Anyone for a speaker experiment?
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3106 Registered: Nov-05 | This came about because of something I recently read. This is a cheap (unlike the kind I read about) tweak that I hope you guys will try and place your findings (if any) on this thread. If anyone knows about this, please keep it to yourselves until the results come in. I'm not going to hint about what it does for the sake of individual unbiased reporting. [grin] From some insulated copper speaker wire, make a pair of runs (or two pair for bi-wired speakers) about 8 or 10 inches in length. Strip at one end and connect to the negative (black) speaker terminal(s) on each pair of speakers, leaving the existing speaker wires connected as usual. In other words you are creating a pigtail wire coming off your speaker's negative terminals. Listen to your set-up for a decent amount of time, trying various pieces of music and please report back when and if you have come to any conclusions. I will offer a link to what this is all about when your reports have come in. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14857 Registered: Dec-04 | Next week for a tryout M.R. What does it do??? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3107 Registered: Nov-05 | That's the point - I'd like you guys to report what you hear or don't hear. I'm not going to hint about what it does for the sake of individual unbiased reporting (smiley) |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3109 Registered: Nov-05 | You could also try a loop, using about 8 inches to make a looped piece of about 4 inches. If anyone has multi-stranded magnet wire, they might like to give it a try as well. I'm going to experiment with this a little more myself -depending on what is available. Just to point out - I'm not searching for something to improve my music, it's already sounding wonderful. What I'm trying to do is to see what results come in, and compare with the results I get and go from there. This is based loosly on a product I read about that costs far more than what the materials suggest. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 593 Registered: Dec-06 | How would this work? So you take the bare wire and attach it. If using banana plugs then the plug would not insert fully because the bare wire is in the way. But I guess it would be touching the bare wire, which is securely connected, and the signal would travel through the bare wire. Or am I not understanding? What if you already use bare wire? Do you have to terminate the new cable, or simply attach a second bare wire to the negative terminal? |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2197 Registered: Oct-04 | In Australia they have this very strong brew - which, when swallowed in larger quantities, produces strange urgings - such as "if I make an antenna, I can use my speakers as a broadcasting station - maybe even become famous!" Hmmm. . . . . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3110 Registered: Nov-05 | Well Dan, in my post I did suggest insulated wire, but a run of bare stranded wire may be okay, but you need to prevent corrosion. I believe - no others believe - the product I am basing this upon uses multiple strands of magnet wire. I have had a result with a single unlooped run of thin stranded insulated copper wire. I used the stripped end into the bare wire hole in the speaker terminal, then I re-inserted my banana plug as per usual. You can do whatever works for you. This is just an experiment based upon a few reviews of the original product. I take or leave the technical explanations as the results are what matters. Sorry to be vague, but at this stage it's best left a bit of a mystery to gather people's unbiased views. Okay, re-reading your post I gather you just meant the bare wire of the stripped end. Sorry. Larry, we do have some great strong brews here downunder, but alas, my days of drinking them are past. Well, a little now and then I guess if the truth be told. [Smiley] |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3111 Registered: Nov-05 | I made looped pigtails this afternoon just for fun. I got some braided copper speaker wire, split it into single runs, cut to 9 inches, stripped a half inch off each end, folded and connected to spades. The results seem much the same as the single runs but perhaps just a shade or two different. For anyone interested pics below.    |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 595 Registered: Dec-06 | Okay, re-reading your post I gather you just meant the bare wire of the stripped end. Sorry. No worries! Yup, definitely meant just the bare end and not the entire run. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3773 Registered: Feb-07 | Thanks for the pics M.R. Been wondering about this, but been WAY too busy to try it out for myself. Anyone give it a go yet? What happens if you dangle the dongle on the hot side? Bad idea? |
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 180 Registered: Mar-06 | is this what are we talking about? http://www.stereotimes.com/comm031810.shtml |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3776 Registered: Feb-07 | M.R. just saved us $150.00! Does it work? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3112 Registered: Nov-05 | Pablo, I asked if someone knew what this was about to keep to themselves as I was looking for unbiased reports. That's now out the window. Does it work? Let say something happens. The degree of which this is a benefit or the opposite may depend on lengths, type of wire, equipment and ears [grin]. There is certainly more to the manufactured one than the ones I made, but my view is to some degree wires is wires. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2199 Registered: Oct-04 | Wires is wires, M.R.? Well - that's pretty much been my argument for a long time. With that in what's left of my mind, I followed along like a good dawg - cut some wire and inserted it in the negative connection on the speakers. Sat back. Listened. Took off the wires. Listened. Put the wires back on, slightly bent. Listened. Took off the wires. Listened. Looped the wires. Listened. Took off the wires. Listened. This was getting pretty boring! So I read the article, and remember all of my testing of CD Stoplight, and how a very few people heard a very small improvement. Me thinks I heard an even smaller improvement in sound with my new speaker "earrings." I'll surely give this more of a whirl once our house guests leave on Monday. He's an engineer with Motorola, so I'll run the thangs by him and see what he hears, or doesn't hear. At least I won't feel so alone. . . .GRIN At least he'll surely understand "ground plane." After all, he designs electronic stuff for the Military. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3113 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, I think you should leave them on and listen for at least week or so, then after you've listened to various reference discs, take the tails off and listen again. I still have mine attached, but will remove them and listen in a few more days. Thanks for giving it a go. BTW - I'm making no promises here. Homemade pigtails may or may not work the same as the manufactured ones - or might to a lesser degree. There are many variables and some people on other forums have had degrees of success using various wires and configurations. As there is a thirty day unconditional money back guarantee by the seller, someone over your side of the pond may wish to purchase a pair and give them a test and if not happy, return them. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1050 Registered: Oct-07 | I wouldn't heatshrink or tape the loop closed. I'd leave it open and experiment with direction of loop.....You may find an orientation which makes things worse or better. The 2 loops may have to be at 90degree angle to avoid interaction, like any good inductor. As for paying 150$ for a pair of these.....well, best of luck. Maybe I'll try my 300ohm dipole from my old FM...... |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3114 Registered: Nov-05 | Leo, I'm basing the loop design on the marketed product. I will post a link to show the pigtail uncovered showing the insides so to speak. Now that the cat is out of the bag, the marketed product uses many strands of magnet wire looped, but bound inside a cotton sheath. That design may well show much better results that what I've done, but the fact that, to some degree wire is wire, a result of some sort may be apparant with various experiments and set-ups. Maybe not. That's what I was trying to find out without giving away what the tweak actually is supposed to do to the music. As far as suggesting someone buy to try - I should have placed a grin after that comment. But you never know - if it is supposed to yield such good results . . . . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3115 Registered: Nov-05 | http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/groundcontrol/groundcontrol.html This link shows to varying reviews if you read on. It also shows and describes the make up of the Audio Prism Ground Control. Making something similar to this would prove quite a bit more effort than what I did and may (or may not) prove much more beneficial to some ears and systems. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 596 Registered: Dec-06 | I've got some old Chord cable (Rumour 2) lying around. I might try it with that, but only after I've had some time listening to my system in it's current configuration without it. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2200 Registered: Oct-04 | Please don't tell me you bought one of those!" It was my house guest and friend Randy, as we read through the reviews for the newest bit of amazement from AudioPrism. "No," I said, "but come over here and looky see what yer friend Lar did." We took off what are now smallish loops of wire - and inspected them under strong lights. "Nice twisting job, Lar," said Randy. SIGH. Little humor there? Naw - he was trying to tweak me into admitting my madness. So I asked him about the articles, and why, after on-and-off'ing the loops, I could hear no difference. "Well, first," he said with a bit of disdain in his voice, "those things can't be true ground planes. We'd more likely call them truncated static bleeders." Huh? "Think of little lightning rods," only in this case the only thing they might do is bleed off some static electricity. But that, too, is impossible, because they're only stuck onto the end of a long wire that's stuck into a piece of metal on the speaker cabinet. Pretty good 'pull the wool' device, but it is physically impossible for those to do anything except in the mind of the listener." Randy is a systems engineer for a big electronics company, and has been involved in various kinds of transmission gear for the Military. Ground planes? "Sure," he said, "but nothing like that thing." He then drew some diagrams of what true ground planes might consist of, and how they might, or might not, ever affect the sound from stereo speakers. So we gave it a go - three different CDs - me switching on and off the loops as he sat with eyes closed, not knowing which was on and which was off. "Well," he said after a half hour, "I sure do like your music, but your left speaker has simply awful extended highs!" (I explained about the tweeters and crossover. . . ) But nowhere during the evening could either of us discern any sonic differences. Oh, I'll leave the loopy things on the speakers for awhile, and give them another go, but I have to agree with my friend: "the mind is a strange thing - prone to all manner of induced responses." In other words - it's all in our heads. According to him. But what does he know? He just designs intricate communications stuff for Government agencies - and has a stereo rig at home that he values at $30,000. I gotta listen to him. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3116 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, any improvement may well be in the mind of the beholder. One reviewer who claims improvement, states he while would not wish to participate in a D/B test, believes the ground controls do work for him. He admits that some systems (speakers) won't benefit from them at all or as much as others. I certainly don't know. The designer is also an audio engineer who has also worked for McIntosh in the past. He had a friend listen who could not discern any difference until he played a disc he was very familiar with. My wife could not hear any benefit, but she was not around when I put them on our speakers. I believe I heard a tad more depth and both low and high level detail in some music. Could it be in my mind? I couldn't discount that. But I will be removing and replacing the pigtails later on this week when I have some time for some serious comparitve testing. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2201 Registered: Oct-04 | M.R. - yeah, I took off the wires this evening - I'm too old for many more esoteric "tweaks." I'll be getting my new crossover by mid-week, and that will occupy my so-called "mind" for awhile. IF that doesn't clean up the speaker I simply don't know what I'll do. Oppo says it will only be their machine if the distortion is across the spectrum, not just the very high notes. And, since the dissonance always stays with the one speaker, I think the fault must be with the crossover. I've switched out (brand new) tweeters, and the squeal, or whatever, always remains in the same place. TRIPLE SIGH. I know Jan has told me repeatedly that the crossover is almost never at fault - but remember that I'm the one person y'all know who will nearly always get a bad (fill in the blanks) - so maybe this crossover is that one in a million that Jan referred to???? Older and tireder. . . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3124 Registered: Nov-05 | Good luck with the crossover Larry. One thing - could it be even remotely possible a tweeter was damaged during replacement. Just a thought. (I know, not a very nice one). |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14777 Registered: May-04 | . This seems to be a thread guided by the simple premise "wire is wire". Nothing could be further from the truth. Whatever your opinion of speaker cables and interconencts, wire is definitely not just "wire" when it is formed into a functioning device - a tuned circuit in this case according to the manufacturer. Setting aside the "how does it sound" issue, according to AudioPrism and the 6 Moons review, "Byron countered that there is a lot of very fine wire (about 138 feet) looped inside the GC in a very special braid configuration. He added that increasing the length of the GC by a ¼ inch would mess up the sound. It's critically tuned." Take a look at that statement and I am hoping you can see how just hanging any old piece of wire you happen to have laying around onto the back of your speakers is far from a conclusive test of the AudioPrism device or its principles. While I am all for DIY'ing as many simple devices as posible for a test, this would not appear to be one you can DIY - at least not with this "experiment". To do an effective DIY you must first have a grasp of the mechanism at work in the original - or at least a lucky guess. What has the designer attempted? How does it work? What or who is being affected by the device? Many of the Belt devices can be "tested" by substituting a common item found at reasonable prices. Where it is possible and such common devices are a good approximation of the "real thing", the Belt team will even provide asistance in how to go about such tryouts. If you have success with your test device, then you can decide whether or not to proceed to the actual Belt item. Clearly, a few inches of any old cable are not functioning as a "critically tuned" device in this case. The assumption it might is not founded in any way in even basic electronic theory. While not arguing for or against the AudioPrism device, this particular "experiment" is equivalent to substituting a Radio Shack PA amp for a McIntosh MC275 and then concluding all amps sound pretty much the same. Any conclusions drawn from this test are about as valid as your preconceptions will allow. Holding preconceptions is not the same as having basic familiarity with and knowledge of a subject. . |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2202 Registered: Oct-04 | M.R. - no visible tweeter damage - and even when I switch them, the problem remains with the L-hand "box." Unless I messed up BOTH new tweeters somehow? Arrggghhhhhh! Jan - depending on its usage, wire is wire. If you cut it to a length certain for an antenna, wire is still wire, but the final application of that wire is unique. Unless there is some damage or pollution of the basic material, wire is wire. Oh, you can't run a toaster on 18AWG wire, nor can Mer run her kiln on 115 volt circuit - but that's not the fault of the wire - it is the fault of the person trying to do something with the wire that will either damage the wire or damage what's at the end of the wire. I had a long talk with Randy about this - and as he's been involved in some very, uh, "sensitive" electronics designs, he took a good look at my "loops," and read everything that we could find online about the AudioPrism devices. In the end, he was firmly in my camp: "Wire is wire, and Hooey is Hooey." Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2378 Registered: May-06 | Larry, Not taking exception with Randy, but unless Randy has personal experience with a device his opinion is still just that, his opinion. Does some of this stuff work? Absolutely. Is some of this stuff black magic and only work's in one's mind? Possibly, but is that any different than it actually working if the user has the same satisfaction or result. As to Randy and others who outwardly dismiss anything based upon attitude, self-efficacy, resilience, and attribution, they usually will find themselves arriving at the same place at the end of the day. Not everything I try has worked, some have worked well. You and I both had similar results with the Insanity Mat so I would think that we may be open minded about things. The fact that the wire as constructed in this experiment does not work has no bearing on the Audio Prism device IMO. Audio Prism also has a similar device for RCA connectors which I am considering trying. JV has run some things past me that have worked, some without my knowledge, and some that have not. I trust what I hear and if I do not get what I expected or hoped for I move on. I would keep Geoff Kait stuff away from Randy FWIW. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2203 Registered: Oct-04 | Randy's opinion IS just that, Michael - an opinion, but one based on knowledge learned from his long experience with ground planes and what they can, and cannot do. But your points are well taken, sir. I had to be led by the nose through the TIM experiments - and had they not worked out I would have admitted it and gone on. My TIMs probably aren't "exactly the same" as the Millennium Mats, either - but, within certain limits, they work - most of the time. I hesitate to get into electronics arguments, because I have only peripheral knowledge, and thus tend to say "I think this is so," when it's only my opinion based on my personal experiments. Y'all remember the fuss that boiled up when my late friend Verne did his infamous Interconnect testing on a bunch of audio engineers - and they claimed to hear differences when, in fact, he never changed the wires! Well - the mind is a wonderful thing, Michael, and Mr. Belt has taken that into consideration with his various tweaks. Randy will, indeed, be in the same place tonight as he was this morning - at least where the AudioPrism device is concerned. And so will I. The rest of the Forum members must decide for yourselves where you stand. When even the reviewers differ absolutely on the device, I'm sure I'll get flak for my stand. Did I give it a "fair test?" Well - not without blowing a lot of money and knowing that the money alone might well influence what I heard or didn't hear. I'd like to read from any Forum member that he/she actually bought one - and had a positive experience with it. Wire remains wire. Ole Lar remains Ole Lar. . . GRIN Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14778 Registered: May-04 | . I wouldn't expect any other answer to come from an engineer, Larry. For the most part enginners are taught to accept things as they have been schooled. Taking exception to that schooling can mean you will not become an engineer. As a result most engineers tend to dismiss all things "auidiophile" as "Hooey". Having said that I would expect an engineer to acknowledge that all "wire", when it is used within a circuit, has as its most basic element a specific impedance and is, therefore, no longer just "wire". It becomes a reactive component within that circuit. Some circuits may be indifferent to the total impedance presented by the insertion of another component but many will be affected in some manner. Therefore, regarding your "depending on its usage, wire is wire", my not-an-engineer opinion would be I would totally agree with that as long as the wire is in a cardboard box or on a spool waiting to be used. Other than that, wire becomes a component in a circuit and it usage makes it a potentially volatile one at that. I'm not an engineer so make of that what you will. . |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2204 Registered: Oct-04 | Not wanting to get another "wire" argument started, I'll just say OK to Jan. But Randy had a good laugh at my expense regarding my Blue Jeans 10AWG speaker wire. "My God!" he said, "what're you doing with submarine cable?" Ahem. . .I think I laughed. He then went on to talk about his system, and that he used "plain old 14AWG extension cord" to run to his Martin Logan speakers from his Sunfire (sp?) receiver in his listening room. I guess Sunfire is the child of Carver? Not sure. Anyway, I asked about his CD player, and he just laughed. He doesn't have one. Just LPs. Hmm. . .abut what about DVD movies? "Oh, that's my other system," he said. "A Marantz player with a Denon AV receiver and PSB speakers all around." OK, Randy, I want some of your money! GRIN An engineer or an audiophile - or both - he doesn't take stock at all in hi-end interconnects or speaker wire. That's his take, anyway. And it must please him. . . So I now await my crossover, which Randy just raised his arms and said "ehnnnh?" about. Might it be faulty? He hadn't a clue, but based on my lengthy trials he agreed with me that it will either cure the problem or lead me into the nut house. SIGH BTW - he doesn't like B&W speakers. . .(his loss GRIN) But now he's gone and I'm left with wire cutters and high hopes. Whenever that durned crossover gets here! Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2205 Registered: Oct-04 | UH-OH - BIG DILEMMMMMAAA!!! As in, some hep please? B&W not only sent me the crossover, but the back panel for the speaker, as well - all new binding posts, etc. My dilemma - it is so DARNED HARD to strip out all the stuff in the speaker box - that I wonder if I could just snip off the wires to the old CO and use small wire nuts to install the new one on the protruding wires from the cabinet? The wires would still be about the same length, but would the wire nuts pose an internal problem? I know - LOW-TECH - but some input would be welcome here. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1053 Registered: Oct-07 | Copper to copper with wire nuts? The copper will oxidize and you'll end up with another nutty problem. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2206 Registered: Oct-04 | Ah, (as in "ugh") That's what I thought. But why would there be any more of a problem with the wire nuts than already exists at the end connectors, which are crimp-ons. GRIN Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2207 Registered: Oct-04 | OPERATION A SUCCESS - PATIENT AND DOCTOR BOTH LIVED. Whew! I decided to go ahead and gut the speaker again - a couple of cuts and a big bruise - but now, guess what? I'll tell you later. . . . .NO, NO. Problem apparently solved! Been playing a couple of the more problematic discs, and now the higher freqs on the L speaker come through nice and clear. It was quite obviously the crossover - though I haven't the foggiest idea of what or what or why or why. . . . Thanks for all the help and suggestions - I'm gonna go listen to some music now!!!!! Respectfully. . . . .lah de dah, lah de dah LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3125 Registered: Nov-05 | When I mentioned wire is wire, I also added in bold type "to some degree". In various applications I understand that different wire and guages can cause various things to happen. I know that from changing speaker wires and interconnects. When I first stumbled on this product, there was no explanation of its make-up and materials, nor was there any photos of its insides, so my experiment was primitive at best. As I found out more, I added some comments in this thread. As far as the "wire is wire to some degree' statement - I believe, though not using the same design and materials as the Prism product that there could still be some apparant effect. Yesterday I took my pigtails off, played a track, put them back on, replayed the track and did this over and over until I could draw no more conclusions. Basically, I could not determine any significent change to any part of the sound. But at this point I have kept them on because, whether or not it is in my mind, there was something about the music that seemed a little more enjoyable. The wire I chose was a multi stranded, braided copper. I don't claim it would be the same as the Prism product and my "experiment" was to read what anyone who tried it may report and that someone may have stumbled on something, depending on their wire and design, that really got a good result, but when the game was given away, the experiment, of course, went down the drain. Anyone got the number of a good shrink? Larry, so glad for you the crossover has done the job. Now you can relax, forget about wires and enjoy your music. Thanks for giving the experiment a go and reporting back. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2208 Registered: Oct-04 | M.R. - with you all the way, bud. The nagging question now for me is: "if the crossover was the final problem, did I buy two new tweeters for NOTHING? Hmm. . . . Oh, well - it's past and gone and now on to the music, which means so much to me. SIGH. And if the pigtails do it for anyone on this forum -well, bless you! Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 900 Registered: Jul-07 | So glad you've got that ironed out Larry. On to the music indeed. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12466 Registered: Feb-05 | Good job, Larry. Now you have your music back. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1055 Registered: Oct-07 | Good. You may want to send the dead crossover BACK to B&W and have them diagnose the problem. They may want to know for there own purposes plus peace of mind on YOURS. or not? |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 602 Registered: Dec-06 | I wouldn't expect any other answer to come from an engineer, Larry. For the most part enginners are taught to accept things as they have been schooled. Unfortunately the same can be said for doctors. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3127 Registered: Nov-05 | On the DYI forum there are a few people showing results with the pigtail. The designer is a member of the forum and has given away a few clues on how he made the product so that others could have a go themselves. He did not, as one review claims, work for McIntosh and doesn't know how that got in the article. For anyone interested, I'll try to find the thread and edit this post with the link if I do. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3128 Registered: Nov-05 | Seems you can't use the add link button when editing. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/102180-groundside-electrons-31.html The idea seemed to have gotten started about 3 yrs ago for those who have the patience to go back to the beginning. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2209 Registered: Oct-04 | Well, this is kinda embarrassing. Ahem. I'd put in the new crossover, and had set the old one temporarily on top of our big plastic garbage can - there was a LOT of the black sticky stuff on it, and I didn't want to get it on the furniture. SIGH. I was working away here in the den - getting some paperwork done - when Mer came in and said, "wow! I'm glad you took that stuff out of the speaker. I needed some fine copper wire, and that big coil is just perfect! She showed me that she had, indeed, cut out the large coil and had cut about three feet for some art project. Well. . . .what did I say? I counted to a thousand and then strongly suggested that she at least ask me before taking apart anything she found sitting on the garbage can. My own fault, I guess, but B&W ain't about to get the old crossover back now! Life with Mer is sometimes fraught with such misunderstandings. I'll give a report tomorrow on how the new crossover is doing, and BTW, I did go into the speaker cabinet and run the new crossover wires, instead of cutting and wire-nutting the old ones. Life sure can be strange. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14779 Registered: May-04 | . "An engineer or an audiophile - or both - he doesn't take stock at all in hi-end interconnects or speaker wire. That's his take, anyway. And it must please him. . . " Not that you would ask but the pertinent question IMO would be, "How much more might it please you if you used better quality cables and ic's? Have you ever tried them?" Inexpensive cables pass signals, that is not in doubt. They might not work well after a few months or years when subjected to the climate in FL. They certainly might not work well if the cables are constantly being pulled and pushed off and on. They might pick up stray RFI and EMI since cheap cables are prone to do so. And zip cord's higher inductance with lower capacitance might not bother his amplifier when feeding to a pair of electrostats (probably not since the Sunfire receiver was designed to drive loads such as The Carver Amazing speaker). None of this might matter at all if your friend is not listening for the things cables can and do affect. Most of the cable naysayers are quite proud of their jumble of freebie and cheapo cables behind their systems. They claim they couldn't hear the difference cables can make should they ever bother trying them - they are just as certain there is no difference as someone who leaves on the pigtails for whatever possible effect they might have. "No-cebo" is just as effective as placebo. And to some the variables just aren't worth their time. Everyone gets to enjoy their system and their music as they see fit. However, when I hear of someone with high end speakers run off a receiver of pretty much any stripe and no interest in cables I have a good idea when the last thought about the workings of audio crossed their mind. Jimmy Carter was still a Governor. "But Randy had a good laugh at my expense regarding my Blue Jeans 10AWG speaker wire. "My God!" he said, "what're you doing with submarine cable?" Ahem. . .I think I laughed." On this I do agree with Randy. All that copper is such a waste on almost any system. Though it was rather rude of Randy to chuckle at the components and cables you're using. He should have kept that to himself. Or at least offered to let you try his 14AWG zipcord. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14780 Registered: May-04 | . "Basically, I could not determine any significent change to any part of the sound." "But at this point I have kept them on because, whether or not it is in my mind, there was something about the music that seemed a little more enjoyable." Those are contradictory statements. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14781 Registered: May-04 | . "I wouldn't expect any other answer to come from an engineer, Larry. For the most part enginners are taught to accept things as they have been schooled." "Unfortunately the same can be said for doctors." Yes, and vets, priests, chemists, landscapers, grocers, anyone who attended either Texas A&M or Baylor University, etc., etc., etc. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14782 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/102180-groundside-electrons-31.html If you've read the artcile at all (go to the first page of the link), you know the premise for this device is based upon the use of a moderate to low guage overall construction comprised of numerous loops of a specific 40AWG Litz wire encased in a very specific dieletric with rather exacting finish details. While the designer admits to not having a full understanding of the workings of this device at the electron level of the ground plane (which is a quite contentious area of disagreement amongst thoughtful engineers), it would seem any ol'chunk o'wire you have laying around isn't even in the league of performing as advertised. YMMV I suppose is the best way to put it, but attempting this experiment without those particular components in that specific construction would seem akin to jumping in the air and then claiming landing a man on the moon is impossible. . |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2210 Registered: Oct-04 | Well, you see, Jan, et al, I have a problem. Oh, not with y'all, but just with myself. For "me" I have honestly (I hope) tried out many kinds of speaker cables - and heard nothing worth commenting on using any of them. They all "sounded" the same to me. Now I will admit several things: first, my hearing may not be as acute as yours. I do not have the luxury of higher-end gear, so I may be handicapped there. I have not had the advantage of having audiophile friends who come over and do true double-blind testing with me. I don't have the money to buy the hi-priced stuff, anyway. With all that in mind, I tend to go with the recommendations of my late friend Verne, and the nice people out at Blue Jeans Cables, where I've bought all but two of my cables. I will agree with Jan that my pigtail testing was not fair, IF it were being done in comparison with the $150 product. But it was not. It was a test against MR's home-made kit, and an attempt to hear differences in sound based on the materials he used - and apparently is still using. As Michael W will attest - I have a semi-open mind about all the tweaks and twaddle in audiophile-land. Oh, I must admit that my foray into the wunnerful world of carbon fiber has made me a convert - though for the life of me I do not know why the Total Insanity Mats make any difference at all. I would REALLY like to get some scientific testing done here - just for my own mind's ease. Jan, you're right about my "submarine cables," and perhaps I listened too intently to the preachers of the big-wire gospel. Well, if or when I feel overwhelmed by them, I have in reserve identical (in length and end-dressing) cables of both 12 and 14AWG. When I put on the sub-cables I did try to do A-B testing with the 14AWG pair - and frankly got so bored I gave up without any noticeable difference - "for me." Perhaps I'm just too much of a warm-milk listener, who is happy with music that's not screechy, boomy or tinny. SIGH. Yeah, that's it. . .and let the fine tuning fall on the ears of those who have more time, patience, talent and, yes, money. It took too many of my dollars to get the B&Ws "toned down," and Mer was less than happy about that. (even if she did the reckless crossover-gutting!!!!) Time to slide back and relax. . . Respectfully. . . LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2211 Registered: Oct-04 | JUst as I finished typing the above, we got a phone call that Mer's mother had a massive stroke and is being airlifted to the Tampa Severe Trauma unit. SIGH. Please - no condolences or the like - but Mark Twain was right: "Life is just one damned thing after another." Kinda puts the problems of stereo in perspective. . . LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3129 Registered: Nov-05 | Those are contradictory statements Well, thank you, but I would think that was quite obvious to anyone - even without your brilliant observations. But, until I understand why I think the music seems a little more pleasureable with the stupid things connected, I'll leave them on. I'm fairly certain it's in my head because, as you say, and according to the designer, my version should not do anything. But how does he know and how do you know. How did he "tune" his version to suit any speaker? I think, as much as his product may work (and I can certainly see reasons why compared to my paltry effort), he is stretching things somewhat as while admitting a lack of understanding of why it works, did he make thousands of devices using all sorts of wire combinations to get the one "tuned" for all sorts of speakers? Not according to what I read. As I stated previously, to some degree wire is wire - getting back to using a coathanger for an antanae for example. There are a lot stranger things I've seen and read that are supposed to do things for some listeners. And I am not an ardent believer of many tweaks - meaning for me: hearing is believeing. I'll leave it at that. As I certainly won't be buying 2 pair for over 300 of your bucks to suit my speakers. Larry, all the best for Mer and you for her mum's recovery. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2212 Registered: Oct-04 | Thanks, M.R. Mom is stable, but without speech. SIGH. Docs say it will be at least 48 hours before they know more. So goes life. . . But the music sounds better now! GRIN Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14784 Registered: May-04 | . "Well, thank you, but I would think that was quite obvious to anyone - even without your brilliant observations." It doesn't rise to "brilliance" when you see a string is not chain. I knew you'd get p!ssy. "I'm fairly certain it's in my head because, as you say, and according to the designer, my version should not do anything." You don't seem to have read the very article to which you linked. The designer is operating on some theoretical level and states there are alternatives to his final commercial design yet they would encompass far more materials and far more exotic and/or obtrusive construction in most cases. However, the system is "tuned" to specific properties, as has been made perfectly clear on several occasions, and a generic 8-10" chunk o'old cable of any sort probably isn't doing anything on the atomic level (where this theory postulates its effects) similar to the designer's theory when the theory calls for specific materials manufactured in a very specific fashion to achieve exacting results. Possibly, if you had just a working knowledge of, say, Litz wire and the specific properites that make it useful for certain applications, you might understand more why your scrap o'pigtail is unlikely to operate as anything more than a curiousity piece. You don't understand, therefore you have no capacity to, as I suggested earlier, reach at least a partially correct understanding of the mechanisms at work. Try as you might to make a case against me, Rantz, it's hardly my fault you have no, nada, zip, zilch, competely blank stare, deer in the headlights working knowledge of any of this stuff. You've chosen not only to remain willfully ignorant but to proclaim on numerous occasions just how proud you are to be so immensely uninformed. "But how does he know and how do you know." Know what? That just pulling some spare cable out of a box and attaching it to your speakers won't produce the same results as his design? Gosh, I don't know. Maybe he tried a few dozen, hundred, thousand varieties of designs before he settled on the one he is producing. Maybe he had a working theory to guide him and not just the idea to use up some spare wire? Maybe he's actually smarter than you and he knows how to go from conceptualization to finished product? Possibly he did due dilligence and you did not even read the articles? Ya' think? How do I know? I read the threads and articles. "How did he "tune" his version to suit any speaker?" He didn't "tune" anything to suit everything. He created a tuned device, he established the final properties of the device and went about "tuning" the materials and construction to achieve a fixed result. That's all he did. If you had a basic understanding of any of this, you would easily see how that is very different than what you claim. With the great variability in circuits - though speaker crosovers have become rather mundane of late - he admits to variable results in any given application. Thus, as you would have seen had you read the thread, he insisted on a 30 day money back guarantee. If you had read the articles and, if you had the basic comprehension of simple principles, you would have seen that stated quite plainly in several locations within the articles. Ground planes are quite complicated things about which not all engineers and phyicists agree because the degree of understanding now reaches the quantum level. How do electrons behave under certain conditions is the issue here. A lot of what is discussed is no more than theory waiting for a proof often done in a mathematical equation which is then debated for years. That hardly constitutes what you self righteously assume is a lack of understanding on the designer's part. I suppose you'd challenge Neils Bohr as a rank ametuer if your ego was at stake? Even rather simple circuits can have insufficient ground planes that will benefit from various techniques to reduce noise. On the opposite side of the coin there exist audio components which have top flight engineers designing exacting grounding tenchinques which simply alleviate any improvement made by such a device as the AudioPrism. It's all in the articles. Why didn't you read this? More importantly, why didn't you even begin to understand them? Most importantly, why are you challenging what the designer did and didn't do? You don't know squat and here you are wanting to know how the designer did such and such? That's a side splitter, Rantz, coming from you? You are a child! Tell you what, here are his thoughts on how this might operate. They are taken from the DIY thread to which you linked; My Postulate Electrons move at about 1 meter per second in an AC impressed signal cable. Mostly they just jitter back and forth, under the control of an information packet we usually call "signal". A signal is comprised of E Field and B Field, with E Field being the moment when the signal changes vector. At this moment the electrons holding the signal twist the axis of an electron, attached to a dielectric end atom, to the obverse of the spin and axis of the holding electron. This in turn causes the equivalent electron on the other end of the open chain of atoms, comprising the dielectric molecular structure, to twist to match the holding electron. Incidentally, this his is how AC signal is transferred across a dielectric barrier. This momentary hold for vector change is controlled by the charge threshold of the dielectric material and the subsequent release threshold and the time between these two appears to be affected to a degree by how many electrons can be signaling within a given area. This later is referred to as "dielectric constant". Holding electrons, without sufficient charge to affect the electron on the end of the dielectric molecule's atom, are lost from the coherent signal. The release threshold also provides a time interval to the resumption of the AC signal as a B Field event. These three events all contribute to the loss of signal coherency on the return portion of the signal through the load. The loop of wire, as a shorted turn comprised of many strands of insulated wire in my usage, coated with a two part dielectric material, polyurethane and nylon, has an extremely low RAC and RDC, but it's useful path length is very long, when considered as an unterminated wave guide. The entire loop is at a lower state of impedance than the ground it is attached to and over a period of time actually fills the open orbits of the empty orbits found in the copper wire. Due to the triboelectric effect of the additional pieces of dielectric, in the official electron pools, maintains this "filled" capacity, so long as there is a source of electrons to replace those that trickle away. After attachment, those low level wide band signal components will be maintained in this unterminated wave guide. Meanwhile, being lost to poor dielectrics and boundaries between different pieces of metal, throughout the ground system provided, out to the local pole in the ground itself. I suppose we could claim quantum choice effects here, for the signal , as it moves at the speed of light through the pieces of wire involved in this choice, but I don't really think it's necessary to argue at that level. Your notice of greater dynamic range is most likely just a drop in the noise floor and more coherence to the originating signal of information, on the back half of the signal waveform. These two are linked, since signal dropped from the "information packet" of a coherent information data stream will become a random event and cause random charged electrons to pass the information back through the load as noise. In your particular case, with uninsulated pieces of wire comprising the unterminated wave guide, a length of around two feet and a near continuous length of dielectric is needed to perform the same job that the six inches of 140 strands of insulated wire and small amounts of added dielectric material provide, in the Ground Control or Electron Pool devices I have been experimenting with. Marce, I agree wholeheartedly with you about poured ground plane being THE superior provider of the effects that Ground Control emulates. Plus, many more benefits are brought to the situation with continuous grounds, separated into power and signal and split between channels in a two or more channel device. Neither of the two "strip" grounding schemes are as useful, though star grounding the various poured pads in a complex piece of gear is required. Simon7000 provided an interesting link to me on grounds http://www.audioamateurinc.com/digit.../pageflip.html on page 40. The article Simon Points to concerns the need to fill all via holes to ground, in a circuit board that has two sided plating, and some other neat observations too. Bud Got that? I didn't think so. "I think, as much as his product may work (and I can certainly see reasons why compared to my paltry effort), he is stretching things somewhat as while admitting a lack of understanding of why it works, did he make thousands of devices using all sorts of wire combinations to get the one "tuned" for all sorts of speakers? Not according to what I read." Obviously, you haven't read much and you've understood even less. He certainly has some clear ideas about the how's and why's of his product's performance. It is an indication of just how little you understand and just how desperate you are to preserve your precious little ego that you attempt to make this someone else's screw up. That you have so grossly misinterpreted his admission to not fully comprehending what occurs at the atomic level of activity within the loop just goes to prove once again how a simple understanding of the basics involved here could have prevented your embarrassment. Does the above quote sound like he doesn't know what's happening? No. Do your words sound like the ravings of a lunatic? Yep! How about this one; Okay guys, stop here please. This admitted nonsense over electron pools arises out of my investigation into cables, speaker and interconnect. I realize this is a sore spot and that pragmatic folks have consigned these sorts of interests to LaLa land, and deservedly so. My reason for opening an investigation was that between the EnABL'd speakers and recent developments in my field of expertise, transformers, I was running into some pretty obvious colorations among cables. I borrowed a number of supposed world class items and some RS junk too. The Litz wire came about due to a desire to eliminate any questions about copper being the culprit. The sound of Litz wire in a cotton sleeve can only be described as dull. Extremely precise Brownian noise, no dynamics no color, just dull. It was fairly obvious at that point that the outer casing and what dielectrics it held had to be the culprit. Going back to my studies of dielectric circuits in transformers, that due to a construction/thought breakthrough 30 years ago, basically allows elimination of the effects of hysteresis, I found that I can actually access and manipulate these lumped sum levers. Manipulate to improve coupling, accentuate time domain smears between D Field and E Field, or, by design, decouple primary and secondary to a desired amount should I care to. I make use of these tools in guitar amplifier OPT's. These tools showed that some form of electron super population, at the dielectric barriers between primary and secondary antennas and some sort of dearth of electrons within coils could be effected by choice of dielectric constant and within those materials, with similar dielectric constants, were choices that appeared to be related to some sort of charge acceptance threshold, for low energy information coherent electrons. I chose an easy to manipulate dielectric, polyethylene, with a constant of 4 or so, and began to experiment with the Litz wire cables, just to see what sort of alterations I could bring about. The results are startling and show that while the high end cable makers have some vague idea of what is going to alter their cable colorations, there is no body of knowledge with any sort of scientific rigor, that I could find, that addresses what, how much and why alterations are possible. Hence it is snake oil, no doubt about it. The electron pools are just an outgrowth of these investigations. They came about because the signals I was obtaining, in the system I have to hand, had gotten so dense with detailed signal information in both transient and color dynamics, that when it ran out of support for these signals, the sonic character became thin and quite sharp in transients and flat, literally off key and sour sounding, in extremely dense and strenuous musical passages. Repeatedly, in the same places, in the same pieces, as will be strongly attested to by my long suffering wife. Now it was obvious to me that the professional engineers involved were not a duplicitous lot. They had done their best to make sure that signal side electronics and signal information were of the highest possible caliber, so, what was left.... the ground side? The very first short pieces of Litz, with small pieces of polyethylene on them were immediately successful in remedying these small problems, where, from my studies of dielectric circuits in audio transformers, I was pretty sure we had run out of carrier electrons. Those first pieces were circuit cables by the way, actual ground buss carriers. The loops came about just as an experiment, sort of a confirmation that it was some sort of electron holding action, keeping some important group of them from evacuating to service ground, that was being performed by the Litz and plastic, but this time in loops that are probably below ground potential, but, maybe not. Hence my questions in a couple of threads on this forum. Bud Rantz, you are a child, and as always you are acting as a child would act. You can leave whatever you care to hanging off the back of your speakers. The point I am making is you have not only misled the folks on this forum but you have gone so far off course in not understanding the principles at work - even on a gross level of capacitance, dielectric constants and absorption and the history of audio - that you have proposed an "experiment" that, should it succeed on anything other than a placebo level, has possibly done more to damage the reputation of high end audio designers than a year's worth of snake oil discourse on this forum could ever achieve. Finally, from the same DIY thread; Yes, my primary reason for posting all of the how to and asking respectable EE's and physics masters what might cause this phenomena, has been so I can sell billions and billions of dollars worth to unsuspecting housewives and their husbands. So far, most of what I have received from this camp of acknowledged experts is rudeness and an eagerness to stuff words into my mouth, while looking for vile purpose. I don't do marketing, I am not your enemy. Bud Neither am I, Rantz. Get a grip and get over yourself. . |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2213 Registered: Oct-04 | . . .and furthermore, Mr. Rantz - I ain't gonna use yer pigtails anymore! So there! Shame on you for leading a nice old (make that "ancient") scribe down the evil path of experimentation! Scheesch!! Think I'll go put on an Anita Bryant CD. . . . LR (Yes, Mer - I'm coming to bed. Just move the Tesla coil out from under my pillow, OK?) |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14785 Registered: May-04 | . Larry, I'll bet you know Edison proved those Tesla coils could kill elephants (not to mention killing all the profit from the AC based electrical grids Edison was promoting). . |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2214 Registered: Oct-04 | Yeah, but they sure do get rid of dandruff! (grin) OK - I read ALL the DIY thread, and must admit that I only have an understanding of about 20% of it. SIGH. I know that many/most of you on this Forum are able to hear - or at least claim to hear - significant differences in such things as cables and connectors, etc. I simply cannot. My bad, I guess. . .the TIM is about the only "tweak" that makes an audible difference for me - so far. The developer of the "real" pigtail sounds like a thoughtful and thorough chap. Perhaps some of you who can readily afford the Ground Control prices will give them a whirl? And Tesla never got a fair shake. . . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3130 Registered: Nov-05 | Poured ground plane, two 300mm lengths of #8 stranded wire, with as fine a strand of copper as you can get and a decent poly-something sheath. Or a 150mm length of true Litz wire with three 9mm pieces of polyethylene shrink wrap tube, shrunk tightly by 50% or so, distributed on the length of wire. I never mislead anyone. I stated that I didn't claim my version would bring about the same results as the Ground Control I based this experiment purely on some insignificent article that I can't even find anymore - even though I originally offered a link to it. I had nothing to go on. I then found another review and altered my description somewhat and then when I found out even some more information I added that as well. I never claimed my pigtail would obtain the same or any results for that matter, it was to see if anyone's elses might have. You might have also noted (but chose not to) that I alluded to the Ground Control product producing benefical results You wanted to emphasise to everyone that I made a contradictory statement. Well, shame on me! You just can't help yourself little girl. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1059 Registered: Oct-07 | Jan, Tesla lit lamps by putting current thru his body. VERY hi frequency stuff goes on the surface. In hi-fi it is called 'surface effect' and is one of those things cable guys argue about. Seemingly forever. Edison championed DC while Tesla, who some consider 'The Inventor of the 20th Century', not only invented practical AC, but with backing from Westinghouse also did the first large scale installation of AC dynamos at Niagra Falls. (polyphase system) Tesla made the beloved Edison look like a hack. Tesla failed to get rich when the contract he signed with Westinghouse and worth a reported 1$ per horsepower of installed capacity was also reneged on. Edison screwed him when he failed to pay him the promised amount for improving his DC equipment designs, than denied him a raise! Tesla died a pauper during WWII, 1943 if memory serves. The Government impounded his papers. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14871 Registered: Dec-04 | Interestingly enough, the band Tesla had a minor success of a remake of a song from the Five man Electrical Band. http://90srockvideos.wordpress.com/2006/12/29/tesla-signs/ |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3131 Registered: Nov-05 | Yet another thread turned into crap by the ever strange and idiotic Miss Vigne. So much for staying out of each other's threads. If I mislead anyone here I apologise as it was certainly not my intention. When I began this thread I had little information on the pigtail and preceeded from a point where I lacked some obviously critical data. I am done now and I will not be returning to this forum. Thank you to the decent folk on this forum who could communicate amicably and offer good advice, good stories and comraderie. I've enjoyed your company immensely. You know who you are. However, God created a piece of shite and someone name her Jan Vigne. Okay sweetheart, you've got your wish - I've had it with you and I wish you the very worst. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14788 Registered: May-04 | . Rantz, this makes, what?, the umpteenth time you've stormed off this forum? What name will you use when you reappear in a few days? You've run through quite a list as is. Quite honestly, Rantz, if you are so thin skinned you can't accept criticism of your own woebegone "experiment" that was not an experiment at all, then you are even more childish than I suspected. This was no audio experiment except to prove the gullibility of those who followed without any better description of how to achieve results than accepting your complete ignorance of facts. If being told the truth about the device you do not understand upsets you, then you do need to find a different forum. You rationalize and weasel to make this my problem. It is not. I merely reported the facts of the device you clearly do not understand. Criminey, Rantz! you even blamed the designer for your own problems! Everyone is at fault except Rantz! That's the behavior of a child, and a not very well tempered child at that. You have had years of opportunities to learn just enough to get by. You refuse to learn anything and you revel in your ignorance. There's only one person to blame for that, Rantz, and I am not that person. Other people here have learned about this stuff. Why haven't you? By taking people down a path that likely leads nowhere due to your absolute inadequacy in understanding basic principles you have fed the flames of the snake oil shouters. If anyone tried your "experiment" without comprehending the intent of - and the extent of real science include in - the actual product, they have been "misled" by your refusal to get to the facts and to understand the mechanisms of the device in question. Thinking any old chunk o' cable will suffice they are now more likely to be upset at the prospect of someone charging $150 for what they have laying in the back of their car trunk, something that's worth pennies and not $150. Their suspicions have been confirmed - not by trying a real product but by following the lead of someone without a clue. When no benefits are perceived from their cheap as dirt pigtails they blame the audio industry for selling more outrageously priced snake oil than real products and they unfairly label AudioPrism as charlatans. When in truth, AudioPrism is selling a product with better than average science at its core, high quality materials and exacting construction as the justification for its price and results as its end goal. Your little "device" was ill thought out. If you didn't have facts to go on, you should have acquired them before you began this thread. Look at the dates on the DIY thread. They go back to 2007. Claiming you didn't have access to the information until well after you began this thread is absurd! You just didn't bother to look. If you had looked but you didn't understand the facts, you either should have asked a few questions or you should have learned a few things in the years you've had available to you. Why didn't you? Who is to blame for your lack of curiousity? Not me! You screwed up, Rantz. Instead of acting more childish than you already have, you should just accept facts and move on. I'm not going to stoop to your level and insult you personally as you have me. Pointing out your obvious mistake is sufficient I should think. Goodbye, Rantz, I sincerely wish this to be the very last time I address you, now or under any other assumed alias you might select. If you choose to return - which I know you will, I would hope you will have spent your time wisely by acquiring at least a basic knowledge of electronics and audio. Take a course, Rantz, learn something for a change. Knowledge will not kill you. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14789 Registered: May-04 | . "Well, you see, Jan, et al, I have a problem. Oh, not with y'all, but just with myself. For "me" I have honestly (I hope) tried out many kinds of speaker cables - and heard nothing worth commenting on using any of them. They all "sounded" the same to me." There is no problem in that, Larry. You honestly tried, that's what counts here. If your priorities are not in sync with the peculiarities of cables, then that's not a problem. You don't go off when someone says something about a topic in which you have no personal experience. You have made several attempts to understand mechanisms. And I suspect you won't chuckle at your friend's 14AWG zipcord. There's no problem in any of that. . |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2215 Registered: Oct-04 | I hope that all on this Forum realize that my experimentation has always been fraught with a great deal of mistakes and doubt. I'm not taking "sides" with anybody here - I just try to get answers. Michael W and I have gone round and round with various tweaks. I have tried - I think - most of the ones to which he refers, and likes. For me, such things as wooden bases and Stillpoints (sp?) and esoteric cabling have not given me a minute's better music. The new Oppo, for example, sits now on 5/8 inch pure marble slab. I "learned" on another forum that this would negate any stray vibrations, and my music would be purer and cleaner. Well, the Oppo's been there for two weeks now, and I'm still hearing what I heard before. Even taking the slab off and on (a real chore!) has left me "cold" and $9.00USD poorer! GRIN Done Stillpoints, marbles, silicone, maple, and on and on. Got a whole drawer full of stuff! So along comes Mr. Rantz and his admittedly "impure" version of yet another AudioPrism offering. Remembering my lengthy and expensive TV trial of the Stoplight I entered the arena wearing a huge question mark on my T-shirt. Yep - U R right, Jan. I did not compare my pigtail with the high-priced spread - only what M.R. suggested that I and others try. Gave me something to think about - and do. What I would really, really LOVE is to read about a scientific double-blind test of such things - and of speaker cables and interconnects. The blind testing results I've read (I haven't the foggiest just how scientific they were) show that people can NOT hear the difference in any of this stuff. If you wish to call me a liar - just please show me ONE good test that shows consistently that people DO hear a difference. I know that for most of you I'm "out in left field." But I try to remain honest in my opinions - and willing to learn from my mistakes. I'll be first in line to read about any of you buying the new Ground Control - and after honest blind testing - find that it does make a difference in sound that might make me want to spend even more money! DOUBLE GRIN BTW - Mer's mom has an inoperable brain tumor. Sending her home, and she may live a month - and she may live another ten years. Nobody knows. So goes life. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14791 Registered: May-04 | . DBT's and ABX's or what have you don't hold much sway with audiophiles, Larry. For the most part they are very difficult to construct to achieve meaningful results when you end up testing the person being tested rather than the component. As I've pointed out previously on this forum, DBT's and ABX's are not accepted topics on many forums due to their nature. OTOH, the naysayer forums thrive on such BS. Many astute listeners have done well beyond "chance" at many DBT's. The "tea" being passed around is that none of this can be discerned through DBT's. That couldn't be farther from the truth than some of the politically partisan rancor being peddled on the web. Here are a few articles to consider; http://stereophile.com/asweseeit/705awsi/ http://stereophile.com/asweseeit/805awsi/ http://www.stereophile.com/thinkpieces/021708swiftboat/index.html . |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 605 Registered: Dec-06 | I read the 2nd article, it's a nice explanation as to why these tests are flawed. As much as the next guy, I get wrapped up in trying to hear the most minute difference in sound, which I can only imagine is the thing that happens a lot during a DBT. But I am realizing now that only one speaker I've heard over the last couple of years had me unable to stop listening. It was so enjoyable I just had to hear another song (then another and then another). It didn't have the greatest detail, or the most impressive bass or dynamics, etc. (though I'm sure it excelled at certain things). But it was positively addictive. This is what I want to get back to. I've enjoyed many speakers, and I currently enjoy my system as it's constructed now, it sounds pretty darn good and I'll try to eke out some more improvements, but what I really want is that magic that isn't always easy to explain by boiling it down to certain audio buzzwords. This is maybe a little bit off track, but is this the same for others here? That is, that most of the systems you guys have heard sound fine and perhaps you even enjoy them, they tick all or most of the audiophile boxes, but they don't quite do it for you. There was one or two systems you've heard in the past that were much more addictive than the many others you heard that sounded nice but didn't quite get you there. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2216 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan - thank you. I appreciate the links, and have already read two of the three. (yessss, I will finish all!!!) My position is - always has been - that I am a skeptic regarding hi-priced cables, etc. But at the same time I give free reign to all those who tell me that they hear major differences. If I cannot, well, that's my problem, isn't it? But I don't intend to insult them - just question them. If they can't stand the questions, then I wonder how secure they are in their position. And ah - Dan L. - systems I've heard that stay in my mind, and probably also in my heart. As to speakers, I'll have to hark back to an evening that Mer and I spent at one of her artist-friend's home. He had (still has) Martin Logan speakers - the mid-size ones that only go halfway to the ceiling. (grin) Mer was simply in awe, and I'll have to admit that I'd never heard a stereo rig like that. Then there is the old rig that I sold so that Mer and I could buy our yacht and cruise the Caribbean - clean, clear sound that just plain "sang" to me. Kef 104/2 speakers (a bit shy in the bass, but so great mid and high end) driven by - NOTE Michael Wodek - a Carver stereo amplifier. Of all the amps I've owned, none has ever come close to the "Carver sound." And I'm ashamed to admit that the Carver amp that came as a "care package" to my door some time ago is no longer hooked up to the NAD. SIGH. Mer put down her foot (both feet, actually) and said "too much crud in the living room!" So - I slunk back to the den with the Carver and left the NAD in place. DOUBLE SIGH. Mer is right - there is no easy place for the Carver without making the LR look like a dorm room stereo layout - but someday I'll get that puppy back on line. The B&Ws love it - sing with it - and I'll eventually find a way. . . I have friends who say they "hate" the Carver sound. OK - I disagree, but understand their position. We don't fight. My friend Randy doesn't like my B&Ws - but then he, too, has large Martin Logan speakers. SIGH. And a larger wallet. . .maybe I'll send him my "submarine cable" 10AWG speaker wires for Christmas????? Ummmmm. . . . . . . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 607 Registered: Dec-06 | Seen a few KEF 104/2 speakers up for sale lately. They caught my eye for sure, definitely an intriguing looking speaker. I've never noticed Carver before. Is that what you find though? That only a minority of the systems you've heard really had that addictive quality? Even when I listen to a set up at an audio store...I have been very impressed with a handful of auditions, but with most I'm thinking, "yeah, that's nice, but my jaw isn't hitting the floor." Maybe we all like a very specific sound, that for each of us maybe one or two speakers out there have. The others don't sound bad and may be ideal for someone else, but not for me . It's not all about speakers of course, one can't discount the other parts in the chain. I guess I just tend to think that there's a lot more variability to sound from one speaker to another than there is from one amp to another, thus finding the speaker that sounds right to is perhaps the most key decision to be made. And that's not to discount the importance of the other decisions. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2217 Registered: Oct-04 | Dan L - If you've spent much time on this Forum you know that I do not hear any appreciable difference between cables. Even amps, though I claim that I do hear "something different" with those. However, I do hear major differences between speakers - as I guess everybody else does as well. But the speaker is only one element - and backing a great speaker with a cruddy CD player - as I have (blush) done in past years - gives a, well, "cruddy" final result. So when I go 'round to various HiFi emporiums - or to friends' homes - I love to listen to their kits, but I try to ferret out all bits in the sound-chain, from player to speaker. With that in mind, I've heard several speakers over the years that made me wish to hear more from them. Large Magnepans - Martin Logans - PSBs - and yes, the old Kef 104/2s. Many forum members have speakers I've not ever auditioned, so I cannot speak to their sound quality. I'll look around online to see about those Kefs! And as to the Carver - well, sir, they don't make them anymore. But the "sons and daughters" of Carver remain alive under the "Sunfire" brand name. Expensive, and quite excellent if you buy into the type of amp involved. For me, the Carver sound is best described as "transparent." Effortless - to my ears, anyway. Oh, my NAD is very good - light years ahead of my old Onkyos and Yamahas and Denons. You did not mention the brand of speakers that held your interest, but I'd like to know. OK - I'm the ranking "amateur" on this Forum - most everybody else knows more about stereo kit than I do. My only claim to knowledge is in music itself, which I've studied and written about for decades. So what I type here is only in the realm of IMHO. Caveat whatever, so to speak. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 904 Registered: Jul-07 | Dan, I've found that it isn't the jaw dropping performance that ultimately maintains satisfaction for the long haul. As you've suggested, it isn't that a given system does all the prerequisite audiophile "tricks", it's that "rightness" and truthfulness that hooks me in for the long haul. Music is life, and if the music doesn't breath naturally when you listen to it, then the short term jaw dropping qualities won't mean much in a month. Larry, you're "amateur" ranking on this forum has plenty of company. Certainly that's the category I fall into, and unapologetically so. I'm just here to learn, and have plenty of it left to do. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14794 Registered: May-04 | . "Is that what you find though? That only a minority of the systems you've heard really had that addictive quality? Even when I listen to a set up at an audio store...I have been very impressed with a handful of auditions, but with most I'm thinking, 'yeah, that's nice, but my jaw isn't hitting the floor'." When I was selling I tended not to recommend systems and speakers that make your jaw hit the floor. My typical recommendation to a client was to buy what impressed them the least in a showroom. "Jawdropping" gets included in my words I do not care to hear when describing a music reproduction system. "Jawdropping" works fine if you are describing the performance you preceived through the system. However, over the decades of subjective magazines imprinting words without meaning on our audiophile thoughts, speakers (most especially) have become jawdroppers in their prowess to impress the casual listener. They must do soundstage and imaging and depth and all other sorts of parlor tricks to succeed in the marketplace. To accomplish this they are often tearing the music into bits which are not well assembled later. Only a handful of reviewers actually discuss the music as their main focus for owning a system. Complex music becomes garbled for a handful of reasons, many of them stemming from the overcomplicated construction of modern drivers and crossovers. Not that vintage speakers are without fault but before the world ever heard the word "imaging" applied to a stereo system, there was nothing for a speaker to do other than make the music interesting. Stacked Bozak Concert Grands did that job well and with a visceral impact I will never forget. This goes back to my preference for mono recordings, there is nowhere for a speaker to hide when all of its audiophile adornments have been stripped away. Yet how many of you would listen to an evening of mono when you would be deprived of sitting there judging just how well your compiled "system" accomplishes soundstage, imaging, depth, etc. and just what you might buy next to correct its inadequacies in such areas? How many of you have attended a live performance only to judge whether the real thing does "depth" as well as your home system? This is what tends to separate the audiophile from the music lover. . |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2218 Registered: Oct-04 | Good points, Jan - and when Mer and I heard her friend's kit with the Martin Logan speakers - Mer commented then and many times afterward how "natural" the music sounded. In other words, she and I did not perceive that we were hearing speakers but rather the musicians themselves. Something I have yet to reproduce here in my listening area. Was it the speakers? Yes, for sure. But the rest of his kit was 'spensive as well, so the whole thing was responsible for Mer's "I can't get enough of this" reaction. Jaw-dropping? No, just amazing, because we could almost see through those speakers and visualize real musicians in the room. My, what I'd give for THAT sound! Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 609 Registered: Dec-06 | Larry, the speaker was the PMC TB2i. I made a thread about them almost a year ago, which a Google search easily turns up. I should clarify what I mean by jaw dropping. I'm applying it to the music, not the various audiophile terms. I had the PMC for a couple of days. It didn't impress me at first, but as I started listening to more songs I couldn't stop. I think other speakers do certain things better, perhaps ticked off more of those audiophile boxes, but somehow the music didn't come across as it should when taken overall. When I think back over the auditions I've had, I think most of them were like that. I remember my PMC DB1i audition going very well too, which is what lead me to this line of questioning...I'm thinking maybe that there's something about the PMC sound that I dig and that I should just fork over the change already and buy a pair. I was wondering if other people here had similar experiences, with one brand maybe just doing it for them more than any other. "Jawdropping" gets included in my words I do not care to hear when describing a music reproduction system. "Jawdropping" works fine if you are describing the performance you preceived through the system. I think I'm doing the latter. Wasn't always that way though. By the way, I bought The Beatles box set in mono. Haven't got around to listening to it yet, but I figured mono was the way to go, to hear the music as it was recorded originally. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2219 Registered: Oct-04 | Looked up the speakers, Dan L - they look very good! But, as in women or men, looks ain't ev-thang! DOUBLE GRIN Just got an e-mail from my audio-sales friend in Chicago. He and I had been tooth-and-nailing it over my B&Ws recently, and although he doesn't sell them, he's been "nosing around" for me. It all started when I opined (as did the Stereophile reviewer) that the speakers somehow were much smoother with the grills OFF. I wondered why this should be (remember, I'm a music guy, not an electronics guy) SIGH Anyway, my friend apparently got in touch with somebody who does sell B&Ws - and got the info that the rather heavy plastic grill over the top third of the woofer is there to somehow prevent crosstalk distortion between woofer and tweeter. HUH? I do know that the 705s have a much mid-range smoother sound with the grills Off. But Mer doesn't like the look. WAF, WAF, WAF. SIGH With all grills off - well, if there is "crosstalk distortion" I sure can't hear it! But what I hear seems to be a smoother sound in the spectrum where woofer crosses over to tweeter - that's about 3,700Hz, BTW. I guess the answer for me is: grills off to listen, grills on when Mer's in the room? Hmm. . . And I'm not sure I buy into the "crosstalk distortion" thang, anyway. But what do I know? B&W must have known what it was doing - but for me, any slab of heavy plastic with holes drilled in it must cut off some of the sound coming from the speaker? That's why we use porous grill cloth - or, excuse the word, "bare" speakers. I think. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14795 Registered: May-04 | . "I was wondering if other people here had similar experiences, with one brand maybe just doing it for them more than any other." My preferences run not to brand so much as type; single driver, full range in a quarter wave pipe (transmission line - which PMC employs in all their designs). Alternately, most of the BBC derived systems would be on a short list. Dipoles are almost indispensible. Quad 57's would be in my room if I had the space and the desire to invest in the restoration. . |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 611 Registered: Dec-06 | Jan, perhaps I do like the transmission line design. But that's hard to say, as I've not heard another speaker other than PMC that employs that technology. I was surprised to find that Rega makes one (the Ela I believe it's called). I am this close to biting the bullet and getting the PMC's. But they are expensive. I think I'll get the big Dynaudios that I've had my eye on. If they don't work out then I'll stop waffling and just get the PMC. Personally I'm hoping the Dyns keep me satisfied for a few years, and I can snag the PMC's when they update the line and the i series is discounted. But for now I will try to keep improving the sound I'm getting from my 12L2. I'm looking at coupling/decoupling, isolation and all that. I'm sure I'll post about it in a few days as I've got some ideas based on my readings. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1061 Registered: Oct-07 | Other than the fact that they can be huge, any fans of 1/4 wave transmission line subs? Any major advantages or Disadvantages? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14796 Registered: May-04 | . Size is somewhat relative to footprint. A TL sub can be made into a more traditional tower shape which requires minimal footprint. Or laid on one side to act as a table - as long as you're not too intent on keeping your drinks in one palce. IMO the problem more becomes driver selection. The correct TS parameters for a well designed quarter wave call for a driver not that well suited to a simple reflex enclosure. As the driver market is currently more friendly to simple reflex designs this narrows your selection of low frequency drivers by a considerable margin. Quarter waves also tend to be less efficient than reflex enclosures as most of the rear wave in a TL is being damped, that might not be the best solution for a sub in some cases. Dan - If it is the bass performane you like in the PMC's, then it's very likely it is due the TL design. IMO a good QW pipe has bass response like no other low frequency system. Very similar to a sealed enclosure though possessing much tauter snap and definition, smoother last octave extension and a greater sense of freedom from driver and cabinet reflections. Has anyone heard a good dipole sub? Quite unique! . |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1069 Registered: Oct-07 | Dipole sub? Would it accommodate my panels? Would you be talking something like a push/pull isobaric enclosure? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14800 Registered: May-04 | . Isobarics require an enclosure, right? Think "open baffle". http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/ . |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1072 Registered: Oct-07 | Gotcha. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2221 Registered: Oct-04 | Well, I suppose it was inevitable. SIGH. Sitting down in front of the telly last night, Mer tried to "up" the volume on a BD that was playing a movie. To get the volume up high enough to understand the dialogue we had to raise the Samsung's control up to 65. Usually it's about 27. HUH? Well, we took out the Bd, checked all the connections, and then reinserted the disc. It would not play, just churned and kept the initial splash screen up. Tried another BD. Nope. The Oppo was apparently "dead." This ayem tried to play some CDs, and the sound was very weak and distorted on the 7.1 channels - but much better on the 2-channel stereo output. DOUBLE SIGH. So come Monday I've gotta e-mail Oppo and see about getting the player fixed/replaced, etc. TRIPLE SIGH. How come EVERY piece of electronics I buy eventually cr@ps out? So much for a good weekend. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3804 Registered: Feb-07 | That sucks! How old is the Oppo? |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2222 Registered: Oct-04 | The Oppo (sob) is six weeks old. . . What else can I say? S I G H LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3805 Registered: Feb-07 | Ah well, at least it's still under warranty. Stuff for me usually breaks as soon as the warranty runs out. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12495 Registered: Feb-05 | Bummer Lar, I hope the turnaround is quick and the solution agreeable. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1078 Registered: Oct-07 | With any electronic device, while the ALL eventually break, unless you be the 'forever warranty', chances are it'll break pretty quick. It's called 'infant mortality'......if it's gonna break, the sooner the better. 6 weeks? Well within the period I'd expect something to break if it is going to. The next one will have been checked out by OPPO and it'll last a long time. Bet on it. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2223 Registered: Oct-04 | Yes, in all my dealings with Oppo - both for this player and for my old 980 - the tech chaps have been quick and eager to help. Never had that level of service before. I live in hope. . . .LarryR |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14909 Registered: Dec-04 | Bummer, Lar. You get a new one soon in the mail? |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2225 Registered: Oct-04 | Nuck: It's on its way from California via FedEx - expected here in Swampville Friday/Saturday or so. The NAD is back in the shop - expected return, oh, maybe 2045. GRIN??? I'm going back to just reading books. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2226 Registered: Oct-04 | Oppo/NAD update - please to to Teaching an Old Dog New Tricks thread. SIGH. |
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New member Username: BudpPost Number: 1 Registered: May-10 | Wish I had found this thread a couple of months ago. I might have been able to provide some comments. Unfortunately I don't spend much time on any place but DIY audio. Jan Vigne, thank you for your astute comments. Rantz and Larry, thank you for trying to think about something that, really, mankes little conventional sense. Jan, do you hknow of Bob Brines? Might I invite you to get involved with either Bob here http://www.brinesacoustics.com/ or with Dave Dlugos out of Canada here www.planet10-hifi.com Your comment on full range drivers causes me to point you toward these two guys. They are using EnABL'd drivers in various astute forms of cabinets. These speakers will provide you with a solid 90 db range of coherent information, vastly lowered distortion and a lack of characteristic full range driver shout or shriek. And Ground Control unfolds all of it's capability, when mated with the drivers these gent's use. Just a quiet suggestion. Bud |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14870 Registered: May-04 | . Welcome to our forum, Bud, I'm sure everyone would be happy to see you stick around for awhile. At the very least, I can say we certainly don't have the number of vehement, looking to attack naysayers found on many other forums. My comments were hardly astute, just some simple reasoning from what I've read and experienced. Whether I'm right or wrong is still to be decided, isn't it? I do know Bob, he attends the annual audio show held in this area (http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=311) and I usually get to ask a few question while I sit and listen to his products. Last year he displayed a few systems treated with the coatings you mention. Along with John Busch, Bob always has the best sound at the show IMO. Strangely though, I don't think most people would consider the two end results to be all that much alike. I've also had a few small dealings with Planet 10 and both websites are bookmarked in my browser. When I occasionally visit DIY I see Dave providing many answers that are beneficial to both the beginner and the more experienced constructor. You can't ask for more than that from someone in this hobby/business particualrly when providing such answers could potentially cut into their profits or their standing in the audio world. Tim Forman spent a few years on this forum while he was beginning his speaker business. He's very much missed here since he was a valuable source of information. If you go to his personal website, you'll see a link to my reviews of both the Ling and his Emma systems. My current main speakers which finally replaced the 1976 LS3/5a's are DIY's built with Dave Merrill's small full range driver so you might have an idea of what I'm after when they are attached to a pair of McIntosh MC240 tube amplifiers. Unlike the original ZigmaHornets, I have my speakers configured as dipoles using four of Dave's drivers. I understand there is a new company which has picked up the rights to continue producing the Merrill designs. I've read most of what I could find on your device and I believe I have some idea where you're headed with this addition to the amplifier/speaker chain. If I understand your use of Litz wiring correctly, there is a question I have that you might answer. I remember a single question being presented on one of the DIY forum threads that I didn't notice being answered. Why not just use a single, small value capacitor in place of your device? Wouldn't this be of equal value as a sort of "ground sink" to the circuitry of most amplifiers/speakers? Wouldn't this be very similar to what I remember from ages back when tagging a small cap to the outputs of an amplifier was claimed by some to make for better performance from the system? And, are there any particular types of amplifiers or speakers which would at first glance appear not to benefit from your device? The discussion of ground planes suggested there exist a few components and speakers that already address the same issues your device attempts to resolve. Are these all high priced products made in the extremes of esoterica by mad genuises or does this sort of thinking actually exist in the real world of affordable consumer audio without getting into the hairshirt variety of bare bones simple is best? And, once again thanks for stopping by the forum. . |
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New member Username: BudpUpper left c... Post Number: 2 Registered: May-10 | Thank you for the welcome Jan. For those interested in the EnABL process, but do not like other people to build their cabinets and don't want to tackle learning how to do this for them selves, Dave at Planet 10 will sell you licensed drivers. I use a pair of his Fostex 127eN drivers, in Fonken prime cabinets, as my reference speaker system and am very happy with them. The only speakers I have not wanted to "improve" in the last 40 years or so. I use them to judge the completeness of solution to the more esoteric drivers, one's that I provide on order. As for your questions on Ground Control. A capacitor is a tantalizing idea, especially a tin poly PPFX from Reliacap. They do not make up a complete, unterminated wave guide, but I am not sure that is a problem with one of the non inductive bi polar caps. I would recommend a rather small value, perhaps even the smallest they offer for trial. My concern with them is this. When using the Ground Control devices and tuning them for a specific driver, It is entirely possible to have too much triboelectirc "helper" material. The aural effect is that the sound gets very dynamic, with all of the other spatial benefits that GC's typically provide and then, around hour 4 to 5 of use, suddenly they go flat and all benefit disappears. The "sweet spot" for maintaining the aural improvement is, thankfully, quite broad and the units we provide commercially are set for the center of that sweet spot. Even a small value capacitor will have far more capacitance than the Ground Control does and thus far more triboelectric effect will be available. Perhaps a glass passivated 10 pf device would be the answer, I just have never investigated. As for equipment that doesn't need GC. SY from DIY Audio says that his fully differential system is immune. Another post, from NZ. pointed to a preamp with full copper plate ground plane as making his system immune. As for other immune systems, we haven't heard from anyone else. Mostly just raves from people who comment that these funny little pig tails will not be leaving their systems, period. Personally, I have found the RCA devices particularly useful. Friend Rene' Jaeger loaned me a 1980's vintage solid state Nikko Beta I preamp recently. It had the typical slightly hissy, occasionally spikey, high frequency hash found in electronics from that time, but was otherwise very transparent and noise free. Since it had two extra output jacks, I plugged two standard RCA GC's in. Rene' will not be getting his "loaner" back any time soon! My Sony CD / SACD / DVD player, an inexpensive one, has benefited from GC also. My Audio Prism Debut amplifier has a pair of spade lug units on the outputs lugs and of course the Fonken / Fostex boxes also have a pair, the reference units, in this case. So, for most electronics and certainly most speaker systems, I think these things will help retain much of that information that we usually note as "roundness" and "space" in our audio hobby. Bud |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14871 Registered: May-04 | . I take it them capacitance is the key to your product? Thus, the use of the highly stranded Litz wire and not just some hunk'o'wire you had laying around the shop. But, what then are you "tuning" the device to if you say you are tuning the device to a specific driver? How does the user go about this for each specific driver? And, what sort of tuning is required for the RCA version? Are there instructions that come with the device or is this just something you know and can pass along to a client? . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14872 Registered: May-04 | . "As for equipment that doesn't need GC. SY from DIY Audio says that his fully differential system is immune. Another post, from NZ. pointed to a preamp with full copper plate ground plane as making his system immune." OK, I can understand the full copper ground plane (and plenty of extra attention to noise causing issues) not requiring assistance but, wouldn't that same logic apply to hard wired components also? Or, am I not fully understanding what has been attempted with the copper ground plane? Why would the device not be beneficial to the fully differential system do you suppose? Does the term "fully differential" mean the user has constructed an unusual AC grounding system also? . |
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New member Username: BudpUpper left c... Post Number: 3 Registered: May-10 | When I speak of tuning for a specific driver, I am referring to EnABL'd drivers that I treat, only. Their performance level is so high that a specific amount of the triboelectric inertia material must be applied to a GC for them. Every driver I send out, from this level of EnABL treatment process, has GC's attached directly to the ground lug of the driver itself. The EnABL process I provide has a higher Q than what Planet 10 provides and the drivers themselves are of a much higher level of performance, and cost, than those Dave chooses to use. He and I are in agreement on this relationship and he sends those looking for this level of performance to me, as he is involved in a somewhat more commercial application of EnABL. Drivers that come from the manufacturer without EnABL are not providing coherent information much below 40 db down from the average signal level. Rudy Bozak, John Meyer and others have bemoaned this lack over the years and driver mfg's have responded with perhaps another 10 db down. An EnABL'd driver from Dave, with a generic plus EnABL set of patterns applied, will have another 20 to 30 db down of coherent information available. The higher Q pattern application, along with very high performance motors, diaphragms and suspensions will provide yet another 20 db down of coherent information. Both levels of EnABL provide complete signals. As an example, a reproduced piano note from an non EnABL'd driver typically is missing the actual strike of the hammer and doesn't provide a full tonal spread, until some point down the time stream from that strike. An EnABL'd driver will provide the entire sonic envelope, with the length of coherent decay being the difference between what Dave provides and what I provide. When I tune a GC for a specific driver I am tuning to further enhance the whole 90 db spread of information and it is rewarding to do this. The EnABL plus and non EnABL'd drivers and systems, will utilize the nominal tuning very well and need no further user tuning to provide all of the benefits Ground Control are capable of. As an example, the Fostex / Fonken system from Dave, that I use every day, does not have a critically tuned GC, though I do have the reference set attached. A critically tuned GC would provide a benefit that falls into that placebo / sighted difference quagmire of doubt, and I know this because I have tried to better the commercial version used on these drivers, without reliable success. You have heard and commented on the sound from Bob Brines' speakers, so you have heard the level of performance an EnABL plus system can provide and I suspect the environment was not a particularly good one, as with most shows. I am not sure what your definition of hard wired components is Jan. A full copper ground plane, split for power and signal and star ground connected to safety ground, provides a number of services. Those you mentioned, and also a mirror image of the signal occurring in the drive portion of the circuitry from both B Field and E Field emissions. This is important because it maintains a high density of filled electron orbits on the ground plane and that density translates into less information loss in the back half of the wave forms. The only thing that might improve that condition would be a thin high performance dielectric coating, on the ground plane copper sheet. These benefits are available for PCB construction or point to point wiring, with the PCB continuous ground plane copper placed on the component side of the board, with circuit traces on the other side, in a double sided PCB . This is not the current typical manufacturing technique, in the modern day commercial environment. A true, fully differential system does not have a direct reference to ground in the signal portion of the electronics. That reference is buffered through the rectifiers and power transformers. This does require a double insulation system for user safety, just like an electrical component without a safety ground lug must have, before UL /CSA /CE will approve it for consumer use. The implication here is that a fully differential system will have mirrored circuitry, driving in a full push pull, class A manner, without a ground reference at all. Theoretically, there will be no "lost" signal from the data packet in this arrangement and while I suspect that a GC does provide some benefit, I would expect it to be well below a level acceptable to a staunch objectivist, as a reliably observable change in sonics. Knowing SY, as I do, I am sure he would have perceived and commented upon an improvement, noticeable enough to be considered beyond the placebo / sighted change realm of difference, had he experienced one. This is the reason for the money back guarantee in the commercial offering for Ground Control. There will be systems that are already good enough at retaining this back side of the wave information that the GC device will be superfluous. However, considering the level of commercial control of this aspect of signal integrity, I doubt we will have many returns. Bud |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14873 Registered: May-04 | . Thanks, Bud. I think I'm going to have to read some of that several times before I can comment. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14998 Registered: Dec-04 | Me too... |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14874 Registered: May-04 | . Bud, do you have any thoughts or comments about your RCA product's concepts vs. this unit from Acoustic Revive? http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/rgc24/rgc24_01.html . |
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New member Username: BudpUpper left c... Post Number: 4 Registered: May-10 | I suspect it works well Jan. They are not aiming at quite the same thing we are, at least in the blurb on the web site, but circulating currents in a chassis can be a very bad problem and very few designers I know are aware of either the solution or the problem. Certainly John Curl, Nelson Pass, Rene' Jaeger and Miles' Nestorovic were aware of them, but I find little said from others. I suspect that what is actually being heard is a process similar to what Ground Control addresses. After all, that short length of cable and a well chosen ground medium are no farther away, at the speed of light, than is a GC stuck on your speakers. I did forget to mention in my comments on a fully differential system that all interconnects and speaker cables, including those from a phono cartridge through the arm, are balanced, with the balanced pin carrying ground throughout the systems chassis. The signal is fully floating. Bud |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1170 Registered: Oct-07 | Mu Metal.....That's the solution. Multi-level boards like computers, with one level being ground plane copper. Case of the gear transparent to magnetism. Even Aluminum won't work because of paramagnetic effects. |
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New member Username: BudpUpper left c... Post Number: 5 Registered: May-10 | I agree Leo, for noise control issues. But that is just one of the jobs that a poured ground plane does. The portion of a ground plane's jobs that the GC's do is actually best done with an instrumentation ground scheme, but how many pieces of gear, in anyone's audio system, have other than a single sided PCB with strip grounds? And even the poured grounds are not aimed specifically at retention of back wave information coherence, in a ground referenced piece of gear. Every thing I have seen with this level of care in grounds has been from Tektronics or Fluke and is fully differential from input to output. Bud |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1175 Registered: Oct-07 | Fluke and Tektronics, if memory serves, is also bigtime hi-end test gear. We had an engineer at work whose scope was on the end of about 100ft of big extension cord. It was NOT touched without his express approval and NEVER shut off. This was an old (even then) vacuum tube model with interchangable modules. So, while I'd like to cry 'foul' I won't. The gear to which you refer can reliably tell the difference between 'identical' amplifiers made in sequential order on the same line. This is beyond the standard of any home stereo / hifi gear. Even the best, most reliable (Bryston, by warranty measure) is not built to that standard. Put the whole stereo in a Faraday Cage. |
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New member Username: Peterselby7Post Number: 1 Registered: Jun-10 | What benefit could this possibly add? If your existing speaker cables are built to any kind of standard all you will be adding is additional eddy current from the extra connectors. I cannot see there being any possible scientific advantage. In the rare case it may make your system sound better it would be because of two negative events creating a positive event. Unlikely... http://www.home-speaker.net/best-speaker-wire.html peterhttp://www.home-speaker.net/best-speaker-wire.html |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14913 Registered: May-04 | . "What benefit could this possibly add? Begin with this post in this thread; https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=1855205#POST1855205 Though a more complete answer can be found in the DIY links provided in earlier posts. Read the entire thread which spans the better part of three years of discussion. If you choose not to believe the on paper explanations, then I would advise an audition with your own equipment to satisfy the empirical side of the hypothesis. Do use the real thing though and not just some 8-10" hunk o'spare cable you have laying in your trunk. . |
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New member Username: BudpUpper left c... Post Number: 6 Registered: May-10 | Jan, would you please be so kind as to PM me? Bud |
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