6.5 Componants JL MB Quart Or Infinity?????
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Blazer4by Unregistered guest | Lookin to get some decent 6.5 componants under $225 or so shipped, here is what I have found: JL Audio XR650-CSi Component MB QUART RCE 216 Infinity Kappa Perfect Price wise the Quarts are cheapest, then the Infinity and the JL the most, but I am open to any of them. Would it be a matter of the best match for my amp? It is a Zapco 360 50 watts x 4. I think the Infinity have the highest RMS rating. Oh, the other 2 channels on the amp are going for either some 6x9 or my dash 4x6 later so I am only going to use 50x2 with these speakers in the door. |
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Silver Member Username: JayjPost Number: 101 Registered: May-04 | Go with the infinity kappa perfects. |
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Blazer4by Unregistered guest | How come? best sound quality or best value for the money or some other reason? Not trying to be a smart a** but I have never owned JL audio and keep hearing that they are so great but in this situation the Ininity would be a better choice? Thanks |
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Silver Member Username: JayjPost Number: 104 Registered: May-04 | If you go with the infinitys you will get more then your moneys worth. They have VERY good sound pushed with that zapco they will sound better then the JLs. The MB Quarts I don't really know about. But I do know you would be very happy with the infintys |
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Blazer4by Unregistered guest | Jay I really appreciate your advice, I am just trying to get the best sounding deal for what I have. I know from reading here that the best stuff is not necesarily the most expensive but the best match. I was leaning towards the Kappas anyway, but really wanted to consider the JL because of the opinions here. Will still lean towards the Infinity from what you say. Thanks again for your input it is MUCH appreciated, I have a tough decision to make. Want to get it right the first time. |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 411 Registered: May-04 | JL is good, but more often than not, overpriced for what you get, they're not always so good that they always constitute the high price tag. Kappa Perfects are a very nice set of components. Great buy for the money, you won't be disappointed. |
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Silver Member Username: Sploosh56Post Number: 150 Registered: May-04 | Yea go with the Kappa Perfects. Awesome sounding speaker. |
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Bronze Member Username: JamtochristianPenn State , Pennsylvania USA of course! Post Number: 63 Registered: Mar-04 | I agree, I just ordered my first of two sets of Infinity Perfect 6.1's, and I can't wait for them. I asked so many times about these and I keep comparing and comparing, I think they're the best buy for the price range. |
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Blazer4by Unregistered guest | Thanks again all. I just ordered the Perfects on eBay and they shipped out today. $189 plus about 21 shipping and (hopefully) they are brand new not refurb in sealed box as advertised. I know this is not a lot of cash in the high end stereo game but still by far the most I have ever spent on speakers. I am confident though as I have heard so many good things about them. Thanks again for everyone's advice. |
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New member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 6 Registered: Jun-04 | Hate to be a downer, but those Perfects need 100w RMS to stay alive, and the distortion *will* kill them with only 50w. I bought a Kenwood 7201 amp off of Donald for just this purpose (Perfect 6.1). My recommendation would be to wait to install them until you have something suitable to drive 'em. -Matt |
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New member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 7 Registered: Jun-04 | If you can get 100x2 out of that amp, then you should be set. You'll just need another amp to drive whatever other speakers you get down the road. -Matt |
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Blazer4by Unregistered guest | Well, I guess I will have to see then. I can probably get a good price for the Zapco amp if I needed to get rid of it but for now I will just go with it and see what happens. Yeah I guess I did not notice that the Perfects recommend 100 watts RMS and the Zapco I have is only 50. I don't think I can bridge it in stereo mode but will have to check the manual on that one. Thanks again all... |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 476 Registered: May-04 | Yeah, but that Zapco will do a lot better than most (if not all) 50x4 amps. The dynamics of the amp will run them well, I think. They have the best damping in the industry, also the best slew rate and signal to noise, so don't sell it before you try it. Many amps sound underpowering because they have poor damping and slew rate, which drastically affects the dynamics of an amplifier. If you bridge it you will get 4x the power of a 4 ohm load. |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 477 Registered: May-04 | Oh, they are also underrated. |
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Blazer4by Unregistered guest | Hey thanks Jonathan, I will find out soon as I get the Perfects on Monday and will most likely have this installed by the end of next week. I don't know about bridging it I looked at the manual and it looks like there is no way to bridge in stereo mode, only mono for sub or subs. Will just have to wait and see. I was looking at a 4 channel JBL and Hifonics that are both 100 watts rms x4, but am kind of curious about the Zapco because I have heard so many good things about them. |
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Blazer4by Unregistered guest | Hey just a follow up, I looked at the amp itself and it looks like there are settings so I could just go with a left front and right rear then bridge both of them (even though it would be just the front speakers) and that way I think the thing will give me 170 watts RMS. That oughta be enough b*lls to make the Perfects sound good. Let me know if I am wrong, don't want to blow the amp or anything but don't see why this should not work. |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 493 Registered: May-04 | That's too much for the Perfects. Try the 50 watts x4, that amp should handle it well. |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 21 Registered: Jun-04 | Jonathan - the Perfects are 100W RMS. Blazer - how'd we go from 50x4 to 170x2? -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 497 Registered: May-04 | He's talking about bridged. Read my post above, the Perfects don't necessarily "need" 100RMS, also that Zapco amp is spectacular, like I said above damping factor and slew rate are big roles in a good amplifier, not just raw power. |
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Bronze Member Username: TafkamDayton, Oh Post Number: 55 Registered: Apr-04 | Hey guys, sorry I changed my user name again but it is Blazer4by under my registered name. Anyway, I am looking at the specs on this amp again it is a Zapco AG-360 and here is what is says....."50 watts X 4 @ 4 ohms, 90 watts X2 @ 2 ohms, Bridged Mono 110 watts X2 @ 8 ohms, 170 watts X2 @ 4 ohms". So what I was thinking was if I took the left channel from the front and then hooked up the right channel as rear with the perfects, then bridged both it would give me 170 X 2 RMS, sorry I am bad both at math and I am tired, let me know if I am wrong, but then again I am taking the thing to Circuit City as they are installing the Perfects, so I will double check with them as far as the amp goes. BUT please let me know I don't think CC knows a whole lot about Zapco...... |
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Bronze Member Username: TafkamDayton, Oh Post Number: 56 Registered: Apr-04 | Oh, by the way Jonathan hate to make you type so much but what is a "slew rate" and "damping"? From what you tell me I now have a really good amp, feel embarrased to ask you to tell me why? |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 23 Registered: Jun-04 | Jonathan -- The Perfects are 100W RMS and 400W Peak. 50W RMS would be very underpowered. tafkam -- Slew Rate is how fast the amplifier can switch from negative to positive current (measured in Volts per nanosecond). Realistically, anything over 4.6 V/is is going to be inperceptible (for 4-ohms at 100W). Most decent amplifiers have ratings in the 10 to 20 range. Damping is the measure of resistance of the amplifier itself. In most cases, it is acoustically insignificant, and is evident in the power range offered by the amplifier. Unless you are doing crossovers and bridges *after* the amp, it really doesn't matter. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: TafkamDayton, Oh Post Number: 58 Registered: Apr-04 | Thanks Matt. Just FYI and I don't know if this makes a difference for me as I have to at least try the Zapco with the Perfects, this is all I have right now. On my Zapco it lists the slew rate as > 23 V/uS and the damping factor as > 160 @ 4 ohms. |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 25 Registered: Jun-04 | Yeah, modern equipment is unlikely to have performance issues related to these values, and the Zapco highlights how silly some people can stress them... 23 is so far beyond audible, it's not even funny. As for the damping... the value "160 @ 4 ohms" means there's 0.025 ohms output impedance on the amplifier. In order to be perceptible, again you'd need to be more around .1 ohms (a damping factor of 40), which very little (if any) equipment produced today actually has. -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 500 Registered: May-04 | As far as damping, you also have to take account for the impedance of the woofer terminals, wires running to them, etc. in addition to the amp, so the higher the better. Yes, there is a point where it isn't noticeable, but it's nice to know. What I'm saying is he already has the amp, why not at least try it out? The speakers don't necessarily need 100W RMS, although if he didn't have an amp to start with I'd recommend that, but 50W WON'T kill them as long as you're not a total idiot with it. Amp's don't distort (not to point of failure, anyway) until they clip, as long as he's not sending clipped power to them it's perfectly ok. It really depends on how hard he wants to push it. If he wouldn't listen to it any louder than that 50W can put out, it's pointless for him to sell a good amp to squeeze a little more power out of the system. Also, it's already a great amp, and really it'll put out more power than most comparable 50x4 amps out there, and the power is cleaner, it's more comparable to a 75x4 lower end amp. |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 26 Registered: Jun-04 | I agree that the THD and frequency response on that unit are better than average, but (thusfar) we've been purely talking about power -- sufficient power for the drivers and the effects of underpowering good equipment. My intent was to point out that slew rate and damping, while attributes of good equipment, have little effect on this particular problem. Even if he had an amp with a 40V/nanosec slew and 200+ damping at 50W, it's still woefully under the expected current for these drivers. Regardless of the "acoustic polish" involved, he needs 100W RMS to drive the speakers -- period. The more important questions are: 1. Will he notice when he's getting a clipped signal? 2. How long will those tweeters survive a clipped signal? 3. How long will the crossover survive a clipped signal? Personally, I judge most audio equipment by the frequency response, THD, and power. Pretty much everything else is academic and would require an exceptionally well-trained ear to notice the difference. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: TafkamDayton, Oh Post Number: 60 Registered: Apr-04 | Thanks once again for the input Matt and J, I am going to get this hooked up hopefully by the end of the week. I will just see how it sounds and go from there. If for some reason it does not seem like a good combo I think I can sell the Zapco and get a lower end 100X4 amp and come out even, thinking I can get about 200 for the Zapco and then turn around and get something in the 175 plus 25 shipping range, I was looking at a Hifonics Nemisis and JBL model that were 100X4 RMS. Eventually want to add a second pair of full range speakers so this is why I am looking at 4 channel amps. It would be an easy matter for me to swap these out in the future if necessary. ALso, the Zapco I got on eBay so I at least want to make sure it works properly before I put it up for sale. Thanks again for your advice, I am learning more about this stuff more every day and every little bit of info helps. |
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Silver Member Username: Its_bacon12Post Number: 696 Registered: Dec-03 | you should definately be fine with that Zapco amp - i'll be it puts out closer to 70w rms x4 at 4 ohms and you dont have to use a perfect power matchup to get great sound - but if you were, i would reccomend a JBL P180.2 it puts out 90w x2 @ 4 ohm and 180w x2 @ 2 ohm so you could wire the left speakers (front and back) and right speakers (f+b) paralell on the two channels and get 90 watts rms going to each comp set btw, that JBL amp is about $125-$140 "...he needs 100W RMS to drive the speakers -- period. .." are you that damn stubborn? you dont NEED the rated power for those speakers!! i saw Jonathan's been trying to drive it into your skull but it hasnt worked....... like many subwoofer manufacturer's say, power ratings are only thermal - not mechanical i mean what amp do you know puts out 100w rms and 400w peak EXACTLY for those speakers? thats what i thought...and tafkam - please listen to me and Jon - you DONT NEED 100w rms for those speakers, they will sound nearly just as loud with 70-90 watts double the power only adds +3 dB, so think about that... 50 watts to 100 watts RMS only adds +3 dB overall, not a very significant difference at all unless you're involved in competition, wich you're not |
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Silver Member Username: Its_bacon12Post Number: 697 Registered: Dec-03 | btw that JBL amp is also underrated, puts out probably in excess of 100w rms at 4 ohms |
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Anonymous | Hey is audiobahn good |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 28 Registered: Jun-04 | "power ratings are only thermal" -- that's just a bunch of crap. So you think if you had a fan on a driver you could power it with 10W? That's just dumb. I am all too aware of how ratings work. Do you even know what RMS stands for? I'm guessing no. Do you know what happens to a speaker's coil when you send a clipped (DC) signal? Again, I'm guessing no. its_bacon... your "advice" can be summarized to "just throw whatever amp you have handy onto whatever speakers you buy, and don't worry about ratings; they're all thermal". That's pure poopie. At least Jonathan understands (and speaks) to the technical aspects of the problem without saying "it's all nonsense, I know better". Sheesh. -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: Its_bacon12Post Number: 700 Registered: Dec-03 | i know what RMS stand for and i know what happens when clipping occurs and what causes it.. underpowering DOES NOT mean clipping hell if it did, every time you turned your volume down it would clip...your feedin these guys bullsh*t "So you think if you had a fan on a driver you could power it with 10W? That's just dumb. " no im not saying that lol im saying you dont NEED the full power on a speaker to reach its limits before distortion/over excursion occurs - great example, but not sure if it's appropriate to this thread brahmas - can HANDLE 1600w rms and 4800w peak in certain boxes, most boxes, you can reach the driver's mechanical limits with ONLY 600 watts RMS thats what...less than 1/2 the rated power for it if you set your gains properly on that Zapco amp you can get great sound out of it WITHOUT clipping the amp "its_bacon... your "advice" can be summarized to "just throw whatever amp you have handy onto whatever speakers you buy, and don't worry about ratings; they're all thermal". That's pure poopie. " i am not saying that im simply saying you dont need to have perfectly matched amp and speakers to get awesome results - and expecially when dealing with zapco and those infinity kappa perfects, matched up they wont deliver less than awesome results, even if theyre not perfectly matched - output to power handling before tryin to crap on me, read what i say and dont assume stuff |
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Bronze Member Username: TafkamDayton, Oh Post Number: 61 Registered: Apr-04 | Thanks for your input too Bacon, and I apologize if I am sounding like I am swaying back and forth here, but then again this is why the forum exists, or at least one of the the main reasons it exists; so I can get some help from others that are more experienced than I am. Bottom line is this: I have the Zapco AG360, a 4 channel amp. I am going to hook it up to Infinity Kappy Perfects, 2 channels only, no bridging or anything like that, as I want to reserve the other two channels for a future install of some 6x9's. So, I can go with the Zapco for now or sell it and have enough to cover either of two other amps I am looking at: a JBL GTO75.4 or a Hifonics Nemesis NX880, both of which are around 100X4 at 4 ohms. The JBL is slightly cheaper. And you are right, I am not into competition, nor do I care what my setup looks like, as a matter of fact I will do my best to hide it so I really don't care about either brand names or pretty lights. I just want to make the best decision for sound quality. The only reason I am teater tottering around right now is that I really don't want to even install the Zapco if it will not do the job or I have to worry about replacing it, the thing is in great shape and I don't need to scratch it accidently just "experimenting". I am leaning towards the Hifonics because I just hooked up a Brutus 1500 to power my sub and I am really impressed with it. To have a matching brand amp for the other speakers makes sense to me, but of course is not a requirement. I understand I am comparing a very high end amp with a couple of "average" amps. However, given my situation can you guys give me an answer as to what you would do if in my situation? The thing that makes this so difficult is the fact that I can go either way without spending any money, and I tend to side with Matt on one point, if the speakers say 100 RMS then I should go with 100 RMS if I can. Again, don't take me wrong Bacon and Jon, but I want to pose the question to you this way, what amp would you go with if you were me? Specs aside, that is really all I need to know. And I am sorry if I started any kind of war between you experts, I am just a humble drunk with too much free time on his hands and a fast internet connection, a combo which is deadly when combined with an eBay addition. (heh heh just kidding, well sort of)....take it easy guys and THANKS once again to ALL of you!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: TafkamDayton, Oh Post Number: 62 Registered: Apr-04 | OH man, Bacon I just re-read your post and did not think of that. The Zapco is two ohm stable and I forgot that being componants we are talking about two seperate speakers per side. So, if I hook up just the front speakers on the Zapco, I could wire them in parallel and have a two ohm load on the amp (front only) which would give me 90 watts RMS, and still leave the entire rear channel of the amp for 50x2 RMS in case I wanted to add some 6x9 three ways later? Cr*p please tell me if I am correct and it so then this whole thing is moot, my Kappas will be getting almost the rated RMS and I will still have my other two channels clear for later. |
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Silver Member Username: Its_bacon12Hfl, Ny Usa Post Number: 701 Registered: Dec-03 | mmm i think u misread - kappa perfect components are setup as a 4 ohm comp set - the reason is because when two speakers generate the same frequency off the same channel, the impedance is halved.. since you're using a crossover with the tweeter and woofer - they will never hit the same frequency ranges so you get an overall impedance of 4 ohms per comp set what i was saying though was if you had a 2 channel amp instead of a 4 channel amp and you wanted to run 4 speakers, then you could go with 2 speakers/comp sets per channel and get a full 90 watts RMS to every speaker hope this clarifies a little bit |
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Bronze Member Username: TafkamDayton, Oh Post Number: 63 Registered: Apr-04 | Ahhh I see now. This is harder than 9th grade math sometimes! I flunked that by the way as well as my senior year in college, luckily it did not pertain to my major and I was allowed to write a term paper instead. OK well then it is settled, I am going to get the darn Hifonics Nemisis since it matches my other sub amp and then I know I will be putting the right RMS thru the Infinity. I know I jumped the gun buying the Zapco anyway, was just going for the name but if it is really not the amp that is best for me, which I see now that it is not, really, then I know what to do. Hey Bacon I don't know how old you are but if you are ever in the situation to write a term paper, do it on amps, hell I would read it and give you an A+++++ Thanks again Tafkam |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 505 Registered: May-04 | One thing, 6x9's aren't good for sound quality, ESPECIALLY 3 ways. I know you mentioned that is a future upgrade possibility, 3 ways have too much treble and midrange, and this will pull the soundstage to the rear, and with equal power (100x4), you'll fade them out and never use them to their potential. Go with either midbasses or no rear speakers. I'm saying this for you now because if you decide to ditch the rear speakers(I would), you can save money and get a two channel that puts out 100W RMSx2, and sound better with just 2(sounding just as good is the worst case scenario, I'll put it that way). But IF you plan to add rear speakers in the future, both the Hifonics and JBL amps are good. You'll save money and be just as happy to ditch the rear speakers and save money by buying a 2 channel instead of a 4. |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 506 Registered: May-04 | By the way, what kind of budget do you have for an amp, since you asked what we'd get if we were in your shoes? I don't agree with a set "needing" full thermal power for best performance, experience will tell you that as many bottom out at full power anyway (not saying yours will), also Kappa Perfects are LOUD, and if you push either a good 50x4 like that Zapco (really closer to 70-80x4) or 100x4, there isn't a lot of difference, 3db at best, and both are capable of making you deaf at full output, so I would choose sound quality, which the Zapco would offer more of. Of course, it always depends on the installation and your listening taste of how much power you want, which is why I recommend at least trying the amp first, but that's up to you. I mean, if you have a 100W RMS amp and only use it to 1/4-1/2 of it's potential clean power, that 50W will do just as good, just like Bacon said, if smaller amps made speakers clip and distort, then they'd clip every time the volume was down. I like Zapco because of internal component quality, also they use bipolar transistors (the newer ones, anyway) instead of the typical MOSFET that everyone proudly displays on their casings, their S/N ratio is the best in the industry, also low THD (can be a misleading spec, but they are dead on with it), etc. If you still can return that amp and desire more power, and it's new, look at the Zapco Reference 350.2, dead on to specs of the Perfects if that comforts you more, and an awesome amp to have. |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 29 Registered: Jun-04 | Oh, no, et tu Jonathan? "if smaller amps made speakers clip and distort, then they'd clip every time the volume was down" Clipping occurs when the AMP is forced to run at its peak output; Turning the volume down decreases the signal, which would make clipping impossible. If tafkam runs those Perfects at 50W for more than a few seconds, he has a 99% chance of blowing them. "a good 50x4 like that Zapco (really closer to 70-80x4)" Okay, so now we're just totally making up load figures? I'd be happy to put a meter on that amp and prove that that's BS. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 30 Registered: Jun-04 | Hey tafkam, I'll sell you an amp that's rated 100x2 (but really closer to 250x4) for just $350 shipped. HaHaHaHa |
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Silver Member Username: Its_bacon12Hfl, Ny Usa Post Number: 703 Registered: Dec-03 | "If tafkam runs those Perfects at 50W for more than a few seconds, he has a 99% chance of blowing them. " why are you so damn stubborn on saying that? you want to know what? i have a set of the infinity kappa 6.5" coaxals with a JBL p80.2 running a set of them and they get damn loud and you know what? ive had this setup for nearly a year and THEY HAVENT BLOWN!!! god matt underpowered amp doesnt mean clipping for christ sake i'm only feeding them 40-50w rms and they can handle 75 w rms and 225w peak you know what tho? NO CLIPPING!! god im getting sick of you saying the damn thing over and over and over....while its not true and i quote the great GlassWolf... "clipping is caused by several things. overdriving the input stage of the amp by having the gains turned too high, or having too high of a line voltage for the inputs, or by a lack of current from the car's charging system. clipping is when the amplifier's voltage rails sag for whatever reason, and the amplifeir is unable to produce a sinewae signal to the speakers. what happens is the peak and trough of the sinewave gets "clipped" off, producing a square wave instead. electrically, a square wave translates to DC voltage, which causes the speaker voice coils to become a heating element, which in turn tends to melt the coils, cause distortion, and freeze up the cone. In short, destroying your speakers. " |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 32 Registered: Jun-04 | "i'm only feeding them 40-50w rms and they can handle 75 w rms and 225w peak you know what tho? NO CLIPPING!!" A clipped signal is not created at the driver, it's created at the AMP, when it's running at-or-near peak. Those Kappas double their impedance at 1.3KHz (and again at 20KHz) running in excess of 8 ohms -- which that amp can't possibly drive at 50W. Feel free to hook up a scope to your set, run a full-gain 1.3KHz sine wave into the amp, and see what happens to the Kappas at the other end. You'll hear the crystal-clear square wave for about 3 seconds, then mud. -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 511 Registered: May-04 | What I was saying is that you are trying to say low power causes clipping and distortion, when really it's when you try to push the amp PAST it's capable maximum output. If it's true on 50W, same story with the 100W about the Kappa Perfects doubling impedance to 8 ohms at 1.3k and 20k, it won't put 100W at that 8 ohm load, so I guess according to your theory they'll blow within seconds since they're not getting full power. No sh*t the amp causes the clipping, Bacon said that above. His post stated clipping is when the VOLTAGE RAILS SAG, he said nothing about the driver. An amp clips when it tries to push PAST peak due to signal demands, along with other factors, not when it's at max s/n. So if that 50W RMS amp isn't pushed past peak, which won't happen if he listens to an amp like NORMAL PEOPLE WOULD, not trying to blow his eardrums out, then it WON'T hurt the speakers. How stupid can you get? Anyone that's currently running their speakers at half RMS can prove you that. How do people get speakers and run them off a head unit w/o killing them instantly with clipping as you claim? I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that do that w/o problems. You're trying to hard to redeem yourself after a stupid statement, get off the rag before you try to confuse anymore people. All this is coming from a guy running Kappa Perfects off a KENWOOD amp, crap amps, obviously you can't figure out your sh*t about amplifier design buying one of those pieces of crap. Some of the worst amps out there. |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 33 Registered: Jun-04 | Your argument, which bacon seconded and you later reiterated, was that turning the volume down on a matched system was equivalent to powering a 100W RMS speaker with a 50W (max) amplifier, which it absolutely isn't. Gain on the line is proportional to the output voltage until you hit max and mins. As you and I agreed far earlier in this thread, before bacon came around: if he did not push the amp to max he would be fine. But bacon continues to argue that it's virtually impossible to blow a speaker through underpowering, which is ludicrous... there are countless articles citing exactly that as a common cause of blown drivers. And nowhere did I ever state that I had a high-end, r00l-you-all system myself. But, I do have an EE degree and am quite versed in the magic of powered amplifiers. I let your BS about slew rate and damping go for a bit before you made it the end-all-be-all of amplifier design. Find me any amp above $100 that doesn't have either of those at double the nominal values. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 34 Registered: Jun-04 | I thought I'd add that, having now checked, here's how the two amps stack up (by spec): Kenwood KAC-7251 (150Wx2@4ohm) Power supply: MOSFET THD: 0.08% S:N: 100 dB RCA Sensitivity: 200mV-5V Max draw: 43A Zapco 360.4 (50Wx4@4ohm) Power supply: MOSFET THD: 0.046% S:N: >95 dB RCA Sensitivity: 250mV-5V Max draw: 45A Not all that distinctive, IMHO. -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 515 Registered: May-04 | I never said damping and slew rate was the end all be all, but it does REFLECT the quality of the amp more than power. I'm not necessarily saying it's the thing to look at, but it's kind of like S/N, a high signal to noise will reflect that the amp's components have little chance of affecting the output signal's quality. You said in an earlier post that you judge an amp by freq. response, THD and Power. You'll get ripped off going by those specs as they're the most lied about. They A-weight those figures, some ridiculously, to look pretty to people that don't get the whole picture. I mean, who give's a rat's a$$ if an amp can go all the way to 30k? You won't hear it, a person with absolutely no hearing damage hears from 20-20,000 hz. I can understand an amp going lower so you can feel subsonic freqs, but an amp that goes to 30k is ridiculous. Focus on the important range and you'll be better off. That's why I brought up damping and slew rate, not because of the effects damping and slew rate have so much on the speakers, but more along the lines of that it proves the quality of the amp. Even if they are overachieving, every detail contributes to the big picture of how all the amp's components come together, and that difference is what separates the good brands from crap. Power is the most lied about spec there is, some rate at 12.5V, some at 14.4, some just straight out lie and post a 2000W amp with a 15-20 amp fuse. As far as your above comparison, those specs can lie. What you list definately doesn't prove the SQ of an amp, doesn't reflect material quality, either. You'd have to look at internals for a decent comparison, and how they are lain out. Heat sinks and the cooling efficiency of the design also matters, something Kenwood isn't praised about. The transistor QUALITY matters a LOT since it's the heart of an amp, tolerances of components also matter a lot, assume the Kenwood's tolerances are above 5%, Zapco's are typically 1% or lower, the Zapco will be much better and last longer. Also, the distortion isn't a huge issue since you definately won't notice a difference of a few tenths of a percent, especially in a car. The biggest thing that affects the quality of the amp is the power supply, no specs that manufacturers give are going to prove an amp's quality, you've got to crack it yourself and have a look. That Zapco will last years upon years longer than a Kenwood. Also, about the power, since that amp can draw a max. 45 amps, that means at a 14.4V load, with a 50% efficiency (being conservative) the amp will be capable of putting out a total output power of 324 watts, divide that by 4 for each channel and it's 81 watts per channel. |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 516 Registered: May-04 | "Hate to be a downer, but those Perfects need 100w RMS to stay alive, and the distortion *will* kill them with only 50w." That's your direct quote. We said that because you make it out to be that underpowering will destroy a speaker when it's simply not true. http://www.crutchfield.com/S-M20W1scq0NU/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=10&g=76400&I =108perf61&o=p&a=0&cc=01&avf=N&search= Look at the power range. They don't post it for no reason. I think Infinity knows a bit more about the Perfects than you do. "Your argument, which bacon seconded and you later reiterated, was that turning the volume down on a matched system was equivalent to powering a 100W RMS speaker with a 50W (max) amplifier, which it absolutely isn't." It's 50 RMS, not max. Like I showed you above, it's capable of putting 81 into each channel. We never said that it was equivalent to that, you need to quit twisting our words around to your liking. Quit assuming what we mean and use direct quotes if anything. You keep posting "basically, what you said is this" when we really said something totally different, you're just trying to make yourself look smarter. We said that IF underpowering speakers killed them(like you said above) then the speakers would die when the volume was down. Volume is a potentiometer, cutting voltage, also cutting signal output, yes the gain is matched (or should be), but when volume is turned down, the amp's power output also decreases because the signal that is to be amplified is cut. The transistors can only amplify what comes to them, if the volume is turned down (aka voltage is cut), their power output WILL decrease. I'm through arguing with you over this stupid sh*t. If you want to be that stubborn, be that stubborn, I'll take a quality amp with less power than a Kenwood that with a little more anyday. But since your Kenwood is 150x2, that Zapco can be bridged for 170x2 and get more power with better sound quality, so really he has an edge already. I just wouldn't drive Kappa Perfects with that much power. |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 35 Registered: Jun-04 | I'm done arguing as well, obviously you guys have your mind made up. And that amp can only be bridged to mono x 2 with a .8 THD. -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: Its_bacon12Hfl, Ny Usa Post Number: 720 Registered: Dec-03 | i have a few things to conclude this thread with first off....matt, you got served  secondly, tafkam ur best off keeping that zapco amp than moving to hifonics or anything else third, thank you jon for helpin me out here.. fourth, what the hell is that sposed to mean? "And that amp can only be bridged to mono x 2 with a .8 THD. " ofcourse 4 channel as can only ridge to 2 channels... |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 36 Registered: Jun-04 | I hardly believe I "got served". You kids with your "the specs are mostly lies anyway" can go on believing whatever you choose. That Zapco only does mono x 2, not stereo. IOW, good for two subs but not for rear fill. And the direct quotes for Jonathan: Jonathan: "How do people get speakers and run them off a head unit w/o killing them instantly with clipping as you claim?" its_bacon: "i'm only feeding them 40-50w rms and they can handle 75 w rms and 225w peak you know what tho? NO CLIPPING!!" Jonathan: "if smaller amps made speakers clip and distort, then they'd clip every time the volume was down." its_bacon: "underpowering DOES NOT mean clipping hell if it did, every time you turned your volume down it would clip" Jonathan: "damping factor and slew rate are big roles in a good amplifier" Then later: "I never said damping and slew rate was the end all be all, but it does REFLECT the quality of the amp more than power. I'm not necessarily saying it's the thing to look at" -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 523 Registered: May-04 | You actually think you'll notice that .8% distortion? Please. You'll notice a quality signal much quicker, aka Zapco vs. Kenwood. Just like tube amplifiers are "warm" sounding because of even ordered harmonics, the distortion is pleasing to the ear. Same with a QUALITY amp. A stereo 2 channel amp is MONOx2 you f*ckin idiot. Each channel is MONO, two channels works together, each individual being mono, is what creates STEREO. The amp will only produce the signal that comes to it, it doesn't know the difference between mono and stereo. You're the idiot who thinks every company is honest with specs. They feed that bullsh*t and A-weight all their specs so people like you who think they know it all will come along and think it's a great amp. Who gives a sh*t what the freq response is as long as it covers 20-20,000? Who really cares about a tenth of a percent of distortion in a car, you'll notice transistor quality more quickly, and LINEARITY long before distortion. Power, like I said above, is the most lied about spec there is. You can choose off those specs if you want. You'll never know quality until you crack into the power supply. |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 37 Registered: Jun-04 | The bridging mode on that amp is L+R sum mono (i.e., one signal to both channels) explicitly for sub use. Read your specs before going off. My selection based on frequency response referred to the curve, not the range. Many speakers have 10%-20% dips at points in the range (whereas the Kappa Perfects have a <2% deviation along the curve). It's a significant difference if you're listening for quality and not boom. If every company lies about specs, then what makes Zapco so different? Because they say they don't? -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 524 Registered: May-04 | Because I've seen Zapco amps used and have cracked a few of their amps. They're solidly built, well engineered, have the best tolerances (1% or less) on resistors, caps, and other components, AND I've hooked them up to an Oscilloscope. They also make all of their components instead of buying them. They're about as linear as it gets, especially the units with Bipolar transistors instead of the overrated MOSFET. Name a lot of companies that list a frequency curve, especially lower end. You'd have to own the amp to test it, you won't find many places with reviews and tests that list the curve, at least not for every amp, including Kenwoods. Zapco doesn't A-weight their specs like most companies do, they give precise numbers. Mostly I'm referring to lower end brands like Legacy, Boss, Sony, etc. that list tons of power, such as 2000W with 10 and 20 amp fuses. |
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Bronze Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 40 Registered: Jun-04 | I wouldn't even discuss Legacy, Boss, Sony, Pyramid, or any of the other countless names that get by on power and not quality. Kenwood, like Phoenix Gold, has come a long way to producing quality equipment; I suggest you listen to some before judging on (deep past) experience. Even Infinity -- who has very good equipment in those Perfects -- produces crap amps with 1% THD and S:N in the 80% range. Most of the review magazines post/publish the result curves when demo'ing amps. While you may say they're in bed with 'em, at least purports to be objective. -matt |
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Bronze Member Username: TafkamDayton, Oh Post Number: 65 Registered: Apr-04 | OK guys, sorry if I started WW3 with all of this but again I really like all of the advice, even if most of the last posts are over my head. Here is what I did and please don't flame me but I took the best advice I could find on here, from this thread and others and have done this. I sold the Zapco, and I am getting a Hifonics Nemesis NX 880, which is rated at 100 watts x 4. I have a Hifonics Brutus 1500 which I installed about a week ago to push my Kove Armageddon 15 inch sub, and am really impressed with the results, and have read on here that the Hifonics amps are pretty decent, so that is why I decided to go with that one. May as well have a matching pair too. When I got that Zapco I did not know quite yet what 6.5 componants I was going to get. Now that I got the Infinity Kappy Perfects (which arrived yesterday) I did know realize that their RMS was 100. At any rate what is done is done, and I hope I made a good decision, I really think I did. I am going to get some 6x9 also, and I know you guys say this is not necessary but in my Blazer the 6x9 are right behind the driver seat, and as a person that grew up on 6x9 speakers being the king of the hill I really like them, I like the sub but for the 80's metal I listen to for the most part, I want a sub that just kind of gives a nice tight kick for the bass, not blowing out the rest of the highs or reverbing or anything like that, and this combo with the Armageddon and the Hifonics really sounds good to me. I will let you all know how this all works out and sounds, but for now the deal is done. Again I am sorry if I caused the experts here to get into arguements on my behalf, I never intended to do that, but again I really appreciate the good advice and believe me I have taken note of your comments for future use. Now, I am going to relax and have a beer!!! Matt, Bacon, and Jonathan please do the same, if I could get you guys one with Paypal and have it delivered right now I would!!!!! Take care, Mike (aka tafkam) |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 535 Registered: May-04 | Yes, those amps will be very good. You didn't cause problems. Subs are nice, too. Kove Audio is extremely good equipment. |
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