Tim's Lings vs.Oddyssey Epiphonys
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 358 Registered: Jun-05 | As everyone knows by now Tim is about to let us a select few on this forum get the first exclusive home review on the Lings.I just bought Epiphony for $595 from Oddyssey Audio one of the soundstaging and imaging monitors on the narket regardless of price.The Lings with high crossover offer some pretty stirring sound for just $399 which I will put the two head to head and I personally think the Lings are gonna do a real good job and really keep up and be really surprising it is a tall tree for them to climb but it will be very interresting. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 350 Registered: Dec-03 | Hey Tawaun! This should be very interesting. Please send your shipping info to me at info@alegriaaudio.com so I can make sure you're on the list. Thanks! Tim |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 362 Registered: Jun-05 | I will give it to you as soon as I can Tim. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 381 Registered: Jun-05 | Anyone ever heard these?they are right here in my back yard and I didnt even know it,Indianapolis 100 miles away.I must say I didnt think I would any monitors anymore they have sure changed my mind.Just outstanding speaker for the money and then some,Tims Lings are really gonna have their hands full,but it will be classic shootout. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 373 Registered: Dec-03 | From the couple of reviews I read they seem to be very good indeed. I'm looking forward to this. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 386 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah me to I dont really think thier will be a loser in this shoutout,they may be quite similar sound wise the only place where the Epiphonys could have a advantage is in the bass.But I have seen 4inchers be real supprising the Arro,Tablelitte,Dreamcatcher to name a few.I think it will definetly come down to preference. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundideasPost Number: 16 Registered: Jul-05 | They talk a little about these Oddyssey Audio Epiphony speakers over at www.audiocircle.com |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 673 Registered: Jun-05 | In talking about the Arros,I had to talk about them the similarities are hard to believe,I cant say which ones i like better yet because i have not had enough time with them yet{the Epiphonys},but i think im getting close though.They handle more power,they are a little sweater a in the top end,the Arro just a touch more warmth in the midrange,and they both have that wonderful tone in spades like legondary quads,they both play into the low 40s or high 30s.This is where I didnt think that i could find another speaker for under $10000 to equal the Arros soundstaging and imaging,but the Pips beat them in everyway except for the the size of images and think thats only because the Arros have a more foward midrange,I only say that because on certain recordings the Epiphonys make images just as large,but its the way they appear and the way they decay,which leads me to believe this, the pips are a little close to reality in this aspect.They are both great pick your poison! |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | Tawaun, You say the same prayer about every speaker that you buy....lol If you could go back and read many of your posts they sound almost the same, today are the Pips, a month ago were the SDAT's who knows tomorrow....you are a funny fellow. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 676 Registered: Jun-05 | Anon who are you oh your not a member of this forum,i would tell you that they will dust off your Green Mountains that you probably dont own your just jealis because i can go out and buy speakers when i want to I cant help that you are abroke and poor loser ,but you dont exist so go play somewhere and get a life! |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | Yes, I am very, very "Jelis", whatever that means  |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | (JELIS) Journal of Education for Library and Information Science http://www.alise.org/publications/jelis.html WOW ! ....Now I am really impressed ! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 678 Registered: Jun-05 | Oh well I got in a hurry,so what jealous is that better for you?You impress me likewise Anon,with the endless meaningless things you have contributed to this forum,you should really win a speacial olympics gold medal for it im proud of you. |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | Well thank you guy ! No one ever has been proud of me ! You just made my day! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 860 Registered: Jun-05 | I just hit 100 hours on them they are playing down to 40htz solid now,female voices are just staggering,soundtaging and imaging are best I,ve ever heard,the only thing that hinders the soundstage is your room and in most cases they can remove the back and sidewalls,well really the only limit with the soundstage is the man in charge of the downmixing in the studio.For $595 I dont know how Klaus Blunge at Odyssey Audio does it,I have to make myself stop listening to them,now thats addictive when you have to that. |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | See ! ....I told ya' ! Every speaker you hear is "The best I have ever heard" lol |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | no worries mate ...I just like being a jerk most days. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 121 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun A.Williams, trust me, there are "monitors" out there that will not only change your mind, but BLOW your mind as well. If you ever get the chance to listen to any of the following "monitors" please do so. Audio Machina's Ultimate Monitor Green Mountain Audio Callisto's Harmonic Precision Caravelles You'll be picking your jaw back up off the floor. All first order units. All in another league. These three companies should be on your short list for new speakers. Not cheap, but worth every penny. All three of these would be "keepers" effectively ending your search for replacements or, floorstanders. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 122 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, what happened to the SDAT's you were singing praises of to no end a while back? Why go to the Epiphony's is the SDAT's were all that? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 918 Registered: Jun-05 | Paul what makes you think im looking for somemore speakers im quite content,ive heard all of the speakers you named for a brief moment at the sterephile show,and they are all good,but the Odyssey $1500 system won best sound at the show,and it done amazing things regarless of price,and none of those speakers produced the kind of soundstage as the Epiphonys.In that atribute they are one of the best in the world,Ive heard plenty of good monitors JM Lab Utopia Micro Be,B&W 805 S,Refference 3A De Caprio,Ariel 5A,,Pro Ac Tabblelite Refference 8,Thiel PCS,all the Spender and Harbeth models and countless other great monitors like the Totems on many many occations like right now I have the Rainmakers hear with me now,and none of them impressed me in the way the Epiphonys did,and beleive me your not talkin to no rookie in this audio field,but I do understand what you mean. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 297 Registered: Jul-05 | Tawaun will get to compare them to Tim's Lings which are also 1st order. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 919 Registered: Jun-05 | Well DA we will find out in the next few weeks because they come to me next after Margie is done.It will be interesting especially since they both have very high crossover setting,and they both use Tang-Band woofers. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 920 Registered: Jun-05 | Paul get your stupid as. off of my thread you are only here to try to start a fight,dont try to educate me on bookshelfs,Ive heard more speakers then you have seen in a Stereophile magazine,so you can save your little SDAT coments for someonelse.I have one question for you have you heard the Epiphonys?If you havent then shut your mouth! |
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anonymousll Unregistered guest | Tawaun, My MA's would eat your Pip's alive. No joke, I think you exaggerate way too much regarding your speakers, they are really not that good, I would say they are just average maybe even below avg. Just MHO |
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anonymousII Unregistered guest | Tawaun, This is the real anonymous II. I DID NOT post the above stupid comment. As I just posted on the receivers page this idiot has forced me to withdraw from this board so to you and everyone else from this time on if you see a AnonymousII it is NOT me. Sorry for this mess. Why do idiot trolls constantly have to screw up this forum. Same crap as last winter. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 123 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, you are not capable of being "educated" Your far too stupborn with your know it all attitude. You remind me of my son at age 14. I told him he should go out and buy a home and start a business now while he still knows it all. I've been in this business longer than you have probably been alive. Thirty five years of reading every single audio publication; technical white paper; engineer papers; designer papers, reviews; and have had the priveledge of working with some of the industries finest minds. There is no way you could have heard the three models I mentioned and still be spouting off about the Epiphony's. I went to the companies web site after reading your glowing post, just as I did the SDAT site. SDAT was a freeking JOKE, but I remained silent...blowing you off as some kid who hadn't heard decent speakers. The Epiphony's are somewhat better i'll admit, but nothing special. MDF cabinets. Average drivers. No information given about the x-over (the most important part of speaker design) Tell me sir.....in very technical terms (because I understand them) why these Epiphony's are better than, say, the GMA Callisto's for $1500 less? Enjoy your new Epiphony's, but i'll follow your posts to see how long it takes for you to discover the next "Best speaker ever" And who knows, perhaps someday you can be civil and we can talk audio. |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | I concur, I have said it before. Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 03:12 pm: Tawaun, You say the same prayer about every speaker that you buy....lol If you could go back and read many of your posts they sound almost the same, today are the Pips, a month ago were the SDAT's who knows tomorrow....you are a funny fellow. lol |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 927 Registered: Jun-05 | Paul B. I asked you one question you havent answered it,oh wait a minute you did you have never heard the Green mountains you said it yourself on the Ling thread and let alone the Epiphonys or the SDATs.And you have the nerve to coment,is this what you mean when you said you have 35 years of experience?reading a magazine or listening to someones elses experiences with the speakers doesent count.You know im gonna take everything you say for now on with a grain a salt maybe even 2 like I do Paul.Wow if this is how you judge audio gear than you should just get yourself some Bose and forget about being on a forum perpatrating like you have some knowlege in this proffesion or hobby.Anon how many speakers have I bought since I've been on this forum?2 pairs no more or no less than anyone else,but I listen and hear different speakers everyday,the only difference between me and some other people i choose to write about my speakers if im impressed with them,so when are we gonna hear a review on those Green Mountains you like?Oh my my bad you still dont own them,why dont you scrape up some money and buy them and then maybe you wont be so bitter and you can throw those Bose you have in the dumpster. |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | Here we go again. I still don't understand why you keep associating me with GMA. beats me. You are wrong though, I have not acquired any speakers since you came aboard, not one. I have been happy with the speakers I purchased about a year ago so I don't have any need to spend on new stuff. I like to spend my money wisely. What do I have?...not going to tell you, however, I can say that I paid more than 10 times what you spent for your Pips.....Now, can you see why I can not spend more ? btw, please leave some space between sentences. |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | OK, My bad, I misread your post. You said "how many speakers have I bought" crap, sorry |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 314 Registered: Jul-05 | Paul, at 1500 more, the Callisto had better be superior in every way to the "Pips". But if you wish, we can discuss the Callisto's drawbacks. A speaker with 1st order crossover requires much higher quality drivers as the individual drivers will be run much harder. If high quality drivers are not used, this can introduce distortion; no matter what it will affect the dynamics of the speaker as more is asked of each driver than in a conventional speaker. Finally, time alignment, while an admirable aim, has a reduced real world effect thanks to all the reflections caused by being placed in a real room. Further on this point, the Callisto is not a full range speaker. Adding a subwoofer will further destroy the aim of time alignment. You might argue that you don't need a subwoofer for most music, but it nonetheless represents a compromise. I suppose another issue with the Callisto isn't so much an issue with the speaker as with the company that has created it. GMA can't market their way out of a paper bag. They do not differentiate the Callisto in any way from the Europa, which could lead people to question the value it presents. Moreover, their website looks like it was designed by a mentally challenged indivudal. One has to question the quality of the product if they cannot even produce a halfway decent website. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 124 Registered: Apr-05 | Devils Advocate, And a higher order crossover is better why? I'll shoot em down as fast as you can post your answers......not a full range speaker? What, in your mind constitutes "Full range"? |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 125 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, I have no desire nor need to hear your Epiphony speakers. I can get pretty much all I need from the website. Explain to me what you meant when you said, and I quote "i would tell you that they will dust off your Green Mountains" statement? Again, I understand techical speak, so fire away bud. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 315 Registered: Jul-05 | "What, in your mind constitutes "Full range"?" 20Hz (or below depending on program material) to 20kHz. "And a higher order crossover is better why? I'll shoot em down as fast as you can post your answers......" Speaker designs are compromises. I have already posted a few with regards to your precious Callisto. Is there a point to repeating myself? |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 126 Registered: Apr-05 | Devils advocate said "A speaker with 1st order crossover requires much higher quality drivers as the individual drivers will be run much harder" And the DISADVANTAGE of using higher quality drivers is what? Are you saying the Callisto's drivers are not high quality? Or are you saying it's ok to use lesser quality drivers as long as your going to screw up the original signal with a high order crossover? Which is it? "Finally, time alignment, while an admirable aim, has a reduced real world effect thanks to all the reflections caused by being placed in a real room." Wrong. Physics supports the fact that in almost no room ( and certianly no home listening rooms)does the reflected sound reach your ears before the original sound. Therefore, along with the major advantage of drastically less phase errors, the first order crossover design has less room problems than do higher order units. Yes the room is going to add some reflections, but what your saying is because this is true, lets throw out waveform integrity. Room nodes can be controlled or damped. The 180 - 360 degrees of phase shift induced by the crossover in ALL higher order designs is there....in every room.....on every song.....always. Can't fix it, change it or compensate for it. Next? |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 316 Registered: Jul-05 | "And the DISADVANTAGE of using higher quality drivers is what? " Cost. "Are you saying the Callisto's drivers are not high quality?" No. "Or are you saying it's ok to use lesser quality drivers as long as your going to screw up the original signal with a high order crossover? " A lower order crossover runs more frequencies through a driver. This results in a need for a superior, more costly driver, than would otherwise be needed. In addition, as a result of more being expected of a driver, dynamics are also reduced as compared with a conventional design. "Physics supports the fact that in almost no room ( and certianly no home listening rooms)does the reflected sound reach your ears before the original sound." Perhaps, but if it reaches your ears after the sound that is directly from your speakers, it will still "smear" the sound, no? "Room nodes can be controlled or damped. " At a price. "Next?" Given that people choose speakers based on how they sound, how come speakers with 1st order x-overs aren't more popular? Why is it that brands like Wilson Audio and B&W are allowed in the high end when there are brands like Thiel and Meadowlark? Why is Meadowlark going under if their product is beyond what other manufacturers produce? Certainly those who purchase high end Wilson speakers do their research before purchase. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 933 Registered: Jun-05 | Paul I didnt say that to you unless you are really one of thousand anonymous out there.You can read all you need from your website,wow thats real bright,so I guess you judge speakers by specs and looks like a lot of morons do.So what ever you say from this point on is gonna have no credability for me to listen to you,man you need to go over to the H/T side thats what someone who judges off of looks and specs and reviews without hearing them belong. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 317 Registered: Jul-05 | Lets put it this way Paul. I know you've been floored by time aligned speakers and as far as you are concerned they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. But you must understand that not all people feel the same way. Tim has been shipping his speakers around to a few people on this forum, which boast among their features a 1st order crossover. Other speakers like Ascend have held up well in terms of subjective sound quality. Why can't you accept this? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 934 Registered: Jun-05 | DA his name is Paul he just cant understand that. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 127 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, no, you didn't say it to me, but you DID say it. So.....c'mon, stop trying to put me down and tell me why, in technical terms, your Epiphony's are better than the GMA's. If you can't do it, say so. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 128 Registered: Apr-05 | Devils Advocate, so..........your saying that the $2295.00/pair GMA's are too costly but Wilson offers products at $165K which perform much worse. Makes no sense. Why do so called "Hi end" manufacturers use higher order crossovers? Ask them. But price is not indicative of performance. I'll use the Legacy Focus 20/20's at $6K, the Piega C8's at $15K and the Aerial 20T's at $23K as points of reference. All of these have been reviewed in Stereophile over the last few months. Tawaun, you were right, I DO read Stereophile. If you're not familiar with these, all of them are vertical dynamic designs using multiple woofers in vented cabinets( a bad idea one would think "hi end" designers would steer clear of) If you look at the response of of these speakers, they all have very pronounced bass peaks with elevated low frequency plateau's taking place. Of these three, the Legacy's are by far the worst of the bunch. Not only do they diverge from neutrality the most ( +7 dB peak @ 100 Hz ), their elevated bass output or "low frequency plateau" levels out at 40 Hz and at 400 Hz. That is over 3+ octaves of "extra" output that wasn't on the recording. Above 400 Hz, the output levels off with very noticeable rippling slightly above that point in the midrange and multiple large peaks with a dip up in the treble response. Below 40 Hz, the output drops like a rock. The reason that the plateau levels out at 40 Hz is because of the associated sharp roll-off associated with vents below their point of resonance. To sum things up, this speaker, which Paul Bolin raved about in Stereophile, is anything but "smooth" or "linear" in reproduction. As can be seen in the graphs, there is a very definite "boom & sizzle" type of response taking place here. As a side note, i found that the Legacy Signature III's showed a similar large bass peak centered at appr 100 - 110 Hz, so this would seem to be a consistent design attribute / "house sound" / "family voice" to Legacy speakers. Moving onto the Piega's, their overall response looks to be measurably smoother than the Legacy's from the midrange on up. As far as bass goes, the Piega's peak occurs at an amplitude of +5 dB's and is centered at appr 85 Hz. Their "bass plateau" is quite wide, actually just as wide as that of the Legacy. Both show the same appr "elevated output" aka "bloat" from about 40 Hz to 400 Hz. Much like the Legacy's, the Piega shows the typical sharp roll-off below 40 Hz due to the output of the vent being out of phase with that of the undamped woofer. Even though both speakers show very similar plateau's and a similar F3 ( -3 dB point ), the Legacy's bass plateau has both a higher peak and a higher average. Moving up to the $23K price range, we've got the Aerial 20T's. Similar to the Piega's, the Aerial's are reasonably smooth in response from the mids on up with a few low amplitude peaks and dips. Side by side comparisons though, it would appear that the Piega's are a little "flatter". When it comes to low frequency performance, the Aerial's produced a +5 db peak centered at appr 60 Hz. Of the three speakers mentioned here, the amplitude of the peak is the same of the Piega's ( +5 dB's ), which is much lower ( 66% reduction ) than that of the +7 dB peak of the Legacy's. Even with this 66% reduction of the peak amplitude at resonance compared to the Legacy's, we are still talking about a divurgence of +5 dB's here!!! As far as the "bass plateau" goes with the 20T's, this speaker is much more linear than either of the above. While the Aerial's also level out at appr 40 Hz and drop like a rock below that point, the upper end of the bass region is MUCH smoother. Whereas the others were contributing added output up to appr 400 Hz, the Aerial's are leveling out at appr 120 Hz or so. In effect, the Aerial's appear to offer the most controlled bass with the least amount of bass colouration. Then again, they are by far the most expensive also. As far as low frequency extension is concerned, the Aerial's resonance peak is centered the lowest of the three i.e. 60 Hz for the Aerial's vs 85 Hz for the Piega's and 100 Hz for the Legacy. Even though the Aerial's have a resonance that is 25 Hz below that of the Piega's and 40% lower in frequency than the Legacy's, all of their -3 dB points are within a very few Hz of each other. While the graph's aren't completely legible, it appears that the F3 ( -3 dB point ) for all of these speakers are right about 34 - 38 Hz or so. How do such different designs achieve similar F3's? It has to do with the tuning of the vents and the amplitude of the peaks at resonance. By creating a huge peak at resonance, it takes longer for the amplitude of the signal to fall off. As such, the Legacy's much larger peak at resonance allows it to achieve appr the same F3 on paper that the other designs worked harder to achieve. As such, were the Legacy's designed this way because they like the sound of massive bloat? Were they designed this way so that they could claim a lower F3? Could it be a combo of the two? We'll probably never know. So, Devils Advocate, you should read what Richard Hardesty has to say about the Wilson line. Nothing good, but see for yourself at www.audioperfectionist.com I have just shown you not one, but three speaker systems costing from $6k to $23K that DON'T MEET YOUR "FULL RANGE" REQUIRMENT. Wanna re-think that statement or would you rather discuss 1st order crossovers some more? I have some cool Vector math numbers i'd love for you to run at home. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 324 Registered: Jul-05 | How can I put this...Who cares? Did you spend all night working on that response? The point of being full range is that if you want full range sound, you add a subwoofer. If you add a subwoofer, you destroy time alignment. If I am spending this kind of money on a system, I might want it to play a few low notes for me here and there, no? Now as I asked before, please inform me why the market is overrun with manufacturers who don't use 1st order x-overs. Why is Meadowlark going down the toilet when their product, in your opinion, is the greatest thing since sliced bread? Why isn't everyone buying Thiel? Is it perhaps that 1st order isn't really all that special? Or is everyone who buys Wilson or Piega deaf and unworthy of audiophile status? And I suppose my final statement to you is this: are you so in need of peer approval of your purchase decision that you have to try and cram it down everyone's throats? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 940 Registered: Jun-05 | Look Paul you read to much,and espeacially you read measurements to much I have all those reviews in Stereophile.The first thing all those reveiwers tell you is never base a speaker on measurements over sound Sam Tellig has stated this many times so has Paul Brolin the guy that reviwed the Legacy Focus 20/20 and what was the end result of that review you have the book you already know.Have you heard the Legacys mr.measurments I have and they are everything Paul Brolin said they were regardless of the measurments.Stop reading books so much and start listening to speakers and quit trying to judge speakers you have never heard and get your own opinion Paul Brolin cant listen for you |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 131 Registered: Apr-05 | When you guys lose the ability to discuss things from a technical standpoint, you say "who cares" Well guys and gals, I care. And you should also. I believe most tone-balance/cabinet-tuning decisions are made to offset the audible effects of a speaker having serious amounts of phase shift at every frequency, high to low. Bass boost, no matter how obtained, is most often used to offset the sharp/overly-aggessive sound of a phase-leading treble (or equivalent woofer time lag). Doesn't happen if designers listen to live music often. You also see designers turn down the tweeter, and "pull apart" the tweeter/mid crossover point to introduce a dip (measured) but "not" audible. Until you hear it after 30 CDs... especially the ones that "work out" the crossover range. Having excellent phase accuracy/time coherence between drivers means that all the amplitude peaks and troughs from woofer and tweeter line up over each other. You get the amplitude you put in, since nothing is cancelling. No matter what the test tone or the music. When they are out of phase, what you measure depends on HOW you measure- the type of test signal, particularly. What you hear depends on the tone range and the complexity of the music. If a speaker has gross phase shift from the mid down to the bass, as most of the ones discussed above do, it is usually a lag on the order of many milliseconds- which is the distance to the wall behind, or farther. With ringing at the crossover point. Which all sound like room problems because of the long time delays. Read any of the audio forums and you'll hear statements like these often: "I just moved them out 1/2" and the bass got much better!" It did- but only because of a particular interaction with the room, and your location, exaggerated by that woofer's trailing output. Multiple mids and one tweeter change tone balance w.r.t each other, as you move away. Multiple tweeters and multiple mids change relative tone balance as you move away. So do multiple woofers vs a single mid. Physics and measurements support this. Apparently, most designers ignore this, looking for some other performance aspect from using multiple drivers, which, as I said in my previous post, is a bad idea. Just because a speaker has a $150K price tag on it does not mean the designer knows what he/she is doing. Yes, I have heard the Wilson's and was not impressed. Ditto for the Legacy's. Why are there so few 1st order designs? Allow Paul Candy from sixmoons.com to answer that for you: "The majority of loudspeaker designers believe time/phase coherence is relatively unimportant or even inaudible. I am not surprised. First, many loudspeaker firms do not understand the math nor are they inclined to learn it. They are reluctant to go down the time/coherent route because such designs require more robust and expensive drivers. Cabinet construction is more difficult due to the requirement for physical driver staggering. Crossover implementation also requires additional effort. As for reviewers and audio review publications, why would they want to alienate 99% of the loudspeaker industry and potentially affect ad revenue by claiming a preference for time/phase coherent designs"? There's your answer. Now lets examine why a first order crossover is the best choice for home audio. First order usually refers to the electrical filter, not the inherent slope of the driver's response. Therefore a first order filter consists of one reactive element, either an inductor or capacitor, in series or parallel with the load (the driver). And the phase shift caused by the reactive element varies with frequency, as a function of the ratio of reactive impedance to load impedance. In an properly executed first order filter, there is a woofer inductor and a tweeter capacitor, each of which has a 45 degree phase shift at the crossover frequency, but in opposite directions. Over the rest of the frequency spectrum that each driver is intended to cover, the phase shift caused by the reactive elements is less than 45 degrees. Above the woofer's crossover frequency, and below the tweeter's crossover frequency, their phase shifts gradually approach 90 degrees, again in opposite directions. Higher order filters add 90 degrees of phase shift per order. For example, a second order filter will have a 90 degree phase shift on both woofer and tweeter at the crossover frequency, approaching 180 degrees in each driver at the extremes. The two 90 degree phase shifts at the crossover frequency in opposite directions gives a net 180 degree phase shift between the drivers, meaning that if the drivers are wired in the same absolute phase, there will be a null at the crossover frequency. This then necessitates that the input to one of the drivers be run in inverted phase, meaning that throughout the entire range covered by the two drivers, they are operating in opposite phase, nothing in your audio playback system or the recording chain can do this to the sound, only a speakers crossover. Think about that for a while guys. So, in a first order design you have one Vector .707 +45 and one vector .707 - 45, so they sum to unity zero. The 1st-order case is ideal when summed. It yields a piece of wire. Since the responses are the exact mirror images of each other, they cancel when summed, thus behaving as if neither was there in the first place. Unfortunately, all optimized higher order versions yield flat voltage/power response, group delay or phase shift, but not all at once. Hence, the existence of different alignments and resultant compromises. No other crossover can do this. ONLY a first order unit. A 4th order designs Vectors come in at 180 + and - with a 3db bump in frequency response at the crossover point. This "bump" will need to be smoothed out by the designer (more crossover parts) and each additional order adds 90 degrees of phase shift, for a total of 360 degrees of phase shift. Thats one full cycle guys. What this means is that the woofer and tweeter start at the same time, but one driver stops a full cycle AFTER the other. Of course, if we listen to you guys or the Wilson/ Legacy designers, ya can't hear it. RIGHT! Want me to post some links to what a high order crossover does to the signal as it passes thru it? I'll give you a hint: it's unrecognizable from the original waveform. Don't think you can hear it, your very wrong. Tawaun, you simply cannot read TOO much. Knowledge is power. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 327 Registered: Jul-05 | "When you guys lose the ability to discuss things from a technical standpoint, you say "who cares" Well guys and gals, I care. And you should also." Lets see, you go on a tangent about how expensive Wilsons and the like arent really full range either, despite the fact that the Callisto's range is only one small part of my argument; one that your tirade doesn't do anything to dispute. No, I don't care that you can read Stereophile and a few graphs. Sorry. As for the rest of your crap argument, I still don't care. I am apparently not alone in thinking that time aligned speakers are not the Messiah of audio. You can post all the technical information you wish supporting your position, kind of like how an electrical engineer can show that audiophiles fancy speaker wire is a waste of cash. In the end it doesn't matter. Its about the sound. If a 1st order speaker doesn't particularly sound better to someone, then it isn't. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 328 Registered: Jul-05 | "Now lets examine why a first order crossover is the best choice for home audio." What about no crossover? That would be even more ideal no? |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 329 Registered: Jul-05 | Or maybe an active crossover network... |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 134 Registered: Apr-05 | Devils Advocate, no crossover? Good idea....in theory. No single driver can cover the whole audible range including low bass, unless it is a large single-panel driver, for which you have to sit exactly in the middle. EXACTLY. The Lowther drivers and Jordan 5" drivers do have some bass, but not enough to balance out the voice range when listening more than 10 feet away, and they have loudness restrictions: Their high efficiency comes from low moving mass, due to a short voice coil = minimal stroke available for midbass and lower tones. Look up the x-max specs on the drivers. I think you'll be surprised. And since it cannot be an infinitely rigid cone, it has cone breakup too, which imposes a ragged phase error across the roll-off region, a raggedness that changes with loudness too. While having far less phase shift than higher order designs, crossover-less speakers still suffer from it. Active crossover? Do you mean digital crossover? Wonder what happened to Tawaun.....i'm waiting for him to prove my comments wrong with some solid physics. *sigh* Devils Advocate, now let me ask YOU a question. In your mind, is it ok for an amplifier designer to use high amounts of global negative feedback to achieve wide bandwith and low T.H.D. specs? |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 136 Registered: Apr-05 | D/A "As for the rest of your crap argument, I still don't care. I am apparently not alone in thinking that time aligned speakers are not the Messiah of audio." Crap argument? Sheesh, I offer you a college education in hi-fi in two posts and you call it crap. Thats gratitude for ya. Not because i'm wrong, rather you don't understand the information in the post. I challenge you as I did Tawaun to find one thing in my post that is blatantly wrong and you can prove is wrong with math or physics. I honestly think you just haven't heard 1st order done right. Thats it in a nut shell. Speaking of Tawaun.......anyone seen him? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5616 Registered: May-04 | PB - While your discourse on single, full range drivers can be taken as a good general statement regarding the tradeoffs found in a certain design style, it would be unfair to paint all full range drivers as incapable of having better response than the two products you sight as examples. When considering audio loudspeakers, there are tradeoffs to be found in the simple questions of two way or three way, sealed box or ported box, paper or plastic (woofer material that is). The tradeoffs that come with no XO are just a few more to consider. They must then be weighed against the advantages of this design over a more complicated effort. That information you have yet to provide. Since this is a discussion of a specific speaker with its genesis in the single driver, full range camp, I would say your comments should be taken as an overview of this design choice and not as a critique of this particular design. More so since you've not heard the speaker under review. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 330 Registered: Jul-05 | PB: Unfortunately my education is business oriented. So please inform me why Meadowlark failed. Why is it that Thiel, GMA, et al do not dominate the high end market instead of B&W and Wilson if their product is "in another league"? Are you the only one among us who can hear properly? Are you that far superior to everyone else in the world? I thank you for coming to this forum to illuminate our otherwise dark and dull world PB. "Devils Advocate, no crossover? Good idea....in theory." Yes, thats part of that whole "trade-off" thing. But if it could be done properly, it would be ideal. "Active crossover? Do you mean digital crossover?" Potentially; but it does leave room for a lot of possibilities. In any event, take the Linkwitz Lab Orion, which a few people tout as the best thing since sliced bread; or try the B&O Beolab 5, which various sites love. Why is the GMA Callisto better than these speakers? |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 331 Registered: Jul-05 | "No single driver can cover the whole audible range including low bass, unless it is a large single-panel driver, for which you have to sit exactly in the middle. EXACTLY." And yet you admit that it can be done. Moreover, you point this out despite the fact that your Callisto cannot produce low bass either. " And since it cannot be an infinitely rigid cone, it has cone breakup too, which imposes a ragged phase error across the roll-off region, a raggedness that changes with loudness too." So you feel a 1" tweeter with a shallow 6dB an octave rolloff starting at 2850Hz will have no issues? "Devils Advocate, now let me ask YOU a question. In your mind, is it ok for an amplifier designer to use high amounts of global negative feedback to achieve wide bandwith and low T.H.D. specs? " Not particularly. But this has what to do with the discussion? "Sheesh, I offer you a college education in hi-fi in two posts and you call it crap. Thats gratitude for ya." Wow, I am forever in your debt PB. "I challenge you as I did Tawaun to find one thing in my post that is blatantly wrong and you can prove is wrong with math or physics." I challenge you to find one thing wrong with Audioholics math + physics + measurements that show that expensive speaker wire is a waste of money. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 191 Registered: Apr-05 | Arguing "my speakers sound better than your speakers" or "my speakers are designed better than your speakers" is silly. Unless you ready to make the claim that speaker sound is not a fundamentally subjective matter, then it stands to reason that some will prefer speaker "A" over speaker "B" and some will prefer speaker "B" over speaker "A" -- regardless of math, physics, measurements or any other technical mumbo jumbo. Arguing that a particular speaker technical design is inherently better than all other speaker designs is not unlike arguing that ribeye steaks are inherently better tasting than all other cuts of beef. It comes down to a matter of taste and preference. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 493 Registered: May-05 | Couldn't agree with you more Jimvm. That reminds me of when my cousin thought any performance V8 (ie not a truck) could beat any V6. My stock GMC Syclone (R.I.P.) blew the doors off of his 75th Anniversary 'Vette. His 'Vette has just about every performance part you can think of in it. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 137 Registered: Apr-05 | Devils Advocate, it always amuses me when potential customers believe the specifications manufacturers list on products. Take the Legacy 20/20 for example. Manufacturer claims a frequency response of 16hz to 32khz with a +- 2db variation, yet Stereophile's measurments show a dramatic drop off in response below 40hz, hardly the 2db down 16hz claim from legacy. From what I have read on line and heard from people that own the Calisto's, GMA's specs are quite conservative and better the companies claimed low end response of a 3db down point of 47hz. Not a hell of a lot of difference there, is there? To gain 7hz of low end response, you add all the problems that any 7 driver, 5 way system will create. The phase distortion alone has to be staggering. Am I the only one that can hear it? Of course not. Everyone can hear it. It's just a matter of listening and learning. I answered your question about why more first order designs aren't on the market, but your reply was "As for the rest of your crap argument, I still don't care" so i'm not going to waste time repeating the answer. JimV, if you read my posts, I said it is ok to like a speaker that colors the music and smears the phase terribly, whats not ok is to call said speaker "high end" "accurate" or "musical" as nothing could be further from the truth, regarless the price, manufacturer or hype surrounding it. There IS one best way to design home audio speakers. One would not want to use a 1st order crossover in pro audio installations for obvious reasons, but for home use, it's the only choice that makes sense musically. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 192 Registered: Apr-05 | PB - You seem to be saying that all time/phase coherent designed speakers are accurate and that any/all speakers which are not time/phase coherent invariably "color the music and smear the phase terribly"? Is that what you're saying? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5631 Registered: May-04 | "There IS one best way to design home audio speakers." PB - You've got to realize how dumb that statement is. If you seriously believe there is one way, and only one way, to design a decent speaker, there is nothing left to say to you. Just sitting here, I can't think of anything that can only be effectively designed one way other than toilet paper. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5632 Registered: May-04 | Even that comes in one ply and two ply. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 943 Registered: Jun-05 | He doesent know what he is talking about Jimvm everything he knows about audio is from reading Stereophile.He judges speakers on their specs and not by how they sound and he judges by what others audio reviewers say,instead of hearing them for himself,so how can he say anything bad about any speaker,even the ones he is upholding if he has never heard them he doesent have a clue.How can a person who hasnt heard speakers say whats better or whats not if he hasnt hasnt invested physical time with them absolutely rediculous. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 333 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan: Don't forget the quilted variations. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 193 Registered: Apr-05 | And scented -- mmmmmm! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5635 Registered: May-04 | Scented is for old ladies! You like your head smellin' like a strawberry or last night's mexican dinner? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5636 Registered: May-04 | Does go to prove a point though. Anyone who thinks there IS one way to design anything probably has patouchli scented sachets in their subwoofers. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 947 Registered: Jun-05 | PB I would be very pleased if you save your technical rants for some other thread,better yet start a thread about your technical info im sure you will get a lot of responses .This thread is for a review so we would all would appreciate it if you either particapated or stay away from it,its pretty evident your arguement or debate has nothing to do with this thread. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 496 Registered: May-05 | Paul Bayless is the new Mauimusicman. I'm just surprised he didn't talk about cleaning his Castillo's with Lemon Pledge yet... |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 954 Registered: Jun-05 | Stu out of a guy named Paul as we already know,its no telling whats gonna come out of Paul Bs mouth yet or either it will be ultra predictable,I think the most hysterical coments from him havent even surfaced yet. |
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Mauimusicman Unregistered guest | No, we are two different people, just like Micheal and Janet are different |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 499 Registered: May-05 | Welcome back Maui!!!!!!!! Where have you been hiding? I missed having you around. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 960 Registered: Jun-05 | Thats funny although I question those two.Its been a while since youve been here so you been following some of the threads? |
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Mauimusicman Unregistered guest | Gentleman, I have been peacefully waiting to see if some of you finally decide to audition the GMA Europas.....hey, It can't be that bad.....come on be brave take the next big step into a brighter future in sound ! Nice to be back partners |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 501 Registered: May-05 | maui - One of these days when I get some extra money, I'll check out the EUROPA, based soley on all of the the wonderful insight you given us. EUPORA. I think it'll be great to get a truly phase coherent speaker. EUROPA. Made with marble cabinets. EUROPA. Those won't resonate at all will they? EUROPA. And I'll love to clean them every week with Lemon Pledge. EUROPA. When I get sick of the EUROPA's - which will never happen, I'll get the Castillo's. EUROPA. All of your expertise, high school physics training, and eucilaley (?) training can only mean you have impeccible knowledge, credentials and standards. EUROPA. Just wondering, what amp do you recommend with the EUROPA's? EUROPA. What do you use? EUROPA. And once again, It's great to have you back. EUROPA. |
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Mauimusicman Unregistered guest | a Panasonic xr-55 |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 961 Registered: Jun-05 | I cant say mutch about the Panny yet Eddie loves it and many people on other forums do. the Europa how much are they?arent they $1000 I just wish they had a better website.So have you heard them I know it was a couple guys on Audioreview having a shootout with those and the Epiphonys. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 502 Registered: May-05 | Thanks maui. I think I'll try the Europas and the Panny. Sounds like a match made in heaven. Maybe a nice lengthy review to compare and contrast between that setup my NAD and PSB combo. |
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Mauimusicman Unregistered guest | Hey Stu, jusy a wuile ago you welcomed me back to the forum and now you are just mocking me? Truly, why is so hard for you to open your mind and try the Europas just as you audition any other different gear ? OK, I admit, I pretty much drove everyone crazy a while back talking about these wonderful speakers but what if you really did try to listen to them and liked them...I am not saying buy them just try them ...would that be a terrible thing to do? |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 503 Registered: May-05 | Maui - Mocking you? You said you used the Panny to run your Europa's. Actually, if I had a way to listen to them I would. I was being a little sarcastic with the EUROPA EUROPA post, but they seem like a great speaker. If they did something like the Ascends or Axioms did where they had a 30 day in home trial, I'd try them. Then again, I probably wouldn't because how much would return shipping cost for a pair of marble speakers? Probably almost as much as the speakers themselves cost. If they make their way into a NYC or surrounding area store, let me know. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 138 Registered: Apr-05 | JimV, no what i'm saying is all speakers that are NOT 1st order crossovers smear the original waveform. Some much worse than others. It is entirely possible to build a first order unit that is poorly designed, but it is impossible to design a higher order system that reproduces what goes into it. Pretty simple,no? If not, what part do you not understand? Jan Vigne, Explain how a 2nd or 4th order or a Linkwitz crossover can be "A good design, please"? And Jan, I don't wanna hear no "If you don't use the best drivers" argument, or "if you don't understand the math" argument because we are talking home audio. Not pro audio. Not car audio. K? Home designers should know what they are doing, right? Tawaun, you never answered my question guy. About the negative feedback. And Tawaun, about your comment "He doesent know what he is talking about Jimvm everything he knows about audio is from reading Stereophile." Yeah, right. Tawaun, I challenged you to find something in my posts that you can prove with math or physics that is wrong. Twice now. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 344 Registered: Jul-05 | Its funny PB, for all your math and physics knowledge, you can't understand why audiophiles might choose a Paradigm or B&W speaker over a Thiel speaker after comparing the sound they produce... Amazing. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 972 Registered: Jun-05 | First of all you havent heard any of these speakers that you are upholding and you are claiming they are superior to other speakers that have already proven their superioity and I'll say it again you havent heard any of the speakers not 1 pair, so how can me or anyonelse take your opinions seriously,and measurements only can take you so far to tell you about a speaker.You proved yourself wrong with that,I cant debate with someone like you who hasnt listened to any of these speakers.this is not some silly little science geek project this is music aparently something you know nothing about.So this is my final words for you go and get you some listening experiance and then come back and talk to me,until then your measurements that you didnt hell none of this is your own idea or thoughts,anyway you are way to inexperianced in listening to audio to have conversation with me about it,and way to one dimensional to undertsand what a good speaker is,you claim the Aerial 20 Ts are inaccurate,thats ignorant enough for me and im sure for most others on this forum to,so you have fun reading about speakers and the rest of us will have fun listening. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5663 Registered: May-04 | "Jan Vigne, Explain how a 2nd or 4th order or a Linkwitz crossover can be "A good design, please"?" The most basic answer is to explain what a first order XO can do very wrong and the Thiels are an excellent example. First, we have to understand that many, many speaker manufacturers are not much more than speaker assemblers. They use drivers which come from various driver manufacturers and place them together in an enclosure they have built for them. In this case, they are using the same raw drivers you and I can buy from a supplier. As the speaker manufacturer gets a little bigger, they might have an off the shelf driver slightly modified to meet a particular spec the designer wants to hit. Not until the speaker manufacturer gets to the point where they are designing and manufacturing all their drivers can the designer of the speaker system have a reasonable amount of control over what will happen in the speaker system. Using a first order XO with off the shelf drivers or custom built drivers can be problematic in that the XO allows such a shallow roll off of each driver the drivers can operate well outside their "best" frequency range. In the case of a two way Thiel, the Xo is made at a very low frequency to get the tweeter to cover as much of the information as possible. This is pretty common with most contemporary designs and they all share the same flaw if they use a first order Xo. Crossing the woofer to the tweeter at about 2kHz a first order Xo will only have the tweeter down -6dB at 1,000Hz and down -10dB at approximately 700Hz. On the other side of the Xo, the woofer will be running up to a -6dB point of 4,000Hz and a -10dB of about 6,000Hz. That gives an overlap of about (700, 1400, 2800 5600, 11,2000) four and one half octaves. That's four and one half octaves that are being reproduced by both a 8" to 10" poly woofer and a 3/4" to 1" aluminum dome tweeter. The speed, tonal balance and dispersion of those two drivers will not be similar. Not to mention the tweeter and the woofer are operating well outside their bandwidths. Now, eventually there is some mechanical roll off of the drivers themself, but that is usually accompanied by irregular frequency response and a significant increase in distortion product along with an increase in current required to drive the voice coil as it heats up. I'm sure you know what other consequences can arise from first order Xo's. In the case of your Thiels there will be a complicated frequency compensation network built into the Xo to make up for the small errors that are inevitable when you run drivers past their physical limits. Add in a baffle step compensation and that amounts to lots of resistors, caps and inductors all in a series/parallel configuration. That amounts to a speaker, like the Thiels, that eats up 100 watt amplifiers for brunch and drives some listeners from the room. On the other hand a fourth order Xo can give you a phase response that can be corrected by simply reversing the connection of the drivers relative to one another. The steeper roll off has the advantage of getting the drivers out of the way more quickly to keep the sound of one driver working to a maximum. This combined with the mechanical roll off of the drivers can offer some significant benefits to a simple design. Of course, a first order design is even more dis-advantageous when the design becomes a three or four way design as in some of the big Thiels. Second order Xo's can offer better step response than many other designs. I really haven't figured out why a third order would be that beneficial since a fourth would normally do as well and have less problems in a home loudspeaker. A first order Xo will be phase correct, but not necessarily time correct. So what's the advantage of one without the other? The point is there are many Xo designs and they all have their advantages and disadvantages. To get so hung up on a Xo design that you declare there IS one best way to design home audio speakers, is foolish if not downright stupid. If you have found you like the sound of speakers which utilize a first order design, that is well and good. To declare all other designs inferior is not in the least what I consider making any real sense. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 139 Registered: Apr-05 | "First, we have to understand that many, many speaker manufacturers are not much more than speaker assemblers" Jan, again, not talking cheap crap.......i'm expecting designers of home audio speakers to know what they are doing. "Second order Xo's can offer better step response than many other designs" yeah, better than 3rd, 4th or higher order but not better than 1st order. As far as your second order design: This is a POLARITY INVERSION, which many try to tell you "well that is just 180 degrees". Yeah- on sine waves. Tell the drummer pounding outwards on the kick-drum skin that you are going to make his snare drum whack SUCK IN, and also that his kick drum will get there THREE FEET late because the speaker has the woofers around the side of the cabinet, time delayed even more by the crossover. And then try to explain that NONE of that kick drum's harmonics will be arriving three feet late- only the lowest fundamental. The higher tones will arrive sooner, so his pulsing rhythm will sound lagging, and less powerful. And that his "sucking snare" will likely sound hollow. And the crack of his stick on the snare head will be of positive polarity, AND arriving a few inches sooner than the sound from the sucking-in skin. Smoothness of power response in a first order design is about the same as higher orders, although this is usually botched by choice of crossover point (any style crossover) and by using spaced, double drivers in one frequency range. Biggest deviation one would see when "power response" is poor, is a hollow-sounding voice range past about 30 degrees off axis to the sides. For those not familiar with this term, it was coined to describe how it might be good in some circumstances for a speaker to put out a "smooth amount" of acoustic power per frequency into the room- pretty vague, considering the "results" were an integration of the output at various angles over a complete hemisphere, which could be skewed by having a tweeter very bright on-axis and dull elsewhere- just to mention one of the flaws in "integrating". This method was championed first by the AR LST, Design Acoustics, and the Walsh driver, and now the current omni designs. It is better to say that we want a speaker to have a smooth dispersion w/frequency off to the sides (no holes), tilted downwards in the highs so we don't send too many highest-highs to the sidewalls or wall behind the speakers. "On the other hand a fourth order Xo can give you a phase response that can be corrected by simply reversing the connection of the drivers relative to one another" No, thats a 2nd order design. They have to wire at least one of the drivers out of phase to avoid a 3db null at the crossover frequency. A 4th order crossover has a full cycle of lag between the drivers. Woofer and tweeter start at the same time, but stop one full cycle apart. But yeah, we can't hear that right? Yet audiophiles worry about the distortions caused by jitter in digital audio electronics which occur in a time domain centered on 1000 picoseconds. The "accepted" limits for the audibility of time/phase are in the range of 1ms, .001 second. That equates to 1,000,000,000 picoseconds. THAT is audable, but 360 degrees of phase shift from a speakers crossover isn't? Nothing in the recording chain nor in the playback system splits the musical signal like the speakers crossover. How much time delay is imposed by the 4th order crossover? Exactly one full period of the crossover frequency. If that was 400Hz, then the time delay between the two drivers is 1/400th second, or 2.5 milliseconds, which is ~32 inches for time of travel, acoustically. You just smeared the guitar spatially by ~32 inches, front-to-rear, and transiently by 2.5ms, across its 400Hz range (just above middle C). It sounds like the upper strings of the guitar are "leading" the lower strings, or that there is more pick on the string. It also changes the wave envelope, which means a loss of clarity. And all that means it changes the musical message. Of course, your all saying, in so many words, "You can't hear that" |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5666 Registered: May-04 | I'm not sure if you can't or won't read what I posted or simply refuse to comprehend what I posted. You've given a good account, though hardly comprehensive of all the possibilities, of some of the problems introduced by a few other Xo types. Now, what's your point? You totally ignored what I said about disadvantages to a first order Xo. You seem to think designers should know what they are doing and I recall hearing many loudspeakers where everyone in the room wondered if the designer did know what they were doing. Besides skill alone cannot eradicate the inherent problems that a first order design brings to any set of drivers. As I pointed out the more drivers, the more problems. Jim Thiel is a respected speaker designer rather well committed to first order Xo's. Yet for every person who enjoys the sound of a Thiel loudspeaker, there are a dozen who find his designs headache inducing. Just because of the first order Xo? Hardly, but that contributes to the problems people hear in his designs. And that includes people who do not come into a store just to listen to Xo's. I think what you've managed, as much as anything, is to reinforce my statement that there are inherent trade offs to be made with any design. If we cannot honestly agree to that basic principle, there is no reason to discuss this further. I do not disagree with your assessments of the various Xo types. Though I think the swipe at other audiophile phobias shows a person grasping for whatever craggily point they can hold on to. People hear what people hear. To explain why some designs strike a chord with any one individual is not an easy thing to do. To declare there IS one right way to design a speaker may make you feel better about what you own. However, if you cannot see how digmatic that statement is, then why bother discussing it with us poor ignorant fools who may not care for what you prefer. You are just another evangelist at that point and you are one among the many shouting into the wind. PB, why don't you step down off your soap box for one minute. If you seriously think there are no problems introduced by a first order design (whether, in your opinion, they are as serious or not as other types), I have nothing else to say to you and will merely pass over your posts since you are stuck in one spot and one ideology and there is no discussion with someone like that. Shall we carry on this conversation or are you convinced there IS only one way to design a loudspeaker and see no problem with that statement? |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 194 Registered: Apr-05 | Paul Bayless wrote: ". . . what i'm saying is all speakers that are NOT 1st order crossovers smear the original waveform. Some much worse than others. It is entirely possible to build a first order unit that is poorly designed, but it is impossible to design a higher order system that reproduces what goes into it." Assuming what you say is accurate, could it be that there are some 2nd or 3rd order X-over speakers that smear the original waveform so slightly that the resulting distortion is inaudible? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5676 Registered: May-04 | Yes, if you are not sensitive to what these Xo's are doing to the signal. |
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Bronze Member Username: BarbaraPost Number: 12 Registered: Sep-05 | Jan Paul sucks, the man has no imagination at all, unlike you you're my hero you rally know your stuff on loudspeakers and sub bass speakers as for a sexy woman like me what's powerful specifications, and Paul's just turned to off completely. Yours truly, Barbara |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 140 Registered: Apr-05 | Barbara, personal attacks are childish. Grow up. JimV asks "could it be that there are some 2nd or 3rd order X-over speakers that smear the original waveform so slightly that the resulting distortion is inaudible?" No Jim, ALL 2nd order crossovers have 180 degree's of phase shift and all 4th order designs have 360 degree's of phase shift. Why some sound worse was pointed out so well by Jan above; that is some designers use way too many parts. Jan, your concerns appear to be drivers operating beyond their frequency range. This is not a problem if the designer uses the very best drivers, carefully and properly matched BEFORE any crossover is implemented. Using cheaper drivers, no matter what the crossover, is degrading to the sound and an insult to the intellegence of those who purchase the product and to the music deserving better. You are concerned that 1st order designs use too many parts in the crossover. The three brands I mentioned (Audio Machina, Harmonic Precision and GMA) use very minimal crossover parts. In fact, according to the GMA site, the crossover consists of one Sonic cap film capacitor and one Solen litz inductor, hardly what one could call too many crossover parts. I would like to remind you that for every order of crossover a designer uses, the number of parts increase also. The oft used 2nd order and 4th order designs have a 3db glitch at the crossover point(s) requiring even more parts to "smooth it out" and the former requires at least one driver to be wired out of phase over it's entire operating region. JimV, wire your tweeter's backwards (plus to minus) and then ask yourself if it's audable. Thiel uses a lot of parts in it's designs and this may be why some people find them hard to live with. Did that cover your concerns, Jan? It's entirely possible to screw up a 1st order design and many have and will continue to do so. The math is quite difficult and the work that goes into the design, testing and implementation is monumental. Having said that, hearing one done right is nothing short of breathtakingly real. Isn't that what this hobby is all about? |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 199 Registered: Apr-05 | So, I gather from what you're saying that if you were to blindly and randomly listen to twenty pairs of speakers (ten of which had 1st order crossovers and ten of which did not), you could identify which ten speakers had the 1st order crossovers and which did not 100% of the time. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 977 Registered: Jun-05 | I asked you once Bayless get your as. off of my thread its for a review,thats why I started it dont you understand that damn you are low on comon sence, so get your measurement and your non speaker listening as. off of my thread you f!ck!ng stupid S.O.B. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1916 Registered: Mar-05 | hey TW, when you get the Lings in please start a new thread for them, this one is getting very long and off-topic. I'm looking forward to hearing your evaluation! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 979 Registered: Jun-05 | I guess so ill start a new thread,because this argument coming from Bayless a guy who has heard none of these speakers is just plain stupid,Jan quit giving this idiot a lifeline,before he really thinks knows what the hell he is talking about. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 141 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, nice reply. Can't talk the talk, so you, like Barbara, revert to childish games. This is a free forum, I AM a registered poster (unlike many others) and i'll post where I damn well see fit untill I see "Tawaun's E-Coustic's Forum" on the homepage. Guess it upsets you that you can't talk audio on this level. I'm sorry. I'd tell you to read more, but we know how you feel about reading. And, for the third and final time Tawaun, i'm asking you to provide me some math or physics based proof that I don't know what i'm talking about. I take it you have been unsucessfull in that regard to this point, or you would have happily posted it. I think it's drivel such as you post, with the SDATS being the greatest thing since sliced bread, then the Epiphony's that are both misleading and confusing. You claim my factual posts are fiction, yet you have provided no one with proof of this, thus making yourself sound worse for the wear. You kiss your mom with that mouth? Have a nice day. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 983 Registered: Jun-05 | Look B!tch my mom is of no concern to you,and no im not gonna elaborate on your measurement mumbo jumbo look dont you get it knowone on this forum takes you seariously,and for the last time im gonna tell you YOU HAVENT LISTENED TO ANY OF THESE SPEAKERS!!!therefore you dont know how they sound you damn clown!you have to listen to speakers before you judge them,do you understand you meatheaded moron.Now STOP HASSELING ME with your rediculous thoughts of what a speaker should be when you dont even listen to them.If you know so much about speaker design why dont you called up Aerial Accoustics and tell them they should replace Micheal Kelly with you because the 20T should be a first order design.Yeah right you know more than him and your reading reviews of speakers and spending money on Stereophile magazines to read about him and other designers.If your so good make your own speaker, Tim did so why dont you surely you know more than him if you know more than Micheal Kelly,look idiot get your head out of the clouds and start listening to some speakers before you think your the next Richard Vandesteen. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 142 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, like I said before, I seen the website and i'm not as impressed as you are. Looks like the Epiphony's are using a Tang Band woofer 5.5" and a .75" Seas tweeter. MDF cabinet, so your going to have resonances. Crossover is 3rd order on tweeter and 2nd order on the woofer at 4K. Using these drivers and crossover I would expect a veiled sound in the midrange and a recessed sound. You'll lose some high frequency detail because of the crossover and they will throw a high image (high meaning frequently above the top of the cabinets) Keep in mind a microphone can only hear distance, not height. Thats the crossover screwing up time coherency. The sloped front baffle will effect certain frequencies as you move away from them, so I would suggest a nearfield listening position. Buy some real solid speaker stands and play with the tilt up and down in your room. You'll know when you get it right. Other than that i'm sure they are a huge step up from your last purchase, so your moving in the right direction. I don't care if you believe me or not. I don't sleep with you. You did however, get me going with your "These will dust your Green Mountains" comment. Comparing a $600.00 speaker to one of the premier designs anywhere was silly. Calm down.....your going to have high blood pressure from your hobby. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 995 Registered: Jun-05 | I work in audio you idiot,and who says the Green Mountains are a premeire design,you well thats deffenetly not saying a whole lot, if you are the one who is their messenger boy,maybe you can do something about that dreadful website they have, come on thats probably the reason knowone takes them very seriously talk about SDAT GMs website is worse than theirs as a matter of fact their website is the worse I've ever seen in buisness history. Its you again talking about how some speaker is probably gonna sound,when are you gonna learn Bayless that listening to the speaker is the most important thing you little computer geek.So who do think knows more about audio me or you? let me give a example between the 2 of us,You: you read lots of measurements but thats where it ends with you,here you go to the website and you say that is enough for me,and you havent heard any of the speakers that you rave about and you havent heard any of the great speakers that you say are inaccurate any speakers period for that matter so, what does that say about your audio knowlege?Ok now heres me, Me:I work everyday at a highend audio store have been in sales for about 7 years and I was born into audio with my Dads Ohm Walsh 2s and Carver Amps,Nakamechi Tape deck,Teac reel to reel,Benjamin Mirachord turntable with a Shure cartridge,and a Pioneer Quad preamp,your probably older than me and its probably way out of your league knowlege capacity,Humm thats just my childhood years thats better than your resame right now.But lets move on Bayless Ive owned over 75 pairs of speakers more than you have read specs and measurements on, I work with them everyday when ever I want I take gear home I can take it home with me when ever I wat to,Oh yeah heres one for you we were the only store in Cincinnati that sold Meadowlark oh what do you know a company who prides themselves on first order croossovers and time and phase coherancey I listened to them everyday the Totems we carried used to blow them out the water everyday the only thing they had going for them was their pretty cabinet.They were in buisness for a shorter time than Green mountain and had more popularity than them,for one thing they had a better website,but any way Bayless wheres Meadowlark now oh and wheres Dunlevy the best of your favorite kind of speakers bread gone out of buisness.So lets see that leaves Thiel and Vandersteen oh and you guys Green Mountain left looks like guys are the only ones standing on one baby toe now,so Bayless lets analyze something here if your favorite design the First order X-over and time an phase Coherant design is so much the audio standard than why are the other 12,000 speaker manufactures not? And you guys are dropping off like flies at this pace your prescious First Order Xover and Time and Phase Coherant designs will be extinct like the T-Rex in less than 8 years.Bayless get over it buy a speaker first before you start judging by reading mearsurement you ignorant bookworm,see thats the difference between me and you Im like that star Quaterback throwing for 300 yard games everyweek your the 3rd string that doesent even get take a snap at practice praying and waiting for the other 2 quaterbacks to get hurt,where are you always at, on the sidelines standing next to the coach with a clipboard in your hand waiting on some sick twisted Miracle so you can get in the game, swearing that your better than the Star QB when you have never takin a snap in your life or even ran a option play, all you've done is be a holder for the place kicker thats the only time you step on the field except when everyones gone with all the lights out siting there pissing and moaning feeling sorry for yourself saying how the coach is doing you wrong,but fact is that you didnt work hard enough and thats why your in the position your in,well im the star so you would have been 2nd string anyway. All you have done was watch without paying admission.You get my drift Bayless you gotta get in the game before you can be in the game,Bayless have a good day on the Computer you Sideliner!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 144 Registered: Apr-05 | I was going to be finished with you Tawaun, but not after that completely self embarrasing post. YOU work in high end audio? Not possible. Anyone who ever sold hi end audio would be wise enough to NOT purchase SDAT speakers. Anyone working in retail audio has the opportunity to purchase, often below dealer cost, speakers from most all retail companies that store carries. Am I right Jan? Yet you purchase, in order, SDATS; then Epiphony's. Odd, don't ya think? Both mail order units? Odder still is that if, big if here, you DO work in hi end, you would be ashamed of the SDAT purchase. Not Tawaun, you went in every post here like Paul Revere to proclaim them the greatest thing since sex. Makes no sense Tawaun. Why not take advantage of purchasing a hi end speaker at or below cost from one of your product lines rather than doing mail order? What do you tell your customers when they ask you "SO, Tawaun, which of these speakers you sell do YOU PERSONALLY OWN? Jan, how often do you get asked that question in retail sales? Anyone working in hi end retail would be able to at minimum, carry on an intellegent audio conversation with someone as completely ignorant about audio as you claim I am, yet you cannot do so without resorting to childish name calling, etc. Jan Vigne can carry on an intellegent conversation, but not you. Jan works retail audio. I BELIEVE that. You? Not a chance. Now lets examine this statement: "So lets see that leaves Thiel and Vandersteen oh and you guys Green Mountain left looks like guys are the only ones standing on one baby toe now" That statement alone tells me you are so far removed from hi end audio you it's silly to mention your name and hi end in one sentence. You, the self proclaimed hi end "guru" can name a mere 3 first order companies. There are MANY MANY others. Guess you never heard of Anthony Gallo Accoustics, to name just one? Not only are they first order, but quite popular and sold in a great many hi end shops. Guess YOUR hi end shops don't sell them, huh? The REAL hi end speaker builders of the world do not look for dealers based on how many units they can sell. Rather they base their dealers on knowledge, the ability to educate consumers and integrity. I have no clue what you were trying to accomplish with your football analogy, but as long as you brought it up, you remind me of the reserve defensive back who spouts off in the newspaper all week about how you are going to shut down the other teams star reciever, only to face him on sunday and give up 4 long passes for touchdowns. Proclaiming ownership of "But lets move on Bayless Ive owned over 75 pairs of speakers more than you have read specs and measurements on" is a perfect example of your total lack of understanding audio gear. One would think that after the first , say 25 pair, you would have known "figured it out" People who don't understand how a hi-fi system is built generally exhibit the same tendancies as you just described by purchasing speaker after speaker after speaker. And if we consider your latest purchases are an indication of how much you have learned, not just from the experience of owning over 75 pair of speakers but also your tenure as a knowledgable HI END audio salesman, well sir, your resume speaks for itself. It pains me to think that YOU may be offering "advise" to others parting with hard earned cash looking to purchase audio gear. People like Jan Vigne have forgot more than you currently know about audio. Might be wise for you to read more, listen and learn rather than fighting, cussing and arguing at this point Tawaun. I do wish you well, in spite of yourself. You and I do agree on one thing though Tawaun, "lets move on Bayless" |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 206 Registered: Apr-05 | C'mon fellows, don't hold back. Say what's on your mind. Really. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 997 Registered: Jun-05 | Quit riding Jans coatale this isnt about him,this is about you and your distorted knowlege.I can curse at you all I want Your not one of my customers,my customers have a mind of their own they would never rant on and on like you do,they are gamers they dont sit around on the sidelines like you do.Its not about me carrying on a intellegent conversation with you,first of all your not intellegent,if you were you would have noticed more than just a first order crossover you idiot,look you dont know what the hell your talking about again their are plenty of speakers with just first order crossovers.Let me explain this to you again since you are such an infant in audio knowlege,your favorite company Green Mountain is a First order,Phase and time coherant company.So is Thiel,Vandersteen,and so was Dunlavy,and Meadowlark.All Anthony Gallos speakers aren First order crossovers,look you little People magazine reader,you are not bright enough to match wits with me you little Whiner.Here is you oh god he wont have a intellegent conversation with me well boo hoo get over,let me ask you a question how can I have a inttelegent conversation with you when I dont feel you are smart?That alone should make you not want to talk to me,How many times have I called you a idiot?Shouldnt that tell you I dont respect you or your opinions or your stupid first order theories?Doesent that show you I dont like you and im not fond of you at all?Dont you know that I think you are a loser?Whats a matter with you Bayless dont you get it do you have a clue or do I have to keep telling you over and over again?And dont use my football anology thats like Weird Al Yankaviech making Eat it trying to copy Beat it, stop trying to ruin a classic.Look Jan doesent respect you either so stop trying to get him to cosign for you,get your own juice.Now quit stalking me I know you are trying to make a name for yourself on this forum,but you have to earn it didnt your coach ever tell you that?oh well probably not you were on the chess team wernt you?Look man im gonna leave this alone,and I suggest you do the same,I am not interested in conversing with you,so stop before you fall even more behind. |
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Bronze Member Username: SteelhrdPost Number: 27 Registered: Jul-05 | Hey Tawaun i was on the chess team. And the football team and the track team and an army ranger please don't talk bad about us geeky chess team guys lol. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 146 Registered: Apr-05 | Tell me Tawaun, what Hi-end store do you work for? I travel extensively....perhaps I could pay you a visit. Just the stores name and address will do. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 147 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun... You call me names. You make feeble attempts to insult my intellegence. You claim superiority over me in terms of audio knowledge. This troubles me Tawaun. I feel the need to defend myself. So, defend myself I shall. I'm introducing what i'll refer to from this point forward as "T.T." or Tawaun Tests and the questions will consist of things any "hi end" audio salesman should be able to rattle off in his/her sleep. Novice audio folks won't have a clue as to what i'm talking about, but whiz kids such as yourself will have no trouble. I will post each T.T. question in every forum here, to make it easier for all to play along. You in Tawaun? Ready for T.T.#1? I'll give you a hint: you won't find the answer to this in any stereophile mag. The answer to question number one can only be found in multiple manufacturers technical white papers....of which I have read thousands. Tawaun, did you happen to read the old RCA papers from the 50's? They were researching the pro's and con's of incorporating the speaker into the negative feedback loop. Naw, thats not the question.Oh....woops. I read too much. I do recall you saying that, indeed. Is this an UN-FAIR advantage Tawaun? I wondered that aloud, but then I re-read your last post and the ststment you made.....what was it again.....looking.....oh here it is, and I quote "I work everyday at a highend audio store have been in sales for about 7 years and I was born into audio" makes you more than amply equiped to answer. You can cancel your subscription to T.T. at anytime Tawaun, providing you agree to ONE minor thing: LEAVE MY NAME OUT OF YOUR RANTS!!!!!! You can do this either publically or with a private message that I promise not to post publically UNLESS you violate the agreement. Yeah or Nay Tawaun? Wanna play? I SURE AS HELL DO. Let me know Tawaun. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 999 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah right Bayless didnt you read my previous post about how I feel about you?Now what makes you think I want a visit from you? Look man we dont sell Green Mountains,so find you another store to audition them at,they are not up to par to us,now run along and go pester someonelse.I have nothing else to say to you,so lets just leave it at that. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 148 Registered: Apr-05 | Don't much care how you FEEL about me, TAWAUN. What I DO care about is YOU trying to SLAM MY NAME here in this forum. Your about to find out how much this BOTHERS ME. Ready for T.T.#1 ???? |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1001 Registered: Jun-05 | For a guy that reads as much as you,it still hasnt sunk in your mind what I said in my previous posts.If it will make you feel any better Bayless,I dont wanna play your game,havent I been clear enough for you I dont want to assciate with you?Sorry guys this is certainly not how I wanted to become a gold member. |
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Bronze Member Username: SteelhrdPost Number: 28 Registered: Jul-05 | The sad thing is between Paul and jan I WAS LEARNING A LOT. please guys skip the dramatics and discuss xo's again. I don't kow squat compared to you guys but i am learning from you while it may have been off topic it was informative once the diatribe was removed. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5766 Registered: May-04 | RS - Go to this thread and post a question; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/156140.html. It got waylaid a while back by some personal squabbles elsewhere on the forum. It was meant to be informative and not argumentative. Everyone is free to contribute under the simple guidelines that arguments are off limits. Obviously only the administrator can keep a post off the thread. I just asked that we all be civil enough to provide information in a well thought out manner and not by screaming at one another. As I said, the thread has been dormant for a while. I'm certain you can get some answers from that area if we all keep our wits about us. Also check out this thread that was started over a year ago and petered out too soon; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/56618.html |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 149 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun is a piece of work, huh folks? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5781 Registered: May-04 | We all are, P.B. |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 17 Registered: Aug-04 | What a horrible thread. Some of you folks should be ashamed of yourselves. The arrogance is sickening. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1002 Registered: Jun-05 | I actually was saving it for a review of the 2 listed above,but Bayless came on here and tyred to ruin it and blatenly attacked me so I had to respond,and im gonna leave it at that oh and for anyone else who didnt like my content on this thread just look thru some of the posts on this forum and its more content from others also,and Bayless you brought this on yourself.Jan the thread was meant to be dormant until i got the Lings for the review,it didnt give him any right to come on the thread and reck it and discredit the Lings and the Epiphonys 2 speakers he hadnt heard or heard about and then to tell me I didnt know what I was hearing,because of measurements or first order crossovers,which the Lings has and he was unaware of it.He has knowlege about anything he said. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5800 Registered: May-04 | Tawaun - "He has knowlege about anything he said" You know what, Tawaun? I've shared a few bottles of wine with some friends at dinner, and maybe that's the problem, but that sentence makes no sense to me. Sorry, but I think I'm going to have to have you explain that one, Tawaun. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 216 Registered: Apr-05 | Jan, please don't tell me that when you and your friends were drinking the wine, you all were also eating cheese and listening to bookshelf speakers? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5802 Registered: May-04 | Well, we did have some Parmagiano-Reggiano, some salumi, some bruschetta and some tomatoes with shrimp. But, no, we were not eating any bookshelf speakers. Nor were we listening to any for that matter. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1004 Registered: Jun-05 | Measurements tell many things,but they dont tell you how a speaker sounds,they may be able to tell certain characteristics to say a speaker doesent sound good because it is not a first order crossover or because its not flat at 3k thtas a load rat crap, ultimately the sound is what counts the most. Many speakers that dont measure great,but they sound very good indeed.Every speaker that is designed and tested at the great chamber in Canada doesent sound good.So Jan would you rather have a speaker that measured good but does not sound well in the real world or vice versa?So whats next from Bayless or anyone who beleives him he already said the Green Mountains are better than a few super speakers,I guess the GMs are gonna be better than the Wilson Alexandria X-2s next,just because they measure better or because they are a first order crossover,if these kind of rants continue CV Paul will be a choirboy compared to this guy,and do I have to repeat it again HE HAS NOT HEARD ANY OF THESE SPEAKERS,HE DOESENT LISTEN TO ANY OF THEM HE JUST READS THEIR MEASUREMENTS IN STEREOPHILE.Now if people have a hard time understanding why I dont take this guy serious at all,I dont know what to tell you or I have a idea join the PAULS CLUB,now im thru with this subject and Bayless and who ever else wants to support that BULLSH1T theory. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 152 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, I brought this upon myself? Your comments continue to astound. Allow me to re-post my original comment here that you claim "brought it on myself" "Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 04:57 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tawaun A.Williams, trust me, there are "monitors" out there that will not only change your mind, but BLOW your mind as well. If you ever get the chance to listen to any of the following "monitors" please do so. Audio Machina's Ultimate Monitor Green Mountain Audio Callisto's Harmonic Precision Caravelles You'll be picking your jaw back up off the floor. All first order units. All in another league. These three companies should be on your short list for new speakers. Not cheap, but worth every penny. All three of these would be "keepers" effectively ending your search for replacements or, floorstanders." I then asked about the SDAT speakers you went on and on about here a while back. Your reply was as follows: Paul get your stupid as. off of my thread you are only here to try to start a fight,dont try to educate me on bookshelfs,Ive heard more speakers then you have seen in a Stereophile magazine,so you can save your little SDAT coments for someonelse.I have one question for you have you heard the Epiphonys?If you havent then shut your mouth!" We then had a few verbal exchanges that basically proved you don't know your A** from a hole in the ground. Unless you desire more verbal sparring, i'd suggest, as I have several times in the past, that you SHUT UP! Your ego is enormous. Too bad you don't know one tenth of what you THINK you know. Wanna discuss the advantages or disadvantages of nested, multiple negative feedback loops for a while? Then Tawaun, you deny that the sound characteristics I mentioned about your Epiphony's are not accurate? I bet they were pretty much spot on. Oh, and as far as the GMA VS Wilson Alexandria thing? No contest Tawaun. GMA Continuum 3's hands down. Even YOU could hear that difference. Who in the hi end market claims Wilson is a "super" speaker? Check out the audioperfectionist.com and see what he says about Wilson. He accepts no advertising $$ and tells it like it is. And what does he say, Tawaun? He says only speakers designed using a first order crossover can be accurate reproducers of music. Have ya heard that before Tawaun? Refuse to believe the truth. Only you suffer from that decision. |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 21 Registered: Aug-04 | It may not be my place to say, but you're both completely out of line. There's no legitimate reason for the arrogant, pompous approach taken by PB. Specifications and design are certainly very important in determining how a piece of gear will sound, but there are many wonderful sounding speakers that are not First Order Crossovers. So you spend your time scouring the internet for White Paper/Specifications, good for you! But don't think you can know how a speaker sounds, just by Specs/White Paper. Even if technically speaking " only speakers designed using a first order crossover can be accurate reproducers of music". Listening to gear will determine whether your individual ears love them, or not. In many cases, technically speaking.........does not guarantee a good or accurate sounding speaker. There are too many variables and contributing factors. What is "accurate" anyway? Do you know how the artist and producer wanted the record to sound? Do you know what their intentions were? People in this hobby usually want speakers that they themselves can listen to and live with. Speakers that appeal to their individual taste, preferences and they are comfortable with. Who are you to go around shooting down everyone's speaker choices and making derogatory remarks about the individual and his/her choice in gear!?!?!? If you are truely trying to educate people in the technical nuances of speaker design, there is undoubtedly a better way to discuss the issue, other than by personal attacks, insults, childishness and arrogant pontifications. Maybe you should try being polite, tactful and a bit sensitive in your approach. Everyone's ears are different and not everyone hears things exactly the same way. Everyone has their own personal tastes and preferences in sound. Instead of you arrogantly telling people what they should be auditioning and listening to, maybe you should try making polite suggestions and share your thoughts and experience in a respectful and thoughful manner. In many cases people need to go through their own process and progression in learning about this hobby and learning what suits their ears, their tastes, their budget and their listening area the best. For all I know your comments about First Order Crossovers may in fact be correct, from a technical standpoint. But I have spoken to and read the words of many knowledgeble "experts" in the field; some DIYers....some designers.....some "experts", and to man they all have stated that every design has it's pros and cons. Every design has it's sacrifices. No one design is perfect and nor is any one design for everyone. So where does that leave us? As for Tawaun. There really is no need to respond to people with profanity, insults and other rude comments, regardless of what they are doing or saying. That is not a mature approach to it all. I for one love to discuss the gear and this hobby and when people discuss things like adults, there is a lot to learn. Sorry if I rambled on for too long, but I felt it needed to be said. |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | ahhh! A refreshing post. The best one I have read in this forum in a long long time. Thank you NMyTree |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2074 Registered: Mar-05 | Tawaun, where's that Lings review??? Surely they must've arrived by now? |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 537 Registered: Dec-03 | I hope when Tawaun is ready to comment on the Lings he will do so in a new thread. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2079 Registered: Mar-05 | Agreed! |
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Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 43 Registered: Aug-05 | Ditto |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1005 Registered: Jun-05 | Its coming real soon guys,and yes it will be on a new thread,as you know Tim I was saving this thread for that review it wont be a shootout between the Lings and the Epiphonys,it will be Lings whole review.NMyTree I didnt mean for it to get out of hand like that,but Bayless with his one sided silly knowlege,what took it over the top for me was he had a coment for each and everyone of these speakers and he hasnt not one of them,not even his favorite speakers the Green Mountains,now thats sad,thats all I have to say. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 154 Registered: Apr-05 | NMyTree, your point would be well taken if not for one small detail. Go back and re-read this thread and when your done reading this one, read the one tittled "The importance of floor towers" and read the comments directed at myself from one Tawaun A Williams, without provocation. The man flat out said I didn't know what I was talking about and I was a quote "Moron" Not sure where your from, but here in Minnesota when someone calls you names and insults your intellegence, there are always reprocussions. I gave poor picked on Tawaun opportunities of repraisal, but each time he responded with more cussing, name calling and continued assertion that I did not know what i'm talking about when it comes to audio. Non of these things can be confused as "polite, tactful and a bit sensitive" in approach. THIS, sir will ALWAYS result in nothing more or nothing less than an assault on the perpetrator. One does not spend decades thirsting for knowledge, reading EVERYTHING audio related I could get my hands on, listening to everything I could possibly hear, working with designers, engineers, musicians and working in retail audio for years, questioning why a certain piece of equpment sounds more like real music and studying everything audio related only to allow someone like a Tawaun A Williams to negate all that. If thats what your expecting, your talking to the wrong guy. Wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much if he would have had ONE thing constructive to add to the conversation. Nothing but name calling, cussing and "posturing" on his part. So, I challenged his so called "expert" knowledge. He failed miserably. I challenged him on three seperate occasions to prove just ONE of my posts wrong via math or physics. Nothing but more trash talk, cussing and name calling. Yet he continued his claim of superior knowledge and he continued to assert I knew nothing about audio. He is no expert. Far far from it. One comment on your question "What is "accurate" anyway? Do you know how the artist and producer wanted the record to sound? Do you know what their intentions were?" Well, NMT, what is accuracy? To me, accuracy in a speaker is putting out exactly what went in. Nothing more....nothing less. Again, at the risk of flames galore, I assert that ONLY a first order speaker can reproduce what went into it without changing the complex waveform of the music. I encourage any argument on this as the math shows this to be the case quite clearly. I have no doubt do it yourselfers would not concede this point. They simply do not have the knowledge. Neither do the vast majority of consumer manufacturers. In a properly executed first order design, you must use the very best drivers. Those are costly. More cost means one of two things: higher retail or lower profits. Higher retail is not generally desired because of the competition factor. Lower profits means a smaller house in Malibu, also unacceptable. In designing a well executed first order speaker you must also understand time domain physics and apply it to the design. How many people alive on this planet can say they can do that? Yet time after time the question comes up "Why, if first order designs are better, are there not more of them?" Also, when the vast majority of speaker designers utterly throw out integrity of the original waveform in their designs, why bother using better drivers? This would only allow the consumer to more easily hear the afore mentioned waveform destruction. If your among those supporting 2nd order or 4th order designs, can you explain to me why keeping the waveform, or the musical signal intact so that what goes IN to the speaker comes OUT the same is meaningless to you? Not one person has explained that one to me yet. Have a look at what a 2nd order or a fourth order crossover does to the musical waveform then tell me you wouldn't be able to hear the changes. Look for yourself here: http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb081999.htm Keep in mind 2nd order crossover, ALL of them have 180 degrees of phase shift and 4th order crossovers, ALL of them have 360 degree's of it as you look at the pictures. Thats at the crossover points. The amount of phase shift, or time delay changes with frequency as you move away from the crossover point(s) thus changing each and every note of music, but never changing all the notes the same. Can you honestly look at these graphs and tell me you would call the 80 degree phase shifted graph or the 120 degree/160/or the 270 degree phase shifted graphs accurate reproducers of the original musical signal? I have to shake my head and question who could? Keep in mind too, that the 2nd and 4th order designs include companies like Paradigm, B&W, Von Schweikart, Wilson, Ariel, Legacy, etc etc. Now, after looking at these graphs, can you more easily answer why you see, almost daily, comments like "Don't use this amp with these speakers" or "These speakers do jazz well, but not rock music"? A quote from the Soundstage article: "Where do phase shifts come from? The most common potential sources of phase shifts are: loudspeaker crossovers other than first-order crossovers, audio transformers in tube amplifiers, any inductance or inductors in the audio signal path, steep filters like those in the analog output stages of 16-bit/44.1kHz CD players/DACs, interstage transformers in tube or solid-state components, transformers anywhere else in the audio signal path. Fortunately for us, transformers can be tuned to minimize phase shifts in the main part of the audio frequency spectrum. It is quite difficult to eliminate phase shifts from output transformers in the low bass, but wavelengths there are long and some controlled phase shift is not that big of a deal down in the low frequencies. There's not much you can do about phase shifts from digital audio components, though the new higher sampling rates permit much gentler filter slopes which will lead to virtually no phase shifting. You really want to support the new higher-sampling-rate digital audio formats (24/96, DVD-Audio, and DSD/SACD) if for no other reason than they permit doing away with the nasty brick-wall filters most of us are living with in our current 16-bit/44.1kHz digital front-ends. Speaker cables and interconnects which contain fat "network boxes" are potential sources for phase shifting also. However, designers of these devices are, we must hope, savvy enough to tune the phase shifts well above or below the audio frequency spectrum. That leaves loudspeakers, where phase shifts run rampant in the marketplace. Look at test results in magazines where they measure phase response of loudspeakers. It is not unusual to see 90 to 180 degrees of phase shift in loudspeakers -- you will even see phase shifts greater than 360 degrees (one full cycle) if you watch for them. As audiophiles, we obsess over accuracy in our systems and spend $1000 to well over $10,000 for components and devices which improve the accuracy of our systems. In the figure above, there are instantaneous voltage differences between the two traces that are on the order of 25% to 40% of the peak-to-peak maximum. Audiophiles obsess over the precise position of loudspeakers. We measure within +/- one inch or less to get our speakers positioned perfectly. Yet look at the figure above. That first negative spike on the left represents the amount of time it takes sound to travel 2.5 feet (using 1100 feet/second as the speed of sound). You can see time shifts between the two traces which represent approximately one foot. Why do you obsess over moving your speakers to the exact correct position within one inch or even less if the speaker itself is introducing delays that amount to six inches to one foot of relative motion? I'm not saying that moving your non-time-aligned loudspeakers in increments of one inch or less isn't valuable. I'm saying that if those one-inch-or-less movements are valuable, how can we, as audiophiles, overlook other problems which are doing six inches or more shifting of apparent sound sources? In my opinion, this ought to bother audiophiles a lot more than it has up to now." Well said. Oddly enough though, this topic doesn't bother audiophiles as it should. It has the opposite effect, they argue and cuss and shoot the messenger because they don't like the message. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 414 Registered: Jul-05 | Paul, the problem isn't the physics of 1st order speakers. That is not what people are disputing. I think a lot of people do take issue with the fact that you state that 1st order is the only way to make an accurate loudspeaker. Keep in mind that more than a few of us have listened to live performances and have an idea of what things should sound like. We have bought speakers which sound good to us, and fairly are lifelike in their reproduction. It is a bit of a stretch for us when you say that our speakers heavily deform the music we listen to when we do have something to refer to. The second problem is that while yes, a first order x-over can produce an "ideal" speaker, there is no such thing as an ideal speaker or an ideal listening space. Unless you are in a heavily treated room, you will still suffer from reflections; even if they come after the original signal, it will still "smear" the sound. As far as the speaker itself goes, I think most people can agree that we are looking for a full range system, one that can reproduce organ music to violins, kick drums to the bleeding edge of an electric guitar. There are two ways to obtain this; a sub-sat system and a full range speaker. Adding a subwoofer will reduce the benefits of a 1st order x-over; a single full range, time aligned speaker is possible, but prohibitively expensive for the majority of people. Also on the topic of cost, you bring up speakers like the Callisto. At over 2,000 dollars a pair, even this is fairly expensive for most of the folks on this forum. Then you come along and inform us the only way to get what the artist really intended is to have a speaker such as the Callisto. I personally find this to be an arrogant statement on your part, particularly since I like to think I have a general idea of what I like to hear and what sounds "accurate". Now generally speaking, I think you are a fairly well informed person; but I also think you need to give up your fantasy that the only way to connect with music is if it is heard through a speaker with a 1st order x-over. There are more than a few people who would disagree with you, and no physics in the world will invalidate the fact that people can connect with music played through a speaker with a 3rd order x-over. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1007 Registered: Jun-05 | DA my biggest beef with Bayless is he is going purely on white papers on all of these speakers he is putting down the man only reads the wavelength graphs and measurements he hast listened to any of them.That means DA if your speaker isnt a first order crossover to Bayless they are inacurate even if he hasnt heard them. The most irratating part to me is the speakers that he proclaims to be the ultimate pinnacle in audio the Green Mountains he hasnt heard them either or the other speaker companys of their kind.Bayless screw you and your white paper mumbo jumbo,what the hell speakers have you heard?And Bayless I've Heard the Wilson Alexandria X-2s and all the Green Mountains,unlike you , and I talked to Dave Wilson,I didnt talk to GMs designer he was missing in action just like their hideious website,and the GMs sounding better than the Wilsons any of the Wilsons for that matter even the Sophia,you must be joking and out of your Rabbit As. Mind,come on man get real,even if the Wilsons had a 10 order crossover they would turn the Green Mountains into the Blue Mountains,right before your very eyes and most importantly right before your ears something you should use instead of using every white paper you can flip a page on.DA you are one of the guys on this forum I respect when it comes to audio knowlege,how can a guy like Bayless who has never heard his favorite speaker and if he hasnt heard them how the hell can he rant on and on proclaiming they are best speaker in the world and every speaker that we all own are flawed and inacurate and ultimately unmusical.Bayless do you feel that we are more flawed than you?So I guess we all dont know what music sounds either?Oh and you know how our speaker sounds even though you havent heard them better than we do and we listen to them every day?DA how can a man like this who feels he is so much more superior to all of us yet he has nothing to prove that he is. This guy hasnt listened to anything not even his favorite speaker.Bayless or anyone who thinks like you how can you or anyonelse have a favorite speaker that they havent heard?Bayless do you think its like saying saying Jessica Alba is the most buetiful girl in the world and you wanna marry her because you seen her on tv and you think shes a great actress even though you havent met her and got to know her?Do you think choosing a speaker is more of a emotional choice or a technical choice?Im pretty sure I know the answer to that question, How can someone like this have any credability on this forum or any other forum for that matter.Bayless go over to audioreview im sure you feel they are more knowlegable than the people on this forum anyway.Take your white paper chants over there and your GM best speaker in the world raves to,Im 100% sure they wont feel like you do about GMs and especially your measurements over listening philosophy. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 156 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, you are an absolute fool. Since YOU have heard ALL the Wilson Speakers and ALL the GMA speakers and everything else under the sun (wink, wink, nod nod), explain the following head to head comparison with the Harmonic Precision Caravelle (another one of my big three) and the Wilson Maxx. NOT MY REVIEW K, FOOL, meaning, because you ARE such a dip, not MY WORDS! "I call this battle "David vs Goliath". Can a small manufacturer (and designer Brent Real) passionate about their product, design and build a $5000 monitor speaker that competes with the likes of Wilson Audio's MAXX, a well-funded, well advertised and reviewed, and superbly built product (at $40,000, it should be) designed by a legend in the audio world? Read on! The MAXX are a very revealing speaker and I have enjoyed the Wilson speaker for years. The Caravelle's were superior (not just a little better). Let me say it again for emphasis, "SUPERIOR" to my MAXX. The imaging was superior, the depth of soundstage was superior, the inner resolution was superior, the tweeter was beyond superior. Never had I heard strings and classical music sound so smooth and real...not etched like the MAXX tweeter can sound. The dynamics were superior. I could not believe a monitor could reproduce the dynamics of classical music so easily and clearly without strain or muddling of the mass strings. The quiet between instruments and the space between instruments was eerie; by far the best I have heard from any speaker from any manufacturer. The real test was reconnecting the MAXX again. I can honestly say the Caravelle's musical sound, imaging, soundstaging, and incredible sounding tweeter spoiled me. The MAXX sound big, bloated and flat across the soundstage, meaning they didn't have that in the room three dimensionality the Caravelles threw at me" Tawaun, Caravelles.....first order.....properly designed. Just like GMA and Audio Machina. YOU talked to Wilson huh? Must have made one hell of an impression on you, dude. You bought....oh yeah, SDATS followed by Epiphony's, BOTH cheap Mail order speakers. Listen to your Epiphony's and leave us alone to listen to REAL speakers. Do you REALLY wanna get into a "who knows more about audio, music and speaker design" pissing contest with me again Tawaun? You totally SUCKED at this last time we did it. I'm game. Let us once again provide E-coustics forum users with proof of how little Tawaun really knows. Fire away, Tawaun. |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Superior not superior, what a waste of time, which speakers do you own Paul B ? at the end of the day that is what really counts. Now, if your speakers are the best in the world (according to your tastes) then good for ya' but don't come here trying to talk people down just because we don't share your opinion. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1017 Registered: Jun-05 | Bayless you are really getting very redundant What do you know about the Epiphonys?how they measure is that it?So I guess you know more than me about them and I own them and listen to them everyday,is that what you think?Now Bayless how many times do I have to ask you this question,what do you own now and not what you want in the future,what are your present speakers,hell what it your entire setup?Bayless do you really think that $2295 for a pair of Green Mountains are a lot for some speakers?I think not $2295 is peanuts in audiophile terms,you know thats what all the guys in stereophile are that you read about so faithfully, lose to you again,what the hell are you talking about book boy,look man im not gonna ask you this sh1t again if you dont answer I guess it means that you dont know sh1t.Look you arrogant moron what hands on experance do you have listening to any of speakers that we have been discussing?Your pitiful I feel sorry for you.T he Green mountains let me guess you havent heard them have you?Look you F4UCKHEAD go to your local Botique store and listen to some damn speakers and then come back,with your own valid opinions of what you heard with your ears not some f4cking measurements out of a damn stereophile magazine,now stop pestering me and go out and audition some sh1t,and let me remind you how to audition since its something you have very little experiance with,always take your own music and listen alone if you can,make sure the system is set up properly,you got it Bayless I feel like im talking to 16 year old kid at BestBuy.Oh and dont forget the things I asked earlier in this post,later Bayless I hope you have a nice but how could a guy who doesent listen to speakers he only reads about them,you wouldnt know a piano if Nora Jones was at your house when you woke playing in your bedroom or a hot chick either like her you probably just read about them to dont you?that explains why you are such a bitter person,well both of those reasons. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 157 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, your comments have become so vague, so off topic and so rediculous they do not warrant a reply. Again, I'm finished talking to you. Prove me wrong Tawaun.......THEN we can talk ok? Till then..... Annonymous....it is not an opinion. It is a fact. Prove it wrong like I asked Tawaun to do........'till you do you too are unworthy of responding to. Got it guys? Do your homework, prove me wrong. Tawaun is a hi end audio salesman(wink,nod)....show us your stuff big T. Anonymous is anonymous for a reason. Good luck. |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Paul Brian-less I don't have to prove sh!t to you or anyone else, I could not care less about your believes, what you do or what you know. Obviously you are a very obsessed character not worthy of having any kind of debate. You are nothing more than a little grain of sand in this world and if you were to some extent as smart as you think you are you would see that you are pretty ignorant. You are in need of attention given that you want to prove to the world that you are "right" at any cost but the thing my little friend is that there is no right or wrong in this debate and only fools like you would be convinced to buy something based on specs only. You ask for answers but could not even respond to my very easy inquiry as to what kind of speakers do you own; now, you don't have to be a genius to answer that so I guess you don't answer for a reason. You can kiss my.. a s s... you retard. |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Yeah yeah I meant to say Paul Brain-less...oh well...you got the point did ya'? |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Tawaun, Sorry for hijacking your thread...no more posts from me replying to this boorish looney tooney, and you should do the same Ignore his mentally handicapped head. With every post all you do is feed his ego which in my opinion is not worth a penny. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1025 Registered: Jun-05 | Anon this thread is dead the Ling thread will be posted tomorrow.Hey Bayless I know you dont have any speakers worth while,so you probably should read the Ling review and you probably should get a pair and heres why yes they are a first order crossover and yes they are phase coherant,but thats not why so put your measurement tools away,its a great speaker and they are gonna make a lot of happy owners.So you better jump on the wagon before it leaves and get yourself a great speaker so you can enjoy yourself and put down the Stereophile magazine.Im out of here for good Bayless game over!!! |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 158 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun and Annonymous.......two of a kind. Both probably uneducated, picked on as kids, trying hard to be condescending to make up for their childhood trauma's and shortcomings in manhood, yet failing miserably. Can't prove me wrong...Tawaun or Annonymous can't... not a chance of that happening.....THAT isn't possible. Challenged Tawaun FOUR TIMES to come up with one, JUST ONE post of mine he can prove was wrong.......nothing but cussing, name calling...etc. Challenged "I don't have to prove sh!t to you or anyone else" annonymous. Same challenge.....same result. Well boys.... Hmmmm.....boys...that fits. Well boys, both of you keep talking out of your collective behinds saying i'm wrong and it's only my "opinion", so therefore it becomes incumbant upon BOTH of you to "prove i'm wrong or SHUT UP! "Tweedle Dum and Tweedle DUMBER cannot offer ANYTHING objective or substantial to the forum so they do as children do....revert to name calling. Isn't it past your bedtimes, boys? Can't talk audio with the me, may I suggest you look elsewhere? |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 23 Registered: Aug-04 | You know what? Your act is tired and old. It's not just in this thread, and it's not just with Tawaun or Anoynymous. After taking alook at your posts in other threads, it's obvious this is not an approach exclusive to these two guys. You consistently respond to people in this arrogant, pompous ....self-righteous tone and throw insults at people without provocation. And you have the audacity to accuse others of being "condescending " ??? Are you kidding me? Are you drunk or stoned? It is also clear to me now that most of what you post is either copy and pasted or lifted from someone else's articles or test results. So stop acting like your some kind of expert in the field and all this stuff is your own thoughts and words. I know now it is not. Yeah, you try hard to integrate other people's work and words into your own rambling paragraphs, but that's about it. There are a lot of Audio/Video related forums on the internet, and there are many brilliant, knowledgeble men who contribute to these forums. Men who are truely experienced and well-educated in this field. Most of these brilliant men use a very polite and diplomatic approach to sharing their knowledge and expertise. They need not place themselves on pedestals and denounce everyone around them as ignorants; in an attempt to share their knowledge and inform people. You P.B. give this hobby a bad name and you are the epitome of why so many people hate the word "Audiophile" and the kind of person the word represents. You embodie all the arrogance, elitism, snobbery and downright narrowmindedness the word implies. That's why to many people....."Audiophile" is a dirty word. Instead of sharing knowledge and experience in good faith and with goodwill, you proceed (in an attempt to stroke and reaffirm your fragile ego) to raise yourself above everyone else and look down your nose at them. On top of this, you insult, dismiss, denigrate and attack people and their audio equipment. Equipment that for the most part, you have never heard, but have seen some "specs". Do you have any idea how ridiculous, ignorant and oblivious you really are? You verbally chastise anyone who dares disagrees with you or quesions your so-called facts (as anyone seeking true knowledge should question you, as part of the process of learning) If you stuck to the science and facts, and simply shared this information with people in a showing of good intentions, it would be a different story. I know that at the heart of the science you provide (copy and paste), there is some truth. But after speaking to a few men who are true experts in the field (for decades), they supported my intial comment to you in my first post. There are no perfect designs...and no perfect speakers. Every design sacrifices in one area or another. They in fact concured that the First Order design does provide some beneficial elements along the lines of what you have said; but also added that the First Order design.....as any other design, introduces other problems and weaknesses. It's all about weighing the scales and deciding on the tradeoffs. But your consistent and neverending condescending tone and approach is sickening. You are a walking, talking, breathing parody/caricature of what most people disdain. Now please tell me.......What speakers do you currently own? I suggest you take a listen to (rather than reading the specs of) the Odyssey Epiphoneys and simply enjoy the music. Are they the best speakers in the world? Certainly not. There is no such thing...as the best in the world. While you're at it, take a listen to the Odyssey Lorelei speakers (as opposed to reading their specs)!!! You see, this hobby is about the love of music. While specs and design are of the most importance in making a speaker or any piece of gear, listening to music....for the love of music, is what it's all about. Try spending some time listening and put aside your specs for a little while. |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Hey Paul Brain-Less, Did you say something? I can't hear you! lol Living in your own little world...be my guess..idiot |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | *guest*..oh well |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1027 Registered: Jun-05 | NMyTree yes,yes the Lorelei a great great speaker it will be in my possesion for christmas.Bayless you are wrong dummy my 9 year old daughter knows that listening is the most important thing with speakers,I have been repeating this to you over and over. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 165 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, you repeat everything over and over and over and................you always fail to answer my technical questions. One global feedback loop or multiple feedback loops....which is better and why? Educate us T |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1053 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah sure,at least I dont copy things out of a book word for word like its your own experiance.Get real why should I answer any of your spec questions anyone can quote out of a book word for word.Do you think world class writers copy other authors work?No they dont they come up with their own ideas and stories.So do you know what that makes you Bayless?A fraud,a copy cat,a follower,you better learn to march to your own beat and quit taking John Atkinson word on specs for sound because that certainly doesent tell how a speaker performs in real life sitiations.Quoting somelses words or numbers does not make you smart and knowlegable,hands on experiance is the key in audio,so get your own ideas about what real sound is,music cant be measured it can be heard and felt its a emotion not a measurement thats why so many people love music,thats its job in our world,not to be speced and quoted to death.If you are into music for the scientific side of audio become a designer,but I find it hard for someone who doesent put the sound and emotional feelings first to be a good audio designer.Get a life man and grow up its nothing special what are doing,you are just tranfering numbers from paper to typing.Why are so proud you didnt do any of these measurements that you post evertime your on this forum. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1054 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah sure,at least I dont copy things out of a book word for word like its your own experiance.Get real why should I answer any of your spec questions anyone can quote out of a book word for word.Do you think world class writers copy other authors work?No they dont they come up with their own ideas and stories.So do you know what that makes you Bayless?A fraud,a copy cat,a follower,you better learn to march to your own beat and quit taking John Atkinson word on specs for sound because that certainly doesent tell how a speaker performs in real life sitiations.Quoting somelses words or numbers does not make you smart and knowlegable,hands on experiance is the key in audio,so get your own ideas about what real sound is,music cant be measured it can be heard and felt its a emotion not a measurement thats why so many people love music,thats its job in our world,not to be speced and quoted to death.If you are into music for the scientific side of audio become a designer,but I find it hard for someone who doesent put the sound and emotional feelings first to be a good audio designer.Get a life man and grow up its nothing special what are doing,you are just tranfering numbers from paper to typing.Why are so proud you didnt do any of these measurements that you post evertime your on this forum. |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 170 Registered: Apr-05 | SEE what I mean? |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 171 Registered: Apr-05 | NMyTree, I hear ya. Fair enough. Then I extend to you the same offer I did to Tawaun and Anonymous (as futile as THAT was) Prove me wrong. Time after time I post this same thing.....c'mon guys.......prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 172 Registered: Apr-05 | Tawaun, my turntable is worth more than your entire system. Ask your real hi end buds about the Micro-Seiki line. I have the one with two tone arms. |
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Anoynymous Unregistered guest | Good for ya' but.... who cares? LOL Come on "Brain-Less" give it up, no one cares about what you have to say anyway....Really. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1064 Registered: Jun-05 | But yet you are ranting around about some little known $2200 speaker yeah right you have that turntable.Bayless im gonna ask you again what kind of speaker do you own now and I'll tell you if they suck or not?I never proclaimed my turntable to be the pinnacle of all turntables,and you sure that isnt John Atkinsons turntable?And you have already been proved wrong knowone respects the spectators they respect the players.Whats your entire system I challenge you to a system shootout F1uck the specs put up or shut up oh yeah in person hands on hand you said you travel so bring it on!!! |
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Silver Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 174 Registered: Apr-05 | "And you have already been proved wrong" Really? Post a link to the thread please? |
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Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 25 Registered: Aug-04 | Just for the record. I'm fairly certain my Wharfedale Opus 2 speakers, are a First Order design. Does that mean I have the best speakers in theworld? One thing for sure, they're the best speakers for my ears. Although, there's other speakers I like...and own. But my Opus 2 are my babies! LOL! |
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