Ethical dilemma?
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New member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 4 Registered: Nov-07 | Hello all, So came home with the new stereo setup last night (see https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/409215.html for details). It is a new Denon DRA-397, 2 used PSB Image B25 speakers, and a used Klipsch KSW 200 sub. I bought from a local store (Natural Sound, Framingham, Massachusetts) where the salesman spent about 2 and a half hours with me. I clearly was shopping the very low end of what they normally sell there, but Peter Zagwyn, the salesman who helped me, was absolutely outstanding in every respect. Here's the dilemma: I found the same receiver as factory refurbished with a 1 year warranty from an authorized Denon dealer for a lot less than what I just paid. The dealer I bought from also has a demo pair of B&W 602 S3 for sale. If I returned the PSB speakers and receiver to him, bought the B&W demo speakers from him instead, and bought the refurbished Denon receiver I'd pay a total of $70.93 more than what I just spent. a) Is the sound difference worth the price (I'm a bit budget conscious)? b) Is this unethical/unfair to my dealer after the service he's given me? Peter's sale to me is then about $140 less than it was (on about a $1000 sale originally). What would you do? Thanks! Jeff |
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New member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 5 Registered: Nov-07 | P.S. The B&Ws are in their lovely faux cherry finish vs. the less desirable (for me) black PSB monitors. This doesn't really play into the equation, but could sway my wife...  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5714 Registered: Feb-05 | "Is this unethical/unfair to my dealer after the service he's given me? Peter's sale to me is then about $140 less than it was (on about a $1000 sale originally)." Yes, the extra that you paid is for that level of service which if he is good at what he does will continue after the sale. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1603 Registered: Oct-04 | I'm not so sure. If the store/salesman provides you with a specific return/refund period as part of their policy, you are not obligated to keep a product you wish to return because they treated you nice, IMHO. Treating a customer nice is obligatory, IMHO. As long as there is no lying on your part in order to facilitate the return/refund, I think you're within your rights. The worst outcome would be for you to regret a new purchase virtually from the get-go. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5715 Registered: Feb-05 | Read again Christopher relative to the Denon. The same dealer is selling the only product which he wishes to change...the speakers. He can get the Denon cheaper elsewhere and is talking about whether he should reward good service by paying higher where he demo'd it and where he has already purchased it...the answer is yes! |
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New member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 6 Registered: Nov-07 | And there's the dilemma. There is a 7 day, 100% satisfaction, no questions return period. They also offer price matching within 30 days, but the competing item is factory refurbished. The receiver is still sealed as new in its packaging. Peter was very nice and knowledgeable. That's precisely why I can't stand being within 100 yards of places like Best Buy (they have seen me for the last time; I can't stand that place). There's no such thing as customer service there. On the other hand, I'd still be buying $880 worth of equipment from him (not a lot in a store like that, but a lot to me), so it's not like I'm walking out on him. And I'll likely end up with a stereo system I'll enjoy more. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1604 Registered: Oct-04 | Art, if Jeff wants return the Denon, he should return the Denon if he can; I don't see the ethical dilemma? Especially if it is "a lot less" for the refurb; if it was a trivial amount, I could see your point, but not if it is "a lot" to Jeff, and it's not like he isn't doing any business with the original salesman. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 125 Registered: Jul-07 | Go with your gut, and sleep well at night. It already seems like you would like to reward Peter for the great service. So reward him, and at some point I wouldn't be surprised if that $140 found its way back to you. Maybe next time you purchase something he'll sharpen his pencil more for a good repeat customer. Don't second guess your instincts. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5716 Registered: Feb-05 | And Christopher that is why we are losing good service and local dealers. Every dollar counts to the little guy. How much money are you saving Jeff and is it worth it. Let's face it, it can't be a lot less for the other Denon....it isn't a lot of money to begin with. As you probably know I don't care (in other words I have no investment in the outcome) what you do anyway...I'm just thinking of the guy who provided you the outstanding service and whether or not that service has any value. One way to show that it has value is by paying a few extra bucks for a product you can get (probably online) for less. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5717 Registered: Feb-05 | BTW guys I didn't mean any of that in a hostile way...keep that in mind while crafting your response. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1605 Registered: Oct-04 | I'm sure Jeff can decide for himself what "a few extra bucks" is exactly, and whether it's worth it to him to subsidize this store in exchange for the service he received. I'm all for outstanding customer service (it's something of a rare thing in these troubled times), and very often am willing to pay through the nose for it, but everyone has to decide for themselves when & where it's appropriate. |
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Bronze Member Username: Scorpio1Post Number: 20 Registered: Nov-07 | I agree with Art, great service comes at a certain price. I have purchased items only to find them later at cheaper pricing, but with better service. Win-win for me to return item and save money while rewarding saleperson for great service. Would you prefer new vs. refurbished? IMO keep new and enjoy..... |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2571 Registered: Sep-04 | I'm feeling quite conflicted about this actually. On the one hand since the dealer offers a 100% returns policy, there is no ethical question to answer. The dealer accepts that you can return items for any reason and so hopes that his service is enough to keep the customer even if it's possibly at a premium. On the other hand, Jeff is not comparing like with like. He's comparing a brand new out of the box product against a refurbished product. If he'd been up-front with the dealer that he would look for 2nd hand deals, then possibly he'd have a good case, but I wonder about this to be honest. Perhaps it might be better to go back to the dealer who has to honour his policy anyway and see what the dealer can do - perhaps a refund or a meeting halfway? The last thing his dealer wants is for him to return product. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 7 Registered: Nov-07 | Ok, time for me to chime back in with more details. I hadn't thought of this until just now, but I never auditioned the receiver at the store. Just the PSB speakers and subwoofer. We auditioned the speakers through a Rotel amp and some exotic cd player that was already set up (did you know you can spend > $80k on a cd player?!). I bought everything I auditioned from the local store and don't plan to change that. The receiver was recommended by Peter based on its features, previous knowledge of the product, and budget. Based on the trust I'd developed with him, I purchased it without listening to it. My wife and I set a budget of $500 for the stereo. After shopping around we recognized that we can't get what we want for that much. We spent just over $1000 in the end. My wife (a.k.a. "the shopper") found the refurbished receiver unit this morning (yes, online). It is half the price: $179 vs $360 that we paid for the new unit. The tradeoff is the shorter warranty and local availability of service, but we never listened to it in the store. There is a 3 year, 100% trade up policy. This covers the tradeup of the speakers to the B&W if we chose. So I'd be returning a product that I didn't listen to in the store, that the store didn't spend any time selling me, and upgrading the things they did demo for me. I am starting to think that this changes things (at least ethically) in favor of exchanging the receiver and upgrading the speakers. My wife also laid it out like this: exchange the amp and trade up the speakers, or she'll exchange the amp, and I can keep the speakers I have. So, ethics or not, I think I'm in a pickle there... |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1606 Registered: Oct-04 | You set a budget of $500 & you spent more than $1000? You're not a GC are you? " My wife also laid it out like this: exchange the amp and trade up the speakers, or she'll exchange the amp, and I can keep the speakers I have. So, ethics or not, I think I'm in a pickle there..." Sounds like you don't have much choice in the matter, that would bother me just a little. |
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New member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 8 Registered: Nov-07 | GC? what is that? the budget was a naive target. it's what we though we could do. we'd discussed up to $1000, anticipating that it might cost that much to get what we wanted. The difference was a camera lens that we had talked about getting and now will wait a year for. She made that comment with a smile. It's not bad, really. Anyhow, I'd say that local business wins in this situation any way you slice it, since she was going to buy the whole thing online from Best Buy, which I feel amounts to criminal behavior. The local store is getting the speaker and speaker cable sale, which is the bulk of the purchase. |
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Bronze Member Username: Josh784Seattle, WA Post Number: 93 Registered: Mar-07 | Jeff, how much did you spend on cable? I know a lot of people here believe there are differences to be heard between various quality cables, but I for one do not. Did you hear a difference, or did you think you did because the dealer wants to sell a product he makes a huge premium on? http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm If spending more $$ on boutique cables makes you feel more secure, or if you honestly think you can hear a difference, then by all means, go for it. Try to make up your own mind, however, and don't spend a big part of your budget on cables just because other people say you should. The reason I ask, is that perhaps you could return the boutique cable (if that's what you purchased) and upgrade to the B&W speakers. I'd also mention the deal you found online to the dealer, and tell him that while you appreciate his service, and would like to support him as best you can, the extent of the savings is hard to pass up. Maybe he can work out some deal, such as reducing the trade-in price should you choose to upgrade in the future. Good luck, Josh |
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New member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 9 Registered: Nov-07 | Josh, I spent $40 on a 50' piece of bulk 12 gauge Monster cable that I'll cut to appropriate lengths and strip myself. No terminals. Just planning to use the screw attachments. Does this seem reasonable? I haven't checked lamp wire prices at HD recently. This stuff was $0.80/foot. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 916 Registered: May-06 | Hmm, this is getting interesting. To keep it short; 1. Your wife is too late to the dance. The two of you agreed upon something and you acted first. If she had gone online and the two of you had pre-determined used is good, then fine, you might have found the Denon, probably not, but something anyway, without a dealer recommendation and bought it because it was cheap. Let's say a Yamaha. Now you would have a receiver which you know nothing about and have a good chance of not enjoying your sound once you mated it to a source and speakers. You trusted the dealer on the Denon, that has value! 2. The refurbished model is $179 versus the $360 for a reason. Did you think to ask the dealer for used or demo? 3. What is your fall back plan for this amp if it fails after the shorter warranty? What would your fallback plan be if you kept the new Denon? My input to you is call the dealer. Let him know that you had not considered used or demo equipment and of your interest in the B&Ws. Ask him if you could bring everything back to the store and hook it all up for an audition, change out the speakers from the PSBs to the B&Ws to see if you even like the different sound. Ask him if he can substitute a demo or used amp for your audition. Then if you really like the B&Ws over the PSBs you can trade in the speakers and the amp and get the B&Ws and if your dealer has a good situation for you with a demo or used amp, then get that too. If he does not have a demo or used amp you could downgrade to, then get the amp online for $179. At least you gave the dealer an honest chance to earn your business and kept your relationship positive with him. My 2 cents anyway |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1608 Registered: Oct-04 | GC=General Contractor |
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New member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 10 Registered: Nov-07 | Chris: no. I'm a GS (graduate student) = limited income = have to shop around. This is a learning process. You don't know what you didn't know until you know something. I started this thread because I believe it important to treat fairly the people who give me their time and professional expertise. Otherwise I'd have returned the PSB speakers which I bought used for $299 and bought them new from saturdayaudio online for exactly the same price. Michael: I like your constructive suggestion and think that it is a fair solution. I'll see if I can get back to Boston to try out the B&W speakers. |
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Bronze Member Username: Josh784Seattle, WA Post Number: 94 Registered: Mar-07 | Jeff, that should work just fine. I avoid buying Monster stuff on principle, but their standard copper wire is going to be no different than most other standard copper wire. Nothing wrong with using bare wire instead of connectors, either. What are you doing for interconnects? Check out bluejeanscable.com - they have some really well constructed cables and interconnects at very reasonable prices. Interconnects being the cables, typically RCA, that connect your CD player to your amplifier. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 917 Registered: May-06 | Good luck Jeff. Please let us know what you end up with. It is always enjoyable to us when someone takes us with on their path. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1609 Registered: Oct-04 | Jeff, please be sure to check back when all is said & done to let let us all know how this turned out, and most importantly, how you like your new set-up. |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 14 Registered: Nov-07 | Hi all, well, it's done! My wife and I discussed our budget and decided to keep the Denon receiver and sub from the dealer, and trading the PSBs for the store demo B&W 602 S3 speakers. We are both feeling really good about the decision to buy everything locally from someone with a face and a name whom we can turn to in the future. Ethical dark cloud: lifted! I'll follow up about the system itself on the original thread here: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/409215.html thanks to all for your input. Jeff |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5753 Registered: Feb-05 | Good job Jeff. Hope you are enjoying your new system. |
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Bronze Member Username: Josh784Seattle, WA Post Number: 100 Registered: Mar-07 | Sounds great Jeff. As we've learned recently, even Musical Fidelity stuff can go up in smoke, so the support and security of having a good dealer to rely on should be well worth it down the road. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 952 Registered: May-06 | Jeff, If you are still about, unplug the Denon from the surge protector and try it directly into the wall outlet. See how that sounds. If you like it keep in mind that you have homeowner's insurance. |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 28 Registered: Nov-07 | i'm here. I've tried various ways of doing this. it seemed that the only think causing the buzz was the sub being grounded - either directly throuhg the wall or surge protector. since the denon isn't only has a 2 pin plug, i didn't think it really mattered how i ran it. what's your expectation in suggesting this? thanks, jeff |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 958 Registered: May-06 | No Jeff. Try it with music you are very familiar with and report back. Then I will tell you what I expected. I do not want to color for you what may or may not happen. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2613 Registered: Sep-04 | Jeff, I agree with Mike, give it a whirl. Also, I am not surprised that grounding the sub could cause the hum to go away. One of the problems with modern hifi is that a lot of it is designed with a floating earth. If the earths of the various connected items are sufficiently different, and this doesn't need to be much, a potential difference causes a current between the devices and you have an earth loop causing a hum. The best way to avoid this is to plug everything into a properly earthed multiway socket block. Of course, this does depend ont he power requirements of the system...! But try the amp into the wall. |
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