Line array, PC center/sub

 

New member
Username: Apsoul

Post Number: 4
Registered: Aug-11
Current setup is as follows:
PC front: Philips SPA7210/17
PC side: output to Panasonic RA-6500 Receiver (A,B,A+B outputs; 80w)
A chan: Realistic MC-1800 (50w max, 8 1/4", 2 1/2")
B chan: Panasonic CS-R590 3-way Floorspeakers (150w max, 38-20k hz)

Before I get started on the line array, would I be able to feed a 20-20,000hz capable amp from the center/sub computer output, and then hook up a center speaker and a sub to the amp's left and right channels? I experimented with the cen/sub channel and as far as my computer is concerned, center channel is left, and sub is right.

Onto the line array. Would building a horizontal line array be a suitable option for the center channel speaker? I was thinking either http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-286 or http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-919.

Would they be suitable speakers for center channel?
Should I just build that array and replace my front channel speakers with it and find another way to get my LF sounds?
If I were to use either of those drivers in a speaker setup should i filter out low frequency, or do they go low enough not to worry about damage?

If I do end up building the center array/sub setup, could i still move my philips pc speakers to the rear channel and not use front channel? The panasonic floor speakers, and realistic bookshelf would still be side channel.

As you can see I have a number of ideas, that I am finding difficult to answer with my limited knowledge of surround sound specifics, and acoustic theory. All help is appreciated.
Thanks
~Apsoul

Edit: Looking at the speakers specs, and the calculators for box vb, qtc, and such, it appears the smaller speaker listed above would perform most accurately in an "open back" speaker box design. Am I correct in this assumption?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16558
Registered: May-04
.

"Before I get started on the line array, would I be able to feed a 20-20,000hz capable amp from the center/sub computer output, and then hook up a center speaker and a sub to the amp's left and right channels? I experimented with the cen/sub channel and as far as my computer is concerned, center channel is left, and sub is right."


From what you describe, that's what you're hooking up and the amp has no decisions to make in the matter. It will do what you hook up. A center speaker needs to be fed center channel signals and ditto for the sub. Am I missing something here?



"Onto the line array. Would building a horizontal line array be a suitable option for the center channel speaker? I was thinking either http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-286 or http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-919.

Would they be suitable speakers for center channel?"




Really?! You're talking about spending $1.50 max for drivers?



"Would they be suitable speakers for center channel?"


I wouldn't think so but you and I might disagree on what we consider "quality sound".



"Should I just build that array and replace my front channel speakers with it and find another way to get my LF sounds?
If I were to use either of those drivers in a speaker setup should i filter out low frequency, or do they go low enough not to worry about damage?"




Do you consider 150Hz or 191Hz "low enough"? I don't.



"If I do end up building the center array/sub setup, could i still move my philips pc speakers to the rear channel and not use front channel? The panasonic floor speakers, and realistic bookshelf would still be side channel."


Huh? Do what?!



What are you trying to accomplish? Your plans make no sense whatsoever and it's not even 04/01.


Do you know what the Lirpa brand stands for?




.
 

New member
Username: Apsoul

Post Number: 5
Registered: Aug-11
Well as I stated, I've just started (about a week ago) looking into anything that you would consider even half way decent audio. I am a single father with a next to minimum wage job. I'm sorry I don't have hundreds of dollars to spend on a premium system. I am sure our ideas of quality sound are different as the best sound I have ever heard is the setup I have described at the top of my original post, however I do understand what quality sound could be.


When I asked if a 20hz-20khz capable amp was alright to accept the center/sub output from a computer, I wasn't sure if a sub amp had any special qualities or characteristics that qualifies it as a sub amp.



"Do you consider 150Hz or 191Hz "low enough"? I don't. "

I don't know, that is why I am asking, I wasn't sure if damage was only done to a driver when the frequencies sent to it were well below it's capabilities, or if damage occurred at 1hz below rated specs.(I still don't know at what frequency levels would be considered damaging in the originally posted scenario). What do you suggest as the most cost-efficient way to deal with this problem?



"If I do end up building the center array/sub setup, could i still move my philips pc speakers to the rear channel and not use front channel? The panasonic floor speakers, and realistic bookshelf would still be side channel."

I did state that I am not very well versed in the inner workings of surround sound decoding e.g. what signals get sent to different channels. I was asking that if I had a center channel speaker, a pair of side channel speakers positioned to the front left and front right, and another pair of side channel speakers directly to the sides of me, would I be better suited with the Philips SPA7210/17 as front channel or rear channel?



What I'm trying to accomplish is get the best sound out of the equipment I have, or for very little cost as I don't have very much money. I understand that a high quality home theater system is a costly endeavor, however I know that with the right knowledge and know-how, I could use what I already have to its fullest potential (which by your standards isn't much) and I will be content for at least a little while. I'm not trying to build a system that will rival yours or anybody's on this site, I'm not trying to build something that I could enter into a competition, nor am I trying to impress anybody with what I have.

I am just trying to get the best out of what I do have, and I would appreciate it if I didn't have condescending and completely unnecessary judgmental remarks from the likes of you. I didn't insult anybody here nor did I act as if I knew more than anybody. I just would like a little objective advice/help in an area that I don't have a great deal of knowledge in. If you feel that I'm too stupid for you to even reply, then please choose not to reply as opposed to tearing me down as if I spat in your face.

Thanks again for any help,
~Apsoul
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16560
Registered: May-04
.

"I am just trying to get the best out of what I do have, and I would appreciate it if I didn't have condescending and completely unnecessary judgmental remarks from the likes of you. I didn't insult anybody here nor did I act as if I knew more than anybody. I just would like a little objective advice/help in an area that I don't have a great deal of knowledge in. If you feel that I'm too stupid for you to even reply, then please choose not to reply as opposed to tearing me down as if I spat in your face."



Why don't you calm down and take a bit of advice. Getting insulting is not going to get anyone anywhere. Feeling you have been insulted isn't likely to result in good communication either. Your plans make no sense. OK? Until they begin to make sense, there's not much anyone can do for you no matter what your budget is.


"What do you suggest as the most cost-efficient way to deal with this problem?"



It would seem the first thing you need to do is figure out what your computer is outputting as far as channel assignments. Center is not the left channel and sub is not the right. So figure out what you have and then proceed from there. Can you actually output 5.1 sound from your computer? If not, then having more speakers doesn't matter.



"Current setup is as follows:
PC front: Philips SPA7210/17
PC side: output to Panasonic RA-6500 Receiver (A,B,A+B outputs; 80w)
A chan: Realistic MC-1800 (50w max, 8 1/4", 2 1/2")
B chan: Panasonic CS-R590 3-way Floorspeakers (150w max, 38-20k hz)"



This makes no sense. The "PC front" is a pair of computer speakers? And the "PC side" is a stereo receiver? With speakers attached to both the A and B switches? The "A and B" speaker outputs are producing exactly the same signal. So what are you trying to accomplish with this set up? You don't have surround capabilities and I'm not at all sure of what you have or what you want to do with it. How and where would you make a connection for a center channel when you're using a two channel amplifier? Do you see that you are not being clear about your intentions?


"I did state that I am not very well versed in the inner workings of surround sound decoding e.g. what signals get sent to different channels. I was asking that if I had a center channel speaker, a pair of side channel speakers positioned to the front left and front right, and another pair of side channel speakers directly to the sides of me, would I be better suited with the Philips SPA7210/17 as front channel or rear channel?"


I don't even know what sort of space you're trying to fill with this set up. Are you trying to fill an entire room? Or, are you trying to get surround sound from a computer while you're sittiing in front of the computer. You're upset that I asked you to explain but I can't help you, and neither can anyone else, if we have no idea what you want.


$1.50 speakers aren't worth anything more than $1.50. Buying materials for a line array and putting in the effort to construct anything around a half dozen of these drivers wouldn't make sense when you could easily buy a decent speaker for only a few dollars more. I can assure you I understand being on a tight budget. But when you are in that situation, you need to make the most sensible and logical choices, not just the most expedient. Logical and sensible means not wasting money on items that will never serve their intended purpose. Buying a bag of candy bars because they are cheap isn't a logical replacement for buying fruit and vegetables.



What you have is a stereo receiver - two channels. If you want to make the most of what you have for the least amount of money, take the two channel receiver and use the two channels as front left and right. Use your best speakers with that set up and save up for a better system in the future. Simply switch the outputs of your computer to eliminate everything other than those two channels and the processor will downmix everything into a two channel format. All the information will be there but without surround effects. Are they all that important to you vs. having better quality sound overall? You don't need a center channel, the center channel is only there to provide a wider seating area in a large room. Use the two front channles and then at a later date add two more speakers of similar quality or better for surround.

Parts Express has been touting a pair of high quality speakers for about $27 a piece. Can you set aside enough cash for a pair of speakers for about $60? Best Buy usually has a decent set of speakers for under $80 the pair. Either would be the better option than putting together all this mismatched "stuff". You can find a garage sale where someone wants to get rid of some haflway decent speakers for under $50. Still better than compiling lower quality stuff just to have more stuff. Start with two fronts, then add two rears and later a sub. Build the system using some half way decent products and items that tend to have similar sound and specifications. This makes a for a more successful conclusion than throwing together whatever you can find. Somewhere along the line you'll have to buy a HT receiver if you want surround. Or just stay with two decent speakers running off your stereo reciever. It makes more sense to buy fewer pieces of better quality gear than to simply have more gear of lesser value.

Another suggestion would be to buy a "sound bar"; http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=252-400

For $109 you would have surround sound output from a single purchase. This too would be a far more logical approach to achieving decent sound than is your mix and match package.




.
 

New member
Username: Apsoul

Post Number: 6
Registered: Aug-11
My computer has 4 3.5mm output jacks. Front, Side, Rear, Cen/Sub. That would be 7.1 correct?



"It would seem the first thing you need to do is figure out what your computer is outputting as far as channel assignments. Center is not the left channel and sub is not the right."

I had stated earlier that I hooked a set of computer speakers up to the Cen/Sub jack on the back of my computer just to see what would happen. The left speaker received the center channel signal, and the right speaker received the sub channel signal. Therefor (as far as the 3.5mm to rca cable is concerned, and the input/outputs of the receiver that i send such signals to) center would be "left" and sub would be "right". Am I missing something here?



"What you have is a stereo receiver - two channels. If you want to make the most of what you have for the least amount of money, take the two channel receiver and use the two channels as front left and right."

I understand that A and B channels are the same signal. I tried that setup, and it works for music, but when I try to watch a movie, the dialogue sounds terribly muddled, and is difficult to hear over the other sounds. I understand part of this problem is due to speaker placement, and the dimensions of my garage being 24' x 24' x 8'. I am well aware that those dimensions are nearly the worst I could have for quality audio, but once again it is what I have to work with.


When I set up the computer speakers as front channel, and both the floor and shelf speakers to side channel, I can hear and understand movie dialogue while still getting the effect of bullets zipping across the room, or an explosion off to the side. It's not full surround, but the sound is better than only using the front channel output to my receiver.


"center channel is only there to provide a wider seating area in a large room."

Yes, but my speakers from the receiver can't be placed any closer to my screen. They are off towards the sides of the room. From sitting position the angle between screen and each speaker is probably about 50-60 degrees. I know that this in less than desirable but it can't be changed, and is why I have them set up as the Side channel speakers.



"How and where would you make a connection for a center channel when you're using a two channel amplifier? Do you see that you are not being clear about your intentions?"

Sorry, I never mentioned that I have another 2 channel receiver that would have connected to the cen/sub output from my computer. This is, however, why I asked if there was anything special about an amp listed as a "sub amp".



"Another suggestion would be to buy a "sound bar""
"Best Buy usually has a decent set of speakers for under $80 the pair."

I don't want to just buy a speaker. A good part of me attempting to build something is because I want to learn how, I want to accomplish something (if it happens to be sub-par, then I learn from my mistakes and continue on), and if I can increase the quality of the sound in my garage at the same time, then awesome. If I can only accomplish increased volume with the same quality of sound, then that is ok too. Not my goal, but I could live with that.



I also never said that I was dead set on building the line array. I came here to ask for advice, and was immediately replied to in a very negative manner. I asked again about the same scenario because my questions weren't answered, and got a much more detailed and helpful response. Thank you.

Yes I am capable of saving money. However, I don't need super high quality sound. Given that these speakers are being set up in a garage with a concrete floor, 2 practically bare walls, and nearly the worst dimensions possible for good acoustics, a set of high-quality speakers would be a waste. Having speakers of deplorable quality is a waste as well as they won't do anything but make the existing setup sound even worse. This is why I asked about the buyout speakers I saw on Parts-express.


"Parts Express has been touting a pair of high quality speakers for about $27 a piece."

Speakers, or drivers? and with you saying they are "high quality" as opposed to just quality or decent, I may be tempted to buy them. Are there any drivers (brands or specific models) that you would suggest as a good bargain choice? I would prefer drivers that are better suited for a closed box design. Someone here suggested Dayton in another post.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16571
Registered: May-04
.

You don't tell me everything I need to know in order to help you and then you continue to say I have wronged you by asking you what you are trying to accomplish and what are you trying to hook up. You have absolutely everything about this system wrong - now you tell me the speakers have to be what? 24 feet apart? Well, actually, no, you haven't told me that either. But you're not making much money and your garage is lousy for audio and you don't want to just buy a speaker and so on and so on ... I know, it's what you have to work with. Maybe if you want decent sound, you'll have to come up with other ideas, huh? Just sayin' ...


I tell you what, I've told you about the PE speakers. Give them a call and see what they have to help you. That's what they get paid to do. As far as I can see you don't want assistance, you want excuses.

Good luck.
 

New member
Username: Apsoul

Post Number: 7
Registered: Aug-11
where did i say that you wronged me... I thanked you in my last post.

So you are going to tell me that a specific speaker exists on PE, that it is a good speaker, and at a good price, but you won't tell me what speaker it is. What excuses am I looking for, I asked what drivers are a good buy at a decent price? I'm not asking you to plan out my garage setup, but that is what you seem intent on doing. I thank you for the help, and I understand that you don't have the option of sitting in my garage and listening to how it sounds in there.
Also, if you could tell me what speakers you were talking about for 27 a piece, (speaker or driver) and confirm your statement that they were "high quality speakers" then I will be very interested in them. I would be hard pressed to build a low end speaker for $27. I would prefer to build a speaker, but would be kind of dumb to pass up that good of a deal (if they are as you said "high quality"). I would like to build a speaker whether I buy the $27 ones or not, and your personal opinion on which drivers are a good budget buy would be a wonderful help to me.



"You don't tell me everything I need to know in order to help you"

What specifically do you need to know in order for you to help me then? Because apparently I don't know, and you haven't told me what information you need.



"Maybe if you want decent sound, you'll have to come up with other ideas, huh? Just sayin' ..."

I stated in my last post that I'm not looking to get perfect sound quality out of this garage. I know that the garage isn't a good place for quality audio, and that is why I don't want to spend a fortune on audio equipment.



Look, I'm trying to work with you here, and give you the information you need, and details on what the scenario is that I'm trying to work with. But that doesn't seem to be good enough for you. So what exactly do I need to say in order to get your help, or anybody's help. Maybe that is where I need the most help, is understanding what I'm supposed to ask and what information I need in order for someone to help me.
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