Acoustics problem
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New member Username: J_strazzPost Number: 5 Registered: Jul-06 | I recently moved into a new and bigger apartment with a large living room. I have a set of Bose AM10 speakers with a passive subwoofer that I use with my Yamaha receiver which is about 110 watts per channel. My speaker setup sounded fine in my old apartment which was smaller and had a carpet on the floor. My new bigger apartment has tile on the floor and my speakers sound like they are in an empty room (even though it's full of furniture). I plan to buy larger speakers with and a powered subwoofer later on. Do you think that this will solve the problem or will I need to put a rug in the livingroom? I'd really like to avoid that because I live in South Florida and a rug may make my apartment seem warmer. Does anybody have any short term suggestions until I get some larger speakers? I know that a number of people on this site hate Bose speakers and I do not plan to buy another set myself, but if anybody has a suggestion on what I can do with them in the meantime (besides tossing them in the nearest dumpster) I would greatly appreciate it. |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 98 Registered: Jul-06 | The only way you can get good sound is to treat your room acoustics with acoustic panels!! The performance of any soundsystem will be greatly enhanced if the acoustics of the room are treated. Fix the room!  |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1058 Registered: Dec-03 | I'll avoid commenting on your system, however, there is the distinct possibility that the volume/configuration of your old room provided some boosts at certain frequencies that made it sound better to you. Ceiling panels and/or wall panels may be all you need to improve the sound of your new room. If you have two hard parallel surfaces typically only one will require sound treatment. It's usually unneccesary to treat both. I recently added 2' x 4' x 2" fiberglass panels covered with acoustically transparent cloth to my ceiling. Made a significant improvement. You may want to visit Rives website for tips. http://www.rivesaudio.com/resources/links/frame.html |
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Bronze Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 58 Registered: Mar-06 | Getting larger speakers and a powered subwoofer would worsen the problem, no? Wouldn't the missing frequencies from your current system help reduce acoustic problems? |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 51 Registered: Jun-06 | Rush and I always push the same point: pay attention to room accoustics. I won't make assumptions about your space. Read this: http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html It will be the best hour you ever spent. You may learn that no speaker or powered subwoofer can overcome your problem. But $100 in insulation can. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1059 Registered: Dec-03 | Um, how do missing frequencies help? Shouldn't the goal be to get the room and the system to perform as accurately as possible given the restrictions we all face? Perhaps you were referring to bass reproduction which can be the most daunting task. Still, if you want to get the lower frequencies the system has to be able to play them, then you need to deal with the room either through passive or active means. |
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New member Username: J_strazzPost Number: 6 Registered: Jul-06 | Thank you all for your input. I will plan to upgrade my speakers at some point, but for now, I will try to get the best possible sound with acoustic improvements. |
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Bronze Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 59 Registered: Mar-06 | My comments were not appropriate for critical listening. I am only considering a situation where a Bose system is used in a reflective room. Consider a situation where the speakers only play 80 Hz to 100Hz and 2kHz to 3kHz (I do not know what frequencies are present or absent in Bose presentation). All other sound information is removed. Wouldn't there be less total reverberation in the room? Considering all frequencies are played at the same decibel level? I often wonder if this actually holds true for Bose and if it is a factor in popularity of such systems. I recently moved to a room with wood flooring and bare walls.. rendering my Wharfedale Diamond speakers useless! I now use my computer speakers a lot more frequently. Its not entirely attributable to room size as my previous accommodation was not larger. My concern is with the OP getting large speakers and then earning a headache while listening to music thanks to overly reflective walls. I do understand the importance of room treatments; almost every location at which I heard good music was treated well to contain reflections. Then again, I dont know how all this fits in with Bose 'direct/reflective' philosophy! Lol. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1060 Registered: Dec-03 | Keep in mind John, that you don't want to "kill" the room by putting a bunch of aborptive panels in it. Much improvement can be made by diffusion rather than absorption and usually it's a combination of both. One of my favorite solutions is one created by Terry Cain. |
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Bronze Member Username: HifisoundguyPost Number: 17 Registered: Aug-06 | Two Clever Little Clocks did the job for me! |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 99 Registered: Jul-06 | Tim, That all depends on what kind of panels you hang. For example, check out the absorption rates for the GIK244. These are 2'x4' by 4" thick. http://www.gikacoustics.com/absorption.html With something like these, you wont make the room too dead. You cannot have too much absorption at the low end(bass trapping), and where people tend to go wrong is when they go overboard with high frequency absorption coupled with a lack of bass trapping.(a bad combo) |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 871 Registered: Dec-03 | John: Without question, if your system sounds like it is in an empty room, you are getting the sonic reflections off of the tile floor. The only thing that will cure this problem is an area rug. Acoustic panels will help, but you must cover some of that tile with a large enough rug to cut most of the sonic reflections. A large area rug is the most important thing you can do. Good luck! |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 100 Registered: Jul-06 | I disagree. The floor is a problem, but not his biggest or only problem. The floor merely counts as one room boundry out of six that exist in every room. (unless you live in a bubble) |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1061 Registered: Dec-03 | "That all depends on what kind of panels you hang." Actually, it depends on which frequencies and bandwidth you're trying to control. |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 101 Registered: Jul-06 | To add to my previous post: Yes, tossing a rug on the floor will help, but not in a huge or signifant way. Throwing a rug on the floor will have nowhere near the impact (or absorption rates)of 2'x4' 4" thick acoustic treatments. My point is that while he should toss the rug on the floor(it's better than nothing), the greatest acoustic improvement will be achieved by treating the other surfaces with acoustic panels. By placing 4" thick panels in the corners, and at first reflection points, the room will dramatically become an incredible sound room. Yes, pitching a rug onto the floor helps and is better than nothing, but acoustically speaking; that's barely the tip of the iceberg. (not to mention only one room boundary out of six) The other surfaces can be easily and effectively treated, while a throw rug only offers minimal absorption. Yes do the rug, but your room will still be lousy if that's all you do. |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 102 Registered: Jul-06 | Tim, Every room needs broadband absorption. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 877 Registered: Dec-03 | Rush: The reason the floor is a problem is that it is a tile floor. I have lived with a tile floor before and it reflects everything. The room is not just lively, its hot--much hotter than hardwood in fact. So it does not matter that it is only one room boundary out of six. It is by far the most reflective surface of sonic waves. While an area rug will do the best job, given your location in South Florida, John might instead use some area mats made up of rush or cocoa leaves, which used to be widely available in South Florida when I used to visit my grandparents on Pompano Beach. I would be surprised if they were hard to find now. They are made primarily for tile floors like John's. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1062 Registered: Dec-03 | Rush: Once again, absorption by itself is not always the answer. A typical approach to the common room is tackling high frequency early reflections via absorption using 1" thick strategically placed panels, mid-range problems via diffusion (and possibly absorption as well) using oddly shaped wood diffusers or bookshelves (with books) and bass traps to deal with low frequency modes which are the product of room dimensions. Using a number of 4" thick panels may "kill" the room and a "dead" room is not very enjoyable for music listening. |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 103 Registered: Jul-06 | That's why you shouldnt over asorb in the high frequency range with acoustic foam or thin panels. However, the 4" panels have completely different absorption properties. That's why I posted their absorption coefficients because I thought you would understand the graph. |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 104 Registered: Jul-06 | PS Congrats on the new ceiling panels you installed recently. I read your comments on how they made a big difference. Just imagine how great it would sound if you finish the room!! And yes, spare me the sermon about over deadening the room. Doing the corners and first reflection points will suffice There's really no point going overboard. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1063 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks Rush, and I wouldn't being saying any more if you hadn't mentioned using only 4" thick panels. I do understand the graphs and the 4" panels show significant absorption in the lower mid-range with less than full absorption above 1kHz. This is all room dependent however it still seems better to use a combination of treatments. Quote from the GIK web page: " GIK 242 - 2' x 4' Acoustic 2" Panel...$49.99 each The GIK 242 panel is professionally manufactured for a sharp and crisp appearance just like the GIK 244. The GIK 242 is an ideal addition to the GIK 244 to fine-tune a room. We recommend mounting GIK 244 panels in each corner and troubled low-end spots in the room with the GIK 242 mounted at the first and secondary reflection points." They also mention diffusers but don't sell them. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1592 Registered: Sep-04 | John, Your description of the room indicates that it is likely to be quite a bright sounding room which emphasises the higher frequencies and gives you ringing echoes. This is quite common with tile floors. You say it's full of furniture, but of course, it's not completely full otherwise you wouldn't get in! There's enough space and air in the room for most frequencies to bounce around. If you stand up in the room and clap your hands together sharply just once, you'll probably hear the echo of that clap and if you're really unlucky you'll hear it more than once with a bit of a flutter to it as well. If so you have a pretty bright room. If you walk around the room repeating this, you'll find that the echoes change depending on where you are in the room. You can rearrange your furniture to let you sit in a more advantageous place so you can get less echo, but of course, that may be less advantageous aesthetically! The most common basic solution to killing some of the reflection is to have a rug on the floor, but you indicate that this is not suitable. I think the other solutions of room acoustic treatment are probably just as unappealing to you. If your furniture uses hard surfaces such as flat polished leather and glass then you really are onto a hiding to nothing. In this case, small cushions on the couch/chairs can help break up the sound when nobody is sitting in it. Having the furniture in non-rectangular formation (not at 90 degrees basically) will help the sound to bounce away from you too. Bare walls are a bad thing too acoustically. Pictures on the wall can help break up reflections. Larger speakers won't necessarily help the problem since what I am describing is all to do with the room and not the speakers. That said, Bose AM10 satellites are meant to use reflections to help create a bigger acoustic effect. Of the two pods on each satellite, the lower is meant to face at an angle at the side walls and the upper is meant to face you directly. Try changing the angle of the lower pod to face you more directly and stop all the sound bouncing around. Also don't have the top pod aimed directly at you necessarily. You may find that the sound is better by having them aim almost square to the room. I also find that the bass becomes boomy with the AM10 thanks to that passive sub. On one occasion I found that the only way to reduce the soud enough and lower the reverberations was to put a bunched up pair of socks into the throat of the port in the sub. I didn't push it all the way (!) and adjusted it until I got the bass I wanted. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 52 Registered: Jun-06 | It seems to me that, basically, all comments here are valid points, but all reflect one's own past experience. The difficult part of this is that every room is different, and requires different solutions. It can get very complicated, especially if you try to start fine tuning and tweeking. In fact, you could spend just as much time learning about this facet of the hobby as any other. Since it can be a bit overwhelming, and most people can grasp onto the concepts like more power means louder, and bigger means better, they fall back to those very general rules and avoid dealing with room treatments. That, and room treatments are typically pretty ugly. I mean, even the most nicely finished panels very obvious intrusions into the room. I will point out that the "hand clapping" experiment is a simple demonstration of the problem, but does not demonstrate bass build up in the corners, which is what really kills the sound of a good stereo. This experiment is valid for the high frequencies, but again, that is usually not the underlying problem in most rooms (I say most, because MOST rooms have parallel walls, ceiling and floors regardless of how reflective those surfaces are. Its the shape of the room that causes the majority of the problem, not the material). Again, my advice to noobies: spend a few hours doing some research. Spend just as much time learning and selecting accoustic treatments as you do speakers, particularly if you're trying to overcome a weakness in your system. |
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New member Username: J_strazzPost Number: 7 Registered: Jul-06 | Once again, I just want to thank everyone for there input on this subject. I am going through all of the comments and will be looking for the best solution for my room (and my budget). |
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Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 10204 Registered: Dec-03 | Please, just do not get clocks to try and resolve your situation. |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 108 Registered: Jul-06 | Geoff makes some good points. Treating the room can get extremely daunting, and most people do nothing because they read enough to become overwhelmed by the many treatment possibilities and science of acoustics. However, there is no need to become overwhelmed. I recommend people subscribe to the KISS approach and employ basic treatment principles that exist for every room. If you can comprehend how to find your first reflection points and corners & treat them, you'll be miles ahead of those who get overwhelmed and do nothing. I'm amazed at the large percentage of self-proclaimed audiophiles do absolutely nothing with regard to room treatment. To most, having a carpeted room with furniture and drapes constitutes room treatment, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I also don't buy into the theory of "the treatments are too ugly" theory because they can be incorporated into the decor of any room. After all, a true audiophile will design his/her listening room decor around the number one important factor. (Clean, clear, accurate sound) After all, we are audio enthusiasts, right? Could you imagine a racing enthusiast not wanting to install a large blower onto his car (which will increase his horsepower & performance) because it's too ugly? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1604 Registered: Sep-04 | Geoff, My experience with tiled rooms built in sub-tropical climes is that they have a tendency to sound bright - hence the hand-clapping experiment to check for midrange flutter and echo, as well as the suggestions to re-direct the satellites. Brightness of the type I am thinking of gives the impression of being in a large empty room as John had suggested. You're right that many rooms suffer from bass problems as well, and that these are determined largely (but not solely) by the room's dimensions. Building materials do make a difference since the resonance of the walls changes depending on the material from which they're made. I must say I had assumed that bass was less of a problem and midrange/treble flutter and echo were the main causes of John's dissatisfaction. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 54 Registered: Jun-06 | I just re-read the original post. I originally thought I read "my speakers sound like they are empty" when he really wrote "my speakers sound like they are in an empty room". You're right about the brightness, Frank. |
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