Speakers - $3500 to $4000

 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 21
Registered: Apr-06
Hi folks,

Been a while since I posted but am about to embark on an upgrade. I currently own a pair of Totem Hawks that I've absolutely loved but have a larger room now and am in need of something a bit larger. I am considering the Forest but am curious to see what else is out there in that price range. My power consists of a Krell S300i integrated and source is Rega Apollo. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Steve
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 901
Registered: Dec-06
I don't know how your Krell sounds, but the impression I have from reviews is that it's weakness might be a slight lack of body and warmth. Not bright either I don't think, probably very authoritative and neutral, musical as well, and can drive the vast majority of speakers with ease, but just a little on the cold side. I personally would want to hear it driving a set of PMC FB1i. The PMC transmission line produces awesome bass, and their new soft dome treble is one of the best I've heard. Very clean and open, with not the least bit of fatigue.

The Totem Forest would be gorgeous in cherry finish though. Totem is a brand I've barely listened to, but one I'd really love to hear more of in the future.

As always, try before you buy, if at all possible.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1194
Registered: Jul-07
Stephen, are you just trying to have more of what you have (ie sound quantity) or are you trying to improve some sound qualities as well ?

Also, a word of caution. Totem speakers are not universal in their presentation. That is to say, they don't have a house sound that's consistent up and down their line of speakers. Moving up the line you may get a quite different presentation.....for better or worse.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 22
Registered: Apr-06
I have really enjoyed the hawks as I said before but am looking for something that will fill a room a little more effortlessly. I listen to probably 80% rock and jazz with the rest being classical. I guess I'm really looking for a speaker that does rock with finesse. I've absolutely had my eye on PMC as well as ATC. Unfortunately they're a bit out of my price range for the specs I'm looking for. Will the PMC's fill a larger room?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 23
Registered: Apr-06
I'm also considering losing the Krell although it's been fine for me. I really like the integrated amps from Luxman.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 902
Registered: Dec-06
PMC tends to be sensitive (easy to drive to loud volumes) and, I'm guessing are similar in size to the Forest (that's why I mentioned the FB1i). As far as I know, ATC presents more of a challenge for an amp. I guess the PMC is maybe $500 over budget. The Kudos C2 may be another option.

If you are considering an amp change too, you need to ensure the new amp matches up well with your Apollo and your new speakers. But if you like the Krell, personally I would first try to see if you can find the sound you like with it and a new set of speakers. So far you've identified the speakers as needing to be larger, with more room filling sound. If you have your heart set on Luxman, a logical step is to visit a dealer and hear the amp on several of their speakers.

I'm sure most of us here would recommend listening to as many speakers as you can and figuring out what kind of sound you like best. Do you know what's available in your area? If at the end you end up liking PMC best, you might want to either save up a bit more until you can afford them, or perhaps find a used or dealer demo model that would fit into your budget.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 24
Registered: Apr-06
I'm already leaning towards the PMC. I'm fascinated by the transmission line technology and the fact that it will get down to about 28hz. I'll probably save up to get them as we're taking our time to move. Thanks so much for the recommendation.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 903
Registered: Dec-06
Try to listen to it first before buying...an in home trial if possible, to hear if it works in your system and in your room. You never know - you could hate the sound! I have bought enough components, only to decide I wanted to move on.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 25
Registered: Apr-06
It's very difficult to audition PMC as I don't have a dealer in the vicinity. Unfortunately the Wilsons, B&W and all the other marketing giants are preeminent. I like the sensitivity and bass response of the FB1i and am only concerned about the soft dome tweeter as I've become accustomed to metal domes. Will there be a noticeable difference or are they just as revealing.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Stamford, Connecticut USA

Post Number: 4303
Registered: May-05
To further Dan's comments, PMCs are excellent speakers. They're not a universal recommendation though. There are people out there who don't like them or just don't get what they do.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15754
Registered: May-04
.

"I currently own a pair of Totem Hawks that I've absolutely loved but have a larger room now and am in need of something a bit larger."

"I have really enjoyed the hawks as I said before but am looking for something that will fill a room a little more effortlessly."



Can you explain what "fill a room a little more effortlessly" actually means? Are you clipping the 150 watt Krell? What specifically is lacking and at what volume?

What has made you decide speakers are the answer?



.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 904
Registered: Dec-06
Both metal and soft domes can sound great...it all depends on the execution. I think there are many soft dome speakers that are very revealing, and I personally don't think PMC is lacking in that department.

I don't have enough experience listening to know for certain whether there are any differences that are consistent between soft domes and metal domes. Many think metal domes sound harsh, but other say it depends on execution. I've heard entry level soft dome tweeters that were harsh, and my Tannoy DC6 features metal tweeters that definitely aren't. But they do have a very clear, almost shimmering sound (on piano for example) that my old soft dome Quad 12L2 don't seem to have. I don't know if being a metal tweeter has anything to do with that. I suspect it may, and I suspect that might be what you like about the Hawks.

It's been too long since I've heard the PMC TB2i for me to remember if it had that kind of sound in the highs.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1262
Registered: Oct-10
You're right Dan, soft and metal domes can sound good or bad depending on execution. "Mother of sound" is website where a person or group of people insist that all drivers in a speaker should be cone type with paper cones and paper coil formers. They also insist on wood phase plugs in all drivers. I grew up on paper cones w/paper coil formers some sounded great, some sounded like crap and some were mediocre. I've heard various other types of drivers made from different materials, again, execution. Of course room accoustics, placement, etc make a difference too.

The Yamahas I had used clothe domes and sounded great. The Sonys also had clothe. They were marginal. The Omnis have titanium domes and sound better than the Yamahas.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 905
Registered: Dec-06
I've heard the opinion that whatever material a speaker designer chooses, it it should be the same for both tweeter and woofer. On the surface it makes sense. If you are handing off from a paper cone to a metal tweeter, the different materials can make the crossover from one to the other all the more noticeable. They will exhibit different sound characteristics around the crossover point. Perhaps a designer can get around this possible problem fairly easily, not really sure. Certainly a lot of speaker do not use the same material.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 26
Registered: Apr-06
My only problem with the hawks was the sensitivity (86-87db). They had a tendency to get muddy when the volume got up there a bit. Now I'm not a head banger but there are occasions when I want it a little louder and a little cleaner. The Krell is not the problem as I've paired it with quite a few different speakers. It has power and grip but there is a ceiling with the hawks.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1263
Registered: Oct-10
I'm sure a lot of math goes into design followed by trial and error. The Yamahas had paper cone mids and poly cone woofers with their soft dome tweeters. The The Omnis have poly cone woofers with their titanium domes. I'm glad I didn't have to work out those calculations!

In the nineties, people always said "You can't mix tubes with transistors when bi-amping and tri-amping speakers." I laughed because I'd heard speakers tri-amped successfully in the 80s using transistors for woofers & mids and tubes for tweeters.

A lot of things seem black & white on paper, but the real world can tell a very different story.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Stamford, Connecticut USA

Post Number: 4306
Registered: May-05
Stephen,

Not sure how big your room is or how loud you need things to be. I know you're not looking for obnoxious sound levels, but a bigger room can demand more volume for the same room fillingness, so to speak.

ATC's speakers go very loud and can fill a big space very well. Even the smallest standmounts do this. The drawback to ATCs is they need a ton of power. For a lot of people, the most common drawbacks are that ATCs also need a lot of breathing room and need to play at a higher volume level to open up and sound their best. I think a bigger room may very well eliminate those concerns.

ATCs are expensive. The towers may very well be out of your price range. However, their standmounts will outperform most others' towers in this regard. Just because they're small doesn't mean they can't fill a room or go low in bass. The bass frequency specs in any speaker aren't something that should be a determining factor. Bass is very room dependent.

If you have an ATC dealer around, speak to them and see what they have to say. They should at least let you bring in your amp to try it with the speakers. Better yet, they may allow you to take home a pair to try out with a credit card deposit.

None of this is saying you'll like the ATC sound. Some love it, some hate it. ATC and PMC aren't all that different in sound IMO. One thing I really like about ATC is their ability to play very loud without breaking up/compressing the sound. Not that I like my music that loud either.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Stamford, Connecticut USA

Post Number: 4307
Registered: May-05
The larger B&Ws may fit the bill too. 700 series I believe. Not sure about prices. I've heard them fill larger rooms nicely. Again, whether or not they're your sonic cup of tea is a personal thing. They're different sounding from what's been mentioned.

Sonus Fabers may also fit the bill.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1264
Registered: Oct-10
I've never heard B&W 700s, but if they're even close to as loud as the 800s, they'll do!
 

Gold Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 1190
Registered: May-05
Stephen,

Having done exactly what you're doing here recently, although admittedly without the opportunity to hear as many speakers as you will be able to, I suggest that you give the Salksound speakers a listen. There are 2 speakers worth hearing - the SongTowers are about 1/2 of your budget and the HT2-TLS, which I purchased are probably slightly over your budget. However, you can listen to both of them in the North Carolina area. Go to the Salksound forums and contact any of the following to get a listen:

NORTH CAROLINA

adydula Raleigh, NC SongTowers
rahimlee54 Greensboro, NC HT2-TL

No, I don't work for Jim Salk or Salksound and they may not be your cup of tea but the sound is excellent and WAF on these speakers is over the top. Good luck in your search. Dave
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15756
Registered: May-04
.

"My only problem with the hawks was the sensitivity (86-87db). They had a tendency to get muddy when the volume got up there a bit. Now I'm not a head banger but there are occasions when I want it a little louder and a little cleaner. The Krell is not the problem as I've paired it with quite a few different speakers. It has power and grip but there is a ceiling with the hawks."



The Hawks are, from what Totem claims, an 88dB speaker at a nominal six Ohms. Are the Hawks a difficult speaker to drive? I didn't think they were. Your amp produces a bit more power into six Ohms compared to eight Ohms so moving to a speaker spec'd at 90dB and eight Ohms might not provide any significant change in the "little louder and a little cleaner" aspect of performance. Particularly when you're going from a 5.5" two way to a 6.5" two way. None of those are numbers that provide enough information to make a judgement - listening will do that - but the numbers certainly indicate you might want to look at either more of a change in raw specs or possibly make better use of your system than just changing speakers.

Information is still lacking as to just how big the room size is and just what "little louder and a little cleaner" actually means but you might find what you're looking for by doing some room treatments to the space to minimize compression and an overall raucous sound as things get loud. Not as much fun as buying new speakers but probably in the long run more productive. You might even begin by doing a different speaker placement set up according to a different plan. Certainly, how the speakers load into the space is a prime factor in what you perceive at your chair - and you might want to move that chair around too. Again, not as much fun as new speakers but cheaper and more productive as a start. Do you have the Hawks spiked to the floor?



So, if you've tried the amp with other speakers and have determined the amp is satifactory, why not just buy a pair of the speakers that gave you the results you desire?

Have you considered adding a powered sub to the system and relieving a bit of stress from that 5.5" mid/bass driver?



.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 27
Registered: Apr-06
Thanks for the responses guys. I love the way the Hawks sound at low volumes and would love to find something similar that outputs a little more without breaking up. The Hawks seem to really strain past 75-80db and are quite power hungry. I've spoken with Vince at Totem and he states they are closer to 8ohms. They use claws to decouple the speakers and instead of spikes they use steel balls. Our new room is about 18X18. Anyone have experience with Wilmslow and their ATC kits?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 28
Registered: Apr-06
The speakers I auditioned with the Krell consisted of Magico (completely out of my price range) V2's that were awesome and the Totem Forest, which I liked but didn't love.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15757
Registered: May-04
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Power hungry? At 88dB and eight ohms? That would be a very unusual speaker that "strained" at about one watt input. If that's the case, there's likely to be more going on here.


What's Vince at Totem suggest?


Even if two speakers are identical in impedance and phase (which will never be the case), the 2dB specified difference between speakers (Hawks & PMC's) probably isn't enough to notice. As you should note, specs aren't necessarilly truthful. That's not to take you off auditioning the PMC's, they have many good qualities that you might enjoy. But making small changes typically only results in making small gains. That would suggest you need to rethink something here. None of the speakers suggested so far will top 90dB which wouldn't suggest big changes in "loud and clean" volume based on that spec alone. If this review (http://www.stereophile.com/content/totem-acoustic-forest-loudspeaker-measurement s) is to be believed, the Forest is still just an 86dB speaker though it's a pretty easy load for any amplifier. The V2's are still only 87dB (not enough difference to notice) but a much more difficult load - though the Krell should be able to deal with a four Ohm speaker system. At $18k per pair, I suppose you do get something for the extra 15 thousand. Did you audition the Magico and the Forest in this room with your amp?

Is the room actually close to being equal dimensions all around? If so, that could be your problem with the Hawks. And, if so, then room treatments are where you should head first. Any 86-88dB speaker at eight Ohms should be able to fill any 324 square foot room when there are 150+ watts available. (http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html Did you have problems with the Hawks playing loud enough and clean enough before you got to this room?


So, what are you thinking you need to change to? What's Vince at Totem suggest? Buy their more expensive speaker?



.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 29
Registered: Apr-06
I only spoke to Vince one time and that was when I was in the fact finding stages of buying the speaker and that was just pure luck as their customer service was clogged and he answered the phone. I'm obviously going to wait until I have the speaker situated in my next room before looking to upgrade. The dimensions of my current room is uneven in the sense that there are stairs that sound is probably escaping and other architectural issues. You may be right, room treatment may be an option. I certainly don't want to spend the money if unnecessary but I have had my eye on the PMC line of speakers for a long time and just wanted an honest opinion of the FB1i because it's in my price range.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15758
Registered: May-04
.

That sounds like a plan so far. In the meantime give the PMC's a listen. Like Stu said, some people get the PMC sound and some don't. If it's the TL technology you're after, that's pretty easy to come by elsewhere. All the other models suggested are good speakers worth an audition too but I'd still say you need to rethink "loud and clean" without making a more dramatic change. Otherwise, it's more of a lateral move than a forward progression IMO. But, then, I've never heard the Hawks with a Krell, so what do I know?



"I'm also considering losing the Krell although it's been fine for me. I really like the integrated amps from Luxman."


Luxman, huh?

How come? That's not a name that comes up for discussion much. Do you like their technology? Their sound? Or, just ready for a change?


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15759
Registered: May-04
.

At 104dB these fill up rooms in ever sense of the word; http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000EI3TZ6
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 906
Registered: Dec-06
Jan, would the larger dimensions of the FB1i, and larger driver, not allow it to sound more effortless and more room filling than the Hawks? Add in PMC's greater sensitivity and also the fact that they tend to be easy for amps to drive (and are probably easier than Totem)...I would think all of this taken together might make a noticeable difference.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1265
Registered: Oct-10
So far, my favorite suggestion is Jan's for a powered subwoofer (surprise, surprise). A pair of 5.5" mid/bass drivers is not IMO, adequate for a 18 x 18 room. I would imagine such drivers would strain under such conditions. If you can filter some of the deep bass away from them(that which is handled by the sub), you should notice a cleaner sound.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 30
Registered: Apr-06
I heard the Luxman 505-U paired with the Totem Forest and I liked that it had tone controls. I like the Klipsch and I know they received a nice review from Stereophile but the bass response, if as listed, seems a bit less than what I would like. I would probably be more inclined to go with a Cornwall as it's direct radiating. Like I said, I'm very interested in transmission line speakers. Are there others out there that I may be missing?
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1195
Registered: Jul-07
http://www.brinesacoustics.com/Products.html
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 909
Registered: Dec-06
Thanks for the link, Chris. Never heard of Brine before. The FT-2000 looks pretty cool. I know Rega used to make transmission line speakers. I see a used pair come up now and again.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15763
Registered: May-04
.

On the commercial front TL's are not in favor at the moment. They are more complicated to properly build than a simple rectangular box made up of a single slab of MFB cut to the veneer with a CNC cutter and then folded up and glued into an enclosure. The math for TL's is quite simple and very repeatable - particularly when you get the hang of Martin King's MathCad programs; http://quarter-wave.com/ However, due to the length of the pipe being a specific fraction of the longest wavelength you wish to reproduce, the final product tends toward fairly good size; http://www.quarter-wave.com/Gallery/Gallery.html Commercially the only other current manufacturer I'm aware of who does nothing but TL's or some variant of a TL would be Fried; http://www.friedproducts.com/products.html Bud Fried was the original designer behind the IMF line (which has ceased to exist to my knowledege) though the IMF and the current Fried line are intended to do differnt things. If you're looking for loud and clean and you don't have 1k watt available, pass on the IMF's for anything other than a listen if given the opportunity. We used to demo the big IMF's againt the Klipschorn just to make the point of sensitivity being important. Using the Telarc Firebird the IMF's would peg the meters on a McIntosh 300 watt amp. The same passage on the Horns hit maybe 20 watts and made your pants legs shake. (The LaScala is a similar design to the CornerHorn with identical drivers/crossover, etc. and is meant as the speaker to buy when you do not have corners to fit the Klipschorn. The Cornball, on the other hand, is not a folded horn and is IMO meant only to play loud and have lots of midbass. YMMV)

You will have to search out Fried systems as they are not widely distributed. But, if you want the real deal in TL's and a brand to make your audiophile friends sit up and take notice, Fried is where you begin.

The internet is doing a brisk buisness in TL based speakers. With the advances in low wattage triode or pentode based tube amplifiers the need for high sensitivity speakers and/or speaker systems with good bass response while maintaining good coherence has brought about a number of on line designers who do mostly TL or horn based systems. Horns do different things than TL's and, if you think TL's can get big, wait till you see a horn loaded system that can really produce deeeeeep bass; http://passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn.pdf

A search engine should be able to lead you to any number of TL designers who either have systems to sell or who will do a custom build for your system. Try diyaudio's loudspeaker pages for other sources; http://diyaudioprojects.com/links.htm Kind of like a biker bar for geeks, that's where these guys hang out to discuss cascaded second order Butterworth filters. Then they show off their creations at something like the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest each year; http://audiofest.net/2010/index.php

Bob Brines (Chris' link) has IMO an excellent line of speakers available. I would recommend you contact him for more information.

A simple search for any of the common single driver manufacturers will produce some results with TL's in mind. Try Fostex, Lowther, Audience and so forth; http://www.quarter-wave.com/Gallery/Gallery.html


That should get you started.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1196
Registered: Jul-07
The Tang Bang drivers Bob is using in some of his designs now are really tempting. All of the presence and midrange magic of the Fostex driver, but sans the shout, and considerably more boogie. The DIY forums are all a-buzz about the W8-1772. Not to mention, the driver looks killer.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 911
Registered: Dec-06
Prices look very reasonable as well.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 31
Registered: Apr-06
Thanks everyone. Great suggestions.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15768
Registered: May-04
.

"Both metal and soft domes can sound great...it all depends on the execution. I think there are many soft dome speakers that are very revealing, and I personally don't think PMC is lacking in that department.

I don't have enough experience listening to know for certain whether there are any differences that are consistent between soft domes and metal domes. Many think metal domes sound harsh, but other say it depends on execution."



Consistent differences between fabric and metal dome drivers tend to be in the break up modes and the resonant modes. It's very difficult to make a fabric dome behave as a perfect piston at frequencies above about 15kHz. At higher frequencies and most particularly at higher volume levels fabric domes tend to distort their shape which leads to break up and a subsequent irregularity in frequency response. However, the resonant frequencies of fabric domes are well damped which trades off one set of problems for another when compared to metal dome drivers.

Metal domes tend to behave in a more ideal pistonic manner when driven at higher volume levels than will fabric domes yet all metal domes have inherently high levels of ringing very much like a bell struck by a mallet. Depending upon the material used for the dome the resonance of the driver tends to be placed either at the limits of the recognized audible range of hearing or a few thousand Hertz further up. Aluminum domes have a rather low resonant frequency/high mass for a metal dome while titanium, berylium and other exotic materials progressively move further up in frequency. Over the years the ability to perform vapor deposition of materials on a substrate have raised the stiffness to mass ratio of most good metal dome tweeters. Hoever, it is more than just what materials are used which make the dome drivers significantly different in sound quality. How the dome is terminated at the surround material and the ability of the voice coil to operate in a linear fashion within the magnetic field of the motor will make for quite large differences in the final product. Staying with dome drivers the Bowers and Wilkins diamond tweeters are probably the best examples of technology in audio; http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Discover/Discover/Technologies/Diamond_Tweeters.ht ml Certainly measurements would suggest the B&W drivers are superior in extending high frequency response without the problems of lesser metal domes. Measurements though do not always account for acceptable sound quality.


A very acceptable alternative to fabric, plastic, paper and metal/diamond domes tweeters would be a ribbon driver; http://hd-audio.orpheusweb.co.uk/info.html


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1198
Registered: Jul-07
Integration of ribbon tweeters creates it's own set of challenges though doesn't it Jan ? I think I've read in a few places where the characteristics of ribbon tweets makes them difficult (not impossible) to integrated well with traditional main drivers. I don't recall the reason, but I thought it had something to do with the characteristics of them being so different from traditional dome tweeters.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15769
Registered: May-04
.

"Jan, would the larger dimensions of the FB1i, and larger driver, not allow it to sound more effortless and more room filling than the Hawks? Add in PMC's greater sensitivity and also the fact that they tend to be easy for amps to drive (and are probably easier than Totem)...I would think all of this taken together might make a noticeable difference."


Dan, it's really impossible to determine how a driver will react just by looking at raw numbers and most especially since the raw numbers a speaker systems manufacturer provides are so lacking in real world meaning. There are significant parameters which can be found in the T/S values of a woofer which can lead a designer to select one driver over another. There are no such T/S parameters for midrange and high frequency drivers. Occasionally you might find a comparison of drivers in the diy arena but those are always subject to the tastes and equipment of the person doing the comparison. On the other hand, certain drivers are know to exhibit certain tendencies through extensive use and thus become favorites of designers for various reasons. Durability certainly has its place in most commercial designs.

There are also prevalent problems and solutions to be found in specific crossovers and enclosure types. A true transmission line enclosure loads the driver very differntly than will a typical vented enclosure. The damping of the driver's rear wave is much more akin to that of a sealed enclsoure when you look at the operation of a TL compared to a conventional bass reflex system. Group delay is substantially lower in the TL as is the distortion component as the rear wave is effectively damped by the time it exits at the TL's vent while group delay and port noises are difficult to eliminate in most vented systems that operate over more than a narrow band of frequencies in, say, a subwoofer. These are typically reasons that draw a designer to a TL vs a simple box with a hole. However, there are quite a few variations in TL design and technically the term "TL" is almost an anachronism in today's designs where hybrids and computer modeled systems abound.

There are ways around the issues of a simple vented system and designers can find many attractions in that simple vented box. To counter that along with the box itself the crossover type and order chosen can make for more noticeable problems or solutions to driver integration than another filter type or order. So the art of speaker design is essentially the ability to look at all of the available options and make a determination which individual qualities are acceptable and which are less so in order to make a system that hits a design target. As mentioned in the above post it is not just the material or the size of the driver that accounts for its sound quality but ever facet of the driver's quality contributes something to the final mix. Whether the designer selected a driver because it was a favorite or a curiosity and then built a system around the driver will result in a different final product than would a design which began more with the type of enclosure desired and the filters used and then went to finding a driver well suited to those goals. As we discussed a bit in the "Time and Phase Coherent Loudspeakers" thread there are several ways to accomplish much the same goals but each will provide a distinct advantage/disadvantage set of trade offs. Just as some 40 watt amplifiers provide a sound quality that would seem to play louder, cleaner, clearer, etc. than other 100 watt amplifiers, the "loud and clean" factor of a speaker system can be quite different depending on the skill set and the goals of any one designer and where they apportion their budgets. On the whole though, all things being as equal as possible a 88dB speaker system is unlikely to have that "loud and clean" quality in as much abundance as a 100dB system. "Loud and clean" though are merely subjective values and we will each tend towards finding acceptable and unacceptable trades in each design. The best of luck with that, some people go through speakers rather often while others find suitable systems and sometimes stay with them for decades.



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Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15771
Registered: May-04
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"Integration of ribbon tweeters creates it's own set of challenges though doesn't it Jan ? I think I've read in a few places where the characteristics of ribbon tweets makes them difficult (not impossible) to integrated well with traditional main drivers. I don't recall the reason, but I thought it had something to do with the characteristics of them being so different from traditional dome tweeters."


Probably the real answer to your question, Chris, is going to be found in a more advanced and far more experienced speaker designer's opinion. That isn't what I really do. I do think if you asked that question of a serious designer you might get the answer that each and every driver presents its own unique characteristics to "playing well with others". There are just so many considerations a high quality speaker system requires that focus not so much on the on paper measurements but tend more towards the talent of the designer and just how they want to go about their craft. Certainly, through the years in audio there have been numerous designers who have developed the reputation of being able to coax just that little bit of magic from a bunch of parts that will always set their creations apart from the rest.

To be more to the point of your post though ribbon tweeters on the whole do have some charcateristics which are peculiar to their type. Fortunately, computer modelling and a far better understanding of the psycho-acoutics of sound perception have made many of those early, typical problems of ribbons far less of a concern today. But on average, you'll still find ribbon tweeters are not going to have similar resonance and distortion characteristics to a common dymanic low/mid frequency driver made from materials disimilar to that of the ribbon. This problem alone could make crossover selection more important as certain crossover types and filter orders will have an effect on the lobing of the combined drivers which could result is one driver having a very distinct "sound" to a listener who expects a "plop and play" speaker system. If a designer is fond of first order filters, the selection of a dependable ribbon with a low frequency cut off suitable to a -6dB rollout is likely to push prices upward. Add to that the dispersion pattern of a typical ribbon system is far less able to provide the wide sweet spot of even a lower priced dome driver so this could be a consideration when mating ribbons to more conventional drivers. Most ribbons will require both an electrical transformer at the input to match impedance values and an acoustic transformer (a horn or waveguide) at its output to control dispersion and frequency response so as to perform well within a more conventional system design. These aren't issues other drivers wouldn't also present in the context of certain systems but, to a designer new to ribbons, they might be somewhat overwhelming in their complexity. On the otherhand, I would guess ribbons and air motion transformers and so forth tend more towards the designers with greater levels of curiosity and a broader experience in more conventional systems. For the most part, the talent and the art of most design is having the ability to take what others might consider a "mistake" or a "difficulty" and knowing how to judge the eventual outcome of the project so the "mistake" can turn into an asset. I don't think that's a virtue most desingers of anything have in abundance but when someone with those skills and that sort of talent approach the unconventional it is with their eyes open and their minds working at full blast. That's when the magic happens.


Does that answer your question?


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Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15772
Registered: May-04
.

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_236&products_id=83 24
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2035
Registered: Oct-07
That is one serious tweeter and at 500$ per, not for amateurs or the faint of heart.

Magnepan's 55" tall ribbon is also well regarded. They will not only sell you 'tweeter guards' for shipping safely, but rebuild kits for those unfortunate enough to wreck the ribbon. The ribbon is generally considered a fuse saver.
The ribbon kit contains 3 new drivers, so you can rebuild a pair of ribbons and have either a spare or wreck one figuring out how to do the job.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1200
Registered: Jul-07
"Does that answer your question? "

Yes, thanks. I'll have to see if I can find some of the articles I was reading about this. I've also browsed through some spirited discussions on DIY forums on the topic.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1280
Registered: Oct-10
I heard a pair of speakers a couple of years ago that had ribbon tweeters. I don't recall who made them, but they sounded pretty darn good for being under $200 each provided you were on axis. The dispesion was not very good, so if moved even a little off axis, the highs all but dissappeared. This seems to be due to the fact that the ribbons were actually set back about an inch into the cabinets. They didn't stay on the market very long. However, aside from this unusually narrow sweet spot, if they sounded as good as they did at >$200 each, I'd imagine high end speakers with ribbons would have amazing sound quality.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2039
Registered: Oct-07
Proving almost conclusively that RadioShackup customers are not interested in 'better' sound::
http://www.stereophile.com/content/radioshack-optimus-pro-lx5-loudspeaker
Even Stereophile gave them a passing grade, due in no small part to the tweeter.
Customers? Stayed away in droves. No Longer Available.
The Tweeter? Available somewhere as an aftermarket / DIY item.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15774
Registered: May-04
.

This might prove an interesting read; http://www.vonschweikert.com/techspecs/documents/positive_feedback_vr33.pdf

Von Scweikert has been around about the same length of time as Vandersteen and Thiel yet the line has remained more a cult favorite than a broadly known name amongst audiophiles. It's unlikely you'll see Von Scweikert products being sold by Audio Advisor. There's quite a bit to digest here; "quasi-transmission line", first order electrical filters which act as fourth order acoustic filters, felt damping of the baffle, fabric domes, custom drivers from European sources, etc. Von Schweikert has used mostly TL technology in some form or other and ribbon drivers in many of his designs. There's also a brief discussion of Von Scweikert's adaptations/treatments to a driver to accomplish better dynamic performance without break up. And, since this is a thread about speakers between $3500 and $4500, this particular system sells for roughly that price range.

Also, on driver treatments and enclosure design; http://www.stereotimes.com/speak111209.shtml



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Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1285
Registered: Oct-10
Yes Jan, that certainly is an interesting read. This is certainly a man with passion for sound quality.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1286
Registered: Oct-10
Yes Jan, that certainly is an interesting read. This is certainly a man with passion for sound quality.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_g

Charlotte, North Carolina United States

Post Number: 32
Registered: Apr-06
I finally decided to go with the Totem Forest. It sounded great at the showroom and even better in my listening room as the dealer let me take a pair home on loan. I also received a fantastic deal. As much as I liked the Hawks, the Forest is much more dynamic and I don't feel as much need to hold back as I did with the Hawks. Perfect match IMO with the Krell. I'm glad I waited to find what I was looking for. Thanks for all of the helpful advice. I also have a Rega Mira 3 that would like some nice bookshelf speakers in the $1000-$1500 range for the bedroom. Suggestions?
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 922
Registered: Dec-06
Congrats on the new speakers.

The suggestion I have in the $1,000-$1,500 price range is the Tannoy Revolution DC6. I have a pair now and they sound amazing. I'm certain the Mira 3 would be able to drive them quite easily. They have superb imaging, great clarity, and excellent pace and dynamics. Nice fullness and weight to the lows without sounding over done. $1,400 in Canada probably means about $1,200 in the U.S. A good set of stands and bi-wiring will get the best sound out of them.

As your Totem Forest experience I'm sure told you, best to try them out if at all possible so that you know for sure that you will like the sound.

Another possibility is the Rega RS1, which should be a natural match for your amp and would come in under budget.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Stamford, Connecticut USA

Post Number: 4326
Registered: May-05
Here's what I'd do with some spare cash laying around...

Buy the Rega DAC for $1k to replace the Apollo in the main system, move the Apollo to the Mira 3 system, and buy a pair of RS1s for that system.

I just got the Rega DAC about 2 weeks ago. Far better than the Apollo in every way, while still retaining that great Rega sound.
 

Gold Member
Username: T_bomb25

Aurora, Colorado United States

Post Number: 2269
Registered: Jun-05
A pair of John Blue JB8's would work a treat for ya....
 

New member
Username: Audiophonix

Post Number: 1
Registered: Mar-11
For the Rega I would strongly recommend you audition the Proac Reference 8 signatures. You might even end up more time listening to this setup than the primary one.

IMHO, for under $4,000 you will be hard pressed to beat the following speakers if connected properly:
1. Box designs - Proac Response D18
2. Open baffle/Diapole - Magnaplanar 1.7
=======================================
Ex-step:
B&W 805S with original stands
Primare A30.1
Nad Cd-521 Bee

Current Equipment:
Jadis Orchestra Reference Integrated (Tube)
Marantz PM 88 SE-a Class A integrated (SS)
Proac Response D18
Dynaudio Contour 1.1
Altec Lansing 604-8g Voice of the theatre (retro)
Garrad 401 Turntable (showpiece)
STD Turntable (showpiece)
Naim Cd5XS
Shunyata Diamondback and copperhead power cables
Shunyata Hydra 2 conditioner
Transparent Audio Ultra RCA ICs
Proac signature Black speaker cables (bi-wired)
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