Today tested NAD-C352 and NAD-C325BEE
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New member Username: ArgolPost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-06 | Good evening. I'm planning to buy a amp+cd but have limited means. I read some reviews about the C352. Some good, others not at all. But found few info about the C325BEE. I thought C352+C542 could be the right couple so today I went to my local HiFi shop and listened to both: NAD-C325BEE and NAD-C352 - source: NAD-C542 - speakers: Rowen R1 - music : Pergolesi - Stabat Mater (Andreas Scholl and Barbara Bonney) track 5 I noticed a BIG difference between these 2 amps. C325BEE : I found it clear, precise, musical, good mediums. But with a lack of highs and basses. C352 : Was loud. Powerful. But it sounded a bit harsh to me. Mediums: not really present. Basses: deep but imprecise. Highs: Unpleasent. A powerful amp but not good for the kind of music I like. What could be nice is: the power of the C352 and the musicality of the C325BEE :-) I didn't hear to the C372. Do you know if the C372 is something totally different or just a C352 with more power? Is it more precise then the C352? Is there any other good amp for the price out there? What about DENON-PMA1500AE et DCD-1500AE? |
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New member Username: JurePost Number: 2 Registered: Mar-06 | Thomas, maybe you can try Rotel RA-1062. It has power and detail. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 925 Registered: Nov-05 | That description doesn't sound like the C352 to me. I wonder if it had a problem. |
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New member Username: ArgolPost Number: 4 Registered: Nov-06 | It seams that I am not the only one with that opinion about NAD-C352. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/120475.html What was obvious to me was the poor quality of highs. And of course not present/clear mediums. I went back to the HiFi shop today, and made another try : - source: NAD-C542 - speakers: Rowen R1 and PSB - music : Pergolesi - Stabat Mater (Andreas Scholl and Barbara Bonney) track 5 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00001IVQN Obvious problems in highs (harsh) after: 0min 34 sec. and then 1 min 26 sec The problem was not noticeable with NAD-C325BEE. I tried a NAIM system with same Speakers : perfect highs, Scholl's voice was crystal-clear This track is pretty good for testing as it has medium to high voices, and of course instruments. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4553 Registered: Dec-04 | Thomas, whch Psb's did you Audition? Obviously you found a big difference in the Nad offerings, but these observations seen to be a bit out of line with other poster's experiences. I would like to here more from your listening. Have you heard the 172/272 combo? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4554 Registered: Dec-04 | The Psb line is a bit specific, I find(see my profile), I find the i-line a bit limited, particularly the Stratus silver. The b series (B25 particularly) is a good one, although, unfortunatly, the best of the line. Psb has seen better days. I would look for a better combo, myself, the Nad should be much better than yu have described. Perhaps the fresh Paradigm Studio 20v4 would work well. Nad and Paradigm are a tight group. |
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Bronze Member Username: Jingka99Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur Malaysia Post Number: 33 Registered: Aug-06 | As my experience with NAD C352 is nowhere near your description of it, I would assume that synergy and equipment matching could be the issue here...but then again, PSB and NAD normally blend well... |
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New member Username: ArgolPost Number: 5 Registered: Nov-06 | I've been through the forum: there 2-3 people who experienced the same problems with high and mediums. As explained above I made different tests, and always with the same CD and track. 1) C352 + C542 + Rowen: strident highs and mediums not very present 2) C352 + C542 + PSB: strident highs (maybe a bit less) and mediums not very present 3) C325BEE + C542 + Rowen: equilibrated , musical, but lack of basses 4) C325BEE + C542 + PSB : equilibrated , musical, but lack of basses 5) Naim System + Rowen : very nice!!! My conclusion: C352 may be perfect for modern music, but for the kind I listen to it is far from being perfect. (I used my Sennheiser HD595 as the reference sound). C325BEE is cheaper, lacks basses but has a nice and clear sound. It is not easy to find a good and affordable system, especially when you like a certain kind of music :-( |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4556 Registered: Dec-04 | Thomas, again, which Psb speakers were you using for comparison, please? |
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New member Username: ArgolPost Number: 6 Registered: Nov-06 | Sorry. PSB Alpha T1 What about the C372 is just a more powerfull C352 or other different amp? There is a good review here : http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/nad_c372.htm I don't know if I need all that power... I like to listen music in low to moderated volume. What I like is something equilibrated, clear and analytical. Not easy... |
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Bronze Member Username: Jingka99Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur Malaysia Post Number: 34 Registered: Aug-06 | Hi Thomas, I think you've made your point, it looks like C352 is not suitable for you and for the kind of music you like....You've also pointed that Naim appeals to you more and I say go with what you think will give you listening pleasure...I agree with you that it's not easy to find system that would match your musical taste...it takes time and a lot of researching but the best thing is still to trust your own ears and not the reviews nor the experiences of others... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4559 Registered: Dec-04 | Hmm..lower volume...clear and analytical...I have not heard the Rowan speakers you reference, Thomas, but you added a great name at the very end of a post. Naim. The 5 amp is great for low volumes, even for 'low' the speakers had best be fairly efficient. The 5i covers this...shortcoming? quite nicely, while still being'conservative' in nature. The cd player, cd5i or cd5x can deliver stunning clarity and accuracy, and when paired with the 5i via the superb quality cables, SUPPLIED!, the guess work is eliminated there. If you had not considered the research and cost of good interconnects, please assume this is good advise'out of the box'. You have, in fact, written a wish list for a Naim Nait ad. Go listen again, with your fav cd's. I think Stu here on the Forum is as knowlegeable as anyone on Naim.Oh and Frank Abella as well(big fan). Seek them out for the best info. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1513 Registered: May-05 | The Naim Nait 5i will wipe the floor with any other amp you've mentioned. Then again it costs $1425 compared to $400 (Nait 5i vs 325BEE), so they shouldn't be mentioned in the same conversation, for all intents and purposes. The Naim gear should give you just about everything you appear to be looking for. Also, have you looked into Rotel? Rotel and Paradigm or B&W may be a combo that you like. My only objection is the term "clinical." I look at this as a negative term. To me "clinical" means overly analytical to the point of making music boring. Hopefully you just mean it as what I like to think of as articulate. I think your problem with the NADs is a synergy problem. I've heard just about everything NAD has made in the last 10-15 years, and have never one thought it was harsh or strident. I own a 320BEE and must say that everything the 320BEE does, the 352 does much better. Many people think the 352 is their best integrated (before the new M series came out anyway). If anything, NAD generally gets criticized for being a little too warm and/or polite. The PSB speakers you listened through are the weakness. The Alpha series isn't very good. Then again, they're the bottom of the line and didn't have the 352 in mind when they were being designed. Try the Image series, as Nuck illuded to and their will be a big difference. I run my 320BEE with a pair of Image T55's. They are probably the best balanced tower speaker in the Image line, and my favorite under $1000 floorstander. The synergy with the 320BEE is very good. I've heard the 352 with them many times, and it's a lot better. They are not bright or harsh at all, and have a solid bottom end that the B25 bookshelf simply can't do. If you have the money, by all means, get the Naim system. Their's really no comparison, but again, any comparison is unfair to either company. Also, Nuck mentioned Naim cabling. Naim traditionally uses DINs, which are similar to XLR. The free cable that comes with them are far superior to just about any RCA cable, regardless of price. I think Frank Abela tried some $1K + RCAs (he's a part time dealer), and they barely beat the free cable Naim includes with their sources. Sorry, a lot of information. If you're serious about the NAD gear, you should really try to hear it with PSB image speakers, preferably towers if you need bass, or Paradigm Studio series speakers. If they're still harsh or strident, NAD definately isn't for you. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1514 Registered: May-05 | Nuck, The best Naim expert here is Frank Abela. Except for the dealer, he taught me most of what I know. He's the Grand Master. I'm just his Grasshopper. |
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Bronze Member Username: NoutPost Number: 16 Registered: Mar-06 | C352 : Was loud. Powerful. But it sounded a bit harsh to me. Mediums: not really present. Basses: deep but imprecise. Highs: Unpleasent. It is true NAD's treble isn't restrained...well at least it is not my experience with this amp, but I wouldn't call its treble strident. A powerful amp but not good for the kind of music I like. You like classical? I cannot think of one classical cd that will sound harsh or aggressive on any amp...the only time I experience harshness it is with pop or rock music, but then it is often supposed to sound like that, it adds to the excitement...well according to many people, it is not necessarily my kind of excitement... Classical music is mostly very good recorded, so it does suprise me you find the NAD C352 harsh with this music. That said, I didn't find NAD's treble that sweet and restrained also. What about DENON-PMA1500AE et DCD-1500AE? Denon's PMA 1500AE is wonderful, a huge sound, strong bass...but its treble isn't smoother than NAD's. Still I would check this amp, it may be a system matching issue as said by some in this thread. I'm still happy with a Marantz PM 7200. Especially classical music is great, detailed though smooth midds and highs. I'm not sure the PM 7200 is still sold, it has a successor the PM 7001 which I haven't heard. You may want to add Marantz on your playlist. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3657 Registered: Feb-05 | The PM7001 isn't nearly as good as the PM7200. Too bad as it really looks nice :-). |
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New member Username: ArgolPost Number: 7 Registered: Nov-06 | Good Evening, First thank you for all your posts and experience sharing. Please excuse my poor English. It's not easy to talk about music; music is not about words. I meant analytical, not clinical :-) I was a tired I suppose (as I am just now...) - Stu Pitt , Nuck : Thank you very much for your suggestions. It'll sure help me. I'll test again the NAD-C352+NAD-C542 with the PSB speakers you mentioned; They should have them at my local shop. I'll also try NAD-C325BEE+NAD-C542. I'll use the same track for tests: Pergolesi - Stabat Mater (Andreas Scholl and Barbara Bonney) track 5. I'll give you feedback :-) Nota : unfortunately I don't have the money for Naim equipment. I'm a student. I chose NAD as I was told it is was the best in terms of price for quality. - Nout : Yes I generally listen to "classical" music. Ancient music, baroque, classic. Motets. Viola da Gamba, Cello : my favourite instruments. Holly music like the Vivaldi's or Pergolesi's Stabat Mater or Couperin's "Office des Ténebres". Etc.. That kind. I don't agree with you regarding the fact that "classical" music can't be strident. With certain equipment "classical" music may sound strident, especially soprano's voice. Try the CD I mentioned for tests, the first 5 tracks. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00001IVQN - Regarding the equipment: Did someone test the Rowen Swiss Edition of NAD's amps and cd players? French : http://www.dynavox.ch/fr/rse/rse.htm German : http://www.dynavox.ch/de/rse/rse.htm |
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Bronze Member Username: The13thgryphonSpokane, WA USA Post Number: 14 Registered: Jul-04 | Thomas, If you want much of the clarity, delicacy, impact, precision, tonal accuracy, pace and timing of the Naim equipment, but don't want to spend that kind of money, take a look at the Rega integrated amps. I very recently compared the Rega Mira 3 to the Naim Nait 5i. I was very favorably impressed with the Mira for what it did for $400 less. Rega also hase a "little brother" to the Mira, the Brio 3, that could be the one to float your boat. It runs somewhere in the $600 to $700 range, I believe. You might try to contact eCoustics member Frank Abela, as I believe he has direct information about the differences between the NAD C352 and the Rega Brio. |
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Bronze Member Username: AngelloPost Number: 60 Registered: Oct-05 | https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/172641.html |
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Bronze Member Username: RuvePost Number: 38 Registered: Mar-06 | Tom, both Nad 542 and Nad 352 are excellent pieces. But they may just not work well together. My experience is: either get a different pre-amp to replace the pre-section of Nad 352 or use a different CDP (trust me, actually something cheaper than 542 could bring in better results!). |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1823 Registered: Sep-04 | Hi there, My name's being mentioned too much so I'd better contribute... Stu, you're embarrassing me, but thanks for the kind words. Thomas, it's interesting that you did not find the Naim to be strident too. In the old days, Naim were often targetted as being bright. I guess they've come a long way. that said, I am surprised you think the NAD amp has a harsh treble. I know the C325BEE a bit now that I've played with it a couple of times and I agree that it is a very sweet sounding amplifier. I don't agree that it lacks anything in the bass. However, I can see that one could consider it to be a bit lean I guess. The 352 may not have the latest preamp section, but again, I have never thought of it as harsh. these results are strange because normally it is when an amp is being driven hard that it will show symptoms of either harshness or uncontrolled bass. This happens because it is either distorting or cannot really get a proper grip on the loudspeaker. Since the C325BEE is the lower powered of the two, this is the amplifier that should have sounded harsh if it were distorting. Perhaps it is simply that you prefer a warmer presentation than the NAD. The Naim is definitely a little bit (very little) warmer than the NAD. It's also a bit fuller in the mid-bass which gives the sense of drive and attack that the NAD seemed to lack. That said, at the same money as the NAD, you'll find it difficult to find another amplifier with as much drive as the NAD as well as power. The NADs are very well judged. I wonder if the results could have been caused by the cabling that was in use. If the dealerwas using QED or Black Rhodium interconnects I would expect the result to be a bit bright and shouty. They're good cables, just a touch on the bright side. I tend to use Chord Co. cables and they are a bit more neutral, verging on warm. As has already been mentioned by others, the Rega Brio is a fine amplifier with a similar presentation style to the Naim. It's not a Naim of course, but it is also an amplifier that majors on pace, rhythm and timing. The difference in my view is that the Rega presentation leans more toward the pace and timing whereas the Naim leans more toward rhythm. In the UK the Brio costs about the same as the C352. However, it does not have remote control but it comes with an excellent phono stage built in. It is well made and develops around 40wpc. The way it develops this power is such that it sounds more powerful than it is (same as the Naim's 50wpc seems like much more). This doesn't mean it will drive anything but it has more drive than many 'more powerful' amps.If you really liked the Naim and cannot stomach the price, consider the Rega. On the subject of cables, I would normally recommend Chord Co. interconnects with the Rega (and the C542 would be an excellent place to start with) and Rega's own or Naim speaker cable - Rega themselves recommend Naim cable in their manual. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1824 Registered: Sep-04 | On the subject of classical music recordings, there are many which are abysmal. Any early digital transfers from Deutsche Grammophon are pretty bad, even the DG 4D recordings aren't exactly brilliant. Some of the best labels are the Phillips Classical label (surprised? you should be), Naxos (very good value for money) and a few reissues courtesy of Classic Records or Impulse!. Naim also have a few excellent recordings, but their CDs are better than the records I think. Linn's records are pretty good too. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 429 Registered: Sep-04 | After speed reading through some of these posts, it's quite clear that the lesson we should heed is: That everyone hears things differently. Hi-fi is a personal pursuit. One has to gather evidence of the 'greatness' of a piece of equipment, remembering that people make biased comments, depending on their personal taste. But I can say - as the owner of the slightly older, C350, I would not, for one moment sniff at the chance of owning a C352! Of course, I'd have to hear it first... Then again, there are certain review sites which confer directly with my own experience. By sticking with these, it's a pretty safe bet they are telling me what I need to know about something I might intend to buy online, without an audition. And possibly, the MOST valuable lesson I've learned from this is: Never assume the next(or better) model up in the range, will actually sound better. They are all different. You're relying on the tastes of the designer and what he/she thinks is an improvement. I've seen a lot of people say they prefer their NAD C370 amps, to the newer C372 and still others who will never part with their old 3020s! V |
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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 430 Registered: Sep-04 | Also - the reason for the C325 sounding 'nicer' and more musical, might be in the fact I've heard it said, the BEE range are designed for people who are likely to use cheaper speakers. What's likely to have happened here, is that possibly, the BEEs have been modelled with 'colour' to sound better with speakers, which lie within the price bracket of the C320/325 BEE units. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it's a reasonable theory. V |
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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 431 Registered: Sep-04 | Yeah... and I've read the thread you're reading, too: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/120475.html What's interesting about this discussion, are the reasonable replies, which lean toward the contrary of the original poster. So it's worth reading CA-Convert's comments about drum kits, before assuming the amp doesn't sound right. Also, he says: Go with your ears and don't get hung up about fashion. Pretty good advice, in my humble opinion. V |
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Bronze Member Username: Carlos_mGreat YarmouthEngland Post Number: 57 Registered: Oct-06 | Hi Varney, I`d like to say "go with your ears" and never trust 100 percent hifi magazines because they need to survive sam times is good idea to see other products without five stars, it was what I did and I`m very happy with my sound now. I was to buy the Nad c352 and I listened it, I liked but was missing something after that I cheked other options in several forums and I read very good things about the Rega Brio it really was what I wanted and I got it. What I can say now is never trust a lot hifi magazines. Regards Carlos |
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Bronze Member Username: Sukhoi30New Zealand Post Number: 86 Registered: Jun-06 | Calling Frank Once again "The difference in my view is that the Rega presentation leans more toward the pace and timing whereas the Naim leans more toward rhythm" Nice post Frank (as usual) - however could you please elaborate on the rythm aspect of Naim, i thought timing and rythm were more or less same and go hand in hand, obviously i am missing something or plain ignorant. Also Would The brio's 40 W be enough to drive the Dyn 52. Has any one tried the Proac 110s with the Brio - would love to hear there experience. Cheers |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1985 Registered: Sep-04 | Saurabh Sorry for the wait - missed this thread... I am of the opinion that the Brio would not suffice to drive the Dyn 52s properly. The ProAcs should be OK since they're a relatively easy load. But then you'd have to like ProAc and I don't.  On the subject of the Rega/Naim differences, this is really difficult to describe! This is all to do with what are considered to be the three most important aspects of music reproduction as viewed by what used to be called the 'flat earth' manufacturers (Linn, Naim, Rega), and these are Pace rhythm and Timing (or PR&T). The Regas have a tendency (less so with the CD players now) to push the music forwards, giving a fast pacey sound. They also have a lean tight sound which emphasises the leading edge of notes which really delivers great timing since the leading edge defines where the note starts and whether it's on time. The Naim gear also emphasises leading edge and pushes the music forward to give a pacey sound. However, with the Naim you're not so aware of those aspects because it also brings in the micro dynamics , interplay between the individuals in a piece which lends rhythm to the whole piece. So in fact the Naim might sound slowr, but it won't sound 'slow' because the rhythm aspect gives all the notes their sense of place. This is not the same as the notes having space, which is an artefact of many amplifiers more interested in the tonal aspects of music reproduction than PR&T, or so called 'round earth' manufacturers. The round earth/flat earth thing was a hotly debated issue in the 80's and 90's. It still simmers along nicely, and as both sides of the fence get better at reproducing music, they are slowly approaching each other in terms of results. So nowadays Naim systems will actually do some soundstage and give some space around notes, and Cyrus systems actually have a stab at reproducing some PR&T. I hope this helps... Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Sukhoi30New Zealand Post Number: 87 Registered: Jun-06 | Many Thanks Frank Makes a lot more sense - now especially since the audiion of the Regas is still fresh in my head. Yeah i know you are not a great fan of the Proacs but it has killer mids and very emotive, any particular reason not to like them? just makes me wonder since i loved them to the core. Cheers |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2010 Registered: Sep-04 | I find the ProAcs to be a bit clinical and bit mechanical. They're fine speakers, very well made, beautifully finished. I just wish they didn't sound like they had a rod up their behind all the time. Lots of people love these speakers, so maybe it's me who has the rod up his... Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: MiguelpjPost Number: 1 Registered: Apr-07 | hi, i'm new in hi-fi and i want to buy a system i think it will be a rotel ra 04 nad 525 cd player and BW 601 s3 or the amp will be the nad 325. thoes anyone have an opinion on this 2 systems to help me make a decision?? thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: Sukhoi30New Zealand Post Number: 88 Registered: Jun-06 | Frank Its probably personal preference id say. Miguel, For a Rotel go for 601s3 or 602s3 but not any higher, Cables will pay an important role in this combo, probably more that you would imagine and can make and break the combo IMHO. 352 is a good option as well but depends on your preference, i was driving the 602s with 352 for a while but moved over to Rotel. There will surely be a few posts here who would recommend NAD over Rotel - its your preference, if i had a choice - Rotel has a clear upper hand with the B&Ws by a margin. Cheers |
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New member Username: MiguelpjPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-07 | Frank, Thank you very much for your answer. I am trying to by a hi-fi without spending a lot of money. The amp. I was referring to was de 325 and not the 352, the 352 will cost 120€ more than the 325. The Rotel misses the remote and I'm not sure if it will make a problem. I will try to listen to both combinations once more before I decide. Is there a big difference in performance comparing the 325 with the 352 or is just power? I liked very much to listen to the Rotel with the BW's 601 s3, tried it with the 303 but it makes a lot difference for the 601 s3. The cd player was the Rotel rcd 06, but this player is a lot more expansive. I think i will not feel the difference when i listen the rotel with the Nad 525 cd player. Cheers |
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New member Username: MiguelpjPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-07 | Not Frank, Saurabh. thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: Sukhoi30New Zealand Post Number: 89 Registered: Jun-06 | Hi Miguel, "The Rotel misses the remote and I'm not sure if it will make a problem" Remote was not very usefull for me since both with Rotel and Nad i use to fine tune the volume to what i wanted - however i mostly listen to music late at night and hence had a need to fine tune volume. Remote is always a plus but for me i use to end up doing it manually. Could come handy if you have a matching CDP. "I was referring to was de 325 and not the 352" Unfortunately i have never owened 325 but i guess Frank sould help you with the same or many more on this forum. "The cd player was the Rotel rcd 06, but this player is a lot more expansive" Heres a catch - Rotel makes very average CDPs IMHO but the amps rock. NAD has the best Value for money CDP (542) IMHO but is not the best match with Rotel amps. Though i say NAD cdp and Rotel amps are not the best combo - i am living with one for more than a few months and shall upgrade the CDP only when time permits. It sounds good none the less. Hope i havent confused you a lot. Cheers |
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