Will I be underpowering my speakers?
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New member Username: LabmonkeyPost Number: 3 Registered: Jan-06 | I crossposted this from Amplifiers because glasswolf and jonathan typically post here and they would probably be able to answer this best. I just purchased a set of Diamond Hex s600s and s500s (Yes, I know, I don't need rear fill blah blah blah... it's a personal preference) and plan to power them with a Diamond D6600.4 amp. It's a 4 way with 75 RMS 100 peak per channel (and probably underrated). The Diamonds are rated 150 nom/300 max and 100 nom/200 max respectively. I've heard that underpowering the Hexes is a bad thing, but I'm hoping that 75-100 watts of clean power is enough to get them moving and create a decent amount of midbass. The magnets are gigantic, though, so I'm a little worried that I might be being optimistic. I have no first hand experience with the speakers powered by anything other than 300w two-ways. Does anyone have experience with the Hexes or extensive install experience with similar hard-to-drive comps? |
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Silver Member Username: N2audioLawrence, Ks USA Post Number: 208 Registered: Mar-04 | unless those are the least efficient speakers ever made 75 real watts should be more than enough to make those speakers sing. Underpowering is never a problem - setting gains like a moron is. |
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alteraudiousa Unregistered guest | underpowering is not good for any speaker. You will be under powering it. Especially since the Diamonds will make more power with more power and make less with less. I had the Diamond D5 300.4 and bridged it and i still think my Monitor 1 mk2.70 made more power. Its ALWAYS better to have headroom and just know what you're doing than to underpower them. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 5355 Registered: May-04 | Try it and see if you like the results. If you listen at very loud levels, you may very well need the headroom. Usually you are only using a couple of watts overall with the occasional transient driving that upward. In most cases 100W is enough for your average component system, in my case, Dynaudios are pretty inefficient. I try to overpower comps by a good margin simply for the extra headroom, but that doesn't mean I use all of it. You have to double power to net a 3db increase. So 150W would give you approximately 3db gain over 75W, assuming the comps handle that in your application. Remember power rating is thermal, and isn't really a requirement or a recommendation. The power level you need will be determined by the application. |
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New member Username: LabmonkeyPost Number: 5 Registered: Jan-06 | Thanks for the great response, Jonathan. |
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alteraudiousa Unregistered guest | i'll have to disagree with you Jonathan on the thermal ratings. I think most companies if not all have either gone with the mechanical limits of the speaker or a mix of both thermal ratings AND output/SQ to determine power ratings of a speaker now. Adire was the only company i knew that did thermal ratings and they changed that on their most current products and specs. So to a degree the RMS power or average overall power that a speaker is rated for is the optimum ratings that will yield the best results and still be within suitable operating levels. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 5374 Registered: May-04 | "i'll have to disagree with you Jonathan on the thermal ratings. I think most companies if not all have either gone with the mechanical limits of the speaker or a mix of both thermal ratings AND output/SQ to determine power ratings of a speaker now. Adire was the only company i knew that did thermal ratings and they changed that on their most current products and specs. So to a degree the RMS power or average overall power that a speaker is rated for is the optimum ratings that will yield the best results and still be within suitable operating levels." Some do thermal, some don't. You can be ensured that a drivers power handling won't exceed the thermal or mechanical limits in either situation. I think one of the problems in car audio is that nothing is standardized, you can't compare things from different companies. The mechanical limits of a speaker are too enclosure and frequency dependant to use them for an accurate power rating. But regardless, most mid-level car audio manufacturers design drivers where the mechanical and thermal limits are very close to one another, and underrate them enough that they won't have huge warranty claims. But regardless, it's always application dependant. If you only listen at 85db, you won't need huge power to get the result you want/need. I agree it's nice to have the headroom, which I do in my installs, but it isn't required. |
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New member Username: LabmonkeyPost Number: 6 Registered: Jan-06 | Follow-up question. I just ebayed my Alpine 9855 since their quality has taken a serious hit. I opted instead for the Eclipse 8445. My amp is rated for 5V max at minimum gain. Will the 8V preouts cause distortion and clipping at low volumes? I have a gain bypass on the amp, will this help? Or is that just for higher signal amplitudes and not voltage? Also... I was thinking about bridging my amp to get 300Wx2 @ 4 ohm and using the rear fill on the crossovers. Better idea? |
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New member Username: LabmonkeyPost Number: 7 Registered: Jan-06 | To clarify, I'm talking about the RAF (Rear Audio Fill) terminals on the Diamond crossovers. You can attenuate the signal on the crossover and I think it brings it down to 10 dbs or so. |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1935 Registered: May-05 | not certain what amp you're refering to, but bridging will generally reveal an audible level of distortion from your components. |
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Silver Member Username: N2audioLawrence, Ks USA Post Number: 246 Registered: Mar-04 | <hr> Originaly posted by Alteraudio -underpowering is not good for any speaker. <hr> That's just plain wrong Power = heat, the more heat the more possibility of damage. It's physics 101. http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm |
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Silver Member Username: N2audioLawrence, Ks USA Post Number: 247 Registered: Mar-04 | <hr> Originaly posted by Alteraudio -underpowering is not good for any speaker. <hr> That's just plain wrong Power = heat, the more heat the more possibility of damage. It's physics 101. http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm |
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Silver Member Username: N2audioLawrence, Ks USA Post Number: 248 Registered: Mar-04 | --"not certain what amp you're refering to, but bridging will generally reveal an audible level of distortion from your components."-- 0.0x to 0.x is audible?? Da|\/|n - you're good |
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Silver Member Username: N2audioLawrence, Ks USA Post Number: 252 Registered: Mar-04 | super-human in fact  |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1946 Registered: May-05 | no compliments necesarry. it does nothing for an audiophile's already optimal ego "Underpowering is never a problem" as for this point. heat does damage drivers. this results from too much power or pushing your amp too hard to compensate for your lack of power (underpowering), in fact clipping and doubling the power to the sub/vc in the process. while this might not be as severe a problem with subs, it's pretty serious with mids and highs. regardless of potential damage, underpowering won't reveal the most from your driver. so you're comps do in fact suffer from the lack of power provided. they only perform "so-so." back to the afore mentioned statement, are you suggesting that no audible distortion results from bridging an amp (or running the comps at 2ohms for that matter)? |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 5380 Registered: May-04 | Assuming you didn't clip the amp, you wouldn't hear a difference. That's a little too "best case" when you're cranking it and trying to overcome road noise at the same time. Most people do clip their amps a lot more than they think they do, and bridging does limit the effective headroom of the amplifiers power supply and output devices. If you're a nice little audiophile, you aren't trying to listen to music averaging over 100db, though . |
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Silver Member Username: N2audioLawrence, Ks USA Post Number: 259 Registered: Mar-04 | Of course bridging increases THD, but unless you're running a pyramid it's still FAR below audibility, even then, as long as you're not breaking off the volume knob THD should still be well below 1%. As for the power issue. Clipping CAN double the power from the amp, but how big of an idiot would you have to be to run your amp at 100% clipping for an extended period of time. Even for a newbie I would say that rarely happens. Give a newb a 100w amp for 100w spkrs and they have much higher odds of damaging them than they do the same spkrs and a 50w amp. |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1949 Registered: May-05 | "Of course bridging increases THD, but unless you're running a pyramid it's still FAR below audibility, even then, as long as you're not breaking off the volume knob THD should still be well below 1%." where peaks are concerned, i've noticed a significant difference above 500hz with a bridged 4ch RF. similarly, if it were just my impeccable hearing (admitedly so :P) i think 2ohm configured mid/highs would be the norm, given the obvious advantage in headroom. "but how big of an idiot would you have to be to run your amp at 100% clipping for an extended period of time. Even for a newbie I would say that rarely happens. Give a newb a 100w amp for 100w spkrs and they have much higher odds of damaging them than they do the same spkrs and a 50w amp." clearly, you'd be surprised lol. |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1950 Registered: May-05 | "Of course bridging increases THD, but unless you're running a pyramid it's still FAR below audibility, even then, as long as you're not breaking off the volume knob THD should still be well below 1%." where peaks are concerned, i've noticed a significant difference above 500hz with a bridged 4ch RF. similarly, if it were just my impeccable hearing (admitedly so :P) i think 2ohm configured mid/highs would be the norm, given the obvious advantage in headroom. jmo "but how big of an idiot would you have to be to run your amp at 100% clipping for an extended period of time. Even for a newbie I would say that rarely happens. Give a newb a 100w amp for 100w spkrs and they have much higher odds of damaging them than they do the same spkrs and a 50w amp." clearly, you'd be surprised lol. |
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Silver Member Username: N2audioLawrence, Ks USA Post Number: 263 Registered: Mar-04 | then they weren't really 100w speakers and/or it wasn't really a 100w amp. |
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