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Bronze Member
Username: Bigsim

Post Number: 36
Registered: Jan-06
Hi everyone,
Sorry to start another 'which speaker' thread, but I really need to know. Through my reading of the forums, I've come to get a taste for the really good high-end speakers people like (dynaudio, SEAS lotus, etc) but I hear these tend to bring out the flaws in badly recorded music.

Since this is mostly what I'm gonna be listening to, what's the best set of components for the job?
 

New member
Username: Killswitchjd

Post Number: 3
Registered: Apr-06
Go to the car Audio Forum Bragging area and see my take on it...
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5925
Registered: May-04
Polk SRs are a good set in that price range if that's the kind of stuff you listen to. Smooth set, but still very detailed. Something like those SEAS Lotus/Excel drivers will have that last bit of inner detail and realism, but on poor recordings they'll be better defined as "brutally revealing"-you'll hear every flaw in there.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Killswitchjd

Post Number: 20
Registered: Apr-06
Im going to say reference series components... https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/car-audio/215626.html
 

Bronze Member
Username: Bigsim

Post Number: 38
Registered: Jan-06
Thanks for your help Jonathan (yours too Nate), always very helpful. The retail on the Polk SR's is probably a bit out of my range, but I'll definitely keep an eye out for used ones on ebay (I'm in no rush, waiting to buy a p780mp).

Meanwhile, I saw some rainbow germaniums on ebay that are closer to my price range (they're new, but), do they compare, or do you need to go into rainbow's higher end for a more realistic comparison?
Thanks again :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Alteraudiousa

Concord

Post Number: 583
Registered: Jan-06
you could go with some CDT HD series or the Boston Z series.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Bigsim

Post Number: 40
Registered: Jan-06
Ok guys, this is what I've discovered.

Boston z6, (or would I be better off with the pro series? I've read these don't get real loud)
Polk sr6500, (heard good things about these)
Rainbow Profi cs265,
DLS iridium 6.2 (mixed reviews)

all fall into my price range roughly if I buy on ebay. I'm sure I'd be happy with whatever I picked from this (from what I hear), but if you had to choose, which would suit my needs the best? (my needs being a nice clear, detailed (but not brutally :-)) set, with a decently punchy midbass). I'm gonna be running an old-school 12w6 (not a v2) with them, if it's any help.

Thanks again again.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Bigsim

Post Number: 42
Registered: Jan-06
Okay, I think my major challenge is going to be deciding which implementation I want these speakers for, whether I want top-line, accurate sound reproduction, (Boston Z-series and Polk SR's) or whatever the Boston Pro's and Polk MMC's give me, but the trouble is it's a tough call without hearing at least something similar to both of these speakers.
I'm going to endeavour (that's how we spell it in Aus :-)) to find my way into a shop that sells quality home audio speakers and at least see if I can't get a better idea of what each one represents. I've read shining reviews of the sr6500's, but I don't want to make that much of an investment if they arrive and I'm saying 'these aren't what I expected...'.

Once again, thanks for your help guys, now I've got a clearer idea in my mind of what to look for, so hopefully (eventually) I'll end up with a nice sounding car system.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Blair

Brisbane, Queensland Australia

Post Number: 33
Registered: May-05
I see from Australia as well Simon. Finding suppliers of high end equipment is few and far between and I have found it much better to consult people from forums like this and buy online. Buying online is about half the Australian retail price. Downside is you can't audition them.

I have the Boston Pros and aren't completely satisified with them. Mid bass is lacking and the tweeter is a little harsh. I am yet to run the them via the 1/3 octave eq i have. Maybe then results will improve. I am trying to decide on new set and are pretty much thinking of the same sets.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Bigsim

Post Number: 44
Registered: Jan-06
Thanks for your help Blair, on that advice I'll steer away from the Boston Pros.

I keep reading great reviews on the sr6500's, so if I see these for the right price I think I'll grab them.
 

New member
Username: Mosmooth

CA USA

Post Number: 3
Registered: Apr-06
I am also deciding between the Seas Lotus Reference and the Polk SR6500 sets. Is there alot of differnce between the detail and smoothness of the sets. I am also somewhat fearfull of the Seas on bad recordings but if the imaging, detail and smoothness are comprimised that much with the Polk then I might choose the Seas. Does anyone have an opinion if any detail and smoothness is lost, and if signifigant, between the two sets?

Jonathan....Have you listened to both sets? Which do you prefer? Why?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5974
Registered: May-04
I prefer the Lotus components personally. They aren't harsh at all, very smooth set, it's just that the level of detail brings out flaws in poor recordings. In general, pretty much any high end component set is going to bring more detail to the table, and at the same time make recorded flaws more apparent when you listen to them. That doesn't mean that set is unpleasant to listen to or harsh :-).
 

Bronze Member
Username: Johammbass

Cork, Cork Ireland

Post Number: 21
Registered: May-06
OK,
Rainbows simply suck "off axis" overpriced crap.
ANYBODY that competes in IASCA will tell you that DLS will blow Bostons away. And Polk isn't even in the same class with Iridium. I mean nobody competes with Polk in SQL.

Go with DLS and you will love it:-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Johammbass

Cork, Cork Ireland

Post Number: 39
Registered: May-06
I found Lotus's highs to be somewhat similar to MBQ QSD, get tired listening to it. Soft dome sounds much sweeter. Like you could crank Morel all day and not get tired of it even if it's Metallica, that's the way it should be I think:-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5976
Registered: May-04
The SRs are newer, based on their Lsi home audio speakers. And they will flat smoke a set of Iridium 2 ways. Really, I'd take the Boston Zs over them as well.

DLS comps are best in a 3 way fashion and the ability to tune. By themselves they really don't stand out anywhere as far as their performance. Especially considering FR, measured distortion, energy storage, crossover design, amongst other factors.

The Morel Elates are a more fair comparison, but for the price? Gimme the Lotus comps or SRs any day of the week. Morel is starting to suffer from their outdated motor design and their quality control is sinking. Really, the same applies for Dyn, but Dyn drivers tend to perform much better.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5977
Registered: May-04
It's important to note that car audio components aren't really standout performers to begin with. Most don't perform worth half or even 1/4 their cost.

Competition is primarily based upon who is and isn't sponsored. If you really want to know what the good drivers are, look at who chose them and paid for them because of their performance, not what they were given by a manufacturer. Past that, install and tuning account for far more than equipment, people have won competitions with factory systems before. The good thing about a car is that it's such a terrible acoustic environment that a car's inherent issues are far worse than the differences you'll have with drivers of different quality levels. Most that consistently place well with sponsored systems tend to use "prototype" drivers, which are usually home audio drivers shoved beneath a grill so that you can't make out what it really is. Biggs and Eldridge are an example.

The best midbass drivers you could hope for will have their roots on a home audio midbass driver that you can pick up for a cool $100-200 each. Among the better performers are SEAS Excels, Peerless Exclusives, Scanspeak Revelators, Vifa XG/XT offerings, some of the Eton and Accuton offerings are notable as well. Even some of the standard offerings of all those manufacturers are better than most of the industry's offerings.

Dyn, Morel, and DLS are losing ground in the market because their competitors are quickly walking past them. The main reason Dynaudio and Focal withdrew from the DIY market is because they neglected their competition and people began to realize that they weren't worth half what they cost. Dyn, DLS, and Morel are all based on the same technologies and consequently all are becoming rapidly outdated as they haven't put a lot of effort into improving upon anything since Scaaning developed these technologies for Dyn in the 1980s. The most recent notable improvement was when Dyn licensed some Scanspeak technology by adding copper to the motor, and the others being some of their tweeter technologies. None are really stellar performers anymore, even the Dayton Reference drivers can outperform them while being available from Parts Express for a cool ~$30 each. I love my Dyns, but as time moves on you really start to realize their drawbacks in comparison to other offerings available, it's more on par with today's mid-fi than "high end" anymore. Morel and DLS are even worse examples.

The good thing is that even with their drawbacks, the above mentioned drivers still outperform 99% of stuff in the car audio world, which can arguably make them a good value.
 

Gold Member
Username: Rzarector

Coquitlam, Bc Canada

Post Number: 1191
Registered: Dec-04
im always dumbfounded as to how you know so much about speakers.. "hails" speaker god
 

Gold Member
Username: Suleman36

Maryland U.S.A.

Post Number: 3684
Registered: Feb-05
You talking about these Dayton Referance Drivers Jonathan ?

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-364

Whould they be used as a subwoofer or a midrange or rearfill ?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Bigsim

Post Number: 69
Registered: Jan-06
Why do people bother with "high-end" car audio components at all then? Or are there some where the price:performance ratio is justified?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5978
Registered: May-04
Because most can't design a passive crossover, or don't want to pay for an active crossover and the necessary amplification. That's the only thing that limits them from buying raw drivers.

Yes, I was talking about those drivers. They have a non-shielded 4 ohm version for car use, BTW.
 

Gold Member
Username: Suleman36

Maryland U.S.A.

Post Number: 3685
Registered: Feb-05
They are classified under subwoofer. Whould this be used as a midbass or rearfill or both ?

How does it compare with the Tang Band 6.5
 

Bronze Member
Username: Mythy225719

Post Number: 52
Registered: Apr-06
Jonathan ,



I would love to hear your veiws on the CDT 62 HD's... Please coment!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Johammbass

Cork, Cork Ireland

Post Number: 41
Registered: May-06
Well I really wouldn't start throwing home drivers into a car (however I have done it a few times), the environment is different, humidity, stress etc. But you could always give it a shot.

In European SQL competition (and in The States) even non sponsored guys were using DLS drivers and with great success to say the least. It's not like nobody has Seas drivers in the comps, but they simply don't win that much.

And yeah, I would take Revelators over Seas any day. Scanspeak is about as ultimate as it gets, if don't get into some super puper speakers for $100000 a pair:-) Well that's just me.

BTW, Madisound will make a Passive x-over to any specs needed and any building components wanted.

And the coolest thing on my block is - Morel has come out with a Supremo woofer!!!
Supremo+Supremo=fantastic, well I am not sure yet about the x-over used on that set, but it shall kick some serious axx.
I am getting one:-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5979
Registered: May-04
Some aren't that bad in a car. The glues aren't as much an issue, but paper cone drivers are a no-no.

I prefer the W18NX Excel over a Revelator, personally. Newer design with lower distortion, fewer energy storage issues, a longer stroke, a better motor design, lower inductance curve. Both are really easy to listen to and work with, though. Revelators were mainly what they were aiming for with those drivers, basically to accomodate those that can't/don't want to design a crossover for the mag cone drivers. I prefer the mag cone excels over all of them, easily the highest resolution midwoofer ever made.

Plus there's the fact that there are a ton of Scanspeak clones out there willing to give you the same thing for less than half the price.

All of them are in super expensive home audio towers, though, even the Dyn drivers are. If I chose from the Scaaning camp it would be ATC drivers, though.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5980
Registered: May-04
The SEAS drivers have won a lot of comps, European championships, a lot of comps here as well. They haven't been in car audio as long, but their home audio drivers have been in a lot of winning cars.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mikechec9

Post Number: 2392
Registered: May-05
Jonathan's on a roll :-)
I havn't had the oportunity to listen to the the NEW iridium sets. Not certain if the changes are primarily cosmetic, or if the prototype tech from their 8" was implemented. Also, Genesis does a good job with the Scanpeak drivers.
I personally like paper cones' accuracy. Granted, I'm looking for a more adequate replacement for the 6.5". Actually getting board with my 6.3 set as a whole. And right about the time I get them perfected (about 3 months off).
Don't sleep on the Polk SR. And keep in mind the individuals winning with DLS. They are no ho's. They know what they're doing. Iv'e given the example of Eldridge and Biggs slaughtering all the comp with kicker and jbl numerous times. That goes to show just how much knowledge and install experience go into winning, over equipment used.

 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5981
Registered: May-04
Then you look at Buwalda's own speakers, which many say walk all over his Iridium setup. Then you see the test of that Legatia 3" mid-couldn't go under 1% distortion at any frequency with a 90db drive level.

The Aura NS-3 will outperform it and has a much larger bandwidth. All for a measly $20 each.
 

Gold Member
Username: Redliner

Wilmington, Ma

Post Number: 1837
Registered: Jun-05
so jonathan what would you say is the best 6.5 set around 5-6 hundred if i was looking for it to go around a dd 9512 and i already have a jl 300/2 for them just 2 ways not 3 ways
 

Bronze Member
Username: Mythy225719

Post Number: 53
Registered: Apr-06
Jonathan ,



I would love to hear your veiws on the CDT 62 HD's... Please coment!
 

Gold Member
Username: Suleman36

Maryland U.S.A.

Post Number: 3686
Registered: Feb-05
Josh, that is a excellant set. I have the CDT HD62's with the 560 crossover and DRT26 SAT tweeters. The silk and aluminum are impressive. Best set ive owned.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mikechec9

Post Number: 2393
Registered: May-05
"Then you look at Buwalda's own speakers, which many say walk all over his Iridium setup. Then you see the test of that Legatia 3" mid-couldn't go under 1% distortion at any frequency with a 90db drive level."

How audible do you suspect that distortion to be? As you've maintained, the IR-3- or even the 6.3- doesn't necessarily "tangibly" test all that well either. And, granted, there is still a substantial amount of audible distortion around which to tune (w/the 3" in particular). But the set still performs well in practice (relatively speaking, of course).

So, do you think that the legatia is just lacking on paper or in practice? I chatted with Andy from Buwalda's team, and (of course) he maintains that the distortion isn't audible, and the set performs wonderfully. I'm personally skeptical. Even though he insists that his review was done without bias and before he even joined Team Hybrid.

"The Aura NS-3 will outperform it and has a much larger bandwidth. All for a measly $20 each."

That works :-)
Which one, the 8a or 8a1?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5982
Registered: May-04
You're starting to get into the limitations of the car environment. Considering the terrible acoustic properties of a vehicle, especially at speed, 10% distortion is generally considered to be the threshold of audibility. In a home, 1% is what's considered the threshold.

The imaging capabilities of a driver usually outweigh it's disadvantages with distortion or energy storage. A 3" midrange driver has good dispersion and can typically be crossed high enough that you can put tweeters in the pillars without huge side effects since we're most dependant upon intensity for imaging above 5-6khz or so. There is also a flexibility that wide bandwidth drivers offer. That usually outweighs the tradeoffs.

Comparing my Dyn mids and the W11CYs I picked up on the Madisound sale, for example, the W11CYs stomp all over them in every category I can think of (within the limitations of both, of course). And that's the older driver with the older frame and motor design. But once I put both in my truck and compared, the differences were fewer due to the issues presented by the vehicle. Still a noticeable change, just not the "wow" factor like comparing the two in my home. Really I'm considering designing a TL enclosure and making a little mini-monitor out of them, then putting some cheaper mids in the truck like Peerless Exclusives.

I do feel that the point of diminishing returns occurs much more quickly in the car environment than it does in a home. I guess you could say that there is a such thing as "too high end" in a car, or at least the fact that the car environment will never be capable of realizing the full capabilities of any type of driver.

When you consider those Iridium mids, for example (and the same would apply to other dome mids, be they Usher, Dyn, Morel, etc), the distortion down low is pretty bad. They don't even have a spider, much less a highly linear motor design. But since it's an enclosed aperiodic design, it doesn't see the energy storage that a typical door/kick panel install would present. Add the fact that they're easy to install and aim and it makes them worth consideration.

About the Aura mid, either/or. Same driver, different cone color :-)

The main reason I don't choose drivers based upon what's winning competitions is because it doesn't really tell you anything about driver quality or sound quality. Assume I don't like horns. But in upper classes that require two seat judging, Image Dynamics horns are going to bring home the trophies. Not necessarily because they sound the greatest to everyone, it's just the fact that horns simply offer better imaging capabilities than most conventional setups do, at least in terms of two seat judging.

I recall when Focal was dipping into competition, and you had so many competitors running an Audiom 6W mid and the Audiom tweeter in the pillars. Most of the vehicles sounded as if someone were banging trash cans together. But the waveguide afforded good imaging in pillars, which tended to drive the scores higher despite the horrendous sound quality of most of them. Some did it right and the setup sounded great. Most of them didn't, though, and many still brought home trophies because they played their cards right.

You're also depending upon the skill of the competitor to tune his vehicle to cater to the reference material. Would you want your Iridium midbasses crossed at 31hz in a daily application? I wouldn't think so, but it helped Buwalda win finals because of the specific reference material in hand.

It's all about skill level, install capability, determination, and the ear for tuning. I'd better dollars to donuts that Mark Eldridge or Gary Biggs could win competitions with Sony Xplod or Pioneer equipment. It doesn't make it a good product, just whose hands it's in.

What really needs to happen is a league dedicated solely to sound quality instead of install creativity and SPL points. The main reason I never had interest in competing was due to the fact that it's set up all wrong.

Personally I'm more of an objectivist. Primarily because I've never heard a good driver that tested poorly. Specs are the only thing an engineer can go by when designing a product and (hopefully) improving upon it. Specs also don't lie and aren't biased. I believe that anything, be it amplifiers, speakers, subwoofers, whatever, can be summed up with specifications assuming that we are knowledgeable enough to know what they can and can't tell us.

I also look at what the subjective camp has contributed to the industry. Primarily a bunch of snake oil that we tend to spend most of our time dispelling. Magic pixie dust that seems to right all wrongs with inferior equipment :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Mikechec9

Post Number: 2394
Registered: May-05
I think that's likely one of the more profound posts I've considered in quite a while. And I can relate (to a far lesser degree ;) ). Even though competition monitors install integrity pretty fiercely, the judging still seems like it's a matter of "what I can get away with," or "how can I manipulate the situation based on the rules" instead of pure sq like you suggested. The ID horns are a great example, and I've never even heard of the Audiom "technique" (sure hope my 3", 1" a-pillar job doesn't sound like trash cans). But as far as the install goes, that's why I really can't wait to get my own garage. The friend helping out with my truck cuts corners because it saves time and he can get away with it. But when you KNOW better, you're really only fooling yourself. At least that's how I view it. Like you said, the environment provides enough issues working against us as it is (But, then again, I think everyone should be a perfectionist).

So, I think that can be added to your objectivist view on driver distortion, granted that I don't misunderstand. Either it performs well or it doesn't-regardless of how it appears. Especially if you have personally witnessed the driver's inadequacies and experienced the difference that transfer function makes (traditionally speaking, not "cabin gain"). I don't care what anyone says. When it comes to sound, nothing supercedes true experience and the subsequent perspectives it affords. While I'm trying to gain ground in that regard, I think we are all in awe of your "travels in the genre." In addition to your knowledge of acoustic laws and the ilk, of course :-)

Speaking (OT) of the a-pillar install though, I can't help but wonder what potential difference keeping the current 3" in the doors would have on widening the stage, as I understand a narrow stage is a drawback of such installs. So running four 3" in other words. Or would that just confuse the image?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5983
Registered: May-04
"Jonathan ,

I would love to hear your veiws on the CDT 62 HD's... Please coment!"

It's a good performing set. Competitors would be the JL XRs, perhaps some Quart Premiums.

Vifa drivers, they're good for the money. Set as a whole is tailored to work in door locations, so for most people they work really well.

Past those components (Eurosports, 07s, etc), I don't really feel that CDTs are a great value. Drivers just really aren't great performers in that price range.
 

Gold Member
Username: Suleman36

Maryland U.S.A.

Post Number: 3696
Registered: Feb-05
I can agree to what jonathan said about the CDT's.

The HD 62's are a great set for the money but anything above it like the Eurosports etc.. are not worth the money for what you get and are better off with seas, dynaudio, focal, Polk SR, DLS, etc...

CDT HD series are one of the best component sets for its price range.
 

New member
Username: Sqlover

Post Number: 2
Registered: May-06
How would you all compare dynaudio, morel, cdt to Rainbows (not the reference line) but their regular line up like xplain, dreamline, soundline series, germanium series?

thanks in advance
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5985
Registered: May-04
Dyn and Morel are above those lines. Profi and Profi Vanadiums are more on par with Dyn and Morel. Platinums are a step above IMO.

CDT-depends on which ones you're talking about.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ogduncan

Post Number: 55
Registered: Apr-06
jonathon i see you went with the dyna 360 system. Why did you choose that system and if you could go back what system would you get at that price range
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5986
Registered: May-04
At the time I was a retailer and got the system for nothing, also was the better of what we offered. I chose it because it was more complete than their 2 way systems, mainly in upper midrange performance. With the 2 ways the tweeter is more strained down low and thin, midbass driver doesn't do the best crossed higher either.

Main drawback to the three ways is the crossover design, especially the HPF for the midrange driver. Dyn passive uses a 1st order (electronic) x-over for the midrange driver, it really needs at least a 2nd order to keep excursion and thus distortion down as frequencies get lower.

In the price range I'd get SEAS Lotus comps or the Polk SRs probably. SRs weren't out at the time, Lotus I hadn't heard at that time. I had heard the Excel drivers in a home audio application, but it's hard to compare the home and car. Lotus tweeter is definately the best low end of any compact tweet I've heard, but you trade off extension above 10-12khz or so. I'd rather have better performance in the upper midrange/lower treble region, anyway, top end really doesn't have a lot of critical information-primarily it's just harmonics.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ogduncan

Post Number: 56
Registered: Apr-06
does placement of the mids matter. my corvette has 2 10in holes right behind the seats that would fit the bigger mid driver of the polk sr's and 5.25 holes that would fit the smaller mids in the doors.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ogduncan

Post Number: 57
Registered: Apr-06
never mind i forgot the 10in holes are in the door and the 5.25 are in the back
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ogduncan

Post Number: 58
Registered: Apr-06
i listened to the polk sr's today, the jl stuff and the focal's. The focals sounded sounded the best. the jl highs were too bright for me. and the polk's mids didnt have any depth too them although highs sounded good
 

New member
Username: Sqlover

Post Number: 4
Registered: May-06
This has been the issue about Polk Sr's their mids arent deep. Which focal set are you talking about GORDON that sounded good to you? Also JONATHAN, how would you compare Seas Lotus Performace Range and DLS Ultimate UP6, which one would you prefer?

 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5992
Registered: May-04
Most mids don't sound deep at all on a wall, it'll sound completely different in a car. Cabin gain accounts for a lot. A speaker that sounds warm and has a lot of bass on a wall will typically sound really heavy and muddy in a car door. Usually even a speaker that sounds perfect on a wall isn't so in a car. With any speaker system, it's best to audition them in a vehicle instead of a soundboard.

I'm not really a Focal fan, but there are a lot of people that like them. Or better put, I'm not the best person to talk you into Focal :-). Focals tend to be pretty poor performers for the price you pay.
 

New member
Username: Sqlover

Post Number: 5
Registered: May-06
JONATHAN, how would you compare Seas Lotus Performace Range and DLS Ultimate UP6, which one would you prefer?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5994
Registered: May-04
I like the Performance set better. More detailed and realistic to me, better motor design as well.
 

New member
Username: Joeypasta

Bedford, Texas

Post Number: 8
Registered: Feb-06
Jonathan,
If I am reading your posts correctly, then I can go to Madisound pick up some Vifa drivers for cheap, and if I install them properly then I will get just as good sound as the expensive speakers?
I live in Ft. Worth, Texas, and drive a Dodge Ram quad cab. Do you know of any good installers in my area? Also, can I use either my headunit's crossover or buy A/D/S crossovers to use with the Vifa drivers? My amplifier is an old school A/D/s Pq10. Thank You for your insights.
 

New member
Username: Mosmooth

CA USA

Post Number: 4
Registered: Apr-06
I was also deciding between the Polk SR6500s and the Seas Lotus Reference. I took the plunge and I just purchased a set of Seas Lotus Comps but havent installed yet. They will go in my truck in the next couple of weeks. Still have to mount and install Zapco amps. The new set (which was just released)has upgraded tweeters that are said to have more extension on top. I was also told that the metal tweeter is discontinued due to the fabric tweet having better extension up top. Cant wait to listen to them. I am going to install 6.5 in stock door location as I dont want lose floor space. Does anyone have suggestions to tweeter locations? I was thinking in the stock Bose pillar locations or more foward in the corner with custom pods and angle back to opposite window @ top back part of front window. Would this produce good off axis response and imaging? Thanks for any comments!!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ogduncan

Post Number: 60
Registered: Apr-06
the installer at sound advice said that the polks are like that in the car as well. And Love sq i lestined to the 165k2p's and a cheaper set not sure which. the k2p were better
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5995
Registered: May-04
Completely different in a car. Different transfer function, different enclosure size, also they'd be in off axis locations.

They do have different performance. Polk SR has a flatter response, Focals tend to have a large peak in the midbass region, especially around 80hz or so. To some it will subjectively seem tighter. The K2Ps have a more colored, warmer midrange as well. Again, subjective. Not my cup of tea, but my ears are different than yours as well as many others.

Giving you an idea of what I prefer, I like a more neutral midrange reproduction and a flat bass response. To most people it will sound thin or flat, especially in the bass and lower midrange regions.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Bigsim

Post Number: 74
Registered: Jan-06
I have a question (out of curiosity): if two sets of speakers are completely linear, will they sound exactly the same?
 

New member
Username: Scott_buwalda

Post Number: 3
Registered: Mar-05
"Then you look at Buwalda's own speakers, which many say walk all over his Iridium setup. Then you see the test of that Legatia 3" mid-couldn't go under 1% distortion at any frequency with a 90db drive level."

-----------------------------------

Hiya gents! And by the way, is that Jonathan Frank I see??!! What's up brother?

You should all be very skeptical of one set of results. This has been by far the most damaging "review" of the Legatia L3's; folks think that since its written on the internet, that it's the gospel truth.

I submit to you, Mike, and others that have the interest, that I have sent a pair of L3's to a professional reviewer in England with a bevy of super high-end test gear (exceeding 50,000 GBP). He is compiling the test results right now. The first run showed at least 20 dB less second order distortion then as previously advertised on the DIY forum, and this was in a baffle that he considered to be inferior, and exhibiting baffle modes. Here's the link to his most recent update (the tester's user name is Puggie---scroll down about 2/3 of the way, and read through to the second page):

http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=159363&highlight=legatia

It is my plea to the car audio community to be skeptical about anything you read on a forum somewhere, until which time you can learn more about the product and the circumstances by which it was tested in. This DIY review has been extremely damaging...and it's the only "not so great" review of the Legatia L3. Funny, no one seems to notice the 30-40 threads praising the Legatia L3's since they were released six weeks ago, or the fact that just about every weekend, some competitor somewhere is winning with them (novice and amateur competitors that might not tune like a Buwalda/Eldridge/Biggs, etc.)...type in "Legatia" into the more popular forums and read for yourself. And if you're still not convinced, go back onto the DIY thread and read what BigTube1 wrote...completely by his own doing. I am willing to make the same deal I made to him to anyone that's serious about trying the L3's...I am that convinced in their performance.

Scott

 

New member
Username: Scott_buwalda

Post Number: 4
Registered: Mar-05
By the way, I just had a look around, and this forum rocks!
 

Gold Member
Username: Basshead86

Google is your Friend, FL

Post Number: 3443
Registered: Aug-05
i dunno exactly who you are.....but i am in awe......that says something doesn't it? lol

you must be important if Jonathan mentions you.:-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Basshead86

Google is your Friend, FL

Post Number: 3444
Registered: Aug-05
is there a link to a site for these speakers?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 5998
Registered: May-04
Scott,

First of all, welcome to our forum. It's nice to see one of the greats on here.

Second, seeing the commentary upon that link as well as some others I've searched for recently, I sincerely apologize for my previous statements. The more I look at some of the testing, the more suspect a lot of it becomes. On top of that, that forum itself has others coming on questioning the testing methods and saying their testing was different (usually having better results). I've been out of the circle a while and my judgement is admittedly fuzzy in a lot of areas. As I look at a lot of the curves, my rather dated ability to judge this (especially baffle step) is starting to make me question his methods now that it has been brought to my attention. I do appreciate this since I've used that site as a reference from time to time. It's not good for my credibility as well as others to use flawed or biased results as a reference, obviously the entire point of it is to be fair and objective. Prior I'd known he used Klippel, and I assumed he was just as serious with the rest of his testing. That's what assuming gets you, though.

Mike and I had talked a lot about the release of the drivers and both of us have been really excited. Admittedly I was a bit disappointed once I saw that review of them since my expectations were higher. It's a good thing I was wrong in that regard, though. I'm glad that we now have more professional testing methods on the way, I've tracked that forum from time to time and have seen enough of Puggie's posts that I definately trust his level of knowledge.

As a fellow Georgia boy :-), I'm in Atlanta from time to time. I'd love to get the priviledge to be able to audition the drivers, especially in a car if any of you have the time of day. Both for my own potential purchase and upon hearing them I'd be more than happy to put a review on the forums I frequent, as well as DIYMA to help spread the gospel.

Again, my apologies,

Jonathan

Muddy, he's the guy from Quantum Leap. Ok, that was a bad joke, sorry :-) Seriously, though, he's a multiple time IASCA champion.
 

New member
Username: Scott_buwalda

Post Number: 5
Registered: Mar-05
Hi Jonathan.

Not a problem mate...I wasn't posting this info to call anyone out...but to merely point out to everyone that just because something is written on the internet, and especially the forums, it doesn't make it true. In fact, considering the source and testing style described, it couldn't be further from the truth.

An infinite baffle speaker, a small one at that, needs to be tested in a baffle under a bit more precise and accurate conditions (precision and accuracy have specific definitions---anyone foggy on them from Physical Science 101 should really look at their definitions). There needs to be a calibration proceedure, and the room needs to be well damped. And the baffle needs to be rigid and not exhibit its own modes. My qualm with this testing is that it's not repeatable, and not precise to other testing performed by me and others on much higher-end gear. Alas, I will await the testing done by Puggie, and can post it here just the same.

And yes, I know you're from Georgia (although I must have mistaken you for another car audiophile here in GA named Jonathan Frank). I have two Team Hybrids cars from Alabama, and these guys are ripping up the scene in MECA and IASCA. One of them is currently unbeaten in MECA competition! Between the two of them, they're hittng 10-15 shows this year. I understand both cars sound great. I am also working on the eBay Project 240, Part II, which will use the entire Legatia 63 front stage, with the 7.4" Legatia midbass and 3.7" Legatia midrange in the kicks, and the Legatia 19mm tweeters in the pillars (BTW, I am so glad to read that you like paper coned mids and midbass and small diameter tweeters!) This car will be out and about in about 60 days. Anytime you're in the area, give me a call, and we'll meet up somewhere! :-)

And to Muddy Waters, the site is http://www.hybrid-audio.com. We have just launched our very first speaker, the Legatia L3 3" wide-bandwidth midrange. The 19mm tweeter will be here in about three weeks, and the 7.4" midbass, about 60-75 days. In about 120 days, the Legatia 62 and 63 kits will be available. Come check us out!

I don't know if this site allows group buys, but I would consider hosting an ecoustics forum buy for the Legatia L3's!

Oh, and a car audio reference manual and L3 owner's guide has been posted as well, giving good tips and tricks to making a car sound good: http://www.buwaldahybrids.com/Legatia.htm

Thanx for the welcome Jonathan. I'll be around a bit more often!

Scott
 

New member
Username: Scott_buwalda

Post Number: 6
Registered: Mar-05
Oh, and by the way...

Up above I mentioned how novice and amatuer competitors were winning with the L3's without big names tuning their cars. I'd like to clarify that. I am not saying that these guys can't tune their own cars...on the contrary, given they drive, work on, and listen to their cars every day, they are going to be the MOST adept at tuning them. Far be it from me to say that I could do a better job. What I was saying, rather, is that so often I read how JBL, MTX, Kicker, et. al. can be made to sound good with the right tuners. This may be partially true, but you may also be surprised at what lurks beneath non-removable grilles. Yes, the visible equipment is those brand news (amps and subs), but is the hidden gear the same brand name?) :-)

The Team Hybrids guys deserve all the credit they get for having great sounding cars---I didn't want to dimunize that in any way!

Scott
 

Gold Member
Username: Basshead86

Google is your Friend, FL

Post Number: 3447
Registered: Aug-05
That 62 set looks REALLY NICE:-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

btw. thanks for the Link.
oh, and do you have prices or RMS wattage for any of the sets yet. i am looking to upgrade my front stage.....by the end of the year at least.:-)
 

New member
Username: Scott_buwalda

Post Number: 7
Registered: Mar-05
I have pricing and all of the specifications, but they're subject to change ever so slightly because the midbass hasn't been produced yet. So we're hanging on for now. We want to make sure every speaker is right before producing them. Once they're out there, you can't be like Ford and recall them all if something is discovered later. Plus, with it being an organically grown company (self-funded, no outside interests), and all of the products being built are new designs, not re-badged drivers like seemingly just about everyone else does nowadays, it takes us longer to build speakers.

I can throw you on an e-mail list for updates if you're interested. Hit me back with your e-mail address to sbuwalda@hybrid-audio.com.

Thanks.

Scott
 

New member
Username: Scott_buwalda

Post Number: 8
Registered: Mar-05
I have pricing and all of the specifications, but they're subject to change ever so slightly because the midbass hasn't been produced in its final form yet. So we're hanging on for now. We want to make sure every speaker is right before producing them. Once they're out there, you can't be like Ford and recall them all if something is discovered later. Plus, with it being an organically grown company (self-funded, no outside interests), and all of the products being built are new designs, not re-badged drivers like seemingly just about everyone else does nowadays, it takes us longer to build speakers.

I can throw you on an e-mail list for updates if you're interested. Hit me back with your e-mail address to sbuwalda@hybrid-audio.com.

Thanks.

Scott
 

Gold Member
Username: Basshead86

Google is your Friend, FL

Post Number: 3460
Registered: Aug-05
you've been hit:-):-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Suleman36

Maryland U.S.A.

Post Number: 3783
Registered: Feb-05
Scott, good to see you on this board. I am interested in the Legatia 62 and sent you an email. Please let us know when they will be available and how much ballpark ? maybe a group buy or somthing whould be nice. I may upgrade my front stage by the end of summer or add a new component set in my SUV
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