Car dieing question's
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New member Username: MightytibianPost Number: 10 Registered: Dec-05 | Ever since I had my underbody neon lights installed a long time ago by car toys who wired them wrong my car will die if u leave it running without actually driving. I knew it was wired wrong because the Lexus dealership rewired it and after the Lexus dealership was done the lights didnt turn on if the car was off so the battery wasnt draining even when the car was off. The neon light are no longer installed but recently I got a sub and amp installed at Tweeter and everything is installed right. My question is what needs to be done to stop the car from dieing? It will die like this. Say I sit talking to a friend with the car running for 5 minutes without moving then turn off the car it will not restart unless I jump the battery. I have an Optima battery but since its been drained so many times im guessing it will never hold a full charge again. I have a battery charger I have used when it dies and it will be fine unless im stupid and leave it running again. I have been told different things. Some say I need to either get my alternator rewired to put out more power or to buy a more powerfull one. Some say a new yellow top Optima battery. Some say both new more powerful alternator and new battery. What do you guys sugest? Also how would I know what Alternater I should get and what power? Thanks for any help. |
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Silver Member Username: Livin_loudNy Post Number: 256 Registered: Jan-06 | I would say an alternator problem as well, but I'm definitly no expert on this. The alternater size you should get depends on how much power you plan on drawing from it. Best bet is to go to excessiveamperage.com, ask for Nate and tell him your situation. |
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Silver Member Username: Timothy_314Post Number: 199 Registered: May-06 | car toys where? what town state? |
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Bronze Member Username: MightytibianPost Number: 11 Registered: Dec-05 | Thanks for the help so far. It was Houston, Texas car toys and when it was done u could turn the neon lights on even when the key was out of the car and the car was off which meant it was still drawing power. So by the next day the battery died. I took it to the Lexus dealership they said they had wired it wrong they rewired it and when they were done when the car was off you could not turn the lights on and the car stopped dieing unless I left it sitting on. Went back to Car Toys they said the dealer ship didnt change any wiring at all. :/ If I remember correctly also my car has a stock 80 amp alternator. |
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Bronze Member Username: MightytibianPost Number: 12 Registered: Dec-05 | So far my best option looks like getting my alternator re something I dont know exactly what it is called up to more power. |
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Bronze Member Username: Super_marioPost Number: 78 Registered: Mar-06 | re-wound is that it? |
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Bronze Member Username: PittleaguePost Number: 23 Registered: May-06 | i recently had the same problem with my 96 blazer all i did was buy a new battery. Or check the water in ur old one and if it is low fill it and charge the Batt. for a long time maybe half a day or longer |
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Silver Member Username: DkchillinVermont Post Number: 141 Registered: Mar-05 | The underglow issue is strange since it sounds like they were direct wired to the battery the first time (which is the best way to do it) and then the dealership probably just added a relay, but niether way should have drained the battery unless you actually left the lights on with the car off, which you would be able to do with the direct wire setup. I have mine direct wired and as long as I make sure to turn them off at the switch, they don't draw any power. But anyway, that's not your issue now so it doesn't matter, sorry. It definately sounds like your battery is shot, you're probably going to need a new one regardless of what else you do. Before you do anything else you should just have your alt checked to see if it's charging your system properly. You don't want to spend all the money on a HO alt, just to find out you're having some other issue. What amp and sub are you running now? Nate at excessiveamperage.com is very helpful if you need a HO alt, but if you can get away with an OEM alt you'll save yourself a lot of money. If you do end up going the stock alt route and just need a new one, definately call around to junk yards to see if they have one for your car and put it in yourself if you're up to it, it's not complicated. |
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Bronze Member Username: MightytibianPost Number: 13 Registered: Dec-05 | I am using a Alpine Type Series R 1242D Sub and some California Profile Amp |
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Gold Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 1219 Registered: Jun-05 | I'm guessing battery, too, not alternator, because the way you describe it, once the cars on, it'll be ok, until you turn it back off.. This leads me to believe that your alternator is producing enough power to keep the car running, but when you turn it off, the battery isnt holding it's charge. What type of Optima are you using? You must remember - Red Top optima's are NOT deep cycle batteries, and they are not meant to be discharged more than any other normal battery. So if you ran your LED's or played music without the car on, you probably did irrepairable damage, in a short amount of time. D |
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Gold Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 1220 Registered: Jun-05 | Oh, btw.. With an 80 amp alternator, you really dont have much extra power even at max output on your alternator.. Should definitely consider upgrading your alternator and Big 3.  |
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Bronze Member Username: MightytibianPost Number: 14 Registered: Dec-05 | Ya it is an red top optima heh. Guess I should have read into it before buying that one :/. Well I think im gonna have to get a new battery the yellow top Optima. Probably last question, say I do get a new alternator if the stock one is 80 amp and the car is stock except for a 1000 watt sub and 1000 watt amp. What amp alt. do you think I would need? Or how would I be able to find out? Also how can I find out if a certain alt. fits in my car? |
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Gold Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 1221 Registered: Jun-05 | A 140-160 amp alternator would be more than enough for a 1000 watt RMS amplifier.. But it's not that much more for a 200 amp alternator in most cars. How you figure it out, is you take the amount of wattage the amplifier produces at 14.4 volts (assuming this is the operating voltage of your alternator), and divide it by 14.4. Watts / Volts = Amps. (Amps x Volts = Wattage you can produce). Also, remember your amp (if it's a class D) is probably only 70% - 80% efficient. So figure 1000 watts is only 80% of the amount of power it's pulling. The other 20% is turning into heat. This is only for like blasting test tones though.. Most music is extremely variable and dosnt use up near the amplifiers max draw.. In all reality, you could probably pull it off with a 120 amp alternator and be in pretty good shape - especially considering you're considering getting a deep cycle battery, which wont be damaged by a voltage drop now and then in case you do do go over the available supply. |
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Gold Member Username: Dustin3Tigard, Or U.S. Post Number: 1808 Registered: Oct-05 | in some cars it differs also. I have seen 1200 watt + systems runnin of a stock 80 amp alt. What i would do (if you infact wanted to save some money) would be to get the new yellow top, install it and see if ur car keeps dyin. If its is (which it shouldnt) then u should consider gettin a new alt. Even though ur alt may be fine. like derek said, you really dont want to go on spendin money that you dont need to spend. i would get a new batt, hook it up and see if the problem persists. |
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Gold Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 1225 Registered: Jun-05 | I would highly advise not taking Bassman3's advice. Your car might still start, and seem ok, at first.. Optima's tend to keep a 12v charge until they're almost discharged.. So what is going to happen, if you listen to your music a lot.. Is it'll seem fantastic at first, then all the sudden, you're going to be noticing major voltage dips, and that your optima isnt even at 12v with your alternator going full blast (batteries will regulate voltage if they're low). Soon, it's going to get really low, and when the heavy bass notes start hitting, your system will begin to shut off, as it reaches it's lowest operating voltage (most of the time it's listed at about 11 volts, but more realistic is turning off at 10.5ish volts for most electronics). Meanwhile, your alternator is being worked beyond belief, and killing itself, rather quickly, I might add. Oh, and dont think that since the battery is deep cycle, that it can handle that kind of major abuse for too long. They do have a limited number of cycles (discharges) based on how low you actually discharge it. Think about it like this. Your new optima yellow top is like a 100,000 gallon tank. Your amplifier turned on with the volume up, is like a hole that's draining 500 gallons a second. Your alternator is pouring back into your tank at 300 gallons a second. As you can see - in the example above you're still losing 200 gallons a second. (All being relative, just a simple example.) No matter how big your tank is - you're still going to drain it eventually - and then it's definately going to take awhile to fill back up. A drained yellow top with a healthy alternator, you can expect several (Normally 4-12) hours of driving without your radio on, or at least not turned up loud - before the battery is once again fully charged. You'll end up doing the 'drive for 10 minutes charging my battery, so I can bump most of my favorite song clear through.' It's really not cool. Oh - also - maybe your car is more sensitive than your electronics.. This means you could literally stall your car with your radio.. All of the sudden - poof - no ABS, no power steering, etc.. I believe yellow tops are rated for around 300ish cycles in their lifetime... ---------------------------------------- The power has to come from somewhere. Batteries dont magically recharge themselves. You'd be better off contacting Nathan @ Excessiveamperage.com, and getting a cheap HO alternator, and a $30 walmart deep cycle battery, than you would be just getting an optima yellow top and hoping everythings going to be ok. |
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Gold Member Username: Dustin3Tigard, Or U.S. Post Number: 1840 Registered: Oct-05 | In my last post i meant for the time being (maybe a week or two) like you said seth, as time goes its going to get very ugly. save up some money and def get the HO alt. i didnt mean to say dont get one, because you def NEED one. For that amount, nate suggests a 120 + amp alt. contact him |
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Gold Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 1226 Registered: Jun-05 | Ahh, right on. Just misunderstood what you meant, my bad. Personally, I'd recommend a 200 amp alt, just because they're around $300ish normally with Nate (I think.. I paid like $317 for mine after S&H and had it in my hand less than a week later), and leaves plenty of room to upgrade. |
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Gold Member Username: Dustin3Tigard, Or U.S. Post Number: 1851 Registered: Oct-05 | and it isnt much of a diff either price wise from 140 to 200 right? |
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Bronze Member Username: MightytibianPost Number: 15 Registered: Dec-05 | I emailed Nate awaiting his response now. Thanks again for all your help. |
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Silver Member Username: DkchillinVermont Post Number: 142 Registered: Mar-05 | Bret, Seth and Bassman3 have both given you great information, and as I said, Nate should be able to give you a decent price on a HO alt. However, I want to reiterate what I said before, that it behooves you to get your current alt tested before doing anything else. I don't know how much wattage you're feeding that type R sub, and I'm not saying that a HO alt isn't a good idea for any setup that puts additional strain on your charging system since your stock alt is designed to run your car, not a bunch of extra electronics, BUT there's no reason a single sub with an RMS of 500W should be killing your battery to the extent that it sounds like it is, and in all honesty if you can find a slightly higher amp OEM alt that might fit, you'll save a lot of cash. If money isn't an issue and you don't have a problem shelling out the 2 or 3 bills for the HO alt, then by all means go that way, just trying to save you some cash since you're already in the hole a new battery. For instance, I put a 105 amp OEM alt in my old Grand AM when all the new models went to that amperage stock from 80 amps. Just a thought. Obviously though, if you're looking to upgrade in the future then a HO alt is a good idea anyway. |
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Silver Member Username: QuigPittsburgh, Pa Us Post Number: 128 Registered: Sep-05 | i had this problem too... it turnedo ut my battery terminals were loose, tightened up and dint need a jump start yet. just recheck ur terminals is what i suggest. |
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Gold Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 1231 Registered: Jun-05 | Darek, if his car runs after being jump started, it's not his alternator. The battery is what should have enough stored electricity to start the car. If your alternator is bad, and you get a jumpstart, even if your battery is good, you'll only run for minutes (more likely seconds) after the terminals are disconnected. If your battery is dead, and you get a jump start - but your alternator is good, in most cases the car should be able to keep running off just the alternator. (assuming it's one that has output at idle rpms) |
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Gold Member Username: Iufan4lifeulPost Number: 1105 Registered: May-05 | Guys, I know people here like a HO alternator because everything can be solved with one (not saying they are bad because big watt applications definately need them) but he has 1 Type R and a California Profile amplifier. The current draw of the amp isn't more than 30 or 40 amps at the maximum. Just get the new battery, the system isn't affecting your car. I am running a Crossfire 600D (879rms@14.4v) off my stock 85 amp alternator and it is fine (although I might have it rebuilt to about 110 or 120 just so I can add a couple more electronic devices). |
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Gold Member Username: Dustin3Tigard, Or U.S. Post Number: 1904 Registered: Oct-05 | we are not saying to get a HO alt from nate or anything. Just get a OEM one for pretty cheap. he should have his alt tested to make sure that it working properly and powering everything correctly before he buys one anyways.... |
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Gold Member Username: FandimReno, Nevada United State... Post Number: 1235 Registered: Jun-05 | Should definitely have it tested. A dead battery can be a sign of a failing alternator.. (Easy to kill non-Deep cycle batteries with just a few complete discharges) So that could be a reason for the battery even dying - the alternator. But also - even if it wasnt, you should have it checked again - as a dying/dead battery also puts huge stress on the alternator, and can damage the alt very quickly.. all in all.. It's never a bad idea to upgrade both your alternator, and battery(ies) at the same time. Also - Chris, you're mentioning 40 amps of draw at maximum on a 85 amp alternator - the alternator will not produce enough to sustain a 40 amp draw after the cars electronics, too. This will eventually wear on the battery, and let it be drained, and if it's non-deep-cycle, put him right back in the same situation where he is right now. Also - a lot of amplifiers produce a VASTLY different amount of power at lower voltages. Take a HiFonics Brutus 1500D - at 14.4 volts, it produces 1360 watts, but at 13 volts, is already down to 981 watts. Now - when your alternator cant produce enough juice - your batteries are called on. They provide a 12.6v current. So remember that not only are you putting a lot of stress on that alternator, your system wont be working at peak performance.. (This is going for unregulated amps, of course.) |
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Bronze Member Username: MightytibianPost Number: 16 Registered: Dec-05 | Hey im brets friend. using his name to explain this stuff real quick. ok first of all the neon lights hooked up wrong because the switch was between the ballast and the lights and the battery connected to the battery so it drew charge with the battery off and wouldn't start as a result. that happened for about a week before he disconnected them from the battery so i don't believe the problems are related. but you gotta keep in mind that brets car has a lot of accessories and already demands a lot from the alternator with all his speakers and 1000 watt amp & sub it takes a lot more from the alternator. now most people know that starting a car is done by the battery and all the operating while the engines running is done by the alternator. excess charge is sent to the battery for the next startup. i believe the accessories are using the excess energy so it never gets the chance to charge the battery. and the sub if using to much power can take it from the battery. its not uncommon in my expieriences to rewind the alternator with more brushes or get an aftermarket this was before optima were known also. rewinding the alternator is cheaper probaably less expensive than a new yellow top but for his needs he needs the yellow and not the red. im sure he needs a new alternator that has enough power to use the accessories and charge the battery. i'm going to test his alternator for him and figure this out for him but im gonna find some to rewire the alternator. peace out |
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