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Ayre DX-5 at $10,000 is a rebadged $500 OPPO.

 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 29
Registered: Jul-09
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/200911_ayre_inside_844w.jpg

Here is yet another rebadged oppo player that is selling for far more then what oppo charges for it. Ayre admits to changing nothing in the digital, HDMI, and video processing department so it is nothing more then a "snake oil" mod. With the new OPPO BDP-83 SE this ayre player is using the old DAC's and not the new ESS DAC's so you are paying $10,000 for less.

Then again one just has to look at ayre's past source units to realize it is all snake oil.

Ayre CX-7eMP

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/ayre_cx7e_inside.jpg

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/25860270_7febf5b166.jpg
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 30
Registered: Jul-09
I know I mentioned this in the theta/lexicon rebadged thread but this needs into own thread to get the word out.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 34
Registered: Jul-09
Funny thing is that this unit is not based off of the new oppo SE version so one is paying $10,000 for a rebadged player using poorer [erfprming DAC's.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14072
Registered: Dec-04
If there is a buyer, there sure as hell will be a seller.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11427
Registered: Feb-05
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=957237&posted=1#post957237
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2685
Registered: Nov-05
This guy is so full of it.

Hey, I've got a $10,000 Ayre BD player - it's been rebadged as an Oppo BD-83 but I don't care, because it's probably the best blu-ray player on the market at present. So there Stevie!


Actually, I mean it - the Oppo is a heck of a player.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14078
Registered: Dec-04
Feeding the troll...
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3095
Registered: Oct-04
http://www.avrev.com/forum/blu-ray-players/4294-ayre-dx-5-10-000-rebadged-500-op po.html

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=76749

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=69073.0

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72442

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/ayre-dx-5-10-000-rebadged-500-oppo-459204/ind ex2.html

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=84707&st=20&start=20
 

New member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 1
Registered: Dec-09
>>>With the new OPPO BDP-83 SE this ayre player is using the old DAC's and not the new ESS DAC's so you are paying $10,000 for less.

Let's see, 1) according to Charles Hansen's posts on the avsforum boards, Ayre doesn't even use OPPO's DAC, instead building their own; 2) according to Steve/William, none of the engineering in the Ayre could possibly make any difference in performance, it's all just "snake oil"; 3) but, hey the new ESS DAC is the shiznit! Whatever . . .

And Steve/William has an interesting definition of "rebadge". I'll bet Ayre doesn't fabricate many parts that go into their products, maybe even none. I guess that means that all their amps are "rebadged" transformers! Or would that be "rebadged" transistors?

Meanwhile, Steve/William's internet scatter-bomb includes claim's that Ayre is going to pocket $9500 profit for each unit sold! Holy cow, are they ever going thru quite the expense to make this free profit, not to mention the trouble of getting their dealers to sell the product without any mark-up. Very generous of all these people to subsidize a crime!

Thanks for the giggles Steve/William!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14088
Registered: Dec-04
Welcome to the forum, Ed.
Are you stalking Steve?
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2700
Registered: Nov-05
Well, let's hope Ayre has customer service as good as Oppo.

Man there are some nuts infecting the audio forums. The world is definitely not a safe place :-)
 

New member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 2
Registered: Dec-09
>>>Well, let's hope Ayre has customer service as good as Oppo.
Well, I have to confess having a dog in this race, being an owner of some of Ayre's "entry-level" gear. I can tell you that their customer service rep is accessible, friendly, and knowledgeable. I've sent my stuff back three times now, not for repair but, for upgrades. IMO, that's one of the coolest things about Ayre. Instead of having to buy the latest model (which is well out of my budget) or be stuck with an "obsolete" one, you can send your unit back to be upgraded to current version for a fraction of the cost of a new unit.

I've never owned any Oppo stuff but Charles Hansen lauds them on the avsforum boards. That's another thing I don't get about this thread. What of Oppo's role in willingly supplying their transport and video board to these "snake-oil" artists?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14090
Registered: Dec-04
Ed, Steve is just doing his regular troll thing.
Stopping by to drop a few bombs on well regarded names is standard, then disappear for a while.

However, Bruz is not incorrect altogether, as you know.
Re-branding is rampant and functional.
But putting a respected name like Ayre or Theta on a walmart product would be criminal and a misrepresentation, IMO.
I believe that the product is not supporrted by Oppo, ever, and all modifications are proprietary to the manufacturer.
Thats why you get good service.

They start with a good unit, then improve.

Have a look at Rega, as a flipside, their cd players.

Rega developed their own chipsets for the Apollo, Saturn and new Isis. Nobody does that anymore.
These rights are protected vigerously and not shared with anyone. It was expensive and took time, but was done to satisfaction.
Now ship your knowledge to China for production, and your brainwork of 2 years is worth a bowl of rice.

Producing software and chipsets is easy one at a time, mass production requires an investment.
Whom has protected their interests in the business?

Well, some little guys like Ayre and Theta are doing their little skunkworks things, and I think I saw a Rega player in a storefront somewhere.
 

New member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 3
Registered: Dec-09
>>>Re-branding is rampant and functional.
Yes, it seems to be happening tho' I hope it's not rampant. "Cloning" is actually how the thread got started over at avsforum regarding the Ayre player. Apparently, there is at least one megabuck player that truly is no more than an Oppo stuffed into a fancy name chassis:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd -blu-ray/lexicon-bd-30-universal-blu-ray-player

To the extent that the description is true regarding the Lexicon, I would agree that this is a clear (and obscene!) case of "rebadging". But the Ayre seems to be quite a different story. I'll leave it to others to decide whether it's worth its price - it's out of my league - but I would guess it will be notably better than the Oppo, especially on the audio side (a Stereophile reviewer said the Oppo is a top-shelf transport but needs to be used with a top-shelf DAC to realize its full potential and Ayre has a solid reputation for designing top-shelf audio boards).

To my ears, my Ayre CDP is quite a lot better than the Magnavox CDP had used previously (regarded as a quality, if "mid-fi" CDP when I bought it). So much so that I was willing to open my wallet far enough to buy it. I love listening to music and it was worth it to me to gain the extra musical enjoyment.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3100
Registered: Oct-04
I'm glad you like your gear, but I'll mostly agree with Steve, that only under the most optimized conditions, and only by those with the most critical ear, would anyone ever be able to note any hint of a difference between two players that borrow so heavily from one another.

The Oppo BDP-83 SE would seem to be about as good a universal player as one could hope to buy, and probably as good a CDP as your ever likely to need, or perhaps hear.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3101
Registered: Oct-04
When Steve, or Bob, or Asahikasei, or whoever, first made his rounds regarding the Lexicon RV-5/HK AVR-745 similarities a while back, what I found interesting was that the HK seemed to have the beefier power supply of the two, the HK being 11.7 lbs. heavier than the Lexicon!

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?fid/24/tid/140389/fbb_sess ion_id/c73dca85df62089d3f599e2cc2b0147e/

There is a place for these sort of discussions, I find them interesting & helpful, but the manor in which this guy sweeps in and pronounces his observations as fact, is what tends to piss people off, particularly when his photographic evidence refutes his allegations.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14106
Registered: Dec-04
I am glad that Lexicon owners are all engineers who have inspected and tested the board themselves to upper echelon adherence over on the dog-spot forum.
The admin seems busy there.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2855
Registered: Jun-07
Lexicon has never been an audio company just a marketing company selling audio IMO. Lexicon have never designed or made anything of their own that I know of. Just re-badged stuff. Why would a company marketing themselves in the high end market use an H/K design is beyond me but meh..

Ayre on the other hand are real engineers working in a shop designing and hand building audio equipment. I can't see them simply just fully copying an Oppo player, although the Oppo player is a very good player indeed. Not knocking it. Giving those pictures does anybody else not see similarities but also a lot of differences too? Thats not a straight copy like the Lexicon/HK was. Perhaps I am wrong, I am not an electronics engineer. A lot of CDP's use the same components inside but differ in DAC and software written for the unit that would largely change the sound of the unit. I thought my Apollo was the all the cdp I would ever need or hear until I heard a Bryston DAC in my kit. Wrong!! The day a Blu Ray player of any brand is the only cdp I will ever need or hear is the day I sell my gear and leave this hobby alone. lol.

The Lexicon post was ok I guess, but this Ayre post is getting a little out of touch IMO.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3103
Registered: Oct-04
I've had this discussion before and I don't see why the two must be mutually exclusive?
 

New member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 4
Registered: Dec-09
>>>would anyone ever be able to note any hint of a difference between two players
This judgement should be reserved for those able to hear them side-by-side, no?

>>> two players that borrow so heavily from one another.
There is a thread on avsforum wherein Charles Hansen explains that the Oppo is entirely dismantled and recycled except for the ". . . main PCB (with the video decoder, ABT scaler chip, and HDMI transmitter), the transport mechanism, the VFD display, and the remote control handset."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1181755

Given the degree of changes (and Ayre's performance in my living room), I'd be surprised if only a few "golden ears" using "optimized" systems could tell the difference but, again, will leave that to people who have heard/seen both.

Please note that my argument does not in any way detract from the strong argument that the Oppo is a very good player and might be the best value in its class.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3104
Registered: Oct-04
Thanks for the link, a very interesting explanation.

Mr. Hansen states:

"There are other people making Oppo "clones". One of them only replaces the chassis. Another replaces the power supply also. Nobody is rebuilding the complete player and adding the extra features and advanced technology that Ayre is."

While nobody may be rebuilding the complete player and adding the extra features and advanced technology that Ayre is, Oppo itself has made a host of improvements to the original BDP-83 to enhance it's sonics; I wonder how the BDP-83SE would fare against the DX-5?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2872
Registered: Jun-07
I think companies like Ayre design and build great audio equipment. Stuff they design from the ground up themselves. But when it comes to making a Blu Ray player, they dont.lol. I doubt any real audio company make their own Blu Ray players. My dealer was just saying yesterday that he has the new Oppo BDP-83SE in the store and its the best Blu Ray player he has seen in the store yet. And he has seen a lot of them. Look out for the new Cambridge one and three NAD models. They are probably both Oppo's as well though. Oppo have something good. They have always made great Video playback sources. Thats what they do. Ayre makes power amps.lol Nuff said!
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2720
Registered: Nov-05
Having had the Oppo BDP- 83 for some months now after having 2 Panasonics and a Pioneer, I can vouch for them as being exceptional value for money even though they cost twice as much here in Aus. I've had two titles that had problems and Oppo had a fix out in a day or two. They are very quick to respond when sending a queery.

The SE version is for those who wish to use the players decoders and DAC's - for superior sound. For those using HDMI the std player saves money and the sound quality will depend on your reciever/processor. I wish now I could have bought the SE version, but am still very happy with the std Oppo through the Cirris Logic dac's of the Marantz AVR..

One of my dealers who is a Cambridge dealer told me the Cambridge Bluray will be vitually an Oppo BD-83 in disguise.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3107
Registered: Oct-04
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=492&Title=Azur+650BD+Blu-ray+Unive rsal+Player
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3108
Registered: Oct-04
Upon close scrutiny, they are similar.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2724
Registered: Nov-05
It reads just like a BD-83. It's not going to have the same exterior - the dealer did say it would be in disguise. I'm only going by what he said, whether it's the same or not I wouldn't know. The fast loading speed is another of Oppo's virtues and the size is about the same.

Whether they used all the innards or parts of the Oppo is another question. They don't reveal the brand of dac's or the video processor which also makes me suspect it's an Oppo.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3110
Registered: Oct-04
They also use the same Menu.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2876
Registered: Jun-07
Oh yeah!! Thats got to be an Oppo rebadge. Check out the NAD ones, they also have to take something from the Oppo I would think. Oppo always did DVD players like the best of them, looks like they follow trend with their Blu Ray player. Nice!!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 37
Registered: Jul-09
[quote]Ed
Let's see, 1) according to Charles Hansen's posts on the avsforum boards, Ayre doesn't even use OPPO's DAC, instead building their own; 2) according to Steve/William, none of the engineering in the Ayre could possibly make any difference in performance, it's all just "snake oil"; 3) but, hey the new ESS DAC is the shiznit! Whatever . . .

And Steve/William has an interesting definition of "rebadge". I'll bet Ayre doesn't fabricate many parts that go into their products, maybe even none. I guess that means that all their amps are "rebadged" transformers! Or would that be "rebadged" transistors?

Meanwhile, Steve/William's internet scatter-bomb includes claim's that Ayre is going to pocket $9500 profit for each unit sold! Holy cow, are they ever going thru quite the expense to make this free profit, not to mention the trouble of getting their dealers to sell the product without any mark-up. Very generous of all these people to subsidize a crime![/quote]

Hey ed do you work for ayre or are you just a ayre fan boy? Charles on AVS is doing nothing but trying to defend his snake oil product. And yes the ayre DX-5 is using lesser DAC's then the SE version which uses 4x 32bit DAC for 2CH operation which is heads and tails above anything from ayre. Is ayre still using the BB 1704 DCA? Charles admits to not changing anything with the digital, video, and HDMI section so when used with a HDMI section this player will offer no advantage over the base or SE oppo versions.

And I wonder which company can design a better power supply and analog section, oppo who has the engineering ability to design a BD player from scratch or ayer who can not? Even at that just look at their past source units, they are all empty box products.
 

New member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 5
Registered: Dec-09
Hi Steve,

Do you work for Oppo or are you just an angry man? I'm glad to know you acknowledge that stuff like power supplies and analog section can make a difference. Sorry, I see no reason to conclude Oppo can make an overall better product just 'cus they can make what appears to be best BD platform at the moment. Do you really think Oppo doesn't have to make performance compromises for $500? For $500, I can get a state-of-the-art analog section? Really? Speaking of price, I don't mind paying more for Ayre - their stuff is built in the U.S. using mostly U.S. parts and their workers get paid a fair wage. Gee, I wonder if that's true of the Oppo?

I don't doubt Oppo has excellent engineers for what they do. I also don't doubt that Ayre has excellent engineers for what they do, which is to wrest the best performance they can.

I used to think that digital was digital. How could CDPs possibly sound different? Then I heard the Ayre - to my ears, it was head and shoulders above my Magnavox. But, I know . . . it's all just a placebo effect . . . I wanted to spend that money just to feel good about it all. When will I ever learn NOT to trust my experiences. Damn my lying ears!

Have fun with your friends over at Hydrogen!
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3118
Registered: Oct-04
"...and their workers get paid a fair wage."

Any idea what that might be?
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2738
Registered: Nov-05
A lot of people seem to run down Chinese made or in Oppo's case, Chinese assembled products because of the labour issue. Let me tell you that things aren't nearly as bad for Chinese workers as they were some years back. My wife's firm deals with Chinese factories and the workers there are very satisfied with their lot - The factories provided air conditioned workplaces, weekly accomodation and meals as well as fares back and forth for those who need to travel distances. While their pay isn't great compared to our standards, their living standards have improved in leaps and bounds in the more recent years. People need to consider their population and the difficulties in coping with transport, infrastructure, housing and so forth. Sure they have a way to go and some people are still treated badly, but doesn't that apply almost everywhere?

As for you Bruzowksy, what a sh-t poor lawyer you must be as you sure can't seem to listen. Don't you think Ayre would be risking everything to put such a ruse over their customers, you oaf?
 

New member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 6
Registered: Dec-09
>>>Any idea what that might be?
"their stuff is built in the U.S. using mostly U.S. parts and their workers get paid a fair wage". I posted that based on information supplied by Charles Hansen on another board. So, no, I don't know. But we're talking about Boulder, CO - I would guess even their shipping clerk makes >twice the minimum wage, plus they supposedly pay 100% medical. But that's neither here nor there in this thread.

>>>A lot of people seem to run down Chinese made
I'm not interested in running down the Chinese or anyone else. I AM interested in making sure people in my own community and country (USA for me) have sustainable economies. Did you know that the U.S. is now a net exporter of raw goods and a net importer of finished goods. There's a name for that condition: third world country. In our race to consume cheaper goods, we've cut our own throats. But that's also a tangent from this thread.

IMO, the short of it is that there is reason to guess the Ayre improves upon the performance of the Oppo, though that needs to be confirmed in a side-by-side comparison. Assuming that the Ayre makes any improvement, it is up to the customer to decide whether the gain is worth the $$. Steve B. is way over the top throwing out ad-hominem attacks on Charles Hansen - his only evidence of "rebadging" is a photo that shows an Oppo transport in an otherwise ENTIRELY re-built chassis, audio board, and power supply. That would be laughable if not for some of Steve's comments on the other boards which border on hateful.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3119
Registered: Oct-04
I'd still love to know how the Oppo SE stacks up against the Ayre?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14156
Registered: Dec-04
Hey bruz, there goes your entire premise for your post, LOL!
fuckingtroll

You admit that you are wrong on this one too!!!
 

New member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 7
Registered: Dec-09
>>>I'd still love to know how the Oppo SE stacks up against the Ayre?
Me, too. Ironically, I have a much better chance of eventually hearing the Ayre - they have dealers but Oppo appears to be direct only. And actually hearing these players for oneself should be the only thing that matters.

In the meantime, in the avsforum, it appears that Kal Rubinson plans to own the Ayre. He apparently heard a prototype and liked it. This is the same Kal Rubinson from Stereophile who reviewed the Oppo last summer (regular, not SE version) and raved about it, comparing it favorably to his standalone CD/SACD player that costs quite a bit more. And Stereophile just rated the Oppo A+ when its HDMI output is used as a transport; the analog outs were not quite as good as Kal's reference. So, we can see that Rubinson has no credibility on the matter (that's snark in case it doesn't translate well thru the internet).
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2739
Registered: Nov-05
I have the opportunity to get the SE upgrade for my Oppo here, but I think the prices are ridiculous. $1650 for an SE compared to $899 in the US and our dollar has been hovering over the 90c US for some time. So it will depend on the upgrade cost, but I'm not considering doing anything until the new year.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2880
Registered: Jun-07
Steve - Just a few questions, as I don't feel like reading this whole thread... Have you ever sat down in a hi fi shop and listened to a sub 500 amp in a system, and them switch it out with a 4000 dollar amp, and not heard the difference? Have you ever did so with any gear for that matter?

Sure you might have found one, ahhhh maybe Two?? examples of heavy copying of parts, well one anyway. But you talk like this proves that ALL high end gear is a copy. That is bogus. Come one, you never sat down and listened to an 800 dollar NAD amp then switched it out for a 8000 dollar MAC and said, wholly crap...yup....that NAD sure sounds like an 800 dollar amp now. I get it! You ever opened up the top of a an Bryston Amp and said, wholy F&UCK!! Look at the size of the caps and power supply in that thing. Yup, hand made too, thats why its 3 grand. Ever looked inside of a 100 dollar Sony receiver and said, oh yeah thats why it is a 100 dollars. My point is, you have ONE solid fact of a true copy cat product and you turn not one, but three threads into an argument that High End gears is ALL a rip off. That is complete bu!!sh!t.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2740
Registered: Nov-05
I'm not interested in running down the Chinese or anyone else

I wasn't insinuating you were ED, it was just an opportunity for me to make a statement about some that do on this forum.

However, while we always wish to protect workers in our own communities, states and countries, we all should realise that there are people everywhere that need work and food. Australia is no different to the US and many other countries: just about all our manufacturing is moving overseas. We export raw materials and import them back in again in the form of goods.


But there is a positive side, the cheaper manufacturing is an opportunity for many start up companies as well as expansion for existing ones. while we lose workers on one level, we can gain them on another - to a degree.

Nick - good point. You should see the difference of the inners between my Musical Fidelity A5 and the Zindak mono blocks. They make the A5 look almost empty. The sound difference is not imaginary!l
 

New member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 8
Registered: Dec-09
>>>we all should realise that there are people everywhere that need work and food.
Yes, of course. But I don't think the way to help them is to cut down ourselves.

>>>But there is a positive side, the cheaper manufacturing is an opportunity
Yes, it's a complicated issue with many shades of grey, but at the end of the day, "offshore" manufacturing results in jobs lost and depressed wages along with a host of trickle down effects to small businesses in the communities affected.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14160
Registered: Dec-04
Japan did ok.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2741
Registered: Nov-05
But I don't think the way to help them is to cut down ourselves

Of course not Ed, it's competition. Do or die. And yes it causes a lot of death in the jobs market. No one says it's right.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14162
Registered: Dec-04
But Japan adopted healthy conditions for industry under rule of occupation.
China doesn't care about pollution or people, they have lots of both.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14163
Registered: Dec-04
Doesn't matter to the gear or music
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2742
Registered: Nov-05
China doesn't care about pollution or people, they have lots of both

We could say that about North America.

And no it doesn't.

For the sake of Ed's argument (and mine too for that matter) anyone who buys Chinese made is just as guilty as manufacturers getting their goods} made there.

I'm guilty!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14165
Registered: Dec-04
Sentenced to 3 Celine Dion albums.
 

New member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 9
Registered: Dec-09
Hey Steve,
I was "admiring" the diarrhea you're spraying across the, what, 10, 12 sites with your rant and it got me thinking . . .
1) Your argument/evidence of "rebadging" is clearly lame,at least in the case of the Ayre.
2) Your argument of "snake oil" is belied by your own admission that stuff like power supplies and analog section make a difference.
3) It doesn't matter a whit what you or I think about the Ayre. It will be exalted or excoriated on its own merits.

But you're too late to save me from the Borg that is high-end audio. I've heard and drank from the well. I'm too far gone as I now have experienced what it's all about (actually, that happened 30+ years ago, just took this long for me to have the means to buy some of this stuff).

But what I really wanted to share was how your rant reminds me of all the preachers and politicians that rail against gays or infidelity or pedophilia or . . . whatever, and the louder they rail, the more likely it is that they are guilty of the very behavior that they decry. So, I wonder about your experience with selling snake oil. The world truly is a reflection of what we see inside . . . Best wishes.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2744
Registered: Nov-05
Attaboy Ed!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11554
Registered: Feb-05
+1
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 41
Registered: Jul-09
Its funny how the high end has something against new technologies like DAC's and power supplies. It just shows that they are incapable of engineering a new product. We know when used as a digital transport that the ayre will be the same as the oppo for audio and video. When used as a analog transport the new oppo will have an advantage becuase it uses far better DAC's and 4 per channel for 2CH. So why would one buy the ayre?
 

New member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 10
Registered: Dec-09
Hi Steve, Are you the same person that typed this:
"Charles, you have been a fantastic guest, and you have provided us with some serious education about digital audio which we really appreciate!!!
And of course, you have some outstanding products which sound GREAT!!!"
http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=f21e0ae12734fb10e01250a9e7da 54ac&threadid=142485&perpage=20&pagenumber=5

Apparently not!
http://www.avrev.com/forum/blu-ray-players/4294-ayre-dx-5-10-000-rebadged-500-op po-2.html

Meanwhile, the point of your thread re: "rebadge" has been shown to be complete horse manure, so you don't have even an smidge of credibility to claim the Ayre doesn't perform any better, especially when you've never seen or heard the unit. If you want to argue it's not worth $9K more than the Oppo, great - maybe I'll even agree. The Ayre is certainly out of my budget. But it clearly is not a mere rebadge and there are good reasons to guess it will offer superior performance to the Oppo.

I have no idea what your agenda is but it sure stinks . . .
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 45
Registered: Jul-09
Sorry but it is a rebadge since using it with a HDMI connector it will be 100% the same as the oppo and now that the oppo SE has superior DAC's to the ayre why would anyone but an ayre product? Given what we se with their past source units ayre is a snake oil company.

I am interested in doing a DBT with the ayre and the oppo but I guarentee that ayre and the rest of high end audio would not accept that challenge.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 11
Registered: Dec-09
Uh, you started this troll, oops, thread claiming that the Ayre was a rebadge. All the pics I've seen confirm Hansen's description that they use the transport and part of the video board from the Oppo. *Everything* else is replaced. If I adopt your definition of a rebadge, then the Oppo must be a rebadge of the Anchor Bay. LOL!

I guess Oppo is also a snake oil company. They're trying to tell us that changes in the power supply and DAC chip will improve performance. LOL!

See ya later, agitator!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14366
Registered: Dec-04
Ed, you are feeding the troll...
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 48
Registered: Jul-09
The lexicon BD-30 has been proven on the bench to be the same as the oppo so lets get the ayre on the bench. The power supply will be irrelevant as we have seen in the past and the DAC's ayre uses are old and outdated, heck they are still 24 bit DAC's, hahaha.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2939
Registered: Jun-07
Take a real look at the inside of the Ayre. A real picture this time. The thing is built like a tank. The Oppo is empty with your precious DAC. Moron. Your a Moron. Moron.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 51
Registered: Jul-09
Nick do you know what a switching power supply is? Plus the $800 oppo SE used far better DAC's then the $10,000 ayre. If ayre is a serious company then they would send in a unit to audioholics and have it tested.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 54
Registered: Jul-09
Sorry the ayre DX-5 uses the BB DSD1796 DAC, a common DAC used in most receivers by sony, yamaha, denon.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 12
Registered: Dec-09
Hey Troll aka Doug Winsor aka fake Steve Bruzonsky aka Williammaxtor etc etc:

Sorry, You have no credibility left. Over on avrev.com, you're claiming that Ayre dealers are currently "installing" DX-5s. You have no idea what you're talking about, you just know how to lie.

Charles Hansen has been very forthcoming on the thread at avsforum including discussion of what he borrows from the Oppo and what he changes. His latest posts explains that he is currently finalizing the PCB for the HDMI section of the DX-5 - deliveries are not scheduled to start until next month at the very earliest. But, hey, why bother to get your facts straight when you can just make s**t up?

What evidence do you have that the Sabre chip sounds any better than a BB? Is it because it can decode all those 32 bit titles that are out there? Let's see, all ZERO of them? You know, Ayre could put any DAC chip they wanted to in the DX-5. Gee, maybe they have a reason for their choice!

And since you just know that the analog section and power supply can have no bearing on performance, I'm sure you'll stay away from the snake oil that Oppo is putting into the SE version. Oh, but that's the one that has those oh-so-special Sabre DAC chips. Maybe you'll have to pay the SE premium and drink that power supply snake oil to get your precious Sabre chip.

I sure hope your normal life is not as dysfunctional as your internet life.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14428
Registered: Dec-04
I got the SE today!!!
I thought it came in a Cadillac?!?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 56
Registered: Jul-09
[quote]Sorry, You have no credibility left. Over on avrev.com, you're claiming that Ayre dealers are currently "installing" DX-5s. You have no idea what you're talking about, you just know how to lie.[/quote]

Funny thing avsforums is not working right now but in the $20,000+ section there is one installer that said he did infact install a ayre DX-5 last week.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 57
Registered: Jul-09
[quote]What evidence do you have that the Sabre chip sounds any better than a BB? Is it because it can decode all those 32 bit titles that are out there? Let's see, all ZERO of them? You know, Ayre could put any DAC chip they wanted to in the DX-5. Gee, maybe they have a reason for their choice!

And since you just know that the analog section and power supply can have no bearing on performance, I'm sure you'll stay away from the snake oil that Oppo is putting into the SE version. Oh, but that's the one that has those oh-so-special Sabre DAC chips. Maybe you'll have to pay the SE premium and drink that power supply snake oil to get your precious Sabre chip.[/quote]

Sorry ED but the BBDSD1796 is used in many basic receivers and other source units so we see that not only is the ayre DX-5 not using top of the line DAC's they are not even using the new 32 bit DAC's. And you are correct that if you are only using a digital connection the new oppo SE will have no advantage over the base modle but we all know that ED. So when is ayre going to send in their DX-5 to audioholics for a review?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 60
Registered: Jul-09
No takers yet to have their ayre DX-5 reviewed on audioholics?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 70
Registered: Jul-09
Ayre and charles are now trying to downplay HDMI 1.4 and 3D.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 73
Registered: Jul-09
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18163411&postcount=499

You have to read this, I was reading through the ayre thread on avs since I have not posted there for 6 months and it turns out that ayre has not even measured jitter in the DX-5 despite talking up and down how it is better then anything on the market. Charles Hansen of ayre is your typical snake oil sales man, he will sound intelligent at first glance but one you read into his postings one will realise he has no understanding about the aspects of audio, let alone jitter. Keep it up Charles Hansen you are just digging yourself a deeper hole.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 13
Registered: Dec-09
Here's the address to the full thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1181755

We wouldn't want anything to be taken out of context now, would we? I'll take Hansen's advice anyday over some angry, anonymous, agenda-driven audiophobe.

>>>I was reading through the ayre thread on avs since I have not posted there for 6 months

What a happy coincidence to be trolling all across the internet mere minutes after one "HDMIinfinity" was banned from avsforum!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14551
Registered: May-04
.

"What a happy coincidence to be trolling all across the internet mere minutes after one "HDMIinfinity" was banned from avsforum!"



Good point on cross forum trolling which is equivalent to having relations with your mother's pet goat except that d*mn near everyone gets banned from avsforum.


.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 74
Registered: Jul-09
Charles Hansen of ayre thinks ALL processors and receivers are subpar.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18176216&postcount=541

[quote]
But there is no HDMI D/A converter on the planet that sounds even half as good as the analog outputs of the DX-5.

So if the customer only wants it for movies, that is a great plan. For years we have all been listening to 5.1 channels of low-bit-rate MP3, and it has been just fine. The visuals make the sound quality less important for watching movies.

Until someone makes an SSP with Audio Rate Control, discrete analog circuitry, and volume controls at least as good as our $3500 preamp (FET switches and metal film resistors), then anybody who listens to music even once in a while shouldn't mind spending a couple of thousand dollars extra for great music playback.

And they will be still be saving money. To make an SSP with the features noted above would probably cost $25,000 or more. Why spend that much money to get eight channels of incredible sound when eight channels of pretty good sound is all you need for movies? Then you can save your money for where it counts -- those two channels of music playback.[/quote]

Wait, his "opinions" get worse.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18182261&postcount=546

[quote]Yes, but where does the blame lay? I say with the SSP's that butcher the incoming analog signal in countless ways.

And how good will the HDMI connection actually sound? HDMI has far worse jitter than S/PDIF. We have never made a DAC with S/PDIF because it is a flawed format that inevitably degrades the sound quality of the signal. You can read more about this topic in this white paper:


Until such an SSP exists, the only way to get truly high performance music reproduction is to use the analog outputs of the DX-5 (or other single-box player) into a stereo preamp that has a processor passthrough mode. This will serve 99.99% of all music available today.[/quote]

Of course he does not explain why, since he has not even measured the jitter in the DX-5 he is just blowing hot air.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18190992&postcount=551

[quote]c) Nearly all existing SSP's are "flawed" because due to cost and space constraints, they use high-feeback op-amps in the audio signal path and single-chip op-amp-based IC volume controls. There are a few exceptions. The Theta Casablanca uses a system of FET switches and metal film resistors for its volume control. I believe (but am not sure) that the audio signal path is fully discrete, although it also uses feedback. The Levinson No.40 has a different kind of volume control. I believe (but am not sure) that it is the MDAC style of volume control that they used to use in their No.38 preamp. I am unsure of the other details of the No.40's design. The original version was released shortly before the company imploded. I have heard snippets that the version put back into production a couple of years later had some changes.

b) One can take a jittery signal, such as HDMI or S/PDIF, and by throwing money at it, reduce the level of jitter. The more money you throw at it, the lower you can get the jitter. Theta has been building digital products for over 20 years and has some of the best jitter-reduction circuitry around.

But, as I said before, that is just a guess.[/quote]

Sorry charles but it looks like everything you have said is a guess.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18191532&postcount=552

[quote]The final thing to consider is that (to the best of my knowledge) Ayre is still the only company that provides total isolation between the video and audio systems. That is one feature that is very unlikely to ever become common, and yet it remains one of the most important determinants of system performance (both audio and video).[/quote]

To his knowledge, looks like to me charles needs to do some more reading.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 75
Registered: Jul-09
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18176216&postcount=541

[quote]Maybe we will build a "transport" version someday. But only when someone (I guess it will be up to us, as nobody else seems to be willing...) offers a video switcher/scaler that offers galvanically isolated audio outputs and an SSP with the above features. Otherwise, what would be the point?[/quote]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18203168&postcount=562

[quote]In addition, the picture quality of the Ayre should be distinctly better than other players. This is due to both the use of ultra-low noise pure linear power supplies throughout, plus the galvanic isolation between the audio and video sections of the unit.[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_isolation

[quote]Galvanic isolation is used in situations where two or more electric circuits must communicate, but their grounds may be at different potentials. It is an effective method of breaking ground loops by preventing unwanted current from travelling between two units sharing a ground conductor. Galvanic isolation is also used for safety considerations, preventing accidental current from reaching the ground (the building floor) through a person's body.[/quote]

I doubt charles knows what galvanic isolation is and used the term just to sound intelligent.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3192
Registered: Oct-04
What does normal mean, anyway? He might be a bit on the slow side, but my boy Forrest is going to get the same opportunities as everyone else. He's not going to some special school to learn to how to re-tread tires. We're talking about five little points here. There must be something can be done?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 79
Registered: Jul-09
Really, that is your reply? I post up information to show you that charles hansen and ayre audio have no idea about audio designs and that is what you say?
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3193
Registered: Oct-04
10 minutes to Wapner.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14654
Registered: Dec-04
hehehehe
 

Bronze Member
Username: Steve_bruzonsky

Post Number: 88
Registered: Jul-09
Audiophools, are they all the same?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 12281
Registered: Feb-05
So are trolls.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 1216
Registered: Dec-06
Steve Bruzonsky is a rebadged Vinny Gambini.




Without the hot Mona Lisa Vito.
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 908
Registered: Oct-07
Really LOL, Stryvn. I get a visual that makes me want to P my pants.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Beetlemania

Post Number: 15
Registered: Dec-09
Hey fake Bruzonsky, take a look at these pics:
http://www.hometheater.com/content/ayre-acoustics-dx-5-universal-av-engine

That's quite a "re-badge". If you don't think it's worth $10K, fine. Maybe I don't either (tho' I'd probably buy one if I could afford it). But these pics clearly demonstrate the fabrication you started this thread on.
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