Need Help with 2.1 Stereo System Choices
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New member Username: Bcf150Post Number: 1 Registered: Dec-08 | Hello, I am new to home audio and looking to get a simple first setup. I've done a little research, but it is all based on forum opinions and periodical reviews, nothing hands-on. I'm looking for a 2.1 setup that will useful for music and movies. It would be probably 60% for music and 40% movies. The room is basically 20x20 with doors on each of the four walls. The majority of the music I listen to is a combo of easy listening, 80's, and classic rock. However I am not biased and listen to everything from rap, opera, classical, big band, etc. I have a Harmon Kardon HK3490 stereo receiver and a HK DVD48 as my source. I have a Polk Audio PSW10 that I recently bought and plan on keeping it and just upgrading it later. I am looking for a decent set of floorstanding or bookshelf speakers. My budget is around $500. Through research I found that the following are recommended routinely: Paradigm Titan Monitor NHT Classic 3 Axiom M22v2 I am leaning toward the Polk Audio RTi A5 because of their current price on the Polk ebay site. They appear to be a good bang for the buck that I could upgrade later on if I went to a 5.1 setup. I am also considering the Klipsch RF-62 if I can find a deal on them. My only point of reference ( if you can call it that) is a set of Klipsch 2.1 ProMedia computer speakers, other than those all I have as far as speakers are the Sonys that I bought back in 1992 as part of a component stereo system. I am limited due to by location and time constraints from being able to audition any of the ones I mentioned Sorry for the long post and thanks for any help! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2149 Registered: Jun-07 | Brad- My first advice would be to stop shopping at the box stores and find yourself a good local Hi Fi dealer and sit down to listen to some stuff. Get an idea of what you like. Second bit of advice would be to stay away from Polk speakers for god sakes.lol. Just kidding. No really they are crap. (Just my opinion) Out of the speakers you have mentioned I would think the NHT Classic 3's would have the advantage, but can they be had for 500 dollars? Have you heard them with a H/K setup? I know you said your limited due to your location and time, but buying audio un-seen,un-heard is taking a risk. Just make sure whatever you buy has a good 30 day return policy or something. Don't buy anything from Future Crap, and Best Dong as they sell nothing but garbage and their employee's don't know jack $#it! |
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Silver Member Username: LamcamOrange County, CA USA Post Number: 146 Registered: Nov-07 | Polk is not that bad. I have their speakers in my car and they're great. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3113 Registered: May-05 | A car is a completely different environment than a living room. Engine noise, road noise, wind noise, etc cover up a lot of things. They're also different because they need to withstand the climate of a car rather than a consistant temps of a house. Polk make some decent home speakers, but I think there's better for the money. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8355 Registered: Feb-05 | Keep in mind his whole system folks. Among the speakers he's mentioned the NHT's are by far the best, but are they the best with what he will be driving them with...probably not. The NHT's sound pretty sloppy with a mediocre amp so I wouldn't recommend them with the HK. So what then...well Nick is certainly right about hitting the HiFi store and avoiding the big box chains...however you already have the amp and source and so you may not be in the market for a whole system and instead just speakers...oh yeah that's what you said. All this said a good match for your system per your budget and more than one person here may be the Infinity Beta 20...cheap and good. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8356 Registered: Feb-05 | BTW the Titan Monitor is horrible...stay away at all costs. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13179 Registered: May-04 | . My advice would be to buy whatever you like that's the cheapest. You haven't described a single quality of sound that you are trying to achieve. At this point and with your background in car systems, I would say don't worry about what anybody else thinks, they aren't thinking like you are. They are considering qualities that come with a high quality home system, you're looking for tunes. Buy what you like and don't bother with the other stuff. The HK will drive most anything so just find what you like for the music you like. You can buy something much better after you graduate. And don't you guys start giving me grief over this post. You aren't thinking like him, you want soundstaging and imaging. You think he really wants all that crap or knows that he wants it? Buy something now and listen tonight, give it to your little brother in five years. . |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 436 Registered: Dec-07 | I have a pair of Bose 901s that I'll let go for $450 and they'll sound better with the HK than anything you'll find for $500 new. [Do you have a tape monitor loop? ] Seriously, I find it hard to argue with Jan's post. |
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New member Username: Bcf150Post Number: 2 Registered: Dec-08 | Ok, well where to start. Nick K - I have no intention of purchasing from one of the big box stores. Based on my list I am looking at either purchasing on ebay, audiogon, or internet retailer site. I realize I am taking a risk buying unheard but I am trying to minimize the risk by searching for quality opinions. Art - thank you! I found your post to be the most helpful. I have been considering the Betas, but as they are discontinued I haven't had much luck locating any. Jan - your post was not useful and was very condescending. I am not in school and never mentioned anything concerning car audio (see loc's post for that). Please take the time to actually read my post before treating me like a child. I am well educated and live a comfortable lifestyle. I have found that when starting a new hobby it's best to start slow and not jump in and buy expensive equipment that you don't know how to use properly. Soundstaging and imaging, I understand the terms and concepts, however quality of sound I don't understand. I would think that the best quality that can be said of a sound system would be that if you closed your eyes you would not be able to locate any individual speaker and your ears would have you believe you were either: A. in the front row of the bands concert or B. being chased by a cloned T.Rex. All kidding aside I am merely looking to get the best speakers for my situation, which was listed in the first post. I want to start with a small investment, learn the ropes, and then be able to make a purchase for a "high quality home system" once I have enough knowledge to justify the expense. An analogy for my position: expensive high end speakers= F1 race car. I don't have the skills or expertise to get the full benefit of either of those, so why spend my retirement on either? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2157 Registered: Jun-07 | Brad- Art's suggestion to get the Beta's is a great one indeed. You can buy them here : http://search.stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio_beta-20_W0QQfciZ15QQfclZ3QQfsnZHarman Q20AudioQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQfsubZ10225969QQsaselZ26519532QQsofpZ0 You can thank Christopher M for the link. You can get a pair of those nice little speakers for roughly 50 bucks shipped. As I like to say B O I N G. Happy listening. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 438 Registered: Dec-07 | OK, I suppose they could be moved to the surround duty in the future in the 5.1 scheme. However, I would want to know why when they sold for $400 per pair in 2005 you can now find throngs of people lining up to give them away on eBay for $50 each. And why all these remanufactured units? Oh well, what can you lose for $100? ---->$100. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2158 Registered: Jun-07 | I hear what your saying Neil. Weird thing is, is that they are being sold that cheap by Harmon Corp themselves.lol |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13185 Registered: May-04 | . " I don't have the skills or expertise to get the full benefit of either of those, so why spend my retirement on either?" Uh, wait a minute. You called me condescending for putting in words what you just said?!!! Wait another minute. Nope, last time I checked you still haven't named a single quality you want from a speaker. "I want it to disappear" is about as helpful as "I want clear highs and tight bass". Tell that to the guy working out of his garage when you buy on the internet. He'll have exactly what you want. Tell him about the doors too. That'll matter when what you actually buy doesn't. ROTFL Sometimes, Brad, a post is as helpful as you make it. That you're not in school doesn't change my advice. (Ya'know, all these "tell me what I should buy" threads kinda run together after awhile.) And you aren't the first person to get their rump up in the air when I tell them how I think they should proceed to spend their money. Most, if they stick with me, will get around to buying something decent. Some don't. They want this forum to be responsible for their mistakes. I've made enough mistakes over the past forty years doing this that I don't need to be responsibile for anyone else's problems. So, that's the decision you have to make right now. Stick with me and learn something or call me another name, I'll forget about you and go answer some frat kid's question about why his receiver blows up all the time and you are the one who gets screwed. Or, go buy what Art likes and then you can blame him when those speakers don't disappear. Your choice. First things first, we can't tell you what to buy. Some of us like to think they can but you have to make the decision yourself and us telling you what we like isn't - or shouldn't be - the deciding factor in your decision. You can go to a dozen magazines and find exactly the same advice for $4.95 and you don't have to put up with holes like me. So, you want to know what to buy, go look in a magazine and find the five or six speakers they recommend. They write nice, I don't. I tell you what you need to hear. Then go to a decent store and listen. Second things second, you don't know what you are listening for. If you can't define "soundstage" and "imaging", how are you going to know it's there }}when you have to have us tell you it exists? Let me give you an idea how many qualities you could be listening for when you audition a speaker; http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html Now, print that out and take it with you when you go to a store so you'll at least sound a bit like you have done this before. Third things third, OK, so what are you going to listen for? The speakers disappearing? That's it?! What if they don't? What if they sit there on a wall with the other dozen speakers in the room hooked up though a comparator? "SH!T!!! They aren't disappearing! Uh, you got anything with a T-Rex on it?" "Double SH!T!!! I can't even hear a f'ing T-Rex through $500 speakers. Now I'm really screwed!" Oh, wait, you're buying from an internet dealer, or Audiogon or some schmuck you won't even talk to. No audition, no disappearing speakers and no T-Rex! OK, now you really are screwed!!!!!!!! I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, BC, but you're an idiot! And you only came here because you think we're idiots too. Well, I'm a hole but I'm not an idiot. If you don't want to waste your money, don't buy something you haven't heard. Period. End of the post. Read it and ignore it because you're going to anyway. People like you always do. And if you do, I don't care. You want help? Go to a dealer and listen to what they have to say and what they have to sell. Going to Best Buy and listening would be better than buying without listening at all. And don't buy nuthin' just because you get a discount. Guy, you've got this so wrong. Now, all kidding aside - otherwise, my earlier advice still holds because what you get doesn't matter. . |
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New member Username: Bcf150Post Number: 3 Registered: Dec-08 | Jan - I have to say you gave me a good laugh when I read your last post. I hope you feel better. I must say however that it doesn't speak well of your intelligence or maturity that you must resort to name calling to express your differences of opinion. If you would read my other posts critically from my point of view I think you might take a different approach. I agree with you, the only definitive way to buy the speakers I would enjoy the most would be to go to a hifi store and ask to be allowed to audition a few at home. I agree with you that at the level I want to spend there will be significant weaknesses in any offering I may choose. I agree with you that I don't have the knowledge or experience to properly audition a set of high end speakers to your stated level. I admitted that I did not know what sound qualities you were referring to in your post and I tried to describe what I think would be the best for me. One that is so transparent that you believe it is "live" sound as opposed to a recording. I refuse to use terms that I don't understand such as airy, crisp, warm, bright etc. I have tried to be honest about my limitations instead of simply pretending to be an audiophile, yet you choose to mock me. So, once again, surely there are a few known speakers in the $500-600 per pair range that are considered to be above the rest of the pack by those with experience. As far as my questions being just like so many other posts, thats part of learning. If you don't ask you will never learn. If you are tired of these types of questions, why choose to answer? I would like nothing better than to learn from your experiences and the others on this site. However you didn't encourage that, you simply tried to send me on my way to continued ignorance about this subject. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13187 Registered: May-04 | . I did not mock you. I gave you advice that you chose to see as mocking. Your loss. I didn't try to send you on your way. I tried to send you to a dealer. Even an audition at Best Buy is better than buying something you've never heard and you don't know what it sounds like because you don't understand what someone is saying when someone says this speaker has this or that quality. You just want a brand and model number. Those qualities any one speaker might have don't matter to you because you've made it plain you don't care to know what they are. Otherwise, you would see that you cannot choose a speaker over the internet. You do not have the skills or the refinement for a "good" speaker. So you'll buy one that's on sale. How's that different than my first piece of advice to you? You would not like to learn anything. If you did, you would go into a dealer's showroom and listen to some music. I called you an idiot because you are. I called myself a hole, which I'm not. I'm actually very nice and very helpful. You'll never find that out. You would like us to tell you what to buy. Go to it, guys. I've got a frat boy to talk to. . |
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New member Username: Bcf150Post Number: 4 Registered: Dec-08 | Jan - I have understood everything you've posted. I even told you that I agree with most of what you've posted. But you still haven't understood what I'm seeking. I don't what you to tell me what to buy. I am merely looking for search ideas. Such as the NHT's. With limited knowledge about available offerings how can I do research? I had never heard of NHT, I'm sure there are others out there as well that I should consider. I am not an idiot. You are a hole. Don't believe me, simply read your posts. You've been nothing but argumentive and nasty to me. As proof of your failure to read my post, I never said that I would not do any auditions. I said I couldn't audition the ones I mentioned and then said that I preferred to make the purchase through the sources I listed. I took issue with your first post because you brushed aside my questions and throughout the post, you attributed statements to me that I didn't post. Since then you've stated that I'm an idiot, even though I haven't argued your main points, and have managed only the advice that I should go listen to something. So, I'm not sure what issues you have, but I am simply searching for help in picking out cheap speakers that will satify me in my cheap, mediocre little system. Please skip the attitude and help me learn what I should look for so I'm not a sheep entering the lions den when I do audition. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13189 Registered: May-04 | . "As proof of your failure to read my post, I never said that I would not do any auditions. I said I couldn't audition the ones I mentioned and then said that I preferred to make the purchase through the sources I listed." Wait ... ugh, ... wait ... oooooh, it feels better when I stop banging my head against hard things. Brad, I've taught you all you need to know about how to buy what. If you've understood what I've said, why haven't you taken the advice and scampered down to a shop to listen to something? That's my advice, Brad. Otherwise, my advice is what I first posted. Sorry, that's it. You either have some idea what you want or you don't. There are speakers that "disappear" that otherwise sound atrocious. There are speakers that don't disappear because they've been shoved into a room with two dozen other speakers and nothing can disappear when it's being driven by a piece of cr@p receiver that has to go through a comparator box - but the speakers are still good - just not in that setting. "So, I'm not sure what issues you have, but I am simply searching for help in picking out cheap speakers that will satify me in my cheap, mediocre little system." Anything will satisfy someone who only wants something mediocre, Brad. Anything. Why'd you come here if you only wanted mediocre? Why did you come here if what you buy boils down to finding a "good deal"? Brad, the way I still see this, either you're asking me to give you a model number to buy or you're asking me to tell you everything I've learned about audio in the last forty plus years. Now then ... I've tried to boil this down to what I've learned from having dealt with clients like you when I was selling this stuff. Either it's important to you or it's not. If it's not, then you just go buy something. It doesn't much matter what because you really won't know how it compares to anything else even after we tell you what we think - not how it compares to other speakers and most particularly not to what live music sounds like. Closing your eyes and expecting the speakers to disappear while the band appears is probably not going to happen at $500 or less. You can buy some really good speakers for $500 - or less - but part of knowing - not being told - what to buy is also knowing what to expect for the money you have in your account. You gotta go out and listen to know that, Brad. I can't give that to you and no one else here really can either. You have to hear it and you have to feel when its what you want. Not what I want and not what Art wants. What you want. You can go through the archives of this forum and find out what we think about the various speakers. People have talked about all the things you've mentioned and ones you haven't. You can buy a $5 magazine and find out what they think about the speakers. None of that matters, BC. You have to pick your own stuff. Otherwise, my first post is still valid. What do you like, Brad? What sort of sound appeals to you? Not that "disappearing" stuff. What sort of qualities are important to you? I ask because when someone used to come into the shop and say, "I want a speaker that does ... ", and what they were saying was they didn't know what they wanted, then that's usually what they ended up with. "I want clear mids." OK, this speaker has clear mids. "I want tight bass." OK, that speaker has tight bass. But for $500 you can't have both. Hifi is a game of compromises. If you get one thing, you give up two things. You have to figure out where you'll compromise and where you won't. You haven't done that yet. At least not here and not with wanting the speakers to "disappear". So, if I'm going to help you, you need to tell me exactly what you want in the sound quality. Do that and I might be able to steer you toward a direction. But I'll tell you now, I don't give product recommendations. That's what these other guys do, they go out and listen to all this stuff and then come back and tell you to buy this or that. Me? I can tell you how to listen and what to listen for. The rest you have to do yourself. Now, about that statement at the top of this post. Brad, you don't want to know what I think of anyone who goes out to a store and takes up a salesperson's time auditioning equipment and then screws that salesperson by buying the same thing online. In my book that's stealing. Tell me that isn't what you meant you were going to do when you posted what you posted. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13192 Registered: May-04 | . If you want to, Brad, just ask the others for their advice on a speaker to buy. Like I said, they like doing this stuff. |
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New member Username: Bcf150Post Number: 5 Registered: Dec-08 | Jan - To start this off , no I had no intention of go to a store and listening to speaker A only to go and buy it off the internet. I meant that statement as saying I will go to a store and listen and try to determine what I like sound wise and if I don't find it, I can then ask using the dictionary you provided in the link. I believe you and I are trying to accomplish the same goal, but are having communication issues. As to the cheap mediocre part -- No I didn't come here for that, but Art stated that my HK receiver was mediocre and you told me to buy the cheapest speakers. Ok going forward, on sound quality, I will try my best to describe what I would like. There is a track on the Focal Demonstration Disc 1 called "Dock on the Bay", it is a hi fidelity recording of an instrumental song. Ideally I would be able to locate where each instrument was in the piece, I could hear the pick strumming against the guitar - not just guitar sounds. The bass guitar would have a controlled beginnig and ending - nothing boomy or overbearing. If I was listening to a vocal track it would be obvious where each singer was located in the room as opposed to all the voices coming straight at me. Judging by other posts, I would think that I like a more natural sound as opposed to obviously accentuated sounds. An example would be a sub that adds substance to the front speakers as opposed to playing low frequencies that overwhelm the fronts. Does that make any sense? I realize I most likely can't achieve that with what I have as current equipment and the limited funds I have to buy a stereo pair. I am basically looking for a set that provides detail and clarity from the highs-mids, and can produce enough midbass so that I could get them to blend nicely with the addition of a sub. I promise I will not be that hard to impress. I currently listen to music on computer speakers and tv/movies through the speakers on my TV. Hopefully this makes some sense to you and thanks for taking the time to help me. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3115 Registered: May-05 | Brad, A million things are running through my mind, so I'll try to make this somewhat organized. I'm assuming you're going to sit down and listen to music with minimal distractions. You're main focus and intent isn't background music while you're doing other things (although that doesn't mean you'll never do this). If you're looking for background music, buy a combination of whatever looks best, fits your space best, and fits your price range best. Its not worth it if you're not sitting down and listening. I don't mean that in a condesending way. A lot of people buy speakers for this purpose and I'm not criticizing them. Forget about refined or superior listening abilities. That's all a bit pretentious if you ask me. Its all about enjoying your music. nothing more, nothing less. Different speakers will do different things. But to truely get an idea of everything a speaker is doing, they need to be set up properly and be in a good acoustic room. We can discuss the details of those at a later time. If you're going to throw the speakers wherever they look best or fit right, you're wasting your time. Pick what I suggested earlier. No speaker will perform right if it isn't set up properly. Forget the dictionary for a second. Different speakers will do different things and have different strengths and weaknesses. When listening to speakers, listen for a few different things (these are loose definitions) - Tone - This is the most obvious thing that everyone can hear IMO. By tone, I mean how the music sounds at the most basic level. Is it piercing, muffled, clear, smooth, etc? Imaging - Only happens when the speakers are set up right. Music shouldn't come from the boxes. Instruments and voices should be should have their own distinct spaces - Ahead of the plane of speakers, behind the plane, between them and outside of them, and above and below them. Everything shouldn't be jumbled in the middle nor should it be coming from the speakers themselves. Soundstage - Similar to imaging, but the height, width, and depth of the entire performance. The main criteria should be if it sounds like live music. Your reference shouldn't be any stereo. You should be trying to re-create the performance, not trying to get crisp highs, warm mids, or anything else along those lines. Just listen to some stuff and ask yourself if it sounds enough like live music to you. Keep in mind that everyone listens for different things. Its like a painting - people focus on different aspects of it. Everyone sees the overall picture, but everyone has a different interpretation because they focus on different things (among other factors). I'm not asking you to answer all these questions, but ask yourself - When sitting 10' - 15' away from the speakers, do you want the music to be right in front of you, or pushed back as if you were in the back of a venue? Different speakers will image at different depths, hence forward and laid back (in a way). My current speakers bring the soundstage close to me. My old PSBs' soundstage rarely broke the front plane of the speakers; they sounded like music was coming from behind the speakers. What tradeoffs are you willing to make? Another way to ask the same question - what qualities are most important, and what is least important. Is the clarity of the speaker more important than the size of the soundstage? Will you sacrifice loudness for clarity? No speaker is going to give you everything nor perfect anything. Why do you need tower speakers if you have a subwoofer? For $500, you're far better off with a monitor speaker than a tower IMO. Tower speakers add more cabinet materials and drivers. The cabinets won't be that good. Most easily notable will be bass quality. Cheap cabinets vibrating won't do bass (or anything else) any favors. A smaller cabinet for the same money will most often be more solid. In your instance, your subwoofer should be handling the majority of the bass, not your speakers. Placing the sub correctly will yield a near seemless integration. The single best thing you could do is go to a hifi shop and listen to gear. Listen to cheaper and more expensive gear as well as gear in your range. You may find an extra $100 will get you so much more, or you may find you can get what you want for less than you thought. There's only one way to find out what your money will get you. There's only one way to find out which speakers you like. My only concrete recommendations are to listen to properly set up speakers in a good environment, and strongly consider monitors over towers. There are a bunch of very good monitiors in the $500 range. They all sound different, and may not be the best match with your gear. Off the top of my head - PSB, Paradigm, NHT, B&W (possibly), Energy, and I believe Totem Dreamcatchers and/or Mites. The Best Buy/Circuit City stuff isn't going to give you what these probably will IMO. Not that you can't find a diamond in the rough in those stores, but that's the exception rather than the rule. That's more typing than I wanted to do. Sorry if I confused the issue more. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13195 Registered: May-04 | . "To start this off , no I had no intention of go to a store and listening to speaker A only to go and buy it off the internet. I meant that statement as saying I will go to a store and listen and try to determine what I like sound wise and if I don't find it, I can then ask using the dictionary you provided in the link." Brad - Try this again. It doesn't make sense to me. I hope you're saying you will go to a store to listen and to buy. Forget the internet. It's a good place to waste money when what you need is to know what various speakers do. That's it, BC! You really don't need to know any more than that. IMO knowing what "imaging" is only screws things up at your price range and level of experience. Forget all the audio blather, the salesperson will explain what you have heard. Just don't have them telling you to listen for such and such. Just listen, then explain what you've heard and listen to what the salesperson tells you back. The place to learn about the hifi terms in is your own home when you can relax and listen to the music you know. You'll hear something and you'll begin to understand what the reviewers talk about. In the store pick a speaker that sounds right. I hate to tell you but what you described as your desires still will not be found in a $500 speaker. You'll hear it, most everything you describe you can hear through a $500 speaker but what you'll find is each speaker will perform the same task differently. Some will do the tone of a guitar better while others will separate vocals more completely. Some will separate vocals well and then one day you'll hear another speaker that makes each voice just as distinct but also makes all the voices work together as a whole. That's when you start to go nuts because you always have to make compromises. You can't pick that by us telling you which speaker to audition. You have to know what you're listening for and then you have to forget you're trying to hear that particular quality. Most often that sort of improvement in sound quality comes as a surprise when you weren't even expecting it. Something in the system changes and suddenly - it's there. Then you have to compromise and decide what is most important to you - not us. Because that speaker will probably also fail in some other area where another speaker succeeds. You get the advice I gave almost all my clients. Go listen to some live music before you spend money on a speaker. Figure out what it is about live music that you find interesting and then find the speakers that do that. That's what it comes down to. As has been said, the speakers should remind you of something you hear when you hear live music. Doesn't even matter if they don't disappear - though most small speakers in the $500 range should do a good job of that when they are set up right. So go listen to some music and then some speakers. Don't rush into buying something just to have something new but don't get paralyzed into inaction. It's only hifi. You are going to hear speakers that out do whatever you buy today. So nothing must be forever. Just listen and think. Forget price. Just listen and think. This isn't brain surgery. People do it everyday. One thing - don't let a salesperson tell you what you should own. Audio salespeople have a bad habit of telling people what they own isn't what they should have. If a store doesn't carry what you own as an amplifier, too many salespeople will tell you that you shouldn't have bought that brand. They're entitled to their opinion but their opinion doesn't have to be what you own and it doesn't have to intimidate you into thinking you can't get good sound with what you already own. The HK receiver will drive any speaker you should be able to afford. The HK DVD isn't the best source but it's what you own. Start there and work with what you have. Get your speakers and then listen. Then you can make upgrades when you feel they are needed. See if your local library has this; http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-High-End-Audio/dp/0964084953 Just go listen and decide. Whatever you buy will be a step in the right direction if you listen. If you have a local audio shop, go there first. Call ahead and ask for the manager. Tell them what you are looking for and ask if they could suggest a salesperson who is good with your type of needs. Then make an appointment for an audition on a quiet weekday when the store isn't busy. Then just listen. That's all there is to it. Every one of us has been through it already |
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Silver Member Username: LamcamOrange County, CA USA Post Number: 147 Registered: Nov-07 | Brad, add Focal and Triangle to your list. I like them a lot. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 69 Registered: Mar-08 | Hi Brad, Most of the folks on this forum have much more experience with audio equipment than I do. Most of them have had the ability to demo and compare many more types of equipment than I have. But I am an engineer and a closet musician as well a lover of music of almost all types. I can say that about a year ago I woke up and decided that my music system was woefully inadequate. This was an awareness that I'd had for a few decades (I was still living with the $500 speakers I bought 15 years ago), but it didn't hit the priority list of expenditures until recently. Perhaps similar to you, I had a budget in mind, assumed that speakers would be the most important choice, did some minimal research to discover some brands that I thought might be a candidate, tripped over this forum, and started a thread about whether I should go with configuration A or B of a particular brand of speaker to start acquiring my new dream system. I have to say that in that one thread, we wandered all over the place from whether it go 5.1 vs 2.1 vs stereo to whether there was any decent source material for HD 5.1 available, to whether it would be better to have a subwoofer with small speakers vs a tower with no subwoofer, to how much budget to allocate between speakers, amps, and source, to what type of amp might be needed to get decent sound, to why digital processors common in A/V receviers might scramble the fidelity, to what type of sound I was hoping to achieve, etc., etc., etc. - It was a rather rambly thread that I learned a lot from. If you want to see what I mean ... https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/456724.html If JV had noticed my thread, he might have given met some similar input that he's giving you. So, if I try to get to the point, rather than continuing to ramble... 1) When you're trying to figure this all out (what system to get on whatever budget you have and whether you are going to get to somewhere you want to be), it's hard to know where to start. 2) If you start down the "Audio Reviews" path, you eventually find that there aren't many helpful reviews out there - almost anything that gets reviewed is going to be said to be NOT is good as something much more expensive, and perhaps not as good as my stuff, but pretty competitive for what it is and and what it costs - and all described with a lot of terms that I couldn't exactly define, but made me wonder about whether I didn't quite have the silver ears that the reviewer had. And as an engineer, I could tell you quite a bit about measurements and what all that means - but much less about how the measurements of any given component in combination with another set of components with their own respective measurements are going to sound in your environment to you (or me for that matter). Other than finding out about the dimensions, weight, cost, and external apparence of some pieces of gear, there might be a question about how much more value you will find in the reviews. (But if you do lock into some idea that you want it, the hype makes you feel pretty cool that you might own it!!!). 3) Unlike you I was trying to buy a pretty high end (and presumably expensive) system and to do it right in the first step. Like you, I believe, I had a budget, but hadn't spent much time actually trying to even listen to systems at the few audio stores I did have access to. It sounds like in your case, this might help you get a better idea of what 'might be achieveable' with existing technology at the high end of the price range. And this would probably help you refine your tastes in what you might hope the speakers you are trying to select in your price range are going to do - though it might also make you somewhat unhappy with what can be done in that price range. The common thread I've gotten from some of the best folks in this forum is to make decisions based on listening - if you like everything you hear from some gear, then you can stop looking. If you don't, then you have more listening to do to see if you can find something you like better. Now, the sad part of this is that - it takes time to do this listening - and even if you have time, you won't have access to all the equipment you want to audition - or at least not all at the same time - and more than likely it won't be in the room that you will be putting it in - and sadly the room (and its acoustics) makes a big difference in how it will sound. But that being said - listening is about the best shot you've got at finding something you can live with. 4) There is a lot of variability in equipment in general, and at the price range you are talking about, there is a lot of variability in equipment. None of it, in any prices range, is ideal - some is just less-ideal than others. We all want a bargin and the experienced folks here can suggest various sets of equipment that might provide some "generally good" sound for the price. In fact they are so good that they will take the equipment and budget constraints you've given them and attempt to wrap the best choices around your stated objectives - which perhaps are not sufficiently specific to know whether the recommendations are going to be quite right. In general, they can probably stear you away from some bad choices, but there are way too many possibilities of what you might care about for them to know what to tell you to buy without you being directly in the decision process (of course your are - but the point is you need to validate their recommendations for yourself). But I at least found many of their suggestions helpful in considering more options and other possibilities. It maybe that you really just want a recommendation within the constraints you have actually stated. And you will find that kind of help here. But it sounds you might be also asking a bigger question (that I would know to ask now and didn't when I started) which is to help me figure out how I figure out how to get the sound I want out of my music system - even though I can't even describe to you what it is that I want. If I you are really asking the latter question, I might suggest the following: Try to figure out a target for where you want to end up (at least for the near term) in terms of sound you really want to get, and start figuring how to get from where you are at to where you want to be without locking yourself into to any specific constraints (for instance, if the end game will replace all you're existing gear, you may not want to worry about trying to make piecemeal choices that are optmized around your existing equipment). You can probably spend a lot more going through too many 'iterations' of 'better' than if you make the jump to the end game. The budget you indicate may get you to your end game, but it sounds like you have expectations that are going to exceed your price range - though that's not to say that you can't get decent sound in almost any price range. There is a wealth of information in the forums on this site - keep reading and keep asking more questions. Ask them here and now while you have our attention if we can be of help. Notice - I haven't really answered any of the questions you asked and am only trying to confuse you at a different level - which is how I would describe where I see myself now. If you eventually figure out that you are an "audiophile", you may actually come to enjoy the sense of frustration that comes from a never ending quest to get one step closer to an unachievable goal on a finite budget. God help us forsaken lot. Also, my apologies, I am only a bronze member, but by the time I get to silver, I believe I will learn to cut the length of my posts by at least a factor of two - but probably will never be as pithy as Nuck. |
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New member Username: Bcf150Post Number: 6 Registered: Dec-08 | Rick - thank you for the advice. I have put a hold on my speaker purchase for now, until I have had the opportunity to audition a few different sets. Once I have completed that I feel I will be better able to ask questions that will help me make a final decision. I wish I had seen your post before I made my other purchases. However I will not be able to replace my HK receiver and player as I just recently bought them and my accountant(read spouse) would veto any replacement purchases. I will keep this updated once I have more information. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 71 Registered: Mar-08 | Brad - patience is a virtue and sometimes pays off. I'm not familiar with your equipment so I wasn't saying anything good or bad about it - again others are probably better with where to go from where you're at. If you're made some choices already, then that's where you are and just run with it. If you've been only listening to computer speakers for a while - you have a lot of room to be very plesantly surprised. Good luck and enjoy yourself (the figuring out stuff is supposed to be part of the fun!!!). |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 72 Registered: Mar-08 | Sorry - (can't seem to be brief) - but one more thing... Don't sweat the audition - bring a few CDs that you really like, are very familiar with, and that you think are pretty good recordings (figure out a few tracks that you want to try before you go). I think it helps to listen to at least some music with acoustic instruments (guitar, violin, human voices singing melodically, etc.) to see how the system hands them - you'll have a better chance of hearing something that either sounds right or wrong with a natural vs. electronically 'enhanced' instrument. You might also ask the dealer to play some music of whatever type you like that he thinks is a good recording if you have any doubts about how good you're choices are. Ask to demo the music (same songs) on some systems above, below, and at your target price range so you can compare the same music in different systems. For the equipment you already own, ask the dealer which system set up would most closely match those pieces sonically (this is iffy at best, but perhaps worth the question) to get perspective on how your gear might sound with a given speaker. If the dealer has more than one show room, ask him about how the rooms are different relative to their room treatments - particularly handy if you can hear the same gear (or at least comperable gear) in two different venues to get some idea of how much the room can affect things. If you're considering specific brands, ask him how that brand might line up with the models in the brands he carries relative to price and sound. Ask him what he likes in that price range - though keep in mind he wants to sell you what he has in the store (which is not a bad thing since you can at least listen to it). On speakers, might want to ask how long they've been run in - many speakers take a few hundred hours of run in before they settle out. If you start to home in on a few alternatives (e.g. A or B), try to compare them in the same room with the same attached equipment. Ask the dealer how he would characterize the differences between the ones you like best. The dealer might even let you bring in your gear to try it with the speaker you are considering or let you demo the speakers at your home - it doesn't hurt to ask. Avoid an impluse buy - listen on one visit - analyze what you think about what your heard - write it down even so you won't forget - what you liked and didn't like - go back a second time after a few days or a week and see if you still have the same impression about the sound of the equipment. You've said enough already to say that you can hear - and you will hear differences - it may take some time to get an idea of what range of differences there are and what you like and don't like about the sound from a given system that is more 'capable' than you are used to. The more you dig into this, the more questions will come up. They don't all have exact answers and some answers may not fit your needs or experience - but they are all informative and help you put things into perspective (or at least a sort of fuzzy focus). |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13214 Registered: May-04 | . "Other than finding out about the dimensions, weight, cost, and external apparence of some pieces of gear, there might be a question about how much more value you will find in the reviews." Not bad advice there, RR. Those who have been here awhile know my necessary specs include H, W, and D to find out if it will fit where you want it to go. Then you need to know weight to find out whether you should ask your neightbor for the loan of his pick'em up truck to get the thing home. After that, take the magazines into the bathroom where you can look at the pictures in leisure. After that, specs generally don't mean squat till you're looking through the owner's manual at home. BC - You own what you own. Make the best of what you own by making smart choices in other areas and don't let anyone tell you you can't get good sound because what you own isn't what they like. Almost any system can produce listenable if not very enjoyable sound if know what you want and you know how to get there. . |
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