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Audio Context

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Archive through April 29, 2008John Ashman100
Archive through April 25, 2008francis joseph100
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Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12570
Registered: May-04
.

"Jan, measurements won't tell us if something sounds good or bad to anyone necessarily, but it will tell us if something is *wrong* or if the product is on the right track towards accomplishing its goal."




Fine! Then stop wagging them in my face like they are the only thing that matters. They are tools for the designer. And one of them - "Jan, tell me what this graph means" - doesn't mean a thing.

Got it?


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12571
Registered: May-04
.

"Let's say that you hear a Rega and a Linn CD player. You hear that the Rega is clearly better, blows away the Linn in very specific ways. Someone else compares them and comes to the exact opposite conclusion. A third person isn't sure if there's a difference at all.

What does that mean? Anything?"



It means they all have diferent priorities. That's what it means. If their priorities are based on a personal reference and consistent from one judgement to the next, that's what counts. Not a graph!


Got it?

.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12572
Registered: May-04
.

"It could very well be that a Rega Planet or Apollo blows away an NAD C542, but if it does, I'd like to see it proven as I had no such experience as a dealer."


You can't hear!


"Let me ask you this hypothetical."


You are trying to dance on the head of a pin, fishy, and you ain't no angel.



DBT DBT DBT DBT DBT DBT


Go away, fishy!

.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 151
Registered: Apr-08
Jan, for someone who claims to know so much, you sure can't answer very many simple questions.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 273
Registered: Jul-07
"Well, Chris, I kinda remember everyone talking about NAD getting "blown away" or "only hearing music for the first time *after* NAD" and "it's not even close" etc, etc. "

Yep, their experiences. If you have different then state your experience, don't tell people they are WRONG !

"Let's say you took a DBT to prove you were right. "

Right about what ? Right about what I like best ? I know what I like best. I'm not trying to be right about anything other than I know what I hear, and what I like. And yes I could pick my DAC out over the NAD it replaced, and have. So now what ? Hmmm ? Would the world come to a freakin' end if someone actually heard differences in audio components ? Is that what you're afraid of ? Because then you couldn't sell just anything, could you ? And then what ? You couldn't tell your Customers that different gear would sound different, and they might like it better/worse than your gear so they better shop around. That every problem was room and speaker issues. Heck, I don't know why you even sell electronics if they all sound the same. How do you live with yourself ? If you want to think this through John I'm more than willing but YOU have to think it through too.

"My beliefs aren't sacred to me"

Worse, you have a vested interest in having them. Don't you. I think that's it, isn't it John.

"I'm saying that most differences are subtle, subjective and not inherently better, just different most of the time."

See, and then you go and admit that there ARE differences. And, again, the degree is up to the perceiver isn't it John. We already agreed on that so let's not tread that ground again. Subtle to you perhaps, but maybe not to them ? Hmmmm?

You're a human contradiction John. And round and round we go.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 153
Registered: Apr-08
Chris, not saying they're wrong exactly, just that it comes across as such an exaggeration that one wonders if there's even any truth at all buried in there. I have customers with really good hearing and they are very cautious and deliberate when describing differences, but I find that they are very astute and hear the things I hear. They don't use terms like "blow away". And they can describe subtle differences in great detail. Newbies use terms like "blow away".

As for my beliefs being vested, that's clearly not true. I could make more money if I were to go against all my belief and experiences and just BS the crap out of people using marketing terms such as PRaT or "faster" to describe expensive European machinery, but I'd rather forego that kind of sale and stick to reality.

And as i say, we have the difference between a $200 and $300 speaker and it is provably greater than the difference between a $200 CD player and a $20,000 CD player, no matter how much hyperbole is attached. That is provable. The differences in electronics are interesting, occasionally noteworthy, but attaching big 'action' words to them does a huge disservice to the hobby and generally keeps people from getting involved at all because they think it's populated by nut jobs going on and on about the dramatic difference of nothing.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 274
Registered: Jul-07
Alrighty then. So let's recap.

1) You don't like the words people are using to describe the differences they hear.

2) Your beliefs that NAD is pretty much as good as it gets isn't a conflict of interest, even though you sell, you know, NAD.

3) Speakers sound more different than cd players.


Does this sum it up. Cuz if it does I'm pretty sure you could have gotten that message out more succintly. The first statement is silly. The second one you have no credibility. And all I can conjure up for the third one is a big "who cares".
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 705
Registered: Dec-06
lol "You're a human contradiction John. And round and round we go."

But he has customers with really good hearing. And they're cautious. He must know what he's talking about.

outside of his "action" word phobia, he seems normal to me.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 155
Registered: Apr-08
1. I don't like when people use hyperbole to describe small, possibly non-existent differences.

2. I think Masters is as good as it gets, as is YBA, C-J, BAT and a whole bunch of really genuinely good stuff. That people can or claim to hear differences between them is not terribly meaningful as to what is 'better' nor is it likely to be anything at all more useful than personal preference or belief.

3. Speakers are several orders of magnitude more different than CD players. In fact, when people ask me what the most important aspects are, I say speaker, room, setup in no particular order, followed by amps, preamps, and CD players being dead last these days.

4. You have the same credibility with me as I have with you.

5. If you care so little, why the anger and frustration?
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 156
Registered: Apr-08
Styvn, i get the sarcasm.

Not all of my customers hear all that well, nor claim to, but many start to very quickly a week or two after getting a better system. Suddenly, they notice that Bose cubes are bright and thin with one notey bass or their old speakers are dull and lifeless and muddy. I have some customers that use the hyperbole stuff and I just smile and nod. But the guys that have really gifted hearing, the ones that undestand they're talking in small differences or that you can't "audition" an amp or CD player in an unknowns system, those are the guys I really respect, send gear home with them to get their opinions, listen to their experiences acutely. When someone comes in and tells me their harsh, fatiguing speaker sounds that way because of their good, moderately expensive CD player, well, that isn't going to do much for me and we just try to ignore that and go straight for the actual problem, whether they want to or not. Oh, I'll offer up a high-end CD player to show that it's not the problem, but I'll also tell them where the real problem is. So, when people use hyperbole to describe small differences or insist that problems with their speakers, rooms or setup are coming from bit players in the system, I don't pay them much heed. They can have their opinions and beliefs all they want, but they're just off the rails and will remain that way until they accept a dose of reality.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 157
Registered: Apr-08
And any of you that want can prove I'm wrong with a DBT any time you like. I would just prefer to wager some money on the outcome, that's all, otherwise the result wouldn't be that interesting or unexpected for me.
 

Gold Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1248
Registered: Nov-04
I don't understand the point of arguing who is right and who is wrong. I always thought that hifi was about the music and the emotional connection that the system evokes in the individual. If you accept that to be the case, which I would assume that most if not all audio enthusiasts at one time or another would admit to, than this is a very personal thing. Why is there so much gear in the market right now? Why are there so many successful and noteworthy designs on the market? You have the traditional box, planars, horn loaded speakers, SS and tube electronics, LP, CD, SACD. I am sure we can make a never ending list of manufacturers that have made great gear at some point. With all that gear and unique designs there are bound to be numerous ways to match these pieces to a person's particular desires.

Now I used to sell A/V gear and BB in the Magnolia section. I know, not hifi at all, maybe midfi. I have always tried to sell the ML or Vienna Acoustics gear whenever I had the chance, but not all people care for or want to hear anything. If a person liked the Bose system, so be it. If a person did not hear a difference between the $300/pr speakers and the $500/pr speakers so be it. You guys have so much extra energy to waste on these useless arguments. This is a forum. We are here to have discussions and dialogue about things we are interested in, not have a 4 year-old's argument.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 158
Registered: Apr-08
Christopher, that's the point, the problem occurs when the insults and personal attacks begin. People do enough insulting of other people's gear as is, and I can deal with that, but the personal insults instead of discussion are the real problem. Rather than take on any of my arguments directly, most people just ignore what I say and attack me personally.

As I said, my main mission it to get people out of low-fi and step up the ladder just a couple of notches, so all this talk about how one good products 'blows away' another product is rather silly. It's hard to argue 'well it's all personal preference' when people talk about 'blowing away' instead of 'I prefer'.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 706
Registered: Dec-06
Yea, Christopher. He's really here to help and share and get people out of low-fi.

As long as everyone agrees with him and buys NAD. lol.

And nobody uses "action" words.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 295
Registered: Mar-04
"And one of them - "Jan, tell me what this graph means" - doesn't mean a thing".

How do you know, you didn't even know what the graph represented? Or as you so eloquently put it "How in the "F" should I know"?
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 159
Registered: Apr-08
I don't care whether people here by NAD or not, but this whole 'I quit NAD like i quit smoking' attitude is kinda ridiculous and egocentric.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 296
Registered: Mar-04
John, (as you well know) some folks are more susceptible to marketing tactics by audio companies than others. With an expensive piece of equipment their words, which may have meant little before, now carry much more weight to some.
 

Gold Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1249
Registered: Nov-04
Bose rings a bell.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 160
Registered: Apr-08
A lot of the techniques used by Bose are also used very successfully by high-end companies. A lot of the price in many brands is there primarily to increase the perceived performance. As Cadillac found out long ago, the product has to be more expensive to be perceived as better. People naturally assume that a $200/hour person is better than someone who charges $100/hour, even if it's not the case. A nicer case = better sound for many. More expensive to build = better for many. Notice how high end companies talk about the *expense* of building things, rather than the final quality. Or how they box themselves into a design corner and then claim superiority by getting back out of the box.
 

Gold Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1250
Registered: Nov-04
What would be your examples of designers/designs putting themselves in corners and such that you describe?
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 275
Registered: Jul-07
"Rather than take on any of my arguments directly, most people just ignore what I say and attack me personally. "

What argument are you making John ? That's the problem. What are you saying ? There aren't big differences in electronics ? Ok, but some people think there are....or at least significant to them. If you can't deal with that, that's too bad. But there isn't much left to discuss really.

The body of documentation of comparisons and differences in electronics is staggering. Go tell ALL those people they are full of it. Once you convince a few thousand reviewers, professionals, etc that they are wrong, come back and let us know how you made out. At least admit that the only people who think there are differences aren't just on this board. We're not the only ones who think that way.

Go spread the word John. Start with all of the major publications with a Letter to the Editor or something. If that's your only "argument" then you've made it here. Try elsewhere.
 

Silver Member
Username: Nout

Post Number: 119
Registered: Mar-06
I don't care whether people here by NAD or not, but this whole 'I quit NAD like i quit smoking' attitude is kinda ridiculous and egocentric.

John, I somewhat share your sentiment.
I haven't upgraded, apart from a pair of speakers, in years and I most probably will live the rest of my life with the set I have now. Will get the amp and cd player fixed when they're starting to disfunction.

But Audio isn't a hobby for me, it is just an interest.
Every now and then I visit this forum, read and learn, accept or reject some odd ideas about tweaks for instance.
(I am definitely not a 'cable guy' and never heard improvements in treating discs with sprays etc.)

I think I agree with you on the part that speakers and room accoustics make the most difference, though I am not certain about it.
If the oppurtunity was there to do a blind test I certainly would be interested, I think my hearing is pretty good and it would be much fun to test some equipment.
Just as fun like the tests I did in ripping cd's in various compressing methods and various bitrates.
(I didn't hear significant improvements in bitrates higher than 160 kb/ps)
I like to read about Audio and do the ocassional tests myself.

Ocassionally that is, coming to think about it, only once or twice a year, mostly after visiting audio forums like Ecoustics.

Now for me audio is merely an interest, but for most posters in this thread audio is a lot more than that.
They're enjoying this hobby (maybe even a way of life) on a daily basis, it's part of their daily routine.

So John, what you're doing right now is basically telling them their hobby is worth jack sh*t.
Like you said: "you can get PRaT for cheap".
You can get it easily, without much effort.

These guys have invested a lot time, money and love in their system/hobby and you are basically telling them they're full of sh*t: PRaT doesn't exist and your systems are overpriced and not any better than the NAD's I sell.

Wouldn't you be annoyed the least?
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 161
Registered: Apr-08
B&W does this to rationalize kevlar. By stating up front that they want to achieve wide dispersion with a single large midrange, they are "forced" to use kevlar and FST. Or Vandersteen, by saying that only time/phase coherent will do, then they can go to great lengths talking about how they overcome the handicaps associated with first order crossovers, rather than simply using whatever design sounds best. Basically starting off with a self-imposed limitation, be it a size, a material, a design concept, then "overcoming" the limitations as though everyone else still suffers from it. This kind of thing is pretty common.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 162
Registered: Apr-08
Nout, I agree with you, it's a good observation. Of course, I happened on the NAD thread and, of course, had the same kind of reaction, people basically acting as though NAD is mediocre stuff compared to other things and therefore that what I do is basically full of sh*t. So, I started off with basically "are you sure? Can you prove it?" Not that they're necessarily wrong, but can they *prove* it. Maybe they can hear what I can't. These "huge" differences. But I hear a lot of flaws with 'audiophile' speakers that audiophiles can't seem to hear, so I feel as though the likelihood of someone proving that there are these huge differences are pretty small. And one of the reasons many people avoid the hobby is that people act as though their stuff is crap.
 

Gold Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1251
Registered: Nov-04
Then where do you draw the line between setting a design goal and what you describe such as ML and planar design?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12573
Registered: May-04
.

"People do enough insulting of other people's gear as is, and I can deal with that, but the personal insults instead of discussion are the real problem. "



Like "gullible"? In your estimation of a "gullible system", is the equipment "gullible" or was the buyer "gullible"? Must have been the equipment 'cause fishy wouldn't make no personal attacks. No, sir, no way!


Yikes! It's like watching a mosquito on the fly - one direction then the other - up then down then backwards. Anything but a straight forward path.


And that's not a personal attack, fishy, just an observation meant for those "gullible" system owners.


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12574
Registered: May-04
.

"As I said, my main mission it to get people out of low-fi and step up the ladder just a couple of notches, so all this talk about how one good products 'blows away' another product is rather silly. It's hard to argue 'well it's all personal preference' when people talk about 'blowing away' instead of 'I prefer'."


It's called priorities, fishy. But you wouldn't know them from PRaT's. It's all the same to you - speakers and room, speakers and room, speakers and room, etc, etc, etc.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12575
Registered: May-04
.

"As I said, my main mission it to get people out of low-fi and step up the ladder just a couple of notches, so all this talk about how one good products 'blows away' another product is rather silly. It's hard to argue 'well it's all personal preference' when people talk about 'blowing away' instead of 'I prefer'."


It's called priorities, fishy. But you wouldn't know them from PRaT's. It's all the same to you - speakers and room, speakers and room, speakers and room, etc, etc, etc.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 163
Registered: Apr-08
Christopher, it's tough sometimes because ribbons and ESLs are bonafide, interesting technologies. Or, another example is talking about overcoming porting. Well, one *good* way is to use acoustic suspension. But that's too 'difficult', apparently.
 

Gold Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1252
Registered: Nov-04
Maybe the ribbon/ESL was a bad example. I am just curious how you would determine a design is trying too hard to cover up short comings and a design that is making compromises for the best results.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12576
Registered: May-04
.

"Of course, I happened on the NAD thread and, of course, had the same kind of reaction, people basically acting as though NAD is mediocre stuff compared to other things and therefore that what I do is basically full of sh*t."


Apparently a lot of people think so.



"Maybe they can hear what I can't."


Apparently a lot of people can.



Can't you take a hint, fishy? George's approval's are at 28%. He thinks he's doing a great job!


.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 164
Registered: Apr-08
Jan, I think the guy with the 'gullible system' attacked me first.

My system, if I were to dare say it, has WAY more "PRaT" than most people will experience in their lives and uses extraordinary technology to achieve it. It's hooked up to a Sonos as both source and preamp. Could I arguably make the sound better with a C-J preamp and expensive CD player? Sure. But it kicks buttocks and takes prisoners. This with a source/preamp that probably would be ravaged by most 'audiophiles'. Doesn't matter, it rocks.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 165
Registered: Apr-08
Christopher, it's hard to explain, I guess, but what I'm saying is that the when a company "creates" a unique problem, then solves it with its special fix, and sells the fix as a demonstration of their superiority, that is what I'm talking about. B&W sells Kevlar rather than simply using a high-excursion 5" driver or dual mids or other ways of solving the same problem. Most engineers would and do simply take a different path to solve it. One of the best creative solutions to oil can resonances is to simply use a .75" aluminum tweeter instead of using exotic materials such as Be or VD carbon.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12577
Registered: May-04
.

"But I hear a lot of flaws with 'audiophile' speakers that audiophiles can't seem to hear, so I feel as though the likelihood of someone proving that there are these huge differences are pretty small."


So you're better at this that all the audiophile speaker designers in the world?!


Aww, c'mon, fishy, get some pride in what you do!




"And one of the reasons many people avoid the hobby is that people act as though their stuff is crap."



You mean like telling someone their system is "gullible"? No, wait, "crap", you tell them their system is "crap" and they were gullible enough to spend too much. Is that what you mean? Is that how you keep customers away? 'Cause it's sure workin' here.



Oh, and the stuff above, they can't hear it because you can't hear anything! They know what's real, fishy, and you obviously don't. You can't hear PRaT in the music so don't tell me you can hear what's wrong with an audiophile speaker. You look at a graph and decide what you're going to hear. If you could hear, this discussion would have been over the day you showed up on this forum.



.
 

Gold Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1253
Registered: Nov-04
I see your point now. Point well taken at least on my end. I take it that you mean "take the simplest route to the same goal."
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 166
Registered: Apr-08
Hah, I suspected you were a wacky liberal 30 posts ago, Jan. You think and argue emotionally and illogically, like expensive solutions to simple problems and viciously attack anyone with whom you disagree. As opposed to being genuinely liberal, I mean.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 167
Registered: Apr-08
Christopher, yeah, I kinda believe in Achem's razor, but applied more broadly.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 168
Registered: Apr-08
Jan, I'm not 'better' than these other guys, but some of these guys are 'marketer/designers', not actual engineers. Engineers think and design differently.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1153
Registered: Apr-06
I didn't realize Occam let someone borrow his razor...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12578
Registered: May-04
.

"Christopher, it's hard to explain, I guess, but what I'm saying is that the when a company "creates" a unique problem, then solves it with its special fix, and sells the fix as a demonstration of their superiority, that is what I'm talking about. B&W sells Kevlar rather than simply using a high-excursion 5" driver or dual mids or other ways of solving the same problem. Most engineers would and do simply take a different path to solve it. One of the best creative solutions to oil can resonances is to simply use a .75" aluminum tweeter instead of using exotic materials such as Be or VD carbon."



Total BS

Oil can resonance doesn't affect larger 5" drivers. Dual drivers present problems - and solutions - single drivers don't Oil can resonances are not the same as cone break up or high frequency ringing. Changing the diameter of the dome also affects the disparities in disperion between mid frequency driver and tweter, which changes the "in room" perception and even those measurements taken off axis.


fishy, you cannot pull one solution out of your butt and start wiping it all over creation. It's your finger that stinks when you do that.




You don't like companies creating problems only to solve them with their own technology? How about "soft clipping" from NAD. All their "peak power" BS is marketing creating by a problem they didn't want to solve correctly - build a good power supply.



.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1154
Registered: Apr-06
Ohh and uhh....the recording is by far going to have more impact upon what you hear than the room or the speaker.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 297
Registered: Mar-04
Jan seems to have entered his manic phase today. It's ok Jan; later on tonight we can watch Matlock reruns.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12579
Registered: May-04
.

I see you assume a lot. I just posted, "George's approval's are at 28%. He thinks he's doing a great job!" If 72% of the people don't approve of his performance, there's got to be some conservative republicans in there too.


Stop assuming so you know so much, fishy, you know what they say about people who assume; "You're an @ss."

.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12580
Registered: May-04
.


fishy, don't you have a customer to go tell some lies to?
 

Gold Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1254
Registered: Nov-04
I agree with Stephen here. Bose knows this very well and actually requires that its own demo disc be used since the recording is optimized for their own systems. Great recordings sound great on mediocre systems.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1155
Registered: Apr-06
I'm also curious how one can pick out the speaker (or anything else for that matter) from the rest of the system as being more "important" than everything else, given that everything is pretty intertwined. Since I know John is an NHT man, I'll take the Xd system as an example: which is more important the physical speakers or the amplifier? Or better yet, the electronics package behind it all?
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 169
Registered: Apr-08
Stephen, I think Occam or Achem (lots of spelling on him for some reason) intended that people use it as much as possible.

As far as recordings, very true, many CDs won't ever sound 'real' because they're either very bad or very fake. But some sound amazing.

The electronics in Xd are part of the speaker. They do all of the crossover and impulse response correction, giving it the *true* ability transmit the "PRaT" in the music.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 170
Registered: Apr-08
Jan,

first I was talking about the oil can resonance of tweeters, not midrange, though midranges have plenty of resonance of their own.

Secondly, I think you're too emotional and illogical to be a Republican, let alone a true independent, so I figure my assumptions are dead on. Besides, posting about GB's negatives was senseless and unrelated except for that it explains more of who you are to me.

Third, NAD's soft clipping made sense in an age where tweeters handled power badly and blew often.

Fourth, older speakers used to be high impedance, low efficiency, so their use of high peak power made sense, basically putting in the extra output transistors for the high output and a low price, but now that most speakers are mid to high efficiency, lower impedance, they've changed the amp designs to reflect that.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 171
Registered: Apr-08
Speaking of going to concerts, I'm going to go in a little bit to see one of the worst recorded, but most talented bands out there - Rush. Too bad they don't sound on a CD as good as they do live. I swear their stuff is mixed on Klipsch speakers or car stereos.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1157
Registered: Apr-06
"The electronics in Xd are part of the speaker."

That is ultimately my point. I'm not a source first or a speaker first person. I simply want the best results, and I firmly believe the best way to do that is *not* to divorce the separate components from one another, be it the pre-amp, amplifier, or speaker.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 172
Registered: Apr-08
Unfortunately, by making them interchangeable, they are divorced. The electronics and speakers in Xd are entirely intertwined, as, perhaps, they should be in the end. That's why it works so well.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1158
Registered: Apr-06
"Unfortunately, by making them interchangeable, they are divorced. The electronics and speakers in Xd are entirely intertwined, as, perhaps, they should be in the end. That's why it works so well."

I agree. However, I also believe that because they are divorced in such a manner, it makes the decision of what components to put together not one that should be taken lightly. Heck, even specs can't really tell you whether Speaker A can be adequately driven by Amplifer B. A phase angle and impedance plot might give you an idea of how robust a power supply you might want, but there is no worthwhile amplifier spec that I know of that tells you that it can drive a particular load.

Given that argument, I can't in the end say that the decision to buy a set of speakers is more important than the decision to buy a particular amplifer.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 276
Registered: Jul-07
"...you're too emotional and illogical..."

Goodness, it's Mr. Spock. Are you, or have you ever been, a Vulcan John ?

I don't know if the Rush concert is a good idea John, it may further impair your hearing.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 173
Registered: Apr-08
I have not been a Vulcan, but I do buy things as logically as possible.

I'm willing to take the risk on the Rush concert. It's outdoor, so it's not as loud as the typical concert and sounds much better.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12582
Registered: May-04
.

"Third, NAD's soft clipping made sense in an age where tweeters handled power badly and blew often.'


Soft clipping never made sense. It's compression by another name, that's all it is. It takes NAD's worst quality and makes it worse. And ferrofluid damping for tweeters were well under way by the time NAD hit the streets. To suggest NAD did this solely to protect tweeters they didn't make or sell is absurd.


"Fourth, older speakers used to be high impedance, low efficiency, so their use of high peak power made sense, basically putting in the extra output transistors for the high output and a low price, but now that most speakers are mid to high efficiency, lower impedance, they've changed the amp designs to reflect that."


I have no idea where you get your ideas. Most vintage speakers were not high impedance. Look at the measurements on an AR3a or 10pi. Audio magazine began publishing the impedance curve and electrical phase angle fo speakers under review back in the mid '70's (before NAD showed up) because they had become so ridiculous. NAD came around as speaker designers were dropping impedances down to 1.5 Ohms. Their power supplies couldn't deal with these speakers and they hoped to sell by way of "peak power" specs that meant nothing.


High "peak power" is a lie. Flat out. It's no different than a 6,000 watt boom box. Only a few years prior to NAD's arrival the FTC had passed a regulation outlawing non-RMS power specifications. Consumers got tired of buying those 20 watt amplifiers that stated their "peak power" and couldn't driver real world speakers. NAD took them to court for the right to lie. So, chalk up another "not right" on fishy's score card. How many is that now?


fishy, is that another one of the lies you feed your customers?

.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10138
Registered: Dec-04
Geddy Lee hates your foulstinkingguts worse than I do.
Permanent waves on masterdisc is a masterpiece.

And Terry Brown just egged your car.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 298
Registered: Mar-04
Nuck (Sancho) things still tense on the home front I see? Start drinking now and don't stop until you hit the floor. Upon waking up repeat the process. Poor Jan, or should I say Don Quixote, keep tilting at windmills. Your ranting has reached the point of diminishing returns hasn't it? You have to grow up Jan, you do not own ecoustics, allow others play in the sandbox without exposing them to your lunacy.
 

Gold Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1255
Registered: Nov-04
id, please stop. They are atleast now talking about audio and not each other. I think you should do the same or refrain from the personal stabbing.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 299
Registered: Mar-04
You know Christopher you seem reasonable. This forum should be a dialogue. I attempted to appeal to the better angels of Jan's nature. I stated that I felt he was above the ranting he was doing. I felt the forum would benefit if there was dialogue between him and John. Not Jan and his followers trying to drive out those who differ with Jan. How does that benefit the forum? It may benefit Jan's ego but is that what is important here? It would be nice to learn something new here; I already know Jan is a hammerhead.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 174
Registered: Dec-07
"This forum should be a dialogue."-- id.

LOL. Nobody light a match for at least an hour. Whew.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 300
Registered: Mar-04
Thanks Neil, that is the kind of input I was talking about.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 174
Registered: Apr-08
Jan,

Soft clipping is defeatable.

As far as NAD suing the FTC, please cite something saying this is true. NAD has always been an advocate for more strict measurement standards, certainly as long as I've known the brand and has always built product that easily meets or exceeds their power rating when measured RMS. Unless you can prove otherwise, of course.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12586
Registered: May-04
.

"Soft clipping is defeatable."


Not as a marketing tool or a sales device it is not!



Go look the rest up for yourself, fishy. Believe me, I don't have time to lie to the likes of you and I've already provided you with enough of a free education. So go ahead, tell everyone I don't know what I'm talking about. I can see the post already.


ROTFLMAO!!! at fishy!




.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10147
Registered: Dec-04
Power Drive.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 176
Registered: Apr-08
You're assuming I agree with the use of TM'd names for basic engineering concepts. I don't use any of them when I speak with customers unless they ask what it is. Putting a silly name on something doesn't make it bad.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12589
Registered: May-04
.

Putting a silly name on it doesn't make it an "engineering concept".
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 279
Registered: Jul-07
Don't forget "Power Envelope", one of my personal favorites.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 302
Registered: Mar-04
"So go ahead, tell everyone I don't know what I'm talking about. I can see the post already".

You are getting old Jan, dementia is setting in.

okay, Jan, how does an amp with "PRaT" make sense of the time/phase behavior of this $15K speaker"?

"How in the "F" should I know"?

A blowhard and his band of merry fools.
Jan, go soak you teeth.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 303
Registered: Mar-04
"So go ahead, tell everyone I don't know what I'm talking about. I can see the post already".

You are getting old Jan, dementia is setting in.

okay, Jan, how does an amp with "PRaT" make sense of the time/phase behavior of this $15K speaker"?

"How in the "F" should I know"?

A blowhard and his band of merry fools.
Jan, go soak your teeth.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 304
Registered: Mar-04
Ok, what I don't get is your desire to always get in the last word. You don't concede a point at all? Why?
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 712
Registered: Dec-06
I'm sure the audio savior of albuquerque is glad the unbridled pants pisser has hitched his horses onto the NAD crazy train.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 180
Registered: Apr-08
Jan, making up silly, irrelevant descriptions for amps and CDs such as "pace, rhythm and timing" doesn't make it a real descriptor or valid in any way either, except in your mind.

I'll put $1000 on your inability to pass a real DBT as well.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1936
Registered: Nov-05
id, you really must have the IQ of a flea. You follow every post by everyone who can see through JA's BS with some inane comment that could really be bettered by the intelligence of a pre-schooler. Give it up, you only make a bigger a*ss of yourself with each post.

You think JA is the grand master of audio knowledge because he sells NAD. Geez man, my old Nad dealer knew diddley squat - he just pretended to just like your pal JA. I for one aren't anti NAD. I think they represent good value for money, but you really have to open your tiny little mind and accept that there is much better gear out there. For pete's sake man no one here thinks JV knows everything about audio, but I have never known anyone to have his knowledge. I have had my run-ins with JV in the past, but I accept the fact that Jan is a decent person who has put in a lot of time to help people here.

And in return, JV has to contend with the likes of small minded twits like you, Wiley and a few other trolls who add nothing to this forum.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1270
Registered: May-06
JA - But I hear a lot of flaws with 'audiophile' speakers that audiophiles can't seem to hear,

MW - Yeah like my Gallo's. Which leads me to think you are clueless as to how to set up a speaker or wouldn't know cohesiveness and synergy if it ran your @ss over.

JA - And one of the reasons many people avoid the hobby is that people act as though their stuff is crap.

MW - So far the "people" would just be you.

JA - Jan, I think the guy with the 'gullible system' attacked me first.

MW -- No, you begin forcing BS down the throats of good folks here and attacking them before you even heard from me. You set yourself up and have not swayed from that.

JA - My system, if I were to dare say it, has WAY more "PRaT" than most people will experience in their lives and uses extraordinary technology to achieve it.

MW -- If I were to tell you that a system cannot have PRaT and it just happens to be fact, will you call yourself a dumb sh!t or does one of us have to do it for you?

I already know you cannot get this one so I will help you. It is music that has PRaT. The system can let it pass through or destroy it, nothing else. Too bad you cannot learn from JV cause then you wouldn't put yourself in this position of having to call yourself a dumb sh!t.




Now unbridled id who lives in suburban Chicago, perhaps the Elgin Mental Health Center is where you either get your mail or escaped from. You are one sick son-of-a-b!tch much less about the dumbest b@stard ever to show up on this forum.

I have never encountered such cowardice which manifests itself in your false bravado hiding behind your username. Smugly just cutting away at folks as if you are some almighty.

All I know is you wouldn't last too long where I come from which gets me back to North side?


Go ahead now son, it's ok, go change your pants.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 182
Registered: Apr-08
MR, us 'small minded twits' seem to enjoy music way more than you 'enlightened' folks.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 184
Registered: Apr-08
Michael, I'd put my system against yours any day and wage money on which system performs better to people who know nothing about either. I've heard your speakers properly set up by Gallo themselves. They don't suck, but none of the ancillaries you have will allow them to keep up with a really great system. They're an example of people buying product via internet 'meme' and then feeling superior about it. You need to get out more.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 305
Registered: Mar-04
id, you really must have the IQ of a flea. You follow every post by everyone who can see through JA's BS with some inane comment

MR, why are you spewing such venom? Now if John Ashman is so full of Shite why can't Jan, the brain trust of this forum answer his questions? The rest of you only echo Jan's "requests" that he leave? That is the best opposition you others can offer, pathetic. Jan just becomes more manic and hammer headed and you invertebrates follow him. Now MR just take it easy and get some rest today, get back to me when you are more reasonable.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 306
Registered: Mar-04
Now to Michael "man about town" Wodek.
Where do I start with you? What is this coming out of your mouth? The name calling and I told you before your Frasier Crane muse was not serving you well and here you go reviving it. I just wanted to tell you that something you have done has inspired me and has garnered some positive results. You balance your equipment on racquetballs to gain higher fidelity. So I took it one step further and I now balance myself on racquetballs while I listen to my stereo.
Mikey, the PRAT is to die for, thanks pops you're the tops!
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1271
Registered: May-06
John, you will not hear my kit no more than I will hear yours so knock off the nonsense. If you are a professional, I would not be surprised if you had a kit which sounded phenomenal. What do you know about my wires? Nothing, you can't buy them anywhere. What do you know about my ICs? Nothing, you cannot buy them anywhere. What do you know about my room treatments, isolation, dampening, etc? Nothing, you have never been to my home. I have had hundreds of hours to dial my kit in with my Gallos, yet you say my ancillaries will not allow the Gallos to keep up. Do you think I am the only one who likes Gallos? Do you think everybody buys audio gear because they read a review or listened to you? Internet 'meme'? How about a dealer who listened to me then guided me to what I told him I wanted in a system. Gallos weren't the only option he offered, but he let me listen and decide. Same guy who sold me the Rogue and a few other ancillaries. That's what happens when you gain a customer's trust. The Customer goes to that dealer first then when not finding a fit, goes on from there. But the next time, and every time after that I will go back to my dealer first.

You haven't a clue about me, what I hear, how I listen, or whether I am as dumb as your buddy. But none of that matters to you does it?

Going back to that wager, not going to happen. I do not know what your system sounds like since I still do not have a clue as to what you listen to or hear. My kit is very specifically tuned to what I want to hear. Spot on if you will. I cannot afford to make it better as it could cost me well into five figures to do so. My system works for me so I do not need to know if it outperforms yours or not. I do not care if anybody else likes it, this is not a popularity contest. This is me enjoying a hobby, taking the time and effort and expense to make it as enjoyable as I can to me, just me, nobody else. The fact that others enjoy it immensely is sweet, but never the objective.

I will note that your civility has stepped up a notch.




Lastly as a public service announcement, this post was written in a manner to allow "newbies" to understand some of the dynamics of making your system yours as well as a reply to an above post.

 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 185
Registered: Apr-08
That's fine, so what's the significance of the insults? As you may recall, I never insulted you or your system until you insulted me for no reason.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1937
Registered: Nov-05
Now MR just take it easy and get some rest today, get back to me when you are more reasonable.

I'm back to you ID, rested and more reasonable.

You useless idiot.

Sorry Mike - I know you did good with this thread. It's a shame the fools had to pervade it with their infantile dribble.

I can't imagine anyone having a relationship with these lunatics. Enjoy the music mate. I know we sure do here. (Of course that's because there is still a NAD in my rack!)
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 307
Registered: Mar-04
"I will note that your civility has stepped up a notch".

Perhaps you can follow suit Mikey. Put away the Texas tough guy persona, it doesn't present you in a positive or realistic light. Remember your not getting any younger.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 308
Registered: Mar-04
I'm back to you ID, rested and more reasonable.
You useless idiot.

MR, why oh why must you be this way? Perhaps you did not see I was presenting you with an olive branch of sorts. I don't think you have rested enough MR.
How about a sedative and a bottle of beer?
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 177
Registered: Dec-07
Tune in tomorrow for another episode of Fishey and the Twerp, starring Fishey:

http://www.mtv.com/photos/?fid=1511706&pid=1802741

And the Twerp:

http://www.mtv.com/photos/?fid=1511706&pid=1802756

Until then...good night.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1274
Registered: May-06
id - "Put away the Texas tough guy persona, it doesn't present you in a positive or realistic light."



ROTFLMAO

You?

A sense of reality?


ROTFLMAO




Does Texas scare you son?

That is your opinion of a "tough guy persona"?

Good grief, get a life.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 309
Registered: Mar-04
id, you f*cking idiot!
You useless idiot.
an idiot on the loose?
You are one sick son-of-a-b!tch
The Elgin Mental Health Center is where you either get your mail or escaped from.
Cowardice which manifests itself in your false bravado.

Fortunately for ecoustics, I have thick skin and shall continue to stand tall. I also understand some folks show their affection in different ways than others. Like a ship in a storm, battered but still afloat. Someday soon you shall all thank me for my perseverance. Until then I shall continue the productive dialogue
with my ecoustics friends.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 310
Registered: Mar-04
Does Texas scare you son?

That is your opinion of a "tough guy persona"?

Good grief, get a life".

Just a figure of speech, you were somewhat aggressive with the "my side of town" nonsense. Thought you were chasing your youth, you know aging man trying to show up the younger guy. Mikey what is wrong with you tonight? I paid you a compliment hoping that would take the edge off. I am getting worried and that is sincere. One more thing what is with the absurdly large ROTFLMAO?
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1275
Registered: May-06
OK, that was funny.

There is another thread for...

Oh never mind, why have you pollute that one too.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 713
Registered: Dec-06
MR, us 'small minded twits' seem to enjoy music way more than you 'enlightened' folks.

I'll bet he thinks there's some sort of graph or test to prove that he is enjoying something more than others.
Good lord, he's fullofshit.
I ain't buying it and he shouldn't be selling it.

Oh, and unbridled pants pisser...what are you babbling on about?
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 281
Registered: Jul-07
"...I now balance myself on racquetballs while I listen to my stereo..."

Yeah. And fell off of them a few times. You may want to give that up.

And John, what is this "my system is better than your system" stuff. Now THAT sounds like the same type of audiophile superiority that you admonished others for earlier. John, you're not setting a good example. You're contradicting yourself again John.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 714
Registered: Dec-06
The Human Contradiction
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 187
Registered: Apr-08
Chris, I didn't start with the whole "my system is better than your system stuff", that's the whole thing that got me going here in the first place. That whole "NAD owners aren't hearing music and don't know it" attitude. The fact that my system *is* better is no big deal, one can go out and easily buy it, it doesn't make me better, but when people act like I can't hear, therefore, don't know what good sound is our how to put it together, well, they should hear my system and then say that. And my system costs less than many of the folks here who say that spending so much money on the electronics are so critical. Well, I didn't do that, yet I have an objectively, measurably better system that also, IMO, sounds better subjectively because of that objective superiority. It's not bragging, it's a proof of concept and how we approach things. We don't do top heavy systems
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 283
Registered: Jul-07
"but when people act like I can't hear, therefore, don't know what good sound is our how to put it together, well, they should hear my system and then say that. "

Hmmm. But if you haven't heard their system wouldn't the same apply ? Shouldn't you hear their system too ? I'm just trying to follow you John.

"And my system costs less than many of the folks here who say that spending so much money on the electronics are so critical."

Who here is saying that ? Who is saying you need to spend more money to get better sound ? Who here says that if you can't spend big bucks forget about getting great sound ? I have great sound (to me) and I didn't spend more than $800 on a single component. Others here have DIY components, used products, etc. Where did you get this ?

"I have an objectively, measurably better system that also, IMO, sounds better subjectively because of that objective superiority."

So you can tell that your system sounds better than mine without hearing it ? Better than MW's ? Better than MR's ? Wow, that must be quite a talent !
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 311
Registered: Mar-04
Strvyn, you really have a lot to offer.
Pants pisser, that is very witty, you are one of the brighter of Jan's invertebrate followers. One dullard after another coming out of the woodwork. Must be lonely up there is Wisconsin, milk a cow you are good with the hand action right? Say something useful, I dare you.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 189
Registered: Apr-08
Chris, I've heard many, if not most of the speakers that people have in their systems. It takes massive technology to get the performance my system has. It can be outdone, but not with tube amps and garden hose cable.

I could be wrong about the 'more expensive = better' thing, it's just that seemed to be the implication. Maybe it's more of a "fancier brand name = better" thing.

Chris, you should hear Xd. Then you'd understand. It's a giant technical leap ahead. Or any DEQX'd system with the proper parts. DEQX + 3 good drivers + a well designed cabinet simply leapfrogs conventional audio technology and, while not cheap, makes a whole lot more sense than spending $thousands on electronics.

You see, I've been at this awhile. I know how bad speakers are and what a limitation they are. I've peaked over the fence and the grass is definitely greener. I have a saying that, technically, there's no such thing as a 'good' sounding speaker, only less bad sounding ones. That's why, to me spending money on expensive electronics makes so little sense.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 717
Registered: Dec-06
you're an idiot and john ashman has no real clue what he's talking about. a dolt with blinders spreading misinformation about hi fi.

How's that?

By the way, what are you babbling on about unbridled pants pisser?
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 718
Registered: Dec-06
I could be wrong about the 'more expensive = better' thing

He's getting closer. If he'll just admit he's wrong he'll feel better and sleep better at night.

I'll bet he'll produce a graph that shows God uses his NAD gear before that happens though.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 191
Registered: Apr-08
Stryvn, why don't you get out of the mass market speakers first, then you can talk about 'hi fi' a little better.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 720
Registered: Dec-06
Someone tell the idiot I'm building my own.

And I have no plans to mass market them.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 314
Registered: Mar-04
By the way, what are you babbling on about unbridled pants pisser?

Sterno, you have more in your arsenal that that right, you have said that several times. Dazzle the board with your far reaching knowledge about things audio. You seem fixated with pants pissing, you wet your bed until you were 23 didn't you. Its ok we all have our crosses to bear. Now you have come to ecoustics to make witless statements that you refuse to back up. You're doing just fine Sterno, fitting right in.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1159
Registered: Apr-06
"I have an objectively, measurably better system"

John, you do realize that there are different opinions of what is objectively and measurably better, don't you?

In addition to that minor quandary, we run into the problem that all systems are compromised in some sense or another, and depending on what I look for in a system, yours just might not have "it".

I recall at AVS you were upset about a Stereophile review of the Xd system saying they had sold out because they stated it did not have the sense of scale or some such as a high end B&W speaker. Of course the quibble was an obvious limitation of a system the size of the Xd. However, if it is something the reviewer (or anyone else for that matter) is listening for, the rest of its measurements simply don't matter.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 315
Registered: Mar-04
"Someone tell the idiot I'm building my own".

Oh great, I can picture sterno with a hand full of glue scratching his head. Well at least you cannot blame anyone but yourself for your speakers Sterno, what a relief.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 721
Registered: Dec-06
John, you do realize that there are different opinions of what is objectively and measurably better, don't you?


He's aware.....his opinion and the wrong opinion.

unbridled pants pisser...legs getting warm? What in the world are you babbling on about?
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 192
Registered: Apr-08
Stephen,

I do realize that there are different ideas of what is good and bad in speaker performance, though I do think most would agree that smooth, rather than just perfectly flat, FR is good, as is smooth, rather than erratic dispersion, as is low distortion, low spectral decay, etc. I'm talking about just getting the big stuff right.

And, we all have different priorities. My issue with Stereophile in general is when they take a measurable flaw and turn it into a "quality" because the product is expensive and turn a measurable strength into a "shortcoming" when the product is inexpensive. And that they are much more demanding of an affordable product than of an expensive product. They rarely criticize an expensive product because they know it will kill sales. They will be much more critical of an inexpensive product because then people will either want to step up to more expensive stuff or will buy it anyway because of the price. Stereophile is a cheerleader for spending more money on audio, as much as possible. Period. That's their job. But that's a whole 'nother subject.

Kinda reminds me when someone asked me "if you had $10K, what would you buy?" And I said "If I had $10K in my pocket, I'd be at the Ducati dealership".
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 722
Registered: Dec-06
Great. He's got poor taste in motorcycles too.

I love how he's always reminded of something great he once said to someone though.

lol. He's turning into a Simpsons character. I'll bet he has a lot of mirrors in his apartment.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 284
Registered: Jul-07
"Chris, you should hear Xd. Then you'd understand. It's a giant technical leap ahead. Or any DEQX'd system with the proper parts. DEQX + 3 good drivers + a well designed cabinet simply leapfrogs conventional audio technology and, while not cheap, makes a whole lot more sense than spending $thousands on electronics. "

You seemed to have sidestepped my questions John, but that's ok. I can answer them myself anyway. I'll just insert the opposite of what you said earlier. That's been a good starting point so far.

I have not heard the Xd system, but have read a number of reviews. It appears to be a very good system by all accounts, but it is priced far out of my league. Again, in an irony to your earlier statements, I'm a little surprised to see you suggesting an expensive audiophile solution. Especially when you pitch it as an alternative to "spending thousands on electronics", when you acknowledge earlier in the same post that the solution is expensive. So it isn't an alternative to spending thousands on electronics, it is simply another way to spend thousands on electronics. You are switching perspecitves and sides of an argument so frequently now John every sentence contradicts the one before.

One last thing. I've heard people talking about the "next big thing" before John. It never is. Oh, and it's not new either. I have no doubt the implementation is sound, and makes music very well. However, in every article I've read the reviewer has offered comparisons in the same price range. So, I'm thinking for the same money there are still alternatives for people to consider, if you'll allow them that, and show them that courtesy.

And John, that's what this is really all about. Courtesy. Allow alternative points of view. LISTEN to alternative points of view. The alternative is that you KNOW IT ALL, and if you do (fyi you don't), there is nothing for you to learn here.

You've tired me out. I really don't know what you are saying, and have come to the conclusion you just want to argue. So, knock yourself out. No, really.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 194
Registered: Apr-08
Hah, are you saying that a Harley is a "good" motorcycle and a Ducati is a "bad" one? That actually would make sense on this forum. Harley's are expensive, slow (except the V-rod), have nearly dangerous handling, loud, unrefined, and are basically made for rich posers who want to be perceived as macho. And while Ducatis have their fair share of posers, they at least handle incredibly well, are plenty fast, aren't much more than 'mass market' bikes. My 15 year old, $3000 Honda will objectively slap around any Harley not carrying the Buell label. So saying I have 'poor taste' in motorcycles is like a Yugo owner saying someone with an R32 has poor taste in cars. You so funny!

The only mirrors are really use are the ones on the Hawk, often with Harley's in shrinking in the back ground.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1160
Registered: Apr-06
Without even stepping into the world of conflicting design philosophies (broad versus narrow vertical dispersion; controlled versus wide open horizontal dispersion; importance of time/phase alignment), the problem when you say your speakers are measurably better than another person's, is that it probably isn't measurably better in *everything*. Even your vaunted Xds have their flaws, inherent to their size. To put it another way, I suspect you would have a hard time convincing someone that owned a pair of Klipschorns of the superiority of the Xd based on raw listening. As you say though, people have their priorities.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 195
Registered: Apr-08
Stephen, you're right, although, I'd far prefer to listen to Xd loud than Klipschorns loud. I don't want the sound of the Rush concert, I want the sound of what's on the CD. Klipsch folk are generally used to that PA sound and that's what I'm seeking to avoid. Xd's flaws are few and far between.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 196
Registered: Apr-08
Chris, courtesy isn't a one-way street. Remember how this started? Someone basically said "wow, the NAD amp has attack" and Jan turned right around and told him that it didn't have attack, as did most others. Therefore, his subjective interpretation was wrong, Jan's and yours was right. I'm saying that stuff like that is so small in differential, when everything is matched volume, when you can switch them quickly and A/B, and especially when the product is not known, that it's not worth fighting over or trying to assert superiority. Notice I'm not saying that NAD is better, I'm saying that it's as good as most everything, if not everything, in the same class because it's well engineered, even if it doesn't appeal to you. So, Jan wasn't being terribly courteous, was he? Isn't "attack" just a synonym for "PRaT"? This gets right back to my point about cancellation of subjective opinion. Now, do a DBT and get 10 people to say that 'amp N' has not "PRaT" or "attack" compared to 'amp B' or 'amp R' or whatever 75% of the time, and you have something powerful and real. It's funny how DBTs both scare and are derided by subjectivists when they should be embracing it as a way to prove once and for all how acute their hearing is and how right they've been all this time.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1161
Registered: Apr-06
"I don't want the sound of the Rush concert, I want the sound of what's on the CD."

I find that somewhat ironic since you're going to a Rush concert, presumably to listen. Especially when combined with this statement: "Too bad they don't sound on a CD as good as they do live."
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 197
Registered: Apr-08
Yes, well, the first time I heard them, there was some mind alteration there. Tuesday, well, hell, I kept wishing for my R30 DVD, projector and surround system the whole way through, not to mention the ability to zap everyone down to size of a flea like Reducto. So, I guess it can and does get worse than the CD, unfortunately. The R30 disc is probably their best recorded disc and the 5.1 helps a lot. The problem wth the concert this time wasn't so much Rush as it was the speaker installation. I may approach them to see if they'll let me install DEQX there. The sound was too bright, had indistinct midrange and terrible, boomy bass.

I guess I should have said "too bad they don't sound as uncompressed on a CD as they do live". And that there are CDs that I own that only wished I could say I prefer to hear what is on the CD. Goes back to my suggest for NAD to build a CD player that recognizes each disc and allows you to "remaster" your CD collection and undo some of the compression and bad EQ jobs.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 285
Registered: Jul-07
I remember how it started John and exactly what was said. Get over it. You're as much to blame as anyone. You made quite an entrance, and took far too personally what was said because you own and sell NAD. If the discussion was around Rega you wouldn't have been anywhere to be found. You're here to save sales because you understand the power of the search engine. Don't BS us anymore with your motives.

There can't be any difference in electronics because people will go further than your store if there is. Enough already. Not that anyone can figure out what you really think because you never say the same thing twice in a row without first contradicting yourself. Sure sign of someone with a hidden agenda. Nobody here has an agenda John except you.

I have no idea why UB ID is here other than to wave your pom-poms.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1162
Registered: Apr-06
"I may approach them to see if they'll let me install DEQX there."

Somehow I don't imagine DEQX will help much of anything in a concert venue, at least any of the venues I've been to. However, it is scientifically proven that a few beers will do wonders for you.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1276
Registered: May-06
JA - "Isn't "attack" just a synonym for "PRaT"?"

That would be a no.

It's funny that you think DBTs scare people and do not have a clue that nobody cares what anybody else hears. Why do you keep thinking this is a contest?
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 198
Registered: Apr-08
Stephen, yes $9/beer did wonders for the air in my wallet. DEQX would be a huge bonus in any pro situation as it can create a flat, accurate response, clean up the mud and provide quite a bit more dynamic range in the system.

Michael, you seem to care what other people hears. Wasn't that your point of attacking me in the first place? Anger that I don't hear what you hear or agree with you?

Chris, if someone were trashing Rega and I happened to be in 'earshot', I'd have probably said something, I often do when people get carried away. People always have an agenda, Chris, sometimes it's as simple as ego preservation or self validation. I think you said something about having a civil, logical conversation, but you can't seem to handle that yet for some reason.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 316
Registered: Mar-04
unbridled pants pisser...legs getting warm?

Still projecting your incontinence on me huh, sad soul. So how are those Campbell's soup cans you call speakers coming along? A fool attempts to build a speaker and now he is imbued with great wisdom on all things audio, ok.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1164
Registered: Apr-06
"Stephen, yes $9/beer did wonders for the air in my wallet."

Thats why you bring a 6 pack with you and drink it in the parking lot

"DEQX would be a huge bonus in any pro situation as it can create a flat, accurate response, clean up the mud and provide quite a bit more dynamic range in the system."

The one thing those systems don't lack is dynamic range, generally speaking. As far as flat accurate response, and cleaning up mud, it depends on the venue. I just don't see it helping me out in the lawns of the Nissan Pavilion with ten thousand screaming fans, or in the typical sports arena ala fitted with CV speakers and fifty thousand more screaming fans.

In any event, I better get back to work before I get a hundred lashes.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 723
Registered: Dec-06
his qualifiers for quality in motorcycles is similar to his qualifiers in quality hi fi.

again and again proven wrong. By members here and by shear numbers. Yet he can't shut up.

it's sad. The human contradiction rolls on.

bye fishy.

wtf is the unbridled pants pisser babbling on about?
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 286
Registered: Jul-07
" I think you said something about having a civil, logical conversation, but you can't seem to handle that yet for some reason."

John, the amount of hypocrasy in that statement you couldn't fit in all of New Mexico. You've attacked people, equipment, and opinions with reckless abandon, you don't allow that it's even possible that you are wrong on ANYTHING, and everytime I try to ask you pointed questions you avoid them, or give answers in full contradiction to earlier statements. A logical discussion with you ? That's a knee slapper that is.

I've tried the logical discussion. Can't be had. And there have been many discussions about many pieces of gear here. Odd that the first time you show your face is when a piece that you sell is up for debate. Very odd. I think we've already read how you'd "defend" Rega or Linn. I don't think they'd want you in their corner frankly.

Prime BS John. Primo.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 318
Registered: Mar-04
wtf is the unbridled pants pisser babbling on about?

You said this before "john ashman has no real clue what he's talking about". Ok, your opinion and a courageous one at that. I challenged you to expand on that and you stick your fingers in your ears and say piss pants and babble? But what have you said that qualifies as "insightful". I wonder sterno, perhaps when you run your cycles you don't open the garage door.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 319
Registered: Mar-04
again and again proven wrong. By members here and by shear numbers.

On what points has anyone been proven wrong again and again? Come on Sterno show a scintilla of courage and don't stick those greasy fingers in your ears again. Where is your contribution in this rout, man obsessed with bodily functions? You may have a little Ed Gein in you, are you related in any way?
Sheer numbers mean little if it's a chorus of stupidity.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 200
Registered: Apr-08
Chris, you can have a logical discussion if *you* want to. But sneaking in two or three insults per paragraph doesn't help. I didn't say I'd defend Linn, that stuff really is overpriced, low built quality stuff. It makes NAD Classic series seem like YBA. Rega isn't bad stuff. I don't think it's *better* than NAD, though some people obviously do. It's a bit different.

As I said, people are too quick to point to any difference, real, perceived, or exaggerated as typically "better" if the product is more expensive or comes from a "better brand". Sometimes, it's just different, not better. But, then, that kind of logic is what marketing is made to dispense with.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 726
Registered: Dec-06
Chris...out of curiosity, what cart are you running on your tt?
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 288
Registered: Jul-07
Stryvn, right now nothing. My youngest boy bent the needle over on my Grado over 6 months ago. I've been spending money on other things so I haven't reloaded on the TT yet. It's next though, but it really needs a going over. Still has the original cables on it, and the arm hasn't been touched in a decade. I'm going to take it into Peak Audio and get it serviced and set back up again.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10160
Registered: Dec-04
So how long does a DBT last JA?
Just wondering...
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 202
Registered: Apr-08
Could be a few hours or over a few days. Depends on how long someone wants to attempt to divine the identities of the gear.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10161
Registered: Dec-04
Just name mine 7/7 in a few minutes, doc
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 205
Registered: Apr-08
Amazing.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1938
Registered: Nov-05
See JA, you do only hear half the music.


The words are Amazing Grace.


Oh, you meant Nuck is amazing? Yes, you are correct.

That's why he is

The Nuck!

JA, a while back (a few years) I never would have believed in the benefits of a lot of things I have learnt here: cables, interconnects, isolation/dampening methods, various ideas and experiences people have with different componentry and so on. You can have you DBT's up the wazoo, but I know what my ears tell me , my wife knows what her ears tell her and I'm sure many here can have faith in their own ears. You want to ram your opinions down everyone's throat, you come across as if you are the king of audio, yet you are just another nobody in a universe of nobodies. You think your opinions matter here and they could if you could only admit that what you say are opinions.

When a fact is a fact it simplifies things a lot. Most of the time in this music/audio hobby, we have nothing but opinions. Unless it has been proven outright, it is heresay, opinion, call it what you like.

You entered this forum as the arrogant sage of audio sprouting that anyone who spends more on amps etc than NAD are, well 'gullible' just because you are the big NAD dealer of New Mexico. Frankly if I hadn't heard of you on this forum and I went into your shop and was confronted by you, I would be out in a few seconds flat.

You got people's back up here JA, because of your arrogant and ramrod manner. It's a shame you couldn't have joined this forum as mostly everyone else has- with eyes and mind open, and a sociabe manner.

We've all read about DBT's and how they continuously fail - because everyone is different, hears differently and have different tastes.

Shame really - imagine how cheap our music would be if we all agreed with your rhetoric JA. One NAD amp, One NAD T/T, one NAD CDP, your mind blowing speakers (whatever they were, I can't be bothered looking back for the name).

Wouldn't be much of a business to be running then would it JA?

As for id, well I had my fun with him, he once had things to say here, now he is just a troll to be completely ignored. And that's what I'll be doing. I think we all should ignore him. Either that or we all conduct an exorcism.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 208
Registered: Apr-08
MR

The ironic thing about all this stuff is that people refuse to believe that products can get good enough to surpass the person's ability to hear it. Not everything is, for sure, but for me, it's a great thing when a $500 CD player sounds as good as a $5000. That means i can spend more money on speakers or music or motorcycles or whatever. The issue, i guess is that many self-described audiophiles desperately *need* to be able hear everything as their ego is wrapped up in it. They can fail a DBT miserably, then proclaim that the test is flawed, not their hearing. I could flunk a DBT and it wouldn't hurt my ego, it would be more of a testament to how good some things in audio have gotten. Audiophiles are so 'adept' they will hear the difference of no change at all, as Dunlavy always pointed out. Just make them think something changed for the better, and they will give you a big rundown on how much better the system was and what the changes were. Funny how that is. It just shows what imaginative creatures we are. You can deny reality all you want, but when you claim that something is better than something because you "heard it", then you're the one pushing your opinion on everyone else in an arrogant, unfounded, 'ramrod' manner. This board appears to be only "sociable" if you're willing to blindly accept what the forum bullies say.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1939
Registered: Nov-05
You're a real turkey JA. You not only can't hear - you can't even read. There is no point in even trying to get you to see the point. You can't get it - you'll never get it - you are so wrapped up in yourself it's beyond belief.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 211
Registered: Apr-08
Take away the mirror and then tell me what you see. If you came into the store, you'd like what we do and you'd probably like me. Most everyone does as I'm pretty easy going.

The real point here is that if the only thing that is important is personal subjectivity, why even tell other people that the amp you chose is "blows away" another amp? They can certainly hear that for themselves, so there's no need. If someone gets on here and says "wow, NAD's have attack!", why would half a dozen people discount and try to overpower his subjective opinion, if that's all that counts. People say that it's personal opinion is all that counts, then immediately become hypocrites by telling them what they think, as though that would have any relevance at all. And if the product is obviously, repeatably better in a certain way, then it would be easy to pass a DBT and then it wouldn't be just opinion any more. People are careless in what they say, like one of those socially inept people at a party and then get upset if someone disagrees just as strongly. Tone down your arrogance and others will tone down theirs. That's how it works, not trying to browbeat anyone who's arrogance matches your own.

PS, I will still bet money that you can't hear as well as you think you do. You can say I can't hear, but I can, I'm just not so arrogant about it. Some of the best ears regularly fail DBTs, only because there's not as big a difference in gear as is imagined. That's a fact. I consider it a good fact, but other's despise the idea because they can't stand the idea that they're not better equipped than other normal people.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 292
Registered: Jul-07
"People say that it's personal opinion is all that counts, then immediately become hypocrites by telling them what they think, as though that would have any relevance at all."

"I will still bet money that you can't hear as well as you think you do."

Hah! Still can't speak in anything but contradictions. Not even in the same post. Pathetic John. You probably don't even see the contradiction. Go get a point for heavens sake. And you already have offers for your money, you just won't take them up on it, because the DBT is an internet BS smokescreen. Once you don't have that to hide behind, you pretty much have nothing. Take the folks up on the bet John, or stop making it with other people. "I'll bet anyone $1000 on a DBT as long as I don't have to put up the $1000". BS and more BS.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 324
Registered: Mar-04
"because the DBT is an internet BS smokescreen".

Can you back that up Chris?
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 225
Registered: Apr-08
Chris, I'll be glad to take someone's money, all we need to do is get a setting in which we can do it seriously and professionally, not "my wife switched and I guessed all my sources as far as I know" kind of thing. I'm talking level matched, truly blind. Not easy to do, so I'd have to see the money in an escrow account or find a trustworthy arbitrator, but sure, it would be a great way of making some extra income as long as the costs don't outweigh the payoff.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 296
Registered: Jul-07
""because the DBT is an internet BS smokescreen".

Can you back that up Chris?"


Do you understand the statement ID ? Didn't think so. John's the one that needs to put up or shut up. It's his cover up not mine. I know what I hear. John is the one contending people don't hear what they hear. He's the one that truly needs the validation, since, you know, only you agree with him and all.

That's one of the many points neither of you have ever addressed. The body of documentation of people hearing differences in electronics would fill a library. Engineers, physicists, professionals, musicians....all writing about equipment they prefer over others, or differences they note in descrete components, etc. You think a few posts on a forum somehow sweeps that into the corner ?

The burden of proof ? I think you boys are the ones that have the work to do.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 325
Registered: Mar-04
Yes I understand what you said.

""because the DBT is an internet BS smokescreen".

Again, can YOU back up YOUR assertion; if you can that is great, feel free to do so.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 297
Registered: Jul-07
ID, yes. He's had offers to take him up on this proposition, and he's failed to do so. Therefore, BS. Do some internet searches, you'll find DBT's where panels consistently hear significant differences in electronics. And, there is consistency amoung panelists who don't know what they are listening to. You should both start by addressing why there is such a large body of evidence to the contrary or your beliefs. If you can't convince professionals in this business they are full of BS, you're unlikely to convince little ol' me.

And if all you have still is your conspiracy theory, then that won't convince me. I'm ok with you believing it. Just don't shove it down everyone else's throats.
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 205
Registered: Oct-07
Do some internet searches, you'll find DBT's where panels consistently hear significant differences in electronics.

Chris, Please post a link or 2.

I believe in 'the scientific method' but you won't get much traction around here.
Setting up a PROPER DBT is near impossible. You would almost need an identical listening room for EACH listener to make up for seating position ....deficiencies(?) Coorelating listener evaluations against seating position would be a daunting task, even with modern software.
DOE (design of experiment) is Critical to the success of any such endeavor. Even if you limited yourself to 1 variable, the number of trials would skyrocket.

Conceptually, DBTing is great. As a practical matter, near impossible.

Unless I see ALL the data, and the experimental design, I will take any DBT with a grain of salt.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 228
Registered: Apr-08
Leo, I don't think it's impossible. Science is kind of like "as best we can determine" sometimes. Besides, it's best to do one person at a time anyway, so they don't influence each other. My raising of a DBT is not so much so that people can prove that one product is better or even different, but to show just how close products really are under identical conditions. There is too much use of exaggerated "action" verbs these days, whether it is from journalists or reviewers or people who just bought a new piece of gear on the basis that it *must* be better than their old piece. Taking a DBT really puts the golden-eared arrogance in check. Even if you hear a difference, how will you be sure which without knowing the brand or cost?

I've set up switched, sighted A/Bs with speaker cable once and thought I heard a difference, but couldn't say that one was better than the other. Just that they had slightly different tones. I've been burned on first impressions too many times, even on speakers, where I think something is good on audition, then A/B with something and start hearing all the flaws I didn't notice, so I've become far more critical and cautious (and just better) when listening. If you say that one electronic product "blows away" another electronic product, "not even close", then either a), you're exaggerating, b) self-deceived, or c) one of the products is pretty well ineptly designed.
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 206
Registered: Oct-07
Sorry, John,
Science is not quite "as best we can determine". You can start with a 'working hypothesis', say.....amps sound different.....and control everything else.

Statistics doesn't work like that. You can assign probabilities and also determine that chance played NO PART in a given result. That 'proves' a difference. and your working hypothesis.

NOTE:: I did NOT refer to better/worse.


Also, to say you auditioned something and heard a difference is OK. Better / worse?? Only you can decide what you do or don't value in a system.

Back to numbers for a sec. If there are 10 speaker pairs available and 10 receivers.....there are 100 possible pairings. Throw in cables, CD players and maybe a TT or 5 and there you go....numbers beyond management.

The real fringe keeps cables off the floor and crosses them at right angles.
Try controlling for THAT in a true, DBT test.

Sorry, I was in the test it school and still am at work. However, that being said, I find the vague possibility of actually 'proving' something other than differences off-putting and not worth the effort.

You need to understand scientific method better and realize the huge task at hand.
If you can find someone to do blind gear changes FOR you while you sit and sip an IcedTea, so much the better. Report back, but have all your data, including multiple trials..........
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 229
Registered: Apr-08
Leo, I do understand the scientific method. You're getting into semantics. There is no "perfect science", that's why science is constantly seeking the truth, honing in on the truth but never absolutely, 100% sure it has the truth. If you have a methodology that has consistent, repeatable results, then you've got something.

That being said, even a relatively unscientific DBT is enough to put things into perspective for most people. I was reading one guy's report on one and it was enough to completely alter his buying habits, his approach and hist perceptions and he found that focusing on the things that obviously made a difference, rather than the pimple's on a gnat's bum, got him a lot closer to where he wanted to be.

Of course, if you really want to be a skeptic, read an advertising or marketing textbook and you can see how much data there is on how one can influence perception and buying habits. I chose not to be controlled.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 298
Registered: Jul-07
Hey Leo, for example.....

http://www.stereomojo.com/SHOOTOUT2007INTEGRATEDS.htm

Lots of others out there.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 326
Registered: Mar-04
We at Stereomojo understand that there are flaws inherent in a single blind type test. I know I said in another thread about playing gotcha but I just had to note this single blind. Doesn't necessary affect anything you said before.

just as there are in any type of evaluation.
Single-blind trials are especially risky in psychology and social science research, where the experimenter has an expectation of what the outcome should be, and may consciously or subconsciously influence the behavior of the subject.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 230
Registered: Apr-08
When people were trying to single blind me, I could tell by the inflection of the voice or facial expressions which one was a and which was b. The fun part of that is that I'd always pick the 'bad' product as the 'best' and it would drive them NUTS.

Also, we're talking about switching amps that are, in many ways, more flawed, possibly obviously so. Analog AB amps have been around for, what, 40 years? There's nothing new under the sun in design and they've been refined to virtual perfection.

I think it's pretty bad if you've got more than one person in the room as they cue off of each other. if one person starts tapping their toes or gets a smile, it instantly impacts the other person.
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 207
Registered: Oct-07
Not semantics.....numbers.

An 'unscientific' DBT is just that. Smoke/mirrors and nonsense. Opinion.

Experimental design is an exact statistical science. Nobodys 'feelings' get in the way. Figures don't lie, liars figure!

Reasoning from a single persons epiphany to generalize to all stereophiles is NOT scientific. It is 'anecdotal' and not to be generalized to all cases.

As for advertising, that is almost all BS and not to be considered as truth. Of course, truth in advertising comes into play, but thats what we have politicians for.

I have worked as an engineering technician for OVER 25 yrs and have some expertise in experimental design. That results are 'probabalistic' is true. However, that being said, when the probability is very high....say 90%, you bet on the validity of the result. In my line, and it is a purely statistical number, you need 20 data points to make a chart. Give me enough data and I'll tell you if it has statistical significance.

HOMEWORK FOR YOU
1. Design an experiment.
2. Secure a venue.
3. Secure equipment
4. Get volunteer listeners.
5. Gather data
6. Crunch numbers.
7. Get peer review.
8. Publish.
9. Get famous.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 231
Registered: Apr-08
What about

10. Get rich

Then it's worth my time. Other than that, I think everyone should simply take part in even a "bad" SBT or DBT just for experience and an attitude adjustment.

I mean, I think we agree, so I don't want to argue over semantics. Besides, the more different DBTs you do, the more likely it is you round out errors. It would be fun, but I'd have to be already wealthy and nearly retired to want to put that much energy into getting the result that I already believe to be true.

Kinda reminds me how the government spends millions to screw up the entire food industry over decades and then comes out with another multi-$million study that says "all things in moderation" which is what smart people have been saying for years.
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 209
Registered: Oct-07
No money in this. You would be reviled for all time.....no matter what result. Not to mention the fact that Everyone with a vested interest in said results would come out of the woodwork and question 1.methodology 2.results 3.your sanity 4.motives

Bad tests are worse than no tests, if your goal is science.

Part of the scientific method you claim to understand is the concept of 'repeatable' results'. If by your methodology you got 2 different results, you'd average them for accuracy? Bad science and misleading. I am testing compasses...they all point a different direction. Which way is North?

As for informal, non-data gathering 'tests', the more the merrier. Just don't attach too much import to them. You must also be careful of conclusions from such testing.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 232
Registered: Apr-08
Well, what I'm saying is that a not totally scientific amp or CD test is a whole lot better than most sighted "I want this to sound good" observations. So those are the ones I trust even less.

Speakers are more difficult because the room can impact the result, it's hard to set two pairs up well and it's hard to match spl on speakers that are a somewhat random group of spl themselves.

And like i said, I'm not bringing this up to support any specific hypothesis other than people exaggerate like crazy. Once they have to concentrate a bit to get what they think is the right answer, it makes them think a little more.

One of my competitors does this - he puts on a less expensive amp and lets you hear a song. Then he puts on the expensive amp and starts saying things like "listen to the difference in the cymbals". Probably half the people then focus on the cymbals and, having focused on them for the first time, "hear them better" and spend a lot of money. Probably 25% don't know if they heard them better, but just go along with the program and nod. Another 25% come over and tell me they heard no difference and just wanted to get out of there.

It's kind of like my dad's marine buddy who walked up to every cute girl he saw on the street and asked them to sleep with him. He said it only worked 10% of the time, got slapped 20% of the time, but it was worth it to ask the 10 women. You don't have to fake out everyone, but if you can try it on enough people, you're going to get successes that way.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 299
Registered: Jul-07
John, I have no idea what you are saying, but I'm pretty sure you haven't answered my question....which is.....how come so many people on this planet hear differences in electronics and you don't ? In any circumstance....casual listening, formal audio reviews, SBT's, CBT's.....people hear differences....for which you claim do not exist in significance. So, is the world crazy John ? Is the entire body of evidence that doesn't support your theory a conspiracy John ?

Funny how direct questions get ignored when the obvious answers don't support your claims.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 300
Registered: Jul-07
On second thought, never mind. Art is right. You're best left to your own "bliss". Facts will never change your biased opinions, so why bother. Have fun John. And for goodness sake, don't let any new information in that contradicts your conclusions. You wouldn't want to threaten your little version of the world.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 233
Registered: Apr-08
Chris, when did I say I heard no difference? All I'm saying is that one good amp doesn't "blow away" another amp because the differences are small compared to speakers, room, setup. I've never heard a CD player so bad that it ruined my musical enjoyment, but other people will *look* at a CD player and tell me that they couldn't possibly audition a speaker properly with it. I say "just imagine them sounding even better with your gear". Never mind the massive room acoustics difference.

Is the world crazy? No, but easily influenced by marketing, that is clear. Anecdotal evidence isn't really scientific evidence. Besides, as I said, if you say something is better and someone else says the opposite, well, the 'evidence' is nullified, isn't it? I think you don't understand what I believe at all. Like your interpretation of audio, you take a small difference and turn it into a big one.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1941
Registered: Nov-05
When people were trying to single blind me, I could tell by the inflection of the voice or facial expressions which one was a and which was b. The fun part of that is that I'd always pick the 'bad' product as the 'best' and it would drive them NUTS.

Good grief Ashman you're a w......

Put it this way, if you keep doing what you're doing you'll go blind.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 327
Registered: Mar-04
M.R that is one of the potential drawbacks to SBT. "However, there is a risk that subjects are influenced by interaction with the researchers -- known as the experimenter's bias". MR, Leo did a great job of discussing something like a grown up. I know you can bring more to the discussion than your Aussie hammerhead persona.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 234
Registered: Apr-08
Insult first, ask questions later.

It was like this when i'd join Democrat forums (as a libertarian) and try to discuss things rationally with them, point out when they would state something factually wrong, cite sources, point out how Democrats were doing the same bad things they accused of Republicans, etc, etc, and it was just nothing but vitriol and attacks in order to drive anyone who disagreed away. Forums used to be about the exchange of information and perspective, now it seems to be about the domination of information and perspective.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 6834
Registered: Feb-05
John....do you listen to music...perhaps you'd like to post what you are listening to on the Music thread...certainly the lighter side of the forum.

One caveat...we only say positive things about each others tunes...if what we have to say is negative we say nothing at all...enjoy!
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 235
Registered: Apr-08
You mean there's an insult free zone here? I had no idea!

I shall take your advice.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1942
Registered: Nov-05
It's not all about what you relate JA - as much as most here disagree. It's more about how much you think of yourself that glows blindingly evident from every post you type. It makes me want to gag.

But enough fun.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 6836
Registered: Feb-05
BTW John that's the "Music Selections for the speaker guys" thread here under "speakers"....avoid the actual music area as it is a war zone.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 237
Registered: Apr-08
MR, gag away, no one is stopping you. But personally attacking me won't change my opinion, it just reinforces it and makes me feel superior to you. I didn't think that when I started, but jeez, some of you guys act like spoiled little brats getting a spanking for the first time. Thank goodness for reasonable adults like Art.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 1943
Registered: Nov-05
No JA - it's just that self opinionated people like you don't wash with people like me. I've learnt a lot from the 'reasonable adults' here - the one's who can agree to disagree and back up their facts where necessary. You certainly aren't one of these folk. I've had my fill, but you keep posting away with all your BS - you'll pick up a follower or two who'll eat it up.

Cheers mate.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 6838
Registered: Feb-05
As those who know me know I disagree with most of what John has posted relative to audio. However he has a right to his opinion and to defend it vigorously as long as that stops shy of insults...I think he mostly has. For me it's time to talk about what we're in this audio thing for which is music. However I'm sure these argument threads will continue and that's alright too.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 238
Registered: Apr-08
MR, your intolerance would be astounding if it weren't so common. I don't want followers and certainly don't need your animosity so go torture a kangaroo or whatever it is you do when not on line.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 301
Registered: Jul-07
Thank you Art. The gentleman as always.

John, intolerance is not allowing for different views than your own. Stating your opinions as absolutes, and asking everyone to prove everything they hear is in my books intolerance. Some folks here, including myself, have felt the need to defend what their experiences have been in music and listening. That was certainly a mistake on my part. I shouldn't feel the need to defend myself to you, or anyone.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 240
Registered: Apr-08
Now you're starting to get it. If you don't let opposing opinions get to you, you won't be reflexive and angry. Then you can discuss why the opinions are different. You don't need to try to drive people off or make personal attacks.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 302
Registered: Jul-07
No ones trying to drive you off John. And for heavens sake, stop rewriting history. You've attacked as much as you've been attacked. You're always trying to ignore your own actions.

And I don't care about opposing opinions. Thats fine. I can deal with that and have here long before you showed up. What's different (and you keep ignoring this) is that you insult the opinions of others. Whether it's calling them gullible, silly, or any other term, it's insulting.

Stop rewriting history John, and own up to your own actions. It's not your opinions that are driving others actions, it's your attitude towards the opinions of others.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 242
Registered: Apr-08
now who's rewriting history?
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 328
Registered: Mar-04
"Pot calling the kettle black"
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 1486
Registered: Jun-07
"I know you can bring more to the discussion than your Aussie hammerhead persona"


"so go torture a kangaroo or whatever it is you do when not on line"


What is with the insults against the Australian? If only more Countries could be more like Australia, that would be grand. Their culture, people, and way of life is amazing.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 303
Registered: Jul-07
I can quote the remarks John. Would you like me to ? Not a good use of my time, but they are there for the cutting and pasting. In no particular order...

"My 'plan' was simply adding a different voice to what i saw was a chorus of silliness. "

No particularly respectful.

""musical" - yet another euphemism for colored or marketing term to suggest "better" sounding. "

Can't even use the word "musical" anymore.

"I'm going to guess though, having not heard a B60, that it's wimpy little transformer and power output makes it seem "faster" to people and some people think that equates with better sound."

"Rega is a bit eccentric, but Naim is downright daffy. Linn? Goodness, talk about cheap, low grade electronics sprinkled with pixie dust. Awful, dramatically overpriced stuff"

"Most people around here have really low resolution mass market type speakers or ones that are so bright, they need a surround preamp with speaker/room correction or room treatment more than they need an audiophile amp."

Not nice.

"Jan, I legitimately think you are insane, something on the order of Ron Paul, possibly worse. You think you understand the world, it's just not in a way anyone else can understand or relate to, it's a world populated by one giant ego, no space left for reason or discussion, so I'll let you go on with your meaningless, senseless diatribes."

That reads like an attack John.

"I hear the exact same thing, we just don't make up stupid, senseless names for it. "

Sounds kind of judgemental.

"he'll just have to deal with the fact that I think he's largely full of crap and people should take his advice with extreme caution."

Not really respecting the opinions of others. Sounds like an emotional response.

Anyway, history is there for the reading John. I don't need to do anything to it. Like I said, you dished out as much abuse as you took, so stop assuming the "oh why do people attack me" stance constantly. It's pretty obvious why.

Anyway, I'm done with this.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 245
Registered: Apr-08
Promise? Bendito y alabado sea el Señor
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 246
Registered: Apr-08
BTW, FWIW, I was going to say "squirrel", but didn't know if they had squirrels down there.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 329
Registered: Mar-04
John is easy on your guys. Look at how you hooligans handle me. How do you expect a fine upstanding citizen such as myself to get any sleep at night?

id, you really must have the IQ of a flea.
id, you f*cking idiot!
Tune in tomorrow for another episode of Fishey and the Twerp.
You useless idiot.
What is id babbling about?
You are one sick son-of-a-b!tch
The Elgin Mental Health Center is where you either get your mail or escaped from.
Cowardice which manifests itself in your false bravado.
small minded twits like you
an idiot on the loose?
about the dumbest b@stard ever to show up on this forum.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 247
Registered: Apr-08
Well, you know, while name calling is obviously easy, the best insults are subtle, yet come with the force of truth behind them.........
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10179
Registered: Dec-04
And those are all too true, ID. Every last one.
You see, subltety is an art form to be used on those who can appreciate it.

Not blunt moron trolls, who have worn out welcome on other forums.

I enjoy you looking like a fool on old forums JA.

Same thing here, just add a new audience for your shop and voila, a new crowd to misinform with your words, rather than inform with a tight lip and a Classe setup.

Buh bye.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_ashman

Albuquerque, NM United States

Post Number: 248
Registered: Apr-08
Proof positive ^ that you can take the child out of the playground, but you can't take the playground out of the child.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 330
Registered: Mar-04
"And those are all too true, ID. Every last one.
You see, subtlety is an art form to be used on those who can appreciate it".

Wow Nuck, you don't say. I guess I have much to learn about the human condition. Yet, for some reason I don't find you qualified in the least to impart anything I would find useful, go figure.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jblsince1989

Post Number: 86
Registered: Mar-08
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Bronze Member
Username: Jblsince1989

Post Number: 87
Registered: Mar-08
Could it be that Jan is secret Odeon Wet Fish fan of Odeon cinemas????
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