HT Build Help ... Totem Arro's
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New member Username: DrjPost Number: 1 Registered: Nov-06 | Greetings everyone! I have a bit of an HT dilemma and thought I'd come to this forum for help and advice. I have an old pair of Dahlquist, DQ10's, which need rebuilding and a new Anthem Statement A5, amp, requiring a pre-amp. However, my living room is not large, 11'x17'x8', with a 50" Panny plasma, on an end wall. To finish my old system as I had planned, it's big dollars. Also, the speakers are the size of the windows in the back of my house and the Anthem Statement A5 is quite powerful (180w rms x5), all too much, perhaps, for such a small room that's already filled with furniture. So, I've been leaning towards a somewhat more modest, 5.1, home theater setup, for my living room. I've seen the Totem Arro's and am attracted to the appearance and am impressed with the reviews. These would suit my living room, at least aesthetically, almost perfectly (given my furniture is a mix of golden oak, pine and cherry). The problem is, I'm not sure how I'd complete the system. I like the appearance of the Dreamcatchers and thought these might be a good compliment, but I, of course, have no idea. I had planned on buying an SVS PB-12 Ultra, sub, for the DQ10 system. I'm wondering if this would suit the Arro HT system, or would it, too, be overkill? Another, and perhaps greatest part of the problem is that I really don't know what AV receiver to match such a system with. Locally, the Pioneer Elite and Denon's are most popular. I assume, given the Arro's power ratings, that my Anthem Statement A5 would overpower them, at 180 rms per channel? I love almost all types of music, although perhaps Classical and the blues are my favourites. Nevertheless, the system will also function for home theatre, as a compliment to my Panny plasma. I guess that pretty much sums up the situation. Any and all advice/information, greatly appreciated. thanks in advance, John |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3694 Registered: Feb-05 | The SVS sub would not keep up with Totem Arro's. You would need a faster sub for music. Totem makes a couple of very good subs. They won't shake your house to the foundation but they will be a great match for the speakers. |
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New member Username: DrjPost Number: 2 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks. Are you sure about this? And, if so, what would you recommend? John |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1536 Registered: May-05 | I second what Art says. If you're interested in the Arros (great speaker BTW), the SVS isn't going to do it for music. The Arro is a very fast speaker, and the SVS will most likely have problems keeping up. Movies are another story though. Totem make a few great music subs. They may leave something to be desired if you watch big explosion type movies. This is true of just about every sub that's geared for music first. Their cheapest one starts at about $500 I think, and the next one up is about $1000. Both are worth every penny for music. Also, the Anthem may be a bit too powerful for the Arros. You shouldn't have any problems as long as you're careful. If you push them too far, you'll hear it. You'll hear the driver hit the basket (I think it's the basket, but I could be wrong). This won't cause any short term damage, but could if it repeatedly happens. Your dealer should be able to elaborate more on this. Under most conditions (your room isn't too big) you'll be fine. I think the sound will most likely be uncomfortably loud before you have any problems. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1537 Registered: May-05 | Other good music subs that I've personally heard are REL, ERA, and Martin Logan. Naim makes a phenominal sub that'll keep up with music and movies, but it's about $3500. If you've got the money, I haven't heard anything better. |
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New member Username: DrjPost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-06 | Stu, do you think it's worth giving the Anthem Statement a shot? This means I'd have to purchase a preamp and the Anthems start at $3,000. I could get a Denon or Pioner AV receiver for less than half that. I'm not into explosions (since I was a teenager) and boom boom. Thanks for the advice. John |
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Silver Member Username: Frostyda9Calgary, AB Canada Post Number: 123 Registered: May-05 | John - Totem recommends the Arro's be matched with the Dreamcatcher C/R for best timbral uniformity. If you want to go that route, the Dreamcatchers are probably your best bet. Personally, I would think twice about the Arro's for HT duty. They lack the impact that really makes a good HT. They are lightning quick, revealing, transparent, and musical, but not commanding. Good for music, so-so for movies. They are also brutally insensitive, so you're going to want some stout power behind them. |
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New member Username: DrjPost Number: 4 Registered: Nov-06 | Frosty (good name for Calgary), if not the Arros, what would you recommend for an HT system? thanks, John |
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New member Username: DrjPost Number: 5 Registered: Nov-06 | Frosty, my best friend lives in Calgary. I understand you've had snow since the storm hit Buffalo. I live between Buffalo and Niagara Falls, on the Canadian side. The older I get, the less I seem to tolerate winter (loved it as a kid, though). I'm torn on this HT system ... do I rebuild the old one (mega bucks) or settle for something like the Totem's, with a Denon or Pioneer Elite ... can't make up my mind. The 180 rms, from the Anthem Statement, would be too much for the Arro's, no? thanks, John |
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Bronze Member Username: GavdawgPost Number: 36 Registered: Nov-06 | he stated that he has a nice power amp to drive them with. I myself think that being the arros are insensitive, the 180 will be OK for HT. But, ask a dealer to be sure to avoid any issues. John, my GF lives in Jamestown, south of buffalo. small world lol I personally like the arros for HT, because they are quick and detailed. This draws me in more than the "wham bam thank you ma'am" of big balled ht systems. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4703 Registered: Dec-04 | Great reserves of power are not sinful. In fact, I find the drive of mid-level power more competant than 'reaching' in a moment of inspirational movements. Or when I am drunk. However its all fun and games till you blow something up. Input sensitivity is the equal of output, a dozen millivolts can have a big affect on the output side.You can also adjust the output by adjusting the input level. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/296384.html |
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New member Username: DrjPost Number: 6 Registered: Nov-06 | Gavin, thanks for the advice; I took it: I e-mailed Totem and asked them. Yes, I've been to Jamestown; it's not too far from here and a nice little town. Western NY is a nice place and I'm sure your GF is a beauty, both inside and out (if she's anything like the people I've met there). By the way, we're having some very wild weather, today and this weekend. I'd imagine that Buffalo and WNY are going to get hit hard, again. Not into "Wham bam" ... getting too old for that. Nuck, thanks for your input. I'll wait to hear from Totem on the use of the A5. Here are the specs: Power Output: - A5 180 Watts RMS x 5 into 8 Ohms; 265 Watts RMS x 5 into 4 Ohms - A2 200 Watts RMS x 2 into 8 Ohms; 300 Watts RMS x 2 into 4 Ohms MFR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz } 0.15 dB / 5 Hz - 100 kHz } 2 db Input Sensitivity: 1.5 Volts Input Impedance: 15 kOhms XLR and RCA Input Jacks S/N: 120 dB THD: 0.001% Dimensions: - A5 7-5/8" H x 17-1/4" W x 19-3/8" D - A2 7-5/8" H x 17-1/4" W x 13-1/2" D Weight: A5 57 Pounds The only real problem with using this amp is that I don't have a pre-amp and the corresponding pre is nosebleed expensive. thank you all, John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4710 Registered: Dec-04 | I was looking for damping factor on the amp but came up empty. The damping factor will give some indication of the forgiveness of the amp itself. In this class, a 100 factor is good. At any rate, the amp should simply multiply the input information. Damping factor is essential in a simple amplification(IMHO). Your amp is good. Keep it. Your choice of pre amp is varied. The pre need NOT match the amp.Period. Not at this level. Pre amps can be had in a multitude of flavors. I will offer mine or example. It matches the amp and trans-dac, but that is happenstance. The preamp is a switchbox, with a power supply( I am talking stereo).A couple of filters, and some really good caps and switches, and some balances(thats the money). The preamp must be as simple as possible. A minimum of shite in the way of the signal. Just boost it up to a useful level, let the amp do it's thing. Bass and Treble controls are just noise. Multi channel is just noise, unless you use a 5 channel preamp(processor) and amp.Thats more stuff in the path. Your amp is fine, maybe check out Classe CP50 or CP 60 preamps pre-loved. I quote from experience on this one.You can get them way cheaper, very good. Have you looked into Rogue audio? Tube preamps(99), etc? Good deals to be had. |
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New member Username: DrjPost Number: 7 Registered: Nov-06 | Nuck damping factor appears to be: 360 at 1 kHz (ref. 8 U) And, here are the specs from the manufacturer: http://statement.anthemav.com/HTML/Products/A_Series/Specs/A_Specs.html#11 My old Bryston setup included such a pre, with minimal signal interference (the problem was GF interference). This time around, I was thinking pre-pro; again, the cost is high. I'm still at the preliminary stages. I've been thinking about this for years, now and may dive in, come January; this is why I'm investigating. My Dahlquists have been sitting for nearly ten years and so they will need rebuilding. Yet, they're too big for my new living room; the reason I'm looking at the Totem Arros. Thanks for your responses. John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4713 Registered: Dec-04 | John, forget the Pioneer receiver thing. If you want a very capable pre/pro without busting the bank(and a very desirable unit for re-sale), check out the features of the Outlaw Audio 990. This unit does DVI as opposed to HDMI, avoiding the HDMI cycling currently underway. Converters are cheap. I prefer keeping the A/V seperate in any case. http://outlawaudio.com/products/990.html |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1539 Registered: May-05 | The Outlaw is a great recommendation Nucko. Again, I wouldn't worry too much about overdriving the Arros. You seem like an intelligent person who knows when to back off. Plus, with a room that size, it's gonna get pretty loud. Most likely very uncomfortably loud before any limits are reached. If you had a big room, then things would be different. Also, the Arros can be very dynamic in the right room. Frosty suggested that they lack some impact. This is true for big rooms. The speaker is a small speaker, but in a moderate to smaller room, it can really shine in this regard. One of the Arro's strongest suits is voicing IMO. Everyone raves about their imaging and ability to disappear, which is true, but forget to mention their tonality and voicing. They do a phenominal job at this, making them a great H/T speaker as well as a music speaker. If getting the Arros, you should at the very least get a matching center speaker. While you should also get matching surrounds, you could easily get away with a step up the ladder in the center, and a step down in the surrounds. That depends on your budget of course. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1540 Registered: May-05 | BTW, the Arros aren't power hungry per se, they're quality power hungry. A Naim Nait 5i at 50 watts/channel can drive them more than sufficiently. The Arro's downfall (if you consider this a downfall) is that they are very revealing of what they're connected to. Their price is very decieving. Hook it up to cheaper stuff and you get crap sound. I've heard them hooked up to about $10K of SimAudio gear, and they didn't seem to be that far out of their element. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4720 Registered: Dec-04 | I ponied up the Outlaw on the strength of the amp, and what looks like a really good match. The 990 is balanced, can handle variable inputs to the amp, plus all the other stuff. If I didn't have a minimalist setup, I would go for this one. I have to focus on the power end here, I just don't know enough about the Totem's to contribute. Source, source, source? |
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New member Username: DrjPost Number: 8 Registered: Nov-06 | Nuck, thanks for the Outlaw 990 recommendation/reference. That thing is exactly what I'm looking for. I had my heart set on the Anthem D1/2, but just find it hard to justify that much money (the D2 is $6,000cnd.). Given the difference in price and the reviewer's comment that the Outlaw 990 is 90% the Anthem AVM50 (which is about $4,500.00cnd), I can't see paying 3x as much to make up for a 10% difference. If this is how they stack up, I may very well go for this! Nuck ... THANK YOU! And, Stu, thanks for the feedback on the speakers. I have e-mailed Totem with the specs for my amp. It will be interesting to read their response. Also, you're correct; I'm not looking to crank them to the point where I'd blow them ... too old for that. Then, again, as I get older, I may have to crank them to hear them! lol Plan to audition the Totem's on Monday; will keep you posted. Again, thank you both! John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4728 Registered: Dec-04 | Thank-you, John. Stu, a tip o' the glass, buddy. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4729 Registered: Dec-04 | Now, John, about your source... |
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New member Username: DrjPost Number: 9 Registered: Nov-06 | Source, Nuck ... you mean of money? lol John |
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New member Username: DrjPost Number: 10 Registered: Nov-06 | Nuck, if you mean signal source, which I assume is what you mean, I have an HD sat box and a cheapo DVD player. I also have an old TEAC reel to reel and a beautiful, old, direct drive, Dual turntable. For CD/DVD, I've been waiting out the Blu-ray, Toshiba battle. For the sat box, I assume the 990 is only a switcher and not a video processor? thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4734 Registered: Dec-04 | John,I didn't ask about phono. The phono pre on the Outlaw is very good as well, I am told. Many good cd players out there, when you have your setup on the go, you might want to try a good cdp in your system. And an investment banker, LOL. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 11 Registered: Nov-06 | Oh'O ... that doesn't sound good (no pun intended). From what I understand, the new DVD, high def players will also utilize a new, higher audio standard. I thought it best to wait out the change in the industry. Nevertheless, could you provide an example of a decent cdp? Nuck, I've been comparing the specs of the Anthem Pre-Pros: http://www.anthemav.com/NewSitev2.0/AnthemProduct/AVM30_40_50/Specs/AVM30_40_50S pecs.html with the Outlaw 990: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/990.html and there seems to be quite a difference; but, I'm not absolutely sure the specs are apples to apples. For the price, though, I don't think I have the right to be too picky. What do you make of the comparison? Thanks for all this. John |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3698 Registered: Feb-05 | Not much sense waiting out the change John. We will all be streaming lossless music all about our living environs at just as high a def resolution as you could ever hope to hear from Blu Ray soon enough. In between you'll need (oops assuming again) to listen to your CD's at their best. Nothing like a good dedicated cd player to bring new life to your old music and a smile to your face. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 12 Registered: Nov-06 | Art, can you steer me towards some reasonable choices? John |
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Silver Member Username: Frostyda9Calgary, AB Canada Post Number: 124 Registered: May-05 | John: I use my Arro's for movies too (contrary to what you might have expected) but I do so in stereo. I find them capable conjuring enough spatiality that they captivate my attention and draw me into the movie. Where some systems do this with sheer visceral impact, the little Totems do it with seductive finesse. It seems that outright SPL is not as important to you as I originally assumed. In that regard, they may very well be something that would work well for you. You also might want to have a look at the Dreamcatcher 5.1 package. While you don't get the Arro's, you do get a sub, and near-perfect cross-plane timbre matching, something I have always considered very important for panning audio in a HT setup. You have given us a fair bit of info, but you have not broken down how much of your audio time is spent with video sources, and how much of it is consumed by muisc-only sessions. I think that's a factor that you should consider as well before you make any final decisions. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 54 Registered: Nov-06 | Just a comment- When the whole HDMI 1.3 HDCP dust settles. DVI connection may be out of luck. Remember the "hi-def" audio will be protected as well. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3700 Registered: Feb-05 | What kind of budget are you talking John? |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 13 Registered: Nov-06 | Frosty, it's difficult to answer the question about vid vs music time since I've been without audio and video since March of 97 and I only picked up a TV, a year and a half ago. I watch about 2 to 3 hours of tv, per day. I've always been passionate about music, though ... since I was a kid listening to the introduction of the Beatles, all the way up to Mozart, Bartok, List and so on. A 50/50 split might be a reasonable assumption. DVI out of luck? Is that possible? Wouldn't they make a way to get around the whole HDMI 1.3 HDCP? All I can say is that compared to the Anthem PrePro, the Outlaw 990, with a 30 day, full money back guarantee and five year transferable warrantee has all the Anthems beat, at least in this regard. I could always sell the Outlaw a few years from now (after I win the lottery) and buy a D2. Budget ... I'd like to keep it under $4,000 cnd, if I can. I'm hoping Totem will make me a deal where I can lose a pair of Dreamcathers, replacing them with the Arros and perhaps upgrading the sub; so, all this, plus the 990 and the wiring. As I said, I have a cheapo dvd player, with optical out, that I can live with until the new HD formats work themselves out. I've gone nearly ten years without audio and video ... I have patience! lol thanks for all your help. John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 14 Registered: Nov-06 | I'm also a little unsure about the subs. I've never really been keen on these things, at all. I will rebuild my Dahlquist DQ10's, within the next year and these really do require a sub. In researching the sub topic, I can say that the SVS PB12-Ultra, comes highly recommended and has many very positive reviews. Yet, in researching the Totem Thunder sub, for example, there is only one entry from a google search. In that one example, however, the fellow does say he's impressed with it and its musicality. From everything I've read about the Arros, they remind me of the DQ10s and so I'm hoping that whatever sub I purchase, it will suit both formats the Arro/HT and my DQ10's. Any further thoughts on this subject would also be appreciated. thanks, John |
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Bronze Member Username: The13thgryphonSpokane, WA USA Post Number: 30 Registered: Jul-04 | John B., Take what Stu and Art are saying about subs to heart. I own Magnepan's, which are similar to the Totem line in terms of their speed and clarity (though completely different in how they get there). You do not want to mess up that sound with a ponderous and under-damped sub. Being from the Rega/Naim camp I happen to value PRaT (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing), as well as tonal accuracy and clarity. Sub choices are very, VERY critical to ensure that the cohesive sound provided by this type of equipment, and reproduced by quality speakers, is not degraded. I know SVS' reputation. There's no doubt that they do "crash, boom, bang" as well as anyone out there. They are even up to the task of musical reinforcement for a lot of folks, in a lot of systems. However, a Totem system would not be one that they are well suited for. For a Totem or Maggie system you need a tightly controlled sub with tonal accuracy. That is not the norm for a majority of subwoofers. Sealed subs generally are much better controlled, and therefore more likely to be musical subs... but there are a few brands out there using ported designs that are also quite capable of reproducing musical notes and not just explosions. Many ported designs, however, sacrifice tonal accuracy for volume and a lower frequency limit (IMHO). Personally, I'd rather have accurate, tuneful, controlled lower frequencies; especially for music, though I happen to think that it benefits movies as well. You should be looking at brands mentioned above: REL, ERA, and Martin Logan; as well as the offerings from Vandersteen and ACI (Audio Concepts Incorporated). I haven't heard the Naim or Totem subs personally, so I can't comment... but I've been reading this board long enough to know that Stu and Art seem to know what their talking about, and I've come to value their opinions. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3703 Registered: Feb-05 | I guess my budget question was not specific enough..I meant for the dedicated cd player that you were asking about. John M's recommendations for subs and his comments in general are right on the money. Good subs ain't cheap. I know I'm facing that decision myself right now. I would rather not have one than have a slow ponderous one. Good yet inexpensive cd players can be had from NAD (521,525 and 542), Cambridge (540 and 640), and Rotel. The best cd player under 1k IMHO is the Rega Apollo. These are all fabulous players that get the music right and that's what it's about. Another sub brand to add to the list is Essex. |
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Bronze Member Username: GavdawgPost Number: 49 Registered: Nov-06 | Honestly, the new sealed SVS would probably work well in your system. I would think it is worth a shot. If it doesnt work you could always send it back. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3704 Registered: Feb-05 | Gavin I talked to the fellas at SVS and got the impression that they have no clue what makes a subwoofer musical in fact I'm not sure after speaking with Eric at SVS if they even know what a musical sub is. He was absolutely sure that the only difference between the sealed sub and the ported ones was output SPL's. That's it! As far as he's concerned the portred subs are every bit as musical as the sealed one. Having owned one of the ported ones and taking Eric's word for the quality of his product I don't think that I would match one up against any speaker better than a Cerwin Vega. Just my opinion. |
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Bronze Member Username: GavdawgPost Number: 53 Registered: Nov-06 | OK ART!!! thanks for the heads up! I was tempted to try one. scratch that one of the list. I have always thought of SVS as a bloated wind box, now that explains why! I must specify that I dont have expereince with any SVS better than the mid range. But I didnt find them a particularly special product. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 15 Registered: Nov-06 | I lucked out when I came to this forum. It's a gift to receive this level of guidance and information; I thank you all. John M., thanks for the detailed info.. I am reading and listening, beginning to understand the distinguishing features of these things. As I said, I've never been crazy about subs and when I say that, I mean the boom, bang, bash, crash, thump, thud sound of the things. They're in a world of their own, for a purpose all their own and not something I consider suitable for quality musical listening (the reason I never bought a sub for the DQ10's, in the first place). I know the Cerwin Vegas and no offence to anyone, but I do not consider these quality speakers (at least not the units they produced originally). Art and Gavin, I appreciate your guidance. I think I'll scratch SVS off the list. Tomorrow I hope to audition the Totems and hopefully they'll have a couple of their sub examples. Art, as for CD players, I think I'll just stick with my cheapo for a bit longer, spreading out the financial damage over a longer period of time. I don't mind doing this because it also gives me something to look forward to. How long do you think it'll be before there's any HD DVD standardization or a player that will be capable of both Blu-ray and Toshiba formats, with the new, higher audio standard? Are we talking years? Again, thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1467 Registered: Jun-05 | Actually,for music the bass will suprise you with Arros,they are one of the most revealing speakers I,ve heard of bad electronics.Stu told you the right things,I owned them for a year,if I were you I would look into the Totem subs,the other subs like stated are all the cream of the crop when it comes to music.The Dreamcatcher sub is your best bet though better yet get 2 of them it will be the fastest and its timbre matched for the Arro,kinda strange to think of a sub to be timbre matched for a certain speaker,but aint nothing normal about the Arros but in a very good unique way though. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 16 Registered: Nov-06 | So, Tawaun, you'd choose the Dreamcatcher sub over the Thunder version? Thanks for you input. John |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1472 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah,because you can go 2 subs and save and it will have a more even response in your room. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 18 Registered: Nov-06 | Good point; thanks. Off to addition. John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 19 Registered: Nov-06 | I think I meant audition. It was an experience. John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 20 Registered: Nov-06 | Hello everyone, an update. I put the Arros through their paces, via Richard Strauss, "Also Sprach Zarathustra, the first three tracks, Ocean, from Led Zeppelin's "Houses of the Holy," and finally, "Brain Damage" and "Eclipse," the last two tracks from Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon." There's no question that the Arros were most at home with the classical piece, while definitely not suited for Led Zeppelin. I also auditioned a pair of "Staffs," and while these were warmer, they still were not ideal for Zeppelin, while almost perfect for Floyd. I would describe the Arros as sharper sounding (and so aptly named) than the Staffs and, perhaps, better performers as this characteristic appeals to me more than the warmth of the Staffs. While listening, I must say, I was amazed at the sound these Arros are capable of producing. There were no subs to accompany any of these speakers and so I'm still a bit in the dark as to how this would change the quality of the listening experience, how seamlessly the subs would accompany the music, if at all. I can, without doubt, say that the Arros are absolutely no match for my Dahlquist DQ10's (driven by my old Bryston 4B), although they resemble the high end of these speakers (which is perhaps why they appeal to me). I have a couple of questions. How many would agree that having dual dreamcatcher subs, instead of an updated storm sub, would be a good idea/approach? And, would it be wasteful to have a pair of Arros as rears, instead of a pair of dreamcatchers rears (in other words, four Arros)? Thanks in advance. John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 21 Registered: Nov-06 | Hi, I'm surprised I've received no responses; have been eagerly waiting. I've just learned that the Totem subs do not accept balanced inputs, only rca. I assume, then, that this is a disadvantage of the Totem subs? If so, what would I be sacrificing? And, I assume the Outlaw 990 is still capable of driving them, despite this deficiency? Thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4747 Registered: Dec-04 | John, I am not aware of any subs that do provide an XLR or balanced input. Low-level(Totem's wording) is line level, or signal, from the receiver or IA. High level would be binding posts for the speaker leads themselves, the crossover in the sub determines frequency. The outlaw can make use of any sub. The bass management of the 990 makes line level simpler, as the receiver cuts off higher frequencies at your choosing. The storm also has variable outs if you are using the high level inputs. This can alter the frequencies being fed to the main speakers, limiting the lowest frequencies that they see. A small set of mains would not be exposed to the lowest of lows, possibly sparing the bass units from over doing things. I would be careful with dual subs. If improperly placed, you can get standing waves and have them cancel each other out. Unless your room is really large, a single is usually sufficient. 4 Arro's would be fine, it's your $, and 5 identical speakers for 5.1 is a good bet, but think about how much information is actually sent to the rears in film. SACD is different if that is your consideration here. If so, then yes, all Arro's would be an asset. Check the 990 again, see if it has A/B selection. If it has, you can run 4 speaker stereo, and then the 4 Arro's would be better yet. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 22 Registered: Nov-06 | Nuck, thanks for the response and explanation. So, from your point of view, I'd be better off with a single, upgraded sub than two Dreamcatcher subs? Or, are you suggesting that a single Dreamcatcher sub would be fine? I've checked the site and it does not specifically say A/B selection, but there's so much information and, honestly, I don't understand at least half of it. Here's the site: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/990.html There's also a toggle for base management Matrix. I can't believe the level of complexity and I'm still at the shopping end of it. I guess it's better to be informed, beforehand; but, the more I get into it, the more confused I feel. I guess that's always a good thing ... means I'm learning. Thank you, Nuck. John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4752 Registered: Dec-04 | John, yes you are into a very complex place with the 990. The features are numerous, but I think in this case you are deaaling with a high quality item. In fact, the 990 is capable of running 2 subs at different frequancies! A pair of smaller subs will not get you any lower(see the Dreamcatcher at 30Hz), but a pair could be cutoff at different Hz and placed for great effect. This would take some doing. I would also suggest at this time that you evaluate the relationship that you have with a dealership. I would not want to commit to such a large project without the input and support of someone who should be considered a quiet partner in this endeavor. Nuck |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 23 Registered: Nov-06 | Hello Nuck & yes, I've asked Totem and their response was that if I listened to more music, dual Dreamcatchers, but if I was more into movies, a single storm sub would be ideal. Truth is, I'll be doing both ... As with everything, this hobby is an exercise in trade-offs. I read last night that while the Outlaw is on par with the AVM30, it's no match for the D1/2 or Arcam AV8/9 (a described 25% gain, at 5x the price). And, in truth, I'd like to rebuild my Dahlquists, but that makes it difficult to create a balanced surround package. Also, I have no idea how they're going to change in sound, with the new amp and whatever prepro I buy. An exercise in confusion, but eventually I'll make some decisions. Thanks for your help, John |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1546 Registered: May-05 | Why would you need two subs? The room is 11x17x8. I'm no expert in subs, but I'd suspect that the room isn't too big for a single sub. What does the dealer say? Again, I'm no expert on this. I've never owned nor placed one, so take it as you will. Also, don't let the confusion get to you. Their are a lot of variables that need to be worked out before you start spending your money. It's far better to know all of your options and what every piece can and more importantly cannot do before you buy. This way, you won't be stuck. Always ask as many questions as you have before buying. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 24 Registered: Nov-06 | Stu, you're absolutely right; the room is not big and one sub would more than suffice. The idea is to use two Dreamcatcher subs to make up for the bottom end loss in the Arros, matching each one for balanced sound. Totem's response was that dual dreamcatcher subs might be the better option for music, but that a single Storm was, otherwise, the way to go, especially for movies. Yes, many variables. I love my old Dahlquists, but for suround sound I just don't think they're ideal, not to mention the fact that they're huge. But I certainly don't have the spare coin for two systems, one for HT and another for music. The PrePro thing is also a dilemma, although I had thought I could go the Outlaw route, for now, and upgrade a few years down the road. Thanks for the advice, Stu. Yes, I'm asking a lot of questions. In time, the choices should reveal themselves (I hope). John |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1744 Registered: Sep-04 | Phew! Just finished reading this. Here's some observations for you: At the rear, the correct speakers to use in this situation would be either the Totem Lynks or the Tribe. The Lynks is a dipole and a) much closer to the THX spec for a surround speaker) and b) much better at the spatial effects more usual for surround speakers. They're a bit more expensive than Dreamcatchers but much less expensive than Arros. The Tribe is a new addition and the little listening I've done has been far more impressive than one would expect by looking at them! Stereo subs would probably be better in your environment, but it's not a given. The Dreamcatcher sub is a great little sub and it certainly enhances the Arros capabilities, but it doesn't have the Thunder's ultimate capabilities in terms of bass depth. I haven't played with the Storm I'm afraid, so can't comment there. The Dreamcatcher stereo option is an interesting one, provided you aren't too restricted in terms of where to put the subs. The best locations typically are in a stereo location near the main speakers or one in the middle at the front (between the main speakers) and one at the back of the room in the middle facing the front. Other successful solutions have the subs at diagonal opposite corners. The problem with the two latter solutions is often cabling. The Dreamcatcher sub doesn't have the ability to daisy chain from one to the next, so the processor must have the capability to output to more than one sub. Since you are firing down the length of the room, if your couch is a fair distance from the back wall (say 4 feet or so), then the surround speakers (note, not rears) should be placed to the sides of the couch in line with your head (usually a bit higher, but still in line). Another option here (and you appear to have the power amps for it) would be to run 7.1. In this scenario, you could add a pair of rear speakers on the back wall. My approach would be a pair of Lynks speakers for surround and a pair of Dreamcatchers on the back wall. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 29 Registered: Nov-06 | Frank, Thanks for taking the time to write this detailed and informative response. I'm sure that what you say about the Lynks is true, although I don't find them very attractive. But, I'm stuck in a gear or two behind choosing between the dreamcatchers or the Lynks, behind choosing between one sub or two. I have a pair of Dahlquist DQ 10's, that I purchased new, in 1980. They need rebuilding and the original factory is two months behind with rebuild orders. I know these are not ideal for a surround sound system, but they are for classical music; I've never heard anything that can surpass them. Not sure if you're familiar with these, as their greatest popularity was likely in the NY city area. I can have these completely restored for the price of a pair of Arros and while the Arros are awesome speakers, they're not DQ 10's. At this moment, this is the decision I'm stuck on: do I rebuild the Dahlquists and try to build a Totem surround package around them or skip the Dahlquists and stick to a dedicated, Totem surround package? The Dahlquists are in a world all their own. Each speaker has a large, 10 or 12" Advent woofer, inside a sealed box. The top of the box is a stage for the four remaining drivers: two mids, a high frequency, dome tweeter and a horn. Each of the four drivers are attached to a plate, of specific size and shape, designed for the specific driver and the plates are all staggered so that all the drivers are in phase with each other. The crossover looks like a mini motherboard. And, each of the pair of speakers is a mirror image of the other. Given they were designed in the 70's, they're remarkable. And, if you were to do a google search, you'd discover a 100 %, consumer satisfaction rating. I've listened to systems costing well over ten grand that could not surpass the performance of these speakers, other than when playing Led Zeppelin type music or for dedicated movie watching. So, how can I say no to these things? I'm not in any hurry or any rush. I'd like to make these decisions over the course of the next few months. What would you do? Again, thanks! John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 30 Registered: Nov-06 | Here's a bit of a write-up on the DQ 10's: http://www.epinions.com/content_4300841092 thanks, John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 31 Registered: Nov-06 | Greetings everyone! I thought I'd provide an update on the direction of my thinking! lol Stereophile Magazine did a ranking of the top 100 milestones in the development of HiFi audio and ranked at number 92, is my old set of Dahlquist DQ10's: http://www.stereophile.com/features/709/index.html This is, of course, very subjective, but still positive. Having listened to the Arros, while these are, no doubt, wonderful speakers, they're not going to compete with my DQ10's, not when I've listened to these for 17 years. After that length of time, whatever you're accustomed to is going to become your standard, or, at least, in my case it has. So, I think I am going to opt for the factory rebuild. This will likely take two to three months. This leaves me with the rounding out the remainder of the 5.1 system. 7.1, for now, will remain on the backburner (requiring an additional amp, as well as speakers). PrePro: while I'd like to get the Anthem D1 or 2, I find it hard to justify the expense. The salesman said that the Anthem PrePro's keep getting better, while the price keeps falling. Given this reality, if what he says is true, I thought that instead of buying a D1, used, I could get an Outlaw 990, for less than half the price of a used D1, with a full, five year warrantee and a 30 day money back guarantee. On top of this, they apparently have a high resale value, given the transferable warrantee and so I figure I could take the extra money I save, by buying the 990, and put it towards better speakers. Then, four years from now, I could sell the Outlaw and get whatever new and improved unit is around at the time. Does this sound like a reasonable and practical idea? Now, the only other problem is the remaining speakers. The best approach is to audition, in house; but, if you buy used, this option is obviously not available. Also, the retailers seem no longer keen on allowing one to experiment with their offerings. So, I don't know how I'm going to approach this, exactly, but if any of you have any ideas, I'm certainly open to them. I contacted Totem, for example and asked for recommendations; they thought: the model 1 center would be the appropriate center channel as rear application either the lynxs, rainmaker or model 1 can be incorporated we would recommend the storm as the subwoofer So, at this moment, this is the direction my research and thoughts have taken me. Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! John |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1747 Registered: Sep-04 | John, I don't know the Dahlquists at all so I can't comment there. Whenever choosing a different brand to complete your surround setup you have the problem of integration. You need to choose a presentation that is similar to that of your main speakers or which is essentially characterless (very rare). I've never heard DQs so apply liberal quantities of salt to my following comments. You will really have to choose carefully and your approach should be to find a reasonably good dealer who will lend you speakers to try at home in the HT scenario. You will only be able to do this once you have repaired and burned in your DQs, so we're talking a good 3 - 6 month lead time here, enough time for you to do some homework! Certain of Totem's range do have a lighter presentation. These would be the Dreamcatcher, Mite (a really lovely little monitor), Lynks, Rainmaker and Model-1 Signature. I think you should discount the Arro because although it's quite bright, it's got quite a kick in the bass. The Model-1 is a fabulous unit, but then it is a premium price item. The Model-1 centre is a fine performer and again has that clean lighter presentation. Other 'lighter presentation' options: Naim n-Sat. A quality mini-monitor again with a light, fast, touch. I believe Naim have special wall brackets for them too. Naim's n-Cent centre is the match for the n-Sat and this would be good, but they also make a higher end centre called the Axess which is very clean and fast, and simply excellent. Focal JmLab 705V: Lower quality but fine performer. There are appropriate centres from Focal too. Just some thoughts... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1748 Registered: Sep-04 | Forgot to address subs! In my view, the most uncoloured subs I have had the pleasure of using have been Velodyne. They are fine performers and good value for money generally speaking. There seems little point in matching to the centre and rears here, especially if you want to use the sub with the DQs for music (although I have reservations about doing this). The Velodynes really are excellent. They come in small sealed units which lower cabinet colouration significantly and they're very fast indeed so they usually don't hold the music up. I would be looking at something like the SPL1000 to accomplish this job. The Naim n-Sub is excellent but it may be beyond budget. I think the Totems are good but probably too characterful, being timbre matched to the Totem speakers. the only other sub I would mention is the M&K MX7000SF. It's a very good sub indeed and not as characterful as M&K's other subs so it blends in more easily with other brands. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 32 Registered: Nov-06 | Frank, The Arros are not that different from the DQ10's, save for the lack of base (10" advent woofers), the warmth of the mids (a pair) and for the horn; in all other respects, they are similar. The DQ10's are very transparent and if an amp has any noise, any shortcomings, at all, the DQ10's will reveal them. The Arros have the same clean, high end and both are difficult to drive. The idea of choosing carefully motivates me to choose compulsively. You're advice is spot on (as you might say), in regards to auditioning. However, there are only three dealers within 45 minutes of here and none of them are willing to allow you to take home their products. This makes it all the more difficult. And, should I find any that are, I'm going to be paying a premium. Also, thanks for calling attention to the need to break in the Dahlquists, once they're rebuilt (I hadn't thought of this). My guess is, I'm not going to get them back until March and so that gives me quite a window. Nevertheless, the same rule applies to the new speakers, as they, too, will change in time. Regarding the base of the Arro, it was nearly non-existent, compared to the DQ's (again, 10" Advent, sealed woofers). Also, in their day, one of the complaints about the DQ 10's was their lack of balanced low end, given the high end is what was/is so brilliant and impressive. These were amongst the first speakers I know of, to come recommended with a sub (which I never purchased). Also, I grew up in the 60's and back then, if your ears weren't bleeding, from listening to Led Zeppelin II or the Ocean track, from Houses of the Holy, something was wrong! lol So, I think the Arros would be fine with the DQ10's, but I think perhaps your suggestion to use the Lynks would better suit the overall surround package (would you agree with this? Aesthetically, the Arros would be the better choice, hands down). From the Totem specs and dimensions, the Model-1 Signature would physically fit my space requirements almost perfectly. And, while this unit might not be cheap, I intend to follow through with the Outlaw 990 purchase, which will save me enough to make up for the speakers. Three or four years from now, I'll upgrade the 990. As for Naim and Focal, I know of no dealers around here that carry them. Regarding your sub reservations, actually, that's exactly what I'd desire: to find a sub that would seamlessly enhance the DQ10's musical potential. Just how I'm going to figure that out, is well beyond me (especially given the fact that I've never really liked the sound of a sub). My only thought on this, besides researching the net (which has, so far, turned up empty), is to ask the Dahlquist factory reps. Frank, I appreciate your comments. I really hadn't thought of the break-in-period and the changes in sound. I do have time and hopefully the fog will clear. At least I know I'm heading towards the rebuild and the 990. Again, thank you! John p.s. My current problem is figuring out how to wrap and package the Dahlquists for shipping to Long Island, NY! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1753 Registered: Sep-04 | John, I'm surprised you can't audition at home in your own surroundings. That makes life very difficult, particularly when trying to match items. Perhaps you could take along your (broken-in) DQ10s for a demo. Seems a bit draconian to me that the dealer doesn't offer you the service. I'm not saying you shouldn't pay anything but I'd expect to be able to offer a surety. Over here, we lend customers anything that can be covered by an authorisation on their credit card. We don't bank the money but since they have gone through an authorisation we can do so if they should vanish. What you say regarding the differences between Aros and DQ10s gives me pause. You say "save for the lack of base (10" advent woofers), the warmth of the mids (a pair) and for the horn" - well there's not much else is there?  In my opinion, Arros are a bit bright (some would say quite bright). This can be tamed with the use of 2 pairs of Totem Beaks which definitely smooth out that trait. However, I don't find them lacking in bass and this is what gives me pause. You say the DQ10s have more bass. Adding any more bass to Arros would have me in a bit of a tizz so perhaps we are looking for different presentations here! This is not completely unusual since it's a reasoably accepted fact that the American market prefers a bigger more bass-heavy presentation to the Brits. If you really feel the need for the extra bass, have a look at the subs I mention. Since they're American, they should be even better value than over here in the UK where American goods carry a premium due to distribution costs. That said, the Dahlquist people are bound to have a good idea of what to use. The Model-1 is quite significantly superior to the Arro. It has far better contrast, resolution and sheer slam than the Arro, but then when you consider it carries a price tag nearly twice that of the Arro (once you've factored in the mandatory Totem stands), this stands to reason. The Model-1 centre speaker uses similar drive units to the Model-1, rather than the smaller, more limited drive units of the Arro, Dreamcatcher and Lynks. That said, the Lynks is a significantly different design, being a dipole and I cannot tell you offhand whether this is a preferable solution simply because I haven't done a direct comparison, and I respect the capabilities of a dipole against a monopole design. Difficult choice, but I think the Model-1 solution would take it. Breaking in speakers always takes a while. New drive units have to run in. If they rebuild the crossovers (which they should as they'll also be tired), then the components therein also need to run in. They simply settle down to their respective values and begin to work more consistently over some time. How much time this takes varies from speaker to speaker, but a period of 3 to 4 weeks isn't unusual. Regards and good luck, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 33 Registered: Nov-06 | Frank, In this part of the country, the market is limited and there's also competition between the few stores that carry these products. The local fellow doesn't have a great deal of stock, but will order anything I want. Also, not sure about the UK, but Canadians are, in general (to put it politely) on the thrifty side, or how about "economically conservative?" Given the cost of the equipment and the approach we take to consumerism (we want new, in box, unused ... bang for the buck), the lending approach seems no longer an option. Yes, they would allow me to bring my speakers in for a trial session, but the DQ 10's weigh at least 50lbs each and are quite large; it would be quite a chore, with an opportunity for damage. And, yes, I agree, the Arros are bright (sharp and so aptly named), as are the Dahlquists. As for the base, the DQ10's have 10" woofers, the Arros, 5" drivers that play a dual role: both woofer and mid range. Also, when my DQ 10's were operational, they were driven by a Bryston 4b, with 250 --300 watts rms, and a damping factor of 500. If you played something like the 1812 Overture, the cannon fodder could literally be felt in your chest; the Arros are simply incapable of doing this, haven't the drivers. The mid range of the DQ 10's have two drivers, magnapans (I think that's what they're called) and for the high end, a high frequency dome tweeter and a horn. So, in this case, we're comparing a speaker with five drivers, to a speaker with a pair. In the respect of brightness, they are very similar. As for base, you're probably right about the cultural differences as N. Americans love power, be it in a car, motorcycle, boat, audio equipment and so on. The Storm sub looks like it might be a reasonable match and I will shop around. I will also ask the Dahlquist people; but, they made a sub of their own, some 25/30 years ago and I'm inclined to believe they'll promote their own product. Since then, though, I'd think that some advances have been made in sub technology so that there should presently be better options, than the original Dahlquist attempts. I am strongly leaning toward the Model-1 Signature Center as its dimensions suit my requirements, almost perfectly. The cherry finish, of the center, is also a nearly perfect match with my furniture (although this is true of almost all the cherry Totems). So, what remains is the choosing of the rear speakers. I assume you're saying that the Model-1 would make the best overall choice for rears? Again, the Arros would be ideal, aesthetically; but, should the Model-1 be the best choice, I'd make my own stands, as I care not at all for the aesthetic of that square steel tubing. If I understand you correctly, then, you think the Model-1 rears would be an even better choice than the Lynks? My feeling is the Lynks would be the better option for movies and sound effects, but that either the Arro or Model-1 would better suit the music environment, should I choose to play SACD, somewhere down the line. Again, from a purely aesthetic point of view, the Arros would be the best choice, I feel. Well, it's now a matter of figuring out how to ship the DQ 10's. I really think it would be a lot easier if I could just drive them to Long Island, given all the obstacles: too large, no shipping containers, border issues and the shipper's in a neighbouring city. Well, one step at a time, I guess. Frank, again, I appreciate your input and guidance. Thank you! John |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1120 Registered: Mar-05 | Frank, off subject questions if you don't mind. I see that Totem has taken the Rainmaker center channel off it's website. Have they discontinued that model that you know of? |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 36 Registered: Nov-06 | Greetings, I found an original and clear example of my old speakers, the Dahlquist DQ 10's and given how old they really are, how few of you would recognize them, I thought sharing not a bad idea. The open, front shots reveal a setup that is somewhat different than my own, but otherwise they are the same. Looking at them now, they sure seem dated (old, like me). Nevertheless, the sound these things produce is really something worth hearing, especially when playing classical music: http://cgi.ebay.com/Dahlquist-DQ-10...1QQcmdZViewItem John |
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Silver Member Username: Frostyda9Calgary, AB Canada Post Number: 125 Registered: May-05 | "I don't find them lacking in bass and this is what gives me pause" Down to about 60 Hz they are reasonably believeable. Below that, forget it. They simply can't move enough air to produce the impact of a low bass note. The Arro's have a knack for creating bass you can hear, but not feel. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 39 Registered: Nov-06 | Frosty, well put; thank you. John |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1758 Registered: Sep-04 | John, My view is that if you go with the Model-1 centre then you should match this at the back with the Model-1s. If you truly decide to make your own stands, you must make sure they're heavy. This seems to be a requirement with both the Model-1 and the Mani-2. However, the Model-1 stands are not as heavy as the Mani-2's. That said, I can't tell you exactly how heavy they should be since I haven't weighed them and cannot do so. I appreciate that the Arro would be the aesthetic choice, but its driver complement is so different to that of the Model-1 that I feel you would have a far more credible result with the Model-1 when using the Model-1 Centre. It's only the Lynks which confuses the issue sincde this is such a different design that I'm not sure which speaker would come out on top. I suspect that since the driver complement is the same style as the Arro, then the Model-1 would win out tonally, but in terms of spatial effect I wonder if the Lynks is the better solution. I'd go for the Model-1 though, on the basis that it's got the same voice as the centre. As for the sub issue, there's no harm in asking DQ for an opinion. If they do have one that matches the 10s you may want to consider that carefully. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1759 Registered: Sep-04 | Joseph, I've just looked and it's there. There's a separate menu item called 'Center Channel' which has it in. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 40 Registered: Nov-06 | Thank you, Frank. Is there a difference between the Model-1 and the Model-1 Signature; or, are they the same speakers? All I saw in the store was a stand made from four posts, each square metal tubing. They may have been for the Mani-2, but if these are the same stands used for the Model-1, then, I'm afraid they're too cold looking for me. I prefer wood and it wouldn't be that difficult to make a similar set from cherry. Frank, are there any floor standing models, similar to the Arro, that would match the Model-1 Signiture Center, sonically (a floor standing Model-1), or are we talking too much money for any practical benefit? Again, thanks for your response. John |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1138 Registered: Mar-05 | Swear I am not crazy. Last time I was there they must have been creating that new section. Oh well good I am glad to see that a possible Totem surround setup is still feasible in the future. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 43 Registered: Nov-06 | Joseph, I missed it too; the center section is at the very bottom of the column and easily missed. How do these rainmakers compare to the Model-1? thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1143 Registered: Mar-05 | Have not heard the model 1's. The only other Totem's I heard when auditioning the Rainmakers was the Arros. I thought the Rainmakers had much more detail and depth than the Arros. I heard them on a NAD and they reached a little lower than with the Jolida, but I am used to it now and love it. It seems to engage more detail and midrange not having a subwoofer running. I work for Merillat kitchens and we have a top shop. I had the guys in the top shop build two pedestals exact depth and width as the Totems. I had them cover the pedestals in laminate that pretty much looks exactly like the mahoghany finish on the speakers. I filled them with sand and just spent a long time the other day moving them all around to find the best balance of soundstage and range. Amazing how just a fraction of an inch makes a big difference (I know Jan it's like the third time I've said that) but it's true. I am very happy the salesman talked me into raising what I was willing to spend on some new speakers at the time I bought these. I run a Monster hts3600 power conditioner running a Denon 2910 and the Jolida 502B. The two are connected with an Audioquest Diamondback interconnect and both have ZU cables power cables. I absolutely love this setup and could only see spending alot more to jump up in quality from this setup. So until my daughter graduates college I will be happy with what I got. I would love to have a surround setup with these but I wonder if it wouldn't take away the magic these two speakers on 2 channel. Oh well I have rambled enough now. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 44 Registered: Nov-06 | Joseph, correct me if I'm wrong, but, the Rainmakers, these are available only in bookshelf and center formats; is that right? Or, is there a floor standing model, like the Arro? thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1148 Registered: Mar-05 | Bookshelf only. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1765 Registered: Sep-04 | John, A wooden stand would probably not be heavy enough and the vibration absorption probably wouldn't be right. The Rainmaker is the latest speaker in the Totem line apart from the Tribe. It replaces the Rokk which was a fantastic speaker but for which the drivers became unavailable after 20 years. The Rainmaker is a fine speaker but it's still not a patch on the Model-1. The Model-1 was recently revised to become the Model-1 Signature. It's reputedly much improved. If you must go for a small floorstander, then the Hawk is the one in this company and at this price. It's a very little wider than the Arro, same height give or take an inch and wallops the Arro into a cocked hat in terms of performance. Alternatively, there's the Forest which is a magnificent speaker, more akin to the Model-1 presentation since it also uses a Dynaudio main drive unit, but it has bass, lots of it! Again a bit wider than the Hawk and similar height, but the price is kicking up now. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4973 Registered: Dec-04 | SIDEBAR...I love it when Frank types like a Limey. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 1154 Registered: Mar-05 | Frank, FYI yes the frame of the stands are wood, but that is 3/4" ply screwed together only 7" wide and 9" deep 24" high. This box is then laminated with counter top material and mass loaded with 30lbs of sand. A very sturdy platform to be sure and because of the thing being filled to the brim with sand, no resonances. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4976 Registered: Dec-04 | I'd hate to see them moved! My wifes back would hurt for day's! That sounds sturdy enough. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 45 Registered: Nov-06 | Frank, should I choose a pair of Hawks as the rear speakers, would the Model-1 Signiture center remain the center of choice, the best match between the two? thanks, John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 46 Registered: Nov-06 | Also, does anyone know what the retail price range is on the Model-1 Signiture center, in Canada? thanks, John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 47 Registered: Nov-06 | Hello everyone. The local Totem dealer has a boxing week special on the Totem Hawks (and I think I'm going to pick up a pair, today). My question is: does it matter if I buy system pieces of the surround sound speakers, one at a time, as I can afford them, or is it better to buy them all at once, so they break in simultaneously? thanks, John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 48 Registered: Nov-06 | Happy New Year, everyone! I wish you all the best, in 07! John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 49 Registered: Nov-06 | Next question: I placed an order today for a pair of Totem Hawks. I will eventually use these as the rear speakers. Once Regnar has the proper shipping crates (march), I'll send in the Dahlquists, for rebuilding. And, my next purchase will be the Outlaw 990 prepro, thanks to Nuck's suggestion, so I'll soon have quality audio back in my life! Now, I'm faced with wiring all this stuff together! Wow! I'd like balanced XLR cables for the prepro/amp x 5, a good quality pair of speaker wires for my main speakers (DQ 10's) and for the rears, as I'll need about 28', I thought this company has a nice offering in the Canare 4S11 cable: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm This appears a nice bi-wire, that works out to 7 guage cable and is relatively inexpensive (any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated). Otherwise, I've seen the prices for these things all over the map, from hundreds to literally thousands of dollars!!! Yikes!!! If anyone can help, I'd certainly appreciate any and all info.. thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5080 Registered: Dec-04 | Hi again, John, thank you for the well wishes. The bluejeans cables are fully sufficient. Thousands of dollars might expose their investment worthiness on a 100k stereo, on normal stuff, no. IMHO. However, an investment should be made, there is also this one. http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~umsefton/cables/htm/materials.html Chord makes good stuff, ask Art or Frank A. Speaker leads are easier. For a 30' run, 14g bire is lots for your power. I had 25' runs of Liberty 4x14g cable(in white) for my setup, to facilitate placing the speakers and ran max power without issues. I shortened the runs by 10' for wire upstairs, and it works well there, too(in twisted pairs). 12g rip cord from Home Depot is natch. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 50 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks, Nuck for providing some direction. Where did you get the Liberty cable? thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5084 Registered: Dec-04 | I grabbed it at London Audio. Cheap, like 80c a foot. It may be considered moderate, but I havn't found a difference between the Liberty and a Kimber 8c on my kit, with my ears. Btw, John, I ran over 200wpc on 25' of cable, hehehe. The same type cable is available at electrics wholesalers, I will look up the numbers, if you like, but it will be tomorrow. BTW, have you seen my thread 'first correct answer' in amps? I thought you might find it. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 51 Registered: Nov-06 | Nuck, any time is fine ... don't worry, I'm in no rush. Still need the major components and to figure out how I'm going to locate it all. No, I didn't, as I'm a bit overwhelmed by all these choices, but will check it out now. thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1475 Registered: Jun-05 | I cant agree with that,the Rainmaker is knowhere near the Arro,its a fundamentally flawed design,with lots of cabinet resonances and a 100 htz. midbass hump with a hollow midrange with tipped up highs,its the 1 Totem that i think is poorly designed and overpriced.The Hawk is a very versatile speaker,and it doesent reqiure the care of setup as the Arros do and its not as revealing,and its certainly not as detailed,but i think in your situation it may be the best choice it is a very good speaker and it doesent need steller gear to bring it out,modest gear will work good with the Hawk,because its very forgiving.With superior electronics the Rainmaker or the Hawk cant match the Arros performance and emotion. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 52 Registered: Nov-06 | Now you tell me, just hours after I place the order! John |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1478 Registered: Jun-05 | No,no,no the Hawk is a very good choice,I like the Hawks quite a bit,they sound good and rich and warm,with deep deep bass.You will be able to enjoy them right out of the box with any electronics,they are very forgiving for a speaker with this caliber of performance and they still improve with better electronics,they just dont need it like the Arros do.The Arro can have you spending lots of money going thru upgrades,its fun to hear all the differences but ultimately it could be expensive.The Hawk is a fine fine speaker,and its one of the easiest high quality speakers to love,Congrats you made a fine choice you will be very pleased! |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 53 Registered: Nov-06 | Tawaun, it's alright; I made the decision carefully and over a period of exactly one month, to the day. I understand what you like about the Arro's; but, to me, they're exceptional within a more limited range, lacking in other areas. They are, without doubt, impressive, but perhaps not the ideal choice for my application. In any case, the decision's been made. Time will now complete the tale. Thanks for responding, John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5089 Registered: Dec-04 | Tawaun, lets remember that the chap has the Anthem A5 amp at his dispatch... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1555 Registered: May-05 | John, You did a great job in selecting your speakers. They'reprobably the perfect solution to your needs. Don't look back, forward, or sideways and second guess your self. As Hannibal from the A-Team would say, "I love it when a plan comes together." |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1480 Registered: Jun-05 | He's right the Arros are somewhat limited and hard to get that magic,once you find its amazing,but for your situation the Hawk is the perfect choice as Nuck just reminded me that nice powerful Anthem you have will suffice very well,your in for a real good time,enjoy! |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 54 Registered: Nov-06 | Stu, thanks for the positive reinforcement. Yes, I think the Hawks will be a good choice, as I discovered the bottom end of the DQ 10's is 40hz, while the Hawk's is potentially down to 29hz. I tend not to second-guess. I felt only that Tawaun should have shared his input the day before I made my choice, rather than a couple hours later. It makes no difference, though. As I said, I understand the love and desire for the Arros, as the DQ10's already share many of these same qualities and then some. Tawaun ... no worries and thanks ... I can't wait. I'm getting so excited that I actually had trouble falling asleep, last night! lol A good sign, I think. Thank you all. John |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1776 Registered: Sep-04 | John, Sorry, but I've been away for a week... In my opinion, the Hawk is a far better speaker to the Arro in pretty much every respect. (Sorry Tawaun but I must disagree with you it seems.) The Hawk has better contrast, resolution, pace, grip and PR&T - and it goes deeper with more ease than the Arro. I'm not trying to knock the Arro, but the Hawk is in the next level up from the Arro for performance in my view. I'd be interested to see what you thought of the Hawk as your main speaker! On the subject of cable, as I'm in the UK I can't recommend easily since this depends on local availability. Here's a few pointers to bear in mind. The whole point of surround sound is to build as uniform a soundfield as possible. The soundfield is affected by all kinds of things including cables. Therefore the easiest solution is to have the same cable all the way around. Ideally, they should even be the same length in order to offer exactly the same impedance characteristics to the amplifiers in your receiver. That's taking things to the limit, but we find that: 1) keeping all 3 front cables the same length does seem to make the soundfield less obvious 2) if the rears would be too expensive, then choose a lesser cable by the same brand you're using at the front. At least the presentation should not change significantly, aiding the illusion of the soundfield. 3) Single wiring with the same cable will be better than biwiring with an inferior cable 4) If you choose not to biwire, then whip out the stock brass biwire plates and fit wire links, preferably of the same choice as your speaker cable. To answer your earlier question, I'm not sure whether the Rainmaker Centre is a better match for the Hawks than the Model-1 Centre. I suspect the better match would be the Model-1 but you should check with Totem. the fact is that neither centre uses the main driver in the Hawk. The Rainmaker one uses the same drivers as in the Rainmaker and the Model-1 Centre uses the same drivers as in the Model-1. In the absence of a perfect match I'd plump for the better quality of the Model-1 Centre, especially since Totem themselves recommended it as the best match for the DQ-10s. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 55 Registered: Nov-06 | Frank, No need to apologize and I hope you enjoyed your time off! I carefully thought through the decision and so I'm not unsure about it. If anything, I'm all excited and can't wait to receive the speakers. I'll place the order for the pre/pro, sometime this week. So, by the end of the month, I should have something to listen to! Frank, that's certainly valuable information regarding the wiring choices. I've decided that my first step is to gather all the equipment and place it in the room, then take some measurements and then decide on wires. I understand the equal wire length concept, but given the rears are about 28' from the amp, it would mean quite a spool of wire for the front three speakers (hence your advice on the front three of equal length, as a practical compromise). Valuable information, Frank; thank you! Yes, you're right about the model-1 signature center as this is the one that Totem has recommended. I'm taking my time, though, and am focusing now only on the amp, pre-pro and Hawk arrangement. Then, when Regnar has the proper shipping crates, off go the DQ 10's and when I receive them, I'll purchase the center. I'm all excited, to say the least! Again, thanks for your guidance and all the best in the new year !!! Sincerely, John |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1787 Registered: Sep-04 | You're welcome John, Just remember to run in those Hawks when they turn up. All Totems need running in and the Hawk is no exception. At least you'll have some decent sounds while waiting for the DQs to get rebuilt, and the amp/speakers should be run in by the time the DQs get pressed into service. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 56 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks, Frank & I will take it easy. I'll likely never abuse or really crank the system; too many things in the living room to shake, fall and break! They phoned about an hour ago and my speakers are in. I placed the order for the 990 this morning. Soon ... music once again! I can't wait! Again, thank you! John |
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New member Username: KompressorB.C. Canada Post Number: 4 Registered: Jan-07 | Wow that was a little bit of reading. Congrats on the purchase of the Totems John. I listened to the Arros and Sttaf's(Hawks were too much $) and finally decided on the Sttaf's. I agree the Arros sounded fantastic but seemed limited in the bass extention. I found the Sttaf's to be an all around better choice for music and movies, for me anyway. After the run in period (60 - 80 hrs)I am amazed how deep the bass is becomming. I have a Paradigm PS 1000 sub that I have had for about 5 yrs and when I run the Sttaf's without the sub, there is not a lot of difference in the bass extention. What I do find is the bass is tighter with the Sttaf's alone. Please post what you think of the Hawks after some listening time. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 57 Registered: Nov-06 | Kompressor, thanks! I just brought the Hawks home. If these things sound as half as good as they look, I know I'm going to be pleased. It'll be a few weeks, yet, before I get the remaining equipment; but I will certainly keep everyone posted. Thank you, all! John |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA USA Post Number: 1218 Registered: Mar-05 | What finish did you get? I think Totem does a fantastic job on their veneers, I got the mahoghany. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 58 Registered: Nov-06 | Joseph, I picked the Cherry finish, to compliment my furniture. Years ago, I built my tables, with Cherry trim and the speakers match beautifully. Certainly, aesthetically, they're top notch. My poor old DQ 10's won't stand a chance, in the beauty department! John |
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New member Username: KompressorB.C. Canada Post Number: 7 Registered: Jan-07 | Joseph, I got the mahoghany as well. build quality is second to none, I just love the look and finish. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA USA Post Number: 1222 Registered: Mar-05 | Here's mine with the custom stands in the HT room  |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 59 Registered: Nov-06 | Joseph, beauty setup. All the finishes are attractive and well crafted. I think it just depends on what fits your decor, or suits your taste, best. Nice spot for the center channel. I have a thin plasma and so I'm not sure how I'm going to set it up. More planning required. thanks for sharing & enjoy your system! John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 60 Registered: Nov-06 | Joseph, your custom stands, where are they? Your Hawks appear to sit on the carpet and I assume this is why you haven't used the bearing supports? Have you tried with and without, bearing supports, and if so, does it make any difference? John |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA USA Post Number: 1229 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL, deceiving huh? Those are Rainmakers on custom stands made from Laminate and mass loaded with 30lbs of sand in each. Thats why the finish looks a little different. The color is the same but the way the veneer reflects light it makes it look different. They must look pretty good if you mistook them for Hawks!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 61 Registered: Nov-06 | Oh, I see, they're beautiful! I see now why you're so proud of them. No, I didn't notice the separation (but, to be fair, I wear tri-focals! lol). Your cabinet makers did an amazing job. Very cool ... I'm impressed! John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 62 Registered: Nov-06 | Frank and everyone, I'm looking at XLR cables and came across these: http://www.bestdealcables.com/LineList.aspx?LineID=20 Does anyone have any experience with these cables and/or thoughts about them? Also, for speaker wires, I came across this offer, for the Flatline MKII's: http://www.audiofederation.com/dealership/prices/nordost/index2.htm Has anyone any thoughts or experience with these? Are they a good deal? Also, given that 5.1 systems require greater speaker wire runs for the rears, I've been told that it's not a bad idea to keep the front three speaker wires the same length and type. I'm fairly certain that in rebuilding the Dahlquist DQ 10's, while the binding posts are exchanged for new ones, they are not bi-wired. Should I choose to follow through with the purchase and inclusion of the Model-1 Signature Center (which is bi-wired, as are the Hawks, which will be in the rear), how, then, should I choose speaker wire for the front three? Since the main speakers, DQ 10's, will not accept bi-wiring, should I, then, wire all five speakers with a pair, rather than with bi-wire and keep the front lengths the same? And, should I choose to do this, what would you all think of the Flat-line MKII speaker cable as the cable to use for all five applications, in a single pair run (not bi-wired)? Also, please keep in mind, at 6 ohms, I think the amp rates at something like 260 watts, rms (this shouldn't be a problem for these Flat-line MKII speaker cables; should it?) . Any and all information appreciated. thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5159 Registered: Dec-04 | John, if you actually use 260wpc, you are a better man than I. Huh? Pardon me? Kidding. Anything you bi-wire is simply converted to single by doubling up the termination at the single pole speakers. Bi-wiring is not going to make or break a speakers sound. It may, to some degree, attenuate some harshness or smooth out the highs. Try it and find out! That goes back to my suggestion for less expensive wire(liberty) for a trial, as you wont be out much. Not like you are going to throw it out! Maybe try biwire at the front in lengths long enough to service the rears, and decide from there. Use the single runs later for the Totems in the rear. Or buy 100' and bi-wire the rears with that. The rears aren't that critical in HT IMHO. You will be so far removed from them for music, while enjoying your DQ's, it matters little. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1799 Registered: Sep-04 | Joseph, All those speakers! Are you sure you have enough? FWIW, the proximity of the speakers is most probably having an effect on the sound. This is most usually a smearing in the time domain giving the system a slower response with less 'snap'. While your Rainmakers are playing music, go up to the speakers next to one of them and place your hand on one of the main drive units of the speaker next to the playing rainmaker. You will feel it vibrating away in sympathy. These may seem like small vibrations but they do have an effect on the sound. Try simple things like covering the fronts of the non-playing speakers with their grilles or, even better, some card or wood and see how this affects the soundstage and the timing. It's not expensive to try. Needless to say, the Rainmakers will also affect the HT system when it's in operation. However, their effect will be less and HT is less timing dependant than music. But once again, you can try damping the Rainmakers... John, Can't help you with those particular leads I'm afraid. I don't know the brand. Typically my recommendation is to single wire with a better cable rather than biwire with a worse cable. The worse cable may bring benefits with biwiring since it halves the impedance, but it has more faults inherent in the cable than the better cable typically. If you single-wire, I strongly recommend you take out the links between the biwire terminals of the Hawks and use little links made of the same wire you're using to go to the rear. Also plug the positive lead into the high frequency positive terminal and the negative lead into the low frequency negative terminal, as prescribed by Totem. In terms of the cables, go with the same lengths of the same cable across the front. If the rears would be too expensive to cable up this way, go with a cheaper alternative from the same brand in order to keep to the same presentation style (check that the lower-order cable maintains the same presentation). That's it. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA USA Post Number: 1236 Registered: Mar-05 | Thank you for the advice Frank, I am sure they have an affect (the JBL's) on my music setup. Not too worried about HT since it's like you said, not as critical. I will try what you said about the grille's but I will not leave them because they vibrate too much with HT operation. Plus I prefer the sound of the JBL's without grilles. The one thing I would love to do is move this music setup into my office, but I have to build another bookcase first. Needs to match the cherry thats in there now since they will be sold with the house when we move. Anyway for now since it's not the highest end setup out there by any means, I will probably deal with this. I did move them away further than I had them after reading an article Jan put up about soundstage. I am sure the further away they are from each other the better. The stands definitely are not vibrating at all with all that sand and how they are constructed, but thanks again for the comments and yes that maybe enough speakers......for that room. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 63 Registered: Nov-06 | Frank, thank you for your recommendations. I will follow them as best I can. Another ten days and I should at least be listening to the Hawks; can't wait! Again, thank you! John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 64 Registered: Nov-06 | Hello everyone. I finally have all the equipment to drive my new Hawks, including a set of bi-wires. The amazing part is that the terminals on the back of the Hawks are not marked positive and negative. How do I differentiate? Also, given I have bi-wires, do I remove the attached pairs of wires, between terminals, for the full bi-wire effect? thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3937 Registered: Feb-05 | "do I remove the attached pairs of wires, between terminals, for the full bi-wire effect?" Yes. Someone who has Totems will have to answer the other question. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 65 Registered: Nov-06 | Art, thanks! I figured out the positive and negative terminals, as one pair have a burgundy ring around the lower, recessed part of the binding posts and given the finish is Cherry, it wasn't obvious. I left the wires, for the time being. Does it really make much of a difference? Could not the cross wires actually help smooth out the signal? These speakers are beautiful. It'll be some time before I can really listen to them, obviously, given the break-in period, but I can already tell that they're far more efficient than my old DQ 10's, yet with decent base. I have to turn the volume way down to get it to low listening levels. Just how the pre/pro is going to balance the efficiency of these speakers, with my old and inefficient DQ 10's will be something to behold. I hope the 990's up to it. I thank everyone for the help in this project and I'll write more, as I experience this new joy. Again, thanks. John |
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Bronze Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 25 Registered: Feb-07 | how much do the totem arros go for??? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5791 Registered: Dec-04 | Excellent, John. While the Totems are running in, why not just leave the wiring as is? After you become accustomed to your sound, perfect the placement, possibly treat your space(hey a little decorating) and so on, then try the bi-wire. It may or may not be noticeable. But getting a comfortable baseline would help you determine that, I think. Congrats again. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 66 Registered: Nov-06 | Nuck, thanks for the response and excellent idea. I beleive I will follow through, leave as is and sometime in the future, remove the wiring. The sound, even from the FM radio, is amazing! Again, thanks. John |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1917 Registered: Sep-04 | John, IIRC, looking at the back of the speaker, positive is on the right and negative is on the left. That said, the easy way to test this is to simply try them one way with some music with drums in it and then try them the other way with the same piece of music. Whichever way sounds louder is the correct way to set them, reason being that the one with more impact means the main drive unit is pushing the air rather than pulling it. It's VERY important to make sure both sides are wired up the same way! It's one thing for the speakers to be wired out of absolute phase (i.e. red to black and vice versa) and quite another for them to be out of phase with each other which is a real mess. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 67 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks Frank, I appreciate the input and explanation. I'm happy to say that Hawks are performing, beautifully. I have only 15 hours on them and so I listen at low volume, but am enjoying every moment! Again, thanks for all your help! John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5853 Registered: Dec-04 | Enjoy, John. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 68 Registered: Nov-06 | Thank you, Nuck. John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 69 Registered: Nov-06 | Greetings everyone! Well, I have the Hawks nearly broken in and so I've been playing a little more. These are, indeed, nice speakers and overall, I'm pleased with the purchase. They will certainly suit my needs for surround rears. Also, the base is nice; it exists (as compared to my experience with the Arros, which seemed to be lacking, in this department). Unfortunately, my Panasonic S29 DVD/CD player is certainly showing its weaknesses. While the video quality is amazing, for 480p, the audio is terrible, even with my best cd's. So, I'll be looking for a replacement. Also, I'm just now arranging to have my DQ 10's shipped, for the rebuild; it'll be six to eight weeks before they're returned. Nevertheless, I've been thinking about purchasing the speaker cables, ahead of time, so I don't have to wait as long as I did the last time. I purchased Canare cables and am pleased with the overall quality. My question is this: the rears require 30' of speaker cable. The front three would suffice with 15' lengths; however, the cost of purchasing the front three, at the same 30' length is not that much more. So, should I have all five, speaker cables the same length? The other variable is that the speakers are not the same, the fronts, rears and center, all different. Any and all info, appreciated. thanks, John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5973 Registered: Dec-04 | Dear John; I just had to! The length of cabling will not matter, John, IMHO. The Center channell could be matched type and length, but it's splitting hairs. The rears do not matter. A lot of theory and elegance in the hobby are so overwrought that it becomes oppulance. A lot of banter we toss around is really symantics and physics, and doesn't matter to everyone. But it does to you. My banter says it will not matter, I vote for whatever you want. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 70 Registered: Nov-06 | Dear Nuck, you've come to know me well, to know that I live in a constant state of confusion, always seeking perfection and as such, as you say, you just couldn't resist, had to add to the pot! lol So, keeping them the same length really doesn't matter, then? I'm all for saving a few bucks, if it doesn't. By the way, I'm very pleased with the Outlaw 990 and am amazed by its power and versatility. I have you to thank for this! So, Thank You! John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5975 Registered: Dec-04 | I am sure Frank will come along as well John. Has your noise issue improved? |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 71 Registered: Nov-06 | The noise is still there, but now that the volume is higher, it doesn't matter as much. I need a second and objective opinion. John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5981 Registered: Dec-04 | When I get around there, John, I will offer my opinion, if you would like. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 72 Registered: Nov-06 | Sure, Nuck, let me know when you're around and come on over! My guess is that it's a weakness in the transformer. At least it's quieter than my 4B was. John |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4140 Registered: Feb-05 | Keep the front 3 speaker cables the same length as each other and the rear 2 the same as each other, it doesn't matter that the rears and fronts don't match. That's my vote. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1947 Registered: Sep-04 | After thinking this through I've come to the conclusion that I think there wouldn't be a significant difference in having different lengths for centre and rears to those of the fronts. Normally I insist that the centre has the same length as the fronts since I get better results that way in balanced systems. However, in your case, you are using an unbalanced system in that the centre is not directly matched to your fronts. therefore you will have to play around with receiver setup a bit more to ensure you get the best integration. Rears are almost always further away so their longer cables are quasi-obligatory. If possible, make them the same lengths as each other. Also, it's preferable if the cable is the same model. If this is too expensive, then use cable from the same brand in a bid to maintain the same presentation. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 73 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks Art and Frank. I think there isn't much difference in price, between the 15' and 30' lengths, given the price is offset by the cost of the gold plated banana plugs. So, I will ask and make the decision based on price. I'm thinking that, on the one hand, it doesn't matter; but, on the other hand, given the speakers are not all the same, perhaps it would help if I keep the other variables constant. Then, again, maybe Nuck is correct and it doesn't matter, at all. So, if there's not much difference in price, I'll go equal length and if there is, I'll choose the shorter length, for the front three. Again, thank you! John |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 74 Registered: Nov-06 | An update, Well, I crossed the 150 hr threshold, today, the break-in period for the Totem Hawks. As such, I thought I'd put them through a few paces, to get a better feel for what they're capable of. Before doing so, I removed the bridge wires, between terminals, as I have them bi-wired. I'm sure we're all familiar with the experience of washing, waxing and polishing the car, only to discover, afterwards, that the car drives more smoothly, is faster, handles better and seems an altogether new experience? Well, I'm not sure if this is how it is with the Hawks, but when I removed the bridge wires, there seemed to be a definite and noticeable difference in the performance of the speakers. Is it purely subject? I honestly don't know, but I can say that, overall, I'm pleased with my choice and thank everyone here for their guidance and support. I have a few old classical cds, some analogue recordings, digitally re-mastered and a few that are digitally recorded (these are next). I've listened to Mazeppa and Lizst's Hungarian Rhapsody #2 and 4. What can I say, the performance of these speakers, with the Outlaw 990 (thank you Nuck) and my Anthem Statement A5, is a joy to experience. I'm sure there are all kinds of descriptors: warm, accurate, responsive and impressive, considering their size and the rather innocent and benign appearance of the Hawks. I'm not accustomed to putting my impressions of a listening experience into words; but suffice it to say, I'm not sorry I purchased these speakers. And, I also sense that they're still tight, that in time, they will open even more (ok, like a passionate and eager new lover ... wishful thinking! lol). It is difficult to compare the Hawks to my DQ10's, because I'm currently using a very inexpensive DVD player to play the cd's and also the pre/pro and amp are entirely different than my previous DQ setup, with Bryston 4B. The DQ 10 listening experience was more powerful and moving, given the fact that ten drivers are involved, a pair of which are horns. Nevertheless, my sense of it is, so far, that the Hawks will be more than adequate as a compliment to the DQ 10's, as rear/surround speakers. I can't tell you how eager I am to complete the surround sound package. I watched "Pulp Fiction" last night and "All the King's Men," the night before. Unfortunately, it'll be a couple of months, yet, before the DQ 10's are returned. So, I guess that's it for now. I'll keep you all posted, for those that are still interested and for those that have helped, again, I thank you all! Sincerely, John P.s. ... the Outlaw 990 has 21 Dolby digital presets; I can't get over the power and sophisitcation of this thing. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6017 Registered: Dec-04 | Lots o' buttons, lot's o' capability, in stereo, John. Glad you like it. If you have a chance. please review the 990, with your stereo/HT in mind. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 75 Registered: Nov-06 | Greeting everyone! I thought I'd just provide a simple update. While I broke-in the Totem Hawks, for a period of 150 hours, at low volume, I'm discovering that they're still in the process of maturing. Perhaps I should have had the volume a little higher during that first 150 hours, but there's been a definite and noticeable improvement in the quality of the sound from these speakers, as time flows. The bass is now stronger and there's also a noticeable improvement in the balance between the lows and the highs. Given, also, the size of the 5" woofer, I'm amazed at the bass these Hawks are able to produce. I'd definitely recommend these speakers to anyone willing to make the investment. And, good news on the Dahlquists; the shipping cartons are on their way and so by the end of May, beginning of June, I should have them rebuilt, returned and installed. Overall, I'm very pleased, so far and again, I thank you all for your collective guidance and wisdom. John |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA USA Post Number: 1391 Registered: Mar-05 | I love Totem's lineup. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1153 Registered: Oct-04 | Great thread, learned a lot about the Totem line. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 76 Registered: Nov-06 | Happy Easter, everyone! Just thought I'd add another note. The Totem Hawks are now into the beginning of their third month of use and they're still getting better. The bass is deeper now, the flow and harmony of the sound, smoother, more integrated and definitely richer, warmer. If it's taken this long to break them in, I can only imagine these beauties offering optimum performance for many years, yet to come. I'm certainly not disappointed in my choice. And, I can't wait to hear the completed HT project. I have now the shipping boxes for the DQ10's, will be shipping this week. So, sometime in June, I'll have the speaker component complete. Also, initially, I had only the Outlaw 990 prepro, without all the necessary XLR cables. I had an old pair of Sony MDR CD550 headphones and used them to listen to the tuner and to watch TV. I was so pleased by the experience, that I've since purchased a pair of AKG K701's and am now contemplating a headphone amp. This hobby sure can hook you! Hope you're all enjoying the weekend! John |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2029 Registered: Sep-04 | Happy Easter John! Glad to hear the Hawks are still doing it for you. They really do take a long time to really come on song - there's probably still some left to go. Keep us informed - very interested to see what happens since this is all partly my fault. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrjPost Number: 77 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks, Frank, I will. The gradual change, in the sound of these speakers, amazes me. Audio technology has changed and improved, in subtle ways, over the past 20/30 years and I'm joyfully experiencing it! Will keep you posted and again, thanks. John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6747 Registered: Dec-04 | Keep the plugs dry, John. |
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