-99 .html http://www.passdiy.com/projects/el-pipe-o-1.htm |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1565 Registered: Feb-05 | Ouch! I think I have all the bass I need thanks. Perhaps for a real gut busting experience you should have one IB per channel. A pair of CV's up front and Bose cubes all around. Now that's home theater with an edge (or is that edgy home theater). Hip Hop is so last week! Jan, me and you need to go do some hoo ridin'. Yo out! |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1210 Registered: May-05 | Least of all, there is no evidence that an "EARTHQUARKE" registering 4.2 on the "Richter scale" that can loosen "dental fillings." "Is it safe?!"  |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1711 Registered: Mar-05 | > It was more musical than the SVS that I sent back. It still didn't hold a candle to the Era, REL, or Vandersteen for music. I don't doubt you, but the VTF-2 is $500, how much are the others? 2-3 times more? > Plenty of SPL for bassheads Mmmmm, I wants! : ) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1712 Registered: Mar-05 | Andy, now THAT was an amazing film! "Marathon Man" is one of my all-time faves. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2155 Registered: Jan-05 | As an owner of a SVS PB12/Plus2, I'd like to say that this isnt a SUB for the faint of heart, or those WAF girlymen. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-theater/136710.jpg That's because there is no hiding this "mutha" from the Mrs. under the lace doiley. If you're looking for real impact, forget the HSU because they're minor league compared to the Plus2. |
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New member Username: Black05hemiSo Cal Post Number: 6 Registered: Jun-05 | "or those WAF girlymen" lol |
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Bronze Member Username: Dan_the_manLondon, Ontario Canada Post Number: 50 Registered: Jun-04 | LOL |
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Anonn Unregistered guest | Paul whats the matter, not enough hair on your chest? God your so pathetic man. |
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hayabusa Unregistered guest | I just put the hammer down and bought 2 SVS PB12/Plus2. I emailed SVS and they said I should place both next to each other and I should eliminate most of the issues of having 2 subs in 1 room. They also said that the additional SVS PB12/Plus2 should give me about 80% more boom-boom compared to just 1. Thanks to everyone for all of their input. Jan - Thanks for the info and the link to the IB site. Very educational. After reading the testimonials and viewing the sample installs, I so wanted to go this route, but my living room does not have an attic (2 story house), no basement and built on a slab foundation and only has about 200 cu ft of space for an IB and it is in the wrong place - back behind the seating area. Even the people at SVS said that the 2 SVS PB12/Plus2 would not compete with a good IB setup. Oh, well, guess I'll have start that project upstairs in my master bedroom =) |
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New member Username: SubwoofernoobeyPost Number: 3 Registered: Aug-05 | All i can say is Kicker 12" Comp Subwoofer, only like $100 and they pound you through the roof, twins on a 1200 watt amp are insane |
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Anonnn Unregistered guest | Colin you silly twit this is HOME audio, go away. if you can't even find the car audio section you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a computer. |
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Anonnn Unregistered guest | I like to be annoying lol |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2168 Registered: Jan-05 | two plus2's? Woah.... You might want to check your homeowners policy to make sure it covers 'soundwave' damage. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1224 Registered: May-05 | Hayabusa By placing the two SVS sub bass units side be side is called, "Mutual coupling" it will act as one whole, with twice the cone size, the frequency response and range too will also double SPL db level increasing by +3db...and so on enjoy. Ashley |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1225 Registered: May-05 | Hayabusa It's paramount that you use an SPL db meter to set the two "SVS" sub bass units up to, first set one of them up and running, note SPL db level on a good film with just the LFE signal going to it. Then set the other "SVS" sub bass unit up right up as close as it well go, then set the volume and frequency X-over at the same level as the first one, then play the same scene in a film again noting the SPL db on the meter, now if its more, than +3db turn the level down on the AVR by -3db, don't worry it will still knock your socks off, it's a percussion the lowest frequency response will still give impact. Remember this "less is more." Ashley Sorry just couldn't resize, that one |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2172 Registered: Jan-05 | Hay, Meters are only to be used as a guidline. Once you get the results from the meter, then you tweak the output to where it sounds good to your ears and blend exactly the way you like it. Dont be one of those excessive compulsives who require the use of 'security blankets' to tell them what sounds good. Maybe those are the same individuals who require others to tell them what sounds good since they cant tell for themselves. IMO, I think those who obsess over setup discs are probably a tad @nal, and probably wash their hands every 5 minutes, and spend 2 hours organizing their sock drawer. Each movie will have differences in the LFE material, and you'll want to either bump the SVS up a notch, or down slightly for each movie depending on the soundtrack, and your personal preferences. Just because the 'security blanket' says it's right, doesnt mean each movie will sound it's best to your ears. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1252 Registered: May-05 | hayabusa Yeah bump it and forget all about it and the next film you stick on KABOOM there goes the SVS right out the window, don't listen to this guy he certifiable.... But then fine if you like to increase the LFE output level, remember to firstly always set the master fader volume to minimum if the opening is soft sounding then raise the fader, if it indicates in db keep a close eye on it. As for the LFE level set it has I have told you if the LFE turns out to be softer the previous film, that is the intention, of the re-recoding mixers final mix. This issue has been raised by one sound mixer "Gary Rystorm" former mixer at Skywalker sound; most home cinema owners play it so ridiculously loud that you can hear it across the road. It should only accompany and reinforce the sound, not overwhelm it. Paul I think you said in one of your other posts that you always keep adjusting it, if it where that good then I should have brought one instead, but I guess that's why I've been running "JBL professional" for 7 years, don't get me wrong Paul it's a fantastic sub bass unit, but there really is no need to keep adjusting it ever single film that you place on the DVD player. The only time I'll do a check is every few months, not every single day....... Ashley |
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Anonymous | Andy don't even try, that Paul is a hopeless ignoramus and proud of it. I mean, numbnuts doesn't even use an SPL meter...what a friggin' joke! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2178 Registered: Jan-05 | For action movies with awesome LFE effects, I keep the gain set at around 35-40%. Anything more, and the bass begins to overpower everything else, and even medium/low volume background effects will make the house rumble.(when it's not supposed to) If I'm watching a movie that's a little weak, I might bump it up to around 50%, or if I'm watching a 5.1 show from a DirectTV source, I'll kick it up to 50%. As for hurting the SVS???....I think not. LOL Maybe that's the case with JBL, and you have to be careful to not break it, but it's not the case with the Plus/2. If I leave it at 50% and crank a demanding action flick, all that will happen is the bass will be too overpowering, but the SVS wont even be breaking a sweat. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2180 Registered: Jan-05 | Anon, Unless you're dumb, deaf, and blind, anyone can set the sub level properly manually. I have auto calibrated my sub, but that doesnt mean I like it set at that level. BTW, in all the reviews that I've read, the Yammi nails channel levels to within +-.5db. You must have a lousy 'vanilla' receiver that cant do this well, so in that case....you should get a meter since you must be hard of hearing. Otherwise, it would be quite simple. I like to run my sub slightly 'hot', but not by a lot. The only real variance is that on movies with little LFE effects, and for those, I give it a modest bump upwards.(or with Sat sources) |
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Anonymous | Paul the main reason you keep having to readjust your sub is because youre too ignorant to calibrate it correctly so your room nodes are messing with its consistent output. Do yourself and your SVS a favor and buy one of these: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-656&raid=33&ra k=248-656 I guarantee that will be the best hundred bucks youve ever spent. Also it shows just how weak and miscalibrated your Cerwin Vegas speakers and Yamaha receiver are to your SVS's internal amp. I can see that you have absolutely zero idea what in the hell youre doing and are just spouting off at the mouth. Right now aside from being an annoying prat on this forum youre also cheating yourself of getting your full moneys worth on that SVS. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2186 Registered: Jan-05 | As if I care what an idiot who goes by the name of "anon" has to say. |
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Anonymous | Of course you don't Paul, you're much happier being an ignorant windbag. It's all right, that's how most people are and that's why the world today is so FUBAR. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2191 Registered: Jan-05 | Only an idiot couldnt do something as simple as setting the sub volume by ear. You have one of either three settings...... 1.It's too quiet 2.It's too loud 3.It's just right If you cant figure that out without with your ears, then you should stick with a HTIB system because you couldnt hear quality if it hit you in the nose. |
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Anonymous | Do you get up and change the color settings on your TV every time you watch a different movie or program? Thinakabout, Paul. Or am I asking too much of you? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1767 Registered: Mar-05 | I have a better idea. Paul, why don't you just call up SVS and ask them if there are better ways to use their sub than to constantly change its gain setting? If they don't offer any solutions then we'll leave you in peace. |
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hayabusa Unregistered guest | SVS just shipped out my 2 Plus/2's - yeah, baby! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 842 Registered: Jun-05 | He thinks they are just meant for high SPLs and huge explosions.Its like when you first teach your kid how to ride their bike,they just wanna push with their legs,guys give it up their is no hope for Paul he is a small child stuck in a mans body he would rather have ice cream for dinner than real food. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2206 Registered: Jan-05 | Hay, The schmucks contributing to this thread have no clue what real bass is........ Woah.... You will be "clued in".....in very short order!!! enjoy.... The SVS's you ordered will out finesse and out blast everything within 10 miles of it's pricerange. The clueless souls with Dayton subs similar cheapos, will remain utterly in the dark. They have no clue........ Someone must swaller in the bass-gutter....better them than you. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1773 Registered: Mar-05 | > Someone must swaller in the bass-gutter....better them than you. HEH, spoken like a true "Compassionate Conservative." Long live Dubya! |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2216 Registered: Jan-05 | You have no authority to give advice on bass, since you, youself have never heard or experienced the real thing. You should stick with topics where you have personal experience.........like tiny front speakers, refurbed HKs, and $100 subwoofers the size of a breadbox. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1267 Registered: May-05 | Edster922 LOL Man I have the Real Thing sitting no more than 12 feet from me...... Edster922, don't worry all that SVS has gone to his head....... I guess you haven't seen bragging lately then, damn she's a big JBL 4645? Ashley |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5393 Registered: May-04 | Paul - Shall we list the areas where you should stay, given your personal experience. It would begin with any question regarding dinky little cheap assed Bose speakers. You can answer all the questions about "how good is Bose" from now on. I'm sure everyone else can contribute something that you should confine your opinions to. And, just in case you don't realize it, good sounding, reasonably sized front speakers are not what you should be commenting on. What kind of front speakers can Paul discuss, guys? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1789 Registered: Mar-05 | I'm afraid that Paul's lone area of half-credibility is with his SVS subwoofer which hilariously enough he doesn't even know how to use properly and is too lazy to learn. But it's the most decent thing in his system other than the Mitsu telly. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2226 Registered: Jan-05 | I love how the board excessive compulsives think adjusting the sub volume is a scientific procedure. Eddie, you better get back to rearranging your sock drawer for another hour or two, and wash your hands a few more times. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 622 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul, you have different speakers for every position, do you calibrate the test tone by ear too? You trust Yamaha to calibrate your system? Buy or borrow an SPL meter and set your system to 85dB at -20 dB on the receiver - just the way you like it. And, oh yeah, they made the film to have your sub hit at the same dB as your speakers for a reason, so you have accurate response and things in films sound lifelike. If your Yamaha had everything perfect I will eat my words, but the Auto Eq. on my receiver was way off, and when I calibrated it properly the improvement in my system was immense, and I'm currently using an admittedly weak Polk PSW404. Don't worry though Paul, there's an SVS 20-39 PC-Plus in my future. The cylinder subs appear to do music better according to some of the reviews I've read. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1798 Registered: Mar-05 | Paul, you're like someone who forks out big bucks for a Porsche but is too lazy to get it tuned up properly. That's just a cryin' shame. For you and the SVS...it will never live up to its full potential. And considering how many movies you watch, I wouldn't be surprised if the gain knob falls off a year from now, if you're getting up and adjusting it every time you watch a different movie. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1273 Registered: May-05 | Kano,  I second that 100% the auto EQ is pants, sure it comes close, but sure hells not close enough, I have auto EQ on the Technics SH-66 and the SH-055 as pictured hear in my Home cinema. This precisely why I go though each and every channel in turn using the dts calibration disc, totally indispensable and by placing the microphone in the sweet spot as you can only EQ one part of the room, just like in the cinema.  Now if I where to do this the long and hard way, in the long run after an hour or too, its spot on and playing a film like "HOLLOWMAN" Dolby digital surround-EX where on chapter 25 though to chapter 26, where the water-sprinklers pan from fronts to centre back with trickles of water dripping from the left and right sides, it is timber matched, and I'm sure that Paul's is way out big time, and I could care to guess by how much SPL dbA weighting if measuring the Mids and Highs.  So I'm wondering just how much the Yamaha has calibrated it by, oh and never boost the EQ levels always use cuts instead. Dts calibration and set up disc  Adjusting the centre back surround level with EQ calibration  Ashley |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5402 Registered: May-04 | Ashley - FOCUS!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1275 Registered: May-05 | Jan, Yeah my minds more on the calibration side of things Jan, and I asked the salesman at London Camera Exchange, I wanted the most affordable Digital camera and for £49.99 mot bad at not that bad, I'll practice with its features there are so many and when I want to get a more costly one, but still in the affordable range. Anyway the camera only has zoom, the camera in question is a "Vivitar" vivicam 3785, with a movie mode WOW, unfortunately there is no Laser to zap Paul with.....LOL Ashley |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2229 Registered: Jan-05 | I guess that's one more reason to toss your 'ineffective' receivers in the trash, and to replace them with Yammis. The Yammi auto-calibration feature actually works. While you're forced to recalibrate manually because of your receivers inability to do the job right, Im watching movies. Such a pity..... Anyway, those who are intelligent realize that those are only general guidelines because you should calibrate it to where movies sound good to your ears, and not to where a little test tone says. Well, that is unless you're a little 'drone' that cant make that determination on your own because of a longing desire to be told. Heck, I wouldnt be surprised if your receivers dont even EQ channels independently. (only calibrating channel levels) |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2230 Registered: Jan-05 | Kano, If you're curious about how well the Yammi calibrates, read this. http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/YamahaRX-V2500review01.php I feel bad for all of you who have receivers not up to the task. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1276 Registered: May-05 | Films boost there output level form 2Khz to compensate due to the screen loss, which is perforated but still if I where to leave it to the Auto EQ not only is it going to add a huge HF boost, but it sure will sound toppy too. Dolby dts and SDDS films rely more on low end, which is why I EQ manually and keeping a close ear and eye on the RTA while performing these alignments, and the final results are fantastic, there should be so much LF for those that like action type films but that's not often the case films like "Out of Africa" can just be as fantastic than "Armageddon" which so damn loud and of putting with too much MF HF end. So what I aim for is getting the levels to suit all films within a reasonable tolerances, there are so many techniques to use and when you have been around the cinema industry you see a lot of changes going on. So stick with the Yamaha Auto EQ doubt very much it has an RTA so you can see that the signal is in fact flat, and when I've got a bit more money 1/3 octave EQ's will replace the present set-up. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1277 Registered: May-05 | Oh my god no parametric EQ, below 62.5Hz And you paid $1099, I've seen others less which no doubt you have as well, and it was the crunch time decision, not bad, although I would have gone a lot less and use the pre-outs, with addition equipment added on. Anyway I'm not going to put ant more words into your mouth Paul, you have to think like a projectionist. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1278 Registered: May-05 | Jan, I guess that's why he didn't read the Pros and Cons "Oh my god no parametric EQ, below 62.5Hz" I guess the Yamaha didn't include the kitchen sink on this one then. Anyway subject to change. Ashley |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2233 Registered: Jan-05 | "Oh my god no parametric EQ, below 62.5Hz" ======== There is a very good reason for that,ya know, but I wouldnt expect a projector jockey to understand. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1280 Registered: May-05 | LOL Jockey, LOL, Do us all a favour and get a (RTA) as for some of us are close to swinging form the chandelier Paul. Ashley |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5404 Registered: May-04 | Ashley - That will be the "improvement" on next year's model. Then the very good reason for not having it will become the very good reason to have it. Poor Paul, always willing to be told what he's missing is for his own good. So like life for him. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2234 Registered: Jan-05 | The funny thing is that I do have a pretty nice ADC equalizer down in the basement serving retirement duty. I just dont see the need for it anymore. Heck, and it only goes down to 31.5hz. A sign of the times from when it was built. It's vintage mid 80s, but I never used it for it's intended use. I mainly used it as an elaborate 'tone control' to crank the bass Nowdays, if I want a little extra........I tweak the gain upward a sliver on my subwoofer. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1282 Registered: May-05 |  |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1804 Registered: Mar-05 | Paul your little ADC is apples and oranges to the BFD from partsexpress...trust me on this. What's $100 to an obviously affluent Republican like you anyways? ; ) Unless you try it you'll never know what your SVS is truly capable of... |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1283 Registered: May-05 | You know there are three basic types Paul. The wills the won'ts and the can'ts The wills accomplish everything The won'ts oppose everything And the can'ts won't try anything. And from now on Paul just be a can't, you overgrown cactus plant..... |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2236 Registered: Jan-05 | I suppose that because of your NAD components, you have plenty of feedback and humming to destroy, so I cant blame you for having one of those BDF feedback destroyers. I dont think that thing is designed for HT applications. It's more about eliminating the NAD buzzing than it is EQ. Any 'real' parametric EQ will cost you a heck of a lot more. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 626 Registered: Oct-04 | Hey Paul, my receiver's auto/Eq worked just fine, I thought it did a fantastic job, until I used an SPL meter and realized you can't guess what sounds best by listening to a single movie, what worked for that movie may not be right for the next. You'd end up changing the channel levels or gain between movies, what a rediculous idea. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2242 Registered: Jan-05 | LOL........ so now your auto EQ did a fantastic job?? Make up your mind!! Now onto your other comment..... Whaaaaaaaaaat?????? NO!! Are you trying to tell me that movie sountracks differ?? Say it isnt so? So you think the ideal sub level for "Meet the Fockers" might differ from that for "Constantine"?? Could that be possible?? Or are you telling me that you're too lazy to get off your bumm and make it perfect when you hear that the sub is either too loud or quiet for your taste during any given movie?? And you call yourself an audiophile?? ....but then you'll sit there and suffer through a movie when you know it would sound better if you tweak the sub upwards or downwards just a 'smidg'. HEH....now I've heard it all!! |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1291 Registered: May-05 | Paul, When the film is mixed and finalised that is the way it is, what you should really do is set it for the highest LFE level or should I say within that films highest peak performance. Less is more, and if you continue to adjust the level fine, question are all your loudspeakers set to large or THX/small? |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 628 Registered: Oct-04 | Paul, you mistook everything I said. I thought the Auto/Eq did a fantastic job, but being it was my first system, I didn't realize what I was missing until I calibrated everything properly with an SPL meter. Movie soundtracks differ, but if your speakers are set to compliment your sub everything will sound perfect. All that needs to be adjusted between movies is the volume. By adjusting your sub gain up and down you're just taking away from the ability of your system to sound as lifelike as possible. But with your hodgepodge system I doubt you even know what that sounds like. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1295 Registered: May-05 |  |
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hayabusa Unregistered guest | Sorry to interrupt you guys, but... I got the subs, installed them together in a corner and the amount of bass these 2 subs put out is very similar to what I felt when I had my 2 16s in my Toyota tercel - the hair on my head shakes, seems to blur my vision when the right low frequencies hit, and feels like someone is pounding my body with a sonic sledge hammer - very good stuff. Ashley said > then play the same scene in a film again noting the SPL db on the meter, now if its more, than +3db turn the level down on the AVR by -3db < Uhhh... I dunno what that means -> AVR The receiver that I'm running does not have LFE. It is an old Kenwood kr-x1000 running 4 channels @ 135 w rms a channel, so I could not adjust the AVR (I don't think I have one). I guess I'm more like Paul in that I've always tuned by ear, I just don't have as nice of equipment as he has. In fact, I'm worse than Paul -- I change not only the bass level according to what I'm listening to, but presets on my eq, and I even will change the volume for different songs/different dvds, and different parts of songs/different scenes in a movie. Call me a Neanderthal. I may be dragging my knuckles when I walk, but I'm a happy bloke. I'm running both subs @ about 75% on the gain, crossovers set to 80hz (tuned it by ear listening to several dvds and cds). I swear that when I play some of Creeds songs, the bass is actively digesting my food. My windows are flexing, the protective shield on my TV looks like a small pond as the shock waves ripple across it, and my house has squeaks and rattles in the subsonic (yes sound waves below what I can hear, but the SPL meter is reading it and things not bolted tightly in house are dancing to it, as I played the AVIA disk). It was so good that I turned off 1 sub thinking it would be enough, but naw, I need both of 'em. All this, and when the volume is played at a reasonable level the bass is not overpowering. Once again, thanks for everyone and all of their input. Shane |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2275 Registered: Jan-05 | 75%?? Yikes!! I guess it's different playing music CDs. If you play a movie, you'll no doubt need to turn them lower or else they'll overpower the rest of the movie soundtrack. It sound like fun...... Two plus2's.........wow!! |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 632 Registered: Oct-04 | AVR - refers to Audio Video Receiver. Turning the channel level down -3dB on the receiver when the sub is connected to the LFE is the same as adjusting the gain on the back of the sub. It sounds like you like your playback bass heavy, just don't turn the receiver up to reference level as I've heard of SVSs blowing woofers when set at 75%. |
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Bronze Member Username: WhatareyoudoingPost Number: 52 Registered: Jul-05 | Kano, Ashley is correct if you where to add on the same sub bass speaker and continue to add more on the spl db will increase by +3db, giving more output and lowering the frequency, it should be noted that you should turn the level down due to the increase. And using a spl db meter with RTA analyzer to see the room modes as the spl db meter wont see those little things that mater the most, the guy is correct. |
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Bronze Member Username: WhatareyoudoingPost Number: 56 Registered: Jul-05 | sorry guys I almost forgot to mention that my good friend of mine blow the guts out of his SVS sub bass tower around 4 weeks ago, yeah sure it was under the warranty and guarantee but still was he unimpressed with it's performance, so after sending it back and getting his money back, I helped him look for a more real sub bass speaker and we saw a pro model a huge JBL 4645B which he paid $650 used but in good working order and with a QSC RMX 2450 amp setup to bridge mode delivering 1.2Kw and we also got a stereo mixer and tried out the LFE testing that Ashley has been doing, makes perfect since though to not over run it nor keep changing the levels for every single film but setting it for the one that's got the most LFE on it so far we have noted "star wars" as top with "independence day" coming under it. So if Paul likes playing around with his SVS its only a question of time, sure if we have read the LFE test before the unfortunate SVS total destruction, it maybe still playing the violin. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 633 Registered: Oct-04 | No where in my post did I disagree to Andy. hayabusa doesn't have an LFE pre-out on his AVR. He has it instead connected to the left and right pre-outs with a low pass filter of 80Hz. The AVR doesn't have a way of lowering the dB, it must be done on the back of the sub. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1302 Registered: May-05 | Kano and Whatareyoudoing? Hi there well What?, you are on my frequency band well at least someone else as adopted the professional approach, so it's a JBL 4645b that's the newer range with just the twin-ports with an angled 45º turn on the ports facing downwards to the bottom of the enclosure, and lot more low end as well down to 18Hz, now that's a sub bass unit your friend has on his hands there. Anyway I'm doing the LFE test right now with 4 films that have submarine theme, "U-571" which is running now with "K-19" "The Hunt for Red October" and "Crimson Tide" dts Laserdisc so I've got a whole lot go over today, when I'm finished with "U-571" I'll present my findings. Hayabusa, never overpower your SVS not unless you what to still be running it in 7 years time from now, anyway enjoy it at the settings set to the highest motion picture soundtrack which so far is "Fight Club" with that slam coming in at chapter 9 midair collision. Ashley |
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Bronze Member Username: KidstereoPost Number: 13 Registered: Aug-05 | So, let me get this straight, guys. If a subwoofer extends down to 7 hz, it can kill you? Give me some examples of a few. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2279 Registered: Jan-05 | Kano, If he's turning it that loud, it must be with standard 'old' CD recordings. I've experimented with old rock CDs and you can turn the subwoofer much louder because of the weak low frequencies. If it was a quality movie soundtrack...whoa... That, I couldnt even imagine. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1326 Registered: May-05 | Paul, Just set the SVS for best and less is more, if the Rock CD's are why too much for taking just turn the fader down, also I have noted the sub bass is no more than 5 or 6 feet away from you? Sub bass units should be placed up front (A) in-between the CV's or to the outsides of the CV's but best position will be to the in-between the CV's, and its not impossible to do there's lots of space up front, just reposition the AVR DVD not sure if that's a turn table, anyway to near you setting area. Then the SVS sub bass unit can be placed in-between, noting that the volume level, is still in the same position, and yes some cable for the Mitsubishi 65"HDTV. Also how about if the CV's and the SVS where placed on a stage? About 1foot high, with some nice lighting fixed to it that you can see but doesn't place glare in your eyes? I hoping I can do the same with my home cinema this year, as last years one had to be postponed. Ashley |
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New member Username: Sonnie_parkerL. A. (Lower Alabama) Post Number: 1 Registered: Oct-05 | The auto-eq functions are okay until you get down to the low end of the frequency range. To tell you a little about the BFD: Originally the BFD was designed for the performance/entertainment industry. Think about its name "feedback destroyer". It is used in recording studios and concerts. The unit is wired into the system, set on auto-pilot, and then it searches out feedback and kills it. However, its functionality and design allows it to be used in the home theater as one of the most flexible parametric subwoofer equalizers available. With the BFD you can pick up to 24 frequencies (1 combined channel X 24 or 2 separate channels X 12), adjust the bandwidth as narrow or wide as you wish (from 1/60 of an octave to 120/60 or 2 full octaves), and either boost them as much as 16db or cut them by as much as a whopping 48db. How many parametric eq's do know of that can do that? Pretty impressive if you ask me. As stated above, the BFD can be used as a parametric subwoofer eq. Subs are measured in either a wide open space or an anechoic chamber/room and the mic is usually placed 1 meter out from the center of the sub speaker cone. How many of us set up our sub in the perfect room and have our listening position with our ears centered 1 meter in front of the sub? When you see the frequency response of a sub measured by the manufacturer you see this: (these graphs are shrunk to comply with forum rules... click the link below them to see full size)  http://www.snapbug.ws/images/subgraph0001.jpg The manufacturer rates the frequency response as 22hz -- 200hz (+/-3db). When we place that sub in our homes there will be two things for certain and one thing for sure... if we measure the frequency response at our listening position, it will not be the same as the manufacturers response. It will look something like this:  http://www.snapbug.ws/images/subgraph0002.jpg This is actually the pre-BFD response of my sub from my main listening position. Obviously yours may look different... the point is that it will not be nearly as flat as the manufacturers rated response. Our room size, shape, construction, and things we place inside such as cabinets and chairs, as well as the location of our sub, will all have an effect on our sub response. This means what we are hearing from our sub is not what the manufacturer intends for us to hear and it will probably not sound as good as it should. What we can do with the BFD is at least get the response better for the main listening position, and many times it will make it better for those near that main listening position. What we would like to do is get our response to look something like this:  http://www.snapbug.ws/images/subgraph0003.jpg No... this is not a perfectly flat line, it is somewhat of what we call a house curve. This is the post BFD response of my sub from my main listening position. The house curve is what many enthusiasts like for movie watching, while critical music listeners might prefer a flatter response. The house curve is generally flat from 20hz up to about 32-40hz and then gradually falls off -10db out to about 80-100hz (or your crossover point). I don't know that there is a chiseled in stone rule for the house curve, but in my case it's the best I could do since I had a nasty dip at 40hz. So... if we take those two graphs, the pre-BFD response and post-BFD response, we can get a really good picture of what the BFD can do:  http://www.snapbug.ws/images/subgraph004.jpg Wouldn't you agree... everyone needs a BFD! Sonnie Parker CEDAR CREEK CINEMA BFD GUIDE |
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