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I Think I Have a Winner

 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 189
Registered: Feb-05
This amp will give me both price affordability and power, and if I never run it full freaking tilt I can safely go w/o an alt, maybe just a capacitor.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 190
Registered: Feb-05
Oh yea, forgot the link lol.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=79829%26item%3D5756441728 %26
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 191
Registered: Feb-05
Found a new one for 269! Strangely same as refurb price...jerks trying to rip me off! This is one is not refurb, and I've bought from this seller before(who I bought the subs from) never had a problem so I guess THIS IS THE ONE...as long as Isaac approves.
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1748
Registered: Nov-04
The link doesn't work for some reason. What is it you're buying?
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 196
Registered: Feb-05
It's a Kicker KX-601.1 I believe that's it.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Minime80

Post Number: 56
Registered: Feb-05
Link works for me. It's a Kicker KX600.1
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 197
Registered: Feb-05
Er, kx-600.1 my bad
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 198
Registered: Feb-05
It's a Class D, but with that aside is it a good amp/price?
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 200
Registered: Feb-05
COME ON lol. I think this is the ONE!
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 201
Registered: Feb-05
I guess I'll just have to buy it then without approval...oh well...
 

Bronze Member
Username: Minime80

Post Number: 58
Registered: Feb-05
That's the one I was looking at before Isaac told me to look at the PPI's. I resisted for a while, but finally caved and upgraded my alternator because the kicker just couldn't hold a candle to the PPI. So, I ended up with a PPI PCX-1250 and a 140 amp alternator I picked up at a junkyard (old one was 80 amps). I've never been so excited about a silly little car part in my life. I installed the alternator this last weekend and the amp should be here tomorrow!
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 203
Registered: Feb-05
Well, that would be fine, but I have a budget of no more than 300 bucks...
 

Bronze Member
Username: Minime80

Post Number: 59
Registered: Feb-05
I'm not saying that the kicker is a bad amp though. You'll probably be perfectly happy with it.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Minime80

Post Number: 60
Registered: Feb-05
What's wrong with factory refurbished?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26item%3D5754738692&category=79829
seems like a great deal to me.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 204
Registered: Feb-05
I have a question, I can get a brand new Phoenix Gold Octane R15.0:1 for $277. Is it a bad amp? And, (this is for any amp of the sort) if a mono amp has 2 speaker outputs, are those outputs wired parallel internally as to reduce ohm load?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Minime80

Post Number: 62
Registered: Feb-05
Just judging from the specs it looks pretty nice, and has an extremely high SNR for a class D amp.
 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 1442
Registered: Aug-04
TB if you want something very good for around 300 bucks that puts out 600 watts look in the PPI A600.2
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 205
Registered: Feb-05
Isn't that a 2 channel amp though?
 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 1445
Registered: Aug-04
Yeah, I though you had 2 subs?
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1753
Registered: Nov-04
PPI's A600.2 amp will "kick" Kicker's amp in performance! It is one of the best amp ever made.
That's something worth buying.
Crap, I shouldn't be telling you to buy that amp cause I need one more pair.
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1754
Registered: Nov-04
Congradulations Nick Shoe on your alternator and PPI amp upgrade. Now you will be able to enjoy music without the annoying light dimming problem. Not only that, you will also get much tighter and smoother bass response.
TB you should listen and do what Nick did, get PPI. Heck of a lot better amp than Kicker's class d.
The reason why I am telling you this is, cause I have tested both class D and class AB side by side. The clear winner is AB, but if all you're looking for is booming bass, then D will work.
Sooner or later, people get sick of that kind of bass and look for higher quality with AB.
 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 1447
Registered: Aug-04
Yeah, I've only heard good things about the PPI's. I really don't know why TB would spend the money on the A600.2 just to run a couple of Volfenhags, but hey, he'll have a sweet amp.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 212
Registered: Feb-05
Isaac let me let you in on a little secret I need decent power for $300!!!!!! See I realize the Kicker isn't the god of amps, but I don't see why it won't work! I don't listen to rap, I listen to metal, there's not really even any "boom" in metal! If you can find my a PPI for the price of the Kicker ($259) with at LEAST 500W RMS, then I'll go for it, otherwise I have to go with Kicker!
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 213
Registered: Feb-05
Isaac let me let you in on a little secret I need decent power for $300!!!!!! See I realize the Kicker isn't the god of amps, but I don't see why it won't work! I don't listen to rap, I listen to metal, there's not really even any "boom" in metal! If you can find my a PPI(Or something equivalent) for the price of the Kicker ($259) with at LEAST 500W RMS, then I'll go for it, otherwise I have to go with Kicker!
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 214
Registered: Feb-05
****NOTE THE OR SOMETHING EQUIVALENT****
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 215
Registered: Feb-05
I did find an Orion 600D, but its the same price, and still class D.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 3444
Registered: May-04
There is nothing wrong with that Kicker amp. You won't notice huge significant differences between Class D and Class AB amplifiers for subwoofers. The Kicker is well designed and is a great amp for subs. I just don't see the point in wasting an Art series on subs (in which you really won't notice a huge difference) when you could use such a clean amp on mids and highs. A good Class D amp isn't boomy, unnatural, or nasty sounding, it's just speculation and the design that leads you to think so due to higher distortion numbers. In a double blind test you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference.
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1757
Registered: Nov-04
Well I did list few amps that were within your price and power range. Take Orion 250G4 for example. It is 400w rms minimum @ 2ohms and 800w rms @ 1ohm. Some of them sold for $200 - $300. Last I heard, TwizTid was bidding on 250G4 for $60.
PPI's 600.2 amp is 600w rms @ 4ohms bridged. They almost all sold for $250 average. Lot of PPI's PC or PCX series sell for $250 including some that were 600w rms.
I told you, there were some good amps to be had that were in the same price range as Kicker.
Don't lose out on any more. I'm telling you, for your type of music, class D won't cut it. They're good for rap and crap with lot of booming bass.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 223
Registered: Feb-05
Jonathan, if you had to choose, would you buy that Kicker amp, or Audiobahn DUB8001. The Audiobahn a/b. The Audiobahn says it puts out more power, but which one could I really depend on the most?
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 224
Registered: Feb-05
Ok then, Isaac, would you say I should get the Audiobahn since it's a/b?
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1758
Registered: Nov-04
Jonathan, I have tested class D against class AB (PPI and Orion) and at high volume, I was able to tell a difference. Enough to make me want to sell my class D amp.
The reason why I was pushing him to buy PPI art series/Orion HCCA amp was to give him more choices in the future as well as present. The only class D amp I would recommend is Zapco's C2K 9. That dosen't behave like a normal class D at all.

 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 225
Registered: Feb-05
OK, that didn't quite answer my question...but ok...
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 226
Registered: Feb-05
Eh, that Zapco is just a tad...large tad...out of my price range. Even if I HAD the money, I don't think I would blow it all on a car stereo like that.
 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 1463
Registered: Aug-04
Isaac that 250 g4 taht Twiztid is bidding on is 160, not 60. I have a question about that amp though. Would you trust it since the guy hasn't heard it running? There's only about 2 hours left, and I am almost positive I'm gonna try to get it. It looks like it's in great condition, but the fact that he doesn't know what the inside looks like, and hasn't had it hooked up makes me a little uneasy.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 227
Registered: Feb-05
Ok, WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT AMP IS BETTER, THE AUDIOBAHN OR THE KICKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm having a coniption fit!!!!!!!!
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1761
Registered: Nov-04
Well that's why it's going for $160. Normally that amp will sell over $300. According to the seller, the car was totalled, but that shouldn't damage anything inside. There is no moving parts like a fan on that model. Just a hard headsink.
If you outbid Twiztid, he'll get pi$$ed cause I did that to him on previous G4 amp. The funny thing was, I was busy bidding and didn't notice his name. I'm letting him/you have this one.
This morning, that amp was around $40 with 3 bidders.
 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 1466
Registered: Aug-04
Between the Audiobahn or the Kicker? The Kicker. I would still try to find a PPI A600.2 though.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 229
Registered: Feb-05
................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ .......................................b00bs.................................... ...........................................................................b00bs ...............................
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1762
Registered: Nov-04
For brand wise, Kicker is better, but for the money, you can't beat Audiobahn's $130-$150 price tag.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 230
Registered: Feb-05
But Joe, you said you hate Audiobahn, that's not unbiased help!
 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 1467
Registered: Aug-04
Well, that guy lives close to James actually, and he's talked to the guy about it. James says I should go 4 it, he was gonna bid on it too but he said he'd hold off for me. I guess I'm gonna go for it and pi$$ Twiztid off... I guess if worst came to worst I could spend the money to get it fixed.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 231
Registered: Feb-05
How about SOUNDWISE the A/B Audiobahn VS. D Kicker!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 3445
Registered: May-04
"Don't lose out on any more. I'm telling you, for your type of music, class D won't cut it. They're good for rap and crap with lot of booming bass."

Listen with your ears and not a spec sheet. You seem cocky enough to take the Richard Clark challenge, why don't you give it a shot, once you come back with empty pockets, then I can say I told you so. You can even compare a Zapco C2k against a Radio Shack special, and if you can tell a difference 100% of the time, then 10,000 bucks goes to you. Fair enough saying you seem to be able to tell the difference between your somewhat limited list of recommended amplifiers. It's funny how so called "golden eared" critics of amplifiers always praise an amplifier for it's specific sound quality, how tweeters seem to instantly sparkle and midranges seem so much more warm. And how supposedly inferior Class D amps are more boomy and nasty sounding. Then when you put them in a double blind test they fall flat on their face, and I guarantee you'll do the same. It's a psychological matter, thinking that thousand dollar amp actually made it sound a little better, when really all you're paying for is reliable power (and yes, I feel build quality does constitute the price). Whether it's Class D vs AB, Tube vs AB, AB vs A, and so forth and so on once things are leveled out and a fair comparison is made, you will tell absolutely no difference between amplifiers ( assuming power levels are the same) until you hit clipping levels or strain the power supplies. For sound quality, amplifiers are the LEAST important component in an audio system, as they should NOT contribute any sonic character to the music. The most important choice in an amplifier is quality, power, and the ability to deliver high current demands for transient peaks.

TB, I'd take the Kicker for build quality purposes. I've never been impressed with Audiobahns equipment.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 3446
Registered: May-04
"Jonathan, I have tested class D against class AB (PPI and Orion) and at high volume, I was able to tell a difference."
Exactly, proof. Clipping levels and/or straining the power supplies. All you'd have to do is get a more powerful amplifier/better Class D amp to alleviate that problem.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Minime80

Post Number: 63
Registered: Feb-05
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18796%26item%3D5757911053 %26%26

is $305 ok (with shipping)?
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1766
Registered: Nov-04
Yes you could buy better and more powerful class D amp but then at what price do you say it's not worth it? The purpose of this discussion was to tell/inform TB that there were better amps besides Kicker's class D, in performance and price wise.
I would rather buy PPI's Art series amp any day over Kicker's amps.
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1770
Registered: Nov-04
Nick Shoe, what is that link? It doesn't work for me.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 235
Registered: Feb-05
Nick, you sound like my dad when he gets on one of his home audio tangents, we had a similar conversation once, about speakers. Some people felt that because the speaker grill was a different color it sounded better, but blindfolded they couldn't tell the difference.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 236
Registered: Feb-05
Johnathan, you sound like my dad when he gets on one of his home audio tangents, we had a similar conversation once, about speakers. Some people felt that because the speaker grill was a different color it sounded better, but blindfolded they couldn't tell the difference.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 238
Registered: Feb-05
NICK, I accidently used your name instead of Johnathan.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Minime80

Post Number: 64
Registered: Feb-05
It's an a600.2, of course.
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1773
Registered: Nov-04
Nick Shoe, that is still a good price for 600.2 amp. You won't find any amp with that quality for $300.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 239
Registered: Feb-05
Here is my big question (prolly the deciding factor) which amp will last the longest, the Kicker or Audiobahn, considering being run at not higher than 1/2 gain. I'm looking at keeping the amp for AT LEAST 4 years before upgrading.
 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 1481
Registered: Aug-04
KICKER
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 240
Registered: Feb-05
Ok, then, the Kicker it is. Maybe I'll look into buying 2 of them, not sure yet.
 

Gold Member
Username: James1115

Wilton, Ct

Post Number: 1737
Registered: Dec-04
wow this is a funnty thread. I have had this discussion with Jonathan and Joe before and what jonatyhan is saying is that with the same amount of power you can not tell the difference but different amps(cheaper amps) will start to clip way before a (very good amp) will so thats where you end up paying. its only at high volumes where you can start to tell the difference. I have a PPI a600.2 and I know jonathan says dont waste it on subs but I have run multiple subs with this amp and it runs them clean and flawlessly. I have owned this amp for 9years and havnt had a peep out of it running 3-10's,1-12,and 2-15's which I have it running now 1-15. I recomend them all day long but the only downfall when running these amps on subs is that they are only stable at 4ohms mono 2ohms stereo. Hey TB out of the two you mentioned go with the Kicker not the Audiobahn. I would go with Isaac's recomendation though try to find an Orion or if you are gonna be running at 4ohms go with the PPI.
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1779
Registered: Nov-04
I am telling you, you will hear a difference between class d and ab cause most people buy D to listen at high volumes. At low volume level, sure they will both sound good. But as you increase the level, you will notice that class D will start sounding less clear, and start to clip. If you have a clip meter, you will be able to notice the change in SQ right away.
I have repeated the test over few times using same track, and what you lose out cause of class d clipping, isn't worth it.
The cheaper class d amps tend to have narrow bandwidth. Thus, clipping occurs faster. You'd be lucky if you could get 2/3 of the rated power from class d without clipping.
There's a reason why lot people with cheap D amps do not like listening to classical music. It exposes the weakness.
TB do not buy 2 Kicker amps. Not a wise investment.
I bet I could expose that Kicker amp's flaws with my setup. Too bad you can't hear it cause I am positive you would never buy it afterwards.
Again, the only expection is Zapco's C2K 9 model.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 241
Registered: Feb-05
So, even thought the Audiobahn is a cheaper amp, since it is class a/b, would it sound better than the Kicker? And would it still last a long time?
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1783
Registered: Nov-04
In general, Kicker is a better make. But since you're using it for a sub, I would rather spend half ($130) on A8000T than buy Kicker's class D at $280? There is no guarantee that Kicker will last longer than Audiobahn. I've used A8002T amp through bad weather and so far it's holding up. I remember starting the amp on one cold morning. It had frost all over the amp and still worked well. This doesn't mean Kicker won't do the same, just depends on your luck.
Most people starting off in car audio, tends to love class D amp. That's my observation. Heck I too was like that at the beginning. Then we all get sick of booming bass and go after higher SQ.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 3451
Registered: May-04
Yes at clipping levels you will hear a difference. At normal listening levels, you won't. That was my entire emphasis on this entire thread if you didn't notice. I never stated Class D was better for SQ than AB, I agree that AB is better. What I debated was your claim about AB amps making noticed huge significant differences in the sound quality of a subwoofer, when in reality you only noticed at clipping volume levels, and really I haven't heard any amp that sounds fantastic while it's clipping so it's a moot point, trying to point out the better of the bad. Remember that an AB amplifier will draw more current than a Class D amp, so if your alternator isn't sufficient, the AB will clip easier. Not everyone can afford an alternator upgrade, and others can't even find alternator upgrades because their cars are so small/rare/etc. It's about matching the horse to the course. There are competitors using Class D amps for mids, highs, and subwoofers, (Xtants to be exact, of course the C2K 9.0 counts too) and have won IASCA comps with them, so no it's not impossible and no it doesn't instantly kill your sound quality if you're intelligent enough to utilize such an amplifier, which obviously you're not because you fail to get good results. I am really questioning which Class D amps you've been testing to not be able to get 2/3 rated power without clipping. And no, not all of us are a bunch of immature kids trying to show off at a stoplight, so don't automatically assume my or anyone elses goals with a system.

"I bet I could expose that Kicker amp's flaws with my setup. Too bad you can't hear it cause I am positive you would never buy it afterwards."

Sure, if I was stupid enough to clip an amplifier, then consider it an amp flaw and not a user error (which it is), then I'd say that this amp is better than the other. That's the same mindset as saying that a Honda 4 cylinder doesn't perform worth a crap when you downshift it to first and it hit 10,000rpm, when it wasn't designed to operate at 10,000 rpm in the first place. I could really give a rats @ss less about your "setup" of 11 speakers in "proper phase" as you put it, and the 18" subwoofer. You're really wasting your time trying to tell me about sound quality, I can see straight through the image in my car, pointing out every instrument, vocalist, cymbal, and other subtleties in the music. And I'd bet your 11 speakers and sub are muddied up and emanate sound from more than the desired point source, without what I'd personally consider a razor sharp image (but maybe by your standards it is), but that's ok Mr. "My amps make all the difference". I'm more than capable of hearing an amplifiers flaws through my system if I'm dumb enough to clip the amps or push them close to their limits, but I care enough about the components I use to not send a clipped signal and DC voltage to a $1200 set of components, or to the ID Max I'm driving with the 1000/1 for that matter. And no, I don't swear by Class D, but the fact of the matter is you're being totally ignorant toward the importance of an amplifier in a system, if you spent half the time you did babbling on about the amplifiers you've tested on something more important such as actual driver location and placement, maybe you'd hit on something instead of trying to cram 11 speakers in a car and use phase/time correction to compensate for a lacking ability to create a realistic image through a proper installation. Amplifier topology has long surpassed the capabilities of the human ear, assuming such human is intelligent enough to set gain controls correctly and use his brain a little bit.

 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 1513
Registered: Aug-04
ouch.
 

Anonymous
 
Damn, Isaac, you just got BURNED!
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 242
Registered: Feb-05
Well too bad Isaac, because I was referring to the DUB series class a/b amp in comparison to the Kicker class D. DUB is 230, and Kicker is 270. Now give me the opinion on which would sound better.
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1816
Registered: Nov-04
Nah. Jonathan always love to use extreme examples to make his point. No big deal.
Just curious where do you get the idea/nerve to insult people? You seem to be holding in lot of anger inside. Why don't you take on a hobby like boxing?
As for being cocky, "compare a Zapco C2k against a Radio Shack special". You actually made that statement? Do you even have any idea what kind of equipments Radio Shack sells? You wire $10,000 to my bank account and I'll take that test. Zapco C2K 6.0 with Radio Shack crap.
Just cause I enjoy helping people on here for "free", no need to get jealous. I've read your posts, there's a hint of jealously. Instead of you insulting or taking cheap shots at people's mistake, be more constructive with "class". Don't be an a$$.

"I'd bet your 11 speakers and sub are muddied up and emanate sound from more than the desired point source", now who's assuming things and making up stories? I took my time to set them up carefully. When I listen to some songs, the imaging is so sharp, it feels like the stage is in front of me. I am sure you're the only "expert" in this world who can achieve imaging, but it's not a guarded trade secret. In fact it's not even that hard. Just takes time and careful setup.
Speaking of being extreme, your Honda example is way out of context.
"Honda 4 cylinder doesn't perform worth a crap when you downshift it to first and it hit 10,000rpm". Aren't you being a TAD ignorant? Where do you come up with such ideas?
I was stating how easily you can clip cheap class D amps cause of their narrow bandwidth. But you countered with "Remember that an AB amplifier will draw more current than a Class D amp, blah blah blah, the AB will clip easier". Here you're using very high powered class AB to support your lame argument. Why don't you do something right for a change and use "fair" comparison? Somehow, you make class D amp sound like a magical box that uses up very little current. It still uses up lot of power! Maybe not as much as AB but still does.
I have a question for you Jonathan, I don't see you HELPING out people much on here, except taking cheap shots at other's mistakes using your "extreme" biased examples. Just cause I push the amp to the limits and find faults, doesn't make me "stupid". Any "moron" can buy an expensive amp and slap on few expensive "$1200" components and BRAG about how perfect his imaging is. How does that help "average" users??
I have news for you, most people on here can't afford it. So stop with your "I'm so perfect" attitude and get off the high "horse".
You don't have to insult to make your point. We're all adults in here. I remember you stepping all over TB on one of your posts. If you haven't noticed, I replied back saying we should all be considerate. That post was really meant for you. Again, you didn't have to use " idiotic" and "horsesh*t". If you feel like being that rude, go pay a h00ker. I'm sure they'll really appreicate it. Heck if you paid them enough, they might like to hear about your "perfect" imaging that ONLY you can achieve.
Now stop bit$hing and help users out.
One more thing, you seem to LOVE wasting space with your lengthy posts on simple topics. Maybe you should've been a lawyer. They love hearing themselves talk in the mirror.
 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 1533
Registered: Aug-04
My god, this is getting good. I'm not gonna be a moron and take sides, but that was a pretty good comeback Isaac. I hate it when two people that know a $hit load argue. Who the hell are we supposed to believe?
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1820
Registered: Nov-04
Joe Smoe, let the examples speak for themselves. All the amps I tested and recommended I stand by. They are great.

 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 245
Registered: Feb-05
"Everyone" starts "arguing" and "ignores" my "questions", NOW "WHO" HAS "THE" RIGHT "TO" BE "NASTY"! lol....do we really need "all" the "quotes" "?" Hehehehe...imaging only HE can achive...h00ker like to hear about it...there is more than an audio meaning in that statement...how do you measure up...oh i kill myself at times!
 

TB is retarded
Unregistered guest
wtf are you talking about?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 3452
Registered: May-04
"As for being cocky, "compare a Zapco C2k against a Radio Shack special". You actually made that statement? Do you even have any idea what kind of equipments Radio Shack sells? You wire $10,000 to my bank account and I'll take that test. Zapco C2K 6.0 with Radio Shack crap."

It's a viable comparison and Clark DOES allow you to compare them. Like I said, if you have doubts, try it out. You don't need 10,000 starting out (or at all, really), you take a little money there and if you're game, you keep going. 10,000 is what YOU could take home if you can tell the difference.

"Instead of you insulting or taking cheap shots at people's mistake, be more constructive with "class""

I started this thread being civil. It's once you started with you Class D ends in boomy bass and it's only good for rap and other crap and all other misleading posts and the "EEW, it's a Class D!!!"s that were popping up all over the forum that I dumped the water bucket over the heads of those who needed it. There is no sense in giving people false hope as they don't all have the same priorities. Class D is typically cheaper per watt than AB does, since you're wanting to talk about the "average user", and it draws less current and is smaller. Both have their benefits and drawbacks that have to be weighed out by the user, not you.

"Here you're using very high powered class AB to support your lame argument. Why don't you do something right for a change and use "fair" comparison?"

Actually, I was talking about two amps for the same power output. AB is typically 50-60% efficient, while D is typically 80-90% efficient. May not seem like much, but to a small car with little reserve, it is night and day. You know that, it's far from a "lame argument".

"I don't see you HELPING out people much on here, except taking cheap shots at other's mistakes using your "extreme" biased examples"

I help regularly, and have for quite some time. Speaking of biased, I can count on two hands the number and types of amplifiers you recommend on every amplifier thread. And you croak everytime someone even considers a Class D amp.

"If you feel like being that rude, go pay a h00ker. I'm sure they'll really appreicate it. Heck if you paid them enough, they might like to hear about your "perfect" imaging that ONLY you can achieve."
See, now you're being stereotypical toward h00kers, you insensitive pr*ck. How dare you :-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Minime80

Post Number: 71
Registered: Feb-05
So, if a class D amp starts clipping sooner, and clips worse than a class AB I don't see the advantage if you can only use 50-60% of the D amp's efficiency anyway due to clipping.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fishy

Tamarac, FL USA

Post Number: 616
Registered: Sep-04
ummmm... back to the topic. Has anyone bothered to ask TB the impedance of his pair of wolfenhags? They need to either be 8 ohm or dual 4 ohm for him to get 600 watts out of that art series.

Oh btw my Xtant 1001dx(read class D) sounds incredibly sweet pushing 250 watts to a 10w0-4 in a stealth box in my Explorer. Not very loud but with a lil tweaking of the one band parametric EQ its gets some pretty decent extended bass response. It sounds a lot better than my PPI pro MOS-2050(high current a/b) @ 200 watts. Might be the EQ(and power) tho.

-Fishy
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 248
Registered: Feb-05
Wolfenhags lol...they are dual 4ohm. They claim to be competition subs, but I personally don't know.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 249
Registered: Feb-05
Yes, I am currently running the Wolfenstein series...good god people...
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1825
Registered: Nov-04
"I started this thread being civil". Oh yea how could I forget. If your ranting is being civil, then I'd hate to ask where you learned your manners.
I supported class AB, you decided to support D. Nothing wrong with that. But when you use "extreme" examples just to make your point, I had to respond. Not everyone has money to burn. Some of them are on a budget. So if they had $250 to spend on a good amp, I see NOTHING wrong with recommending PPI's Art series/PC/PCX/Orion's HCCA. And if you think your a$$ class D amp can out perform them then be my guest. Prove it. And please, don't take the best class D amp available in the market to win your argument.

"no sense in giving people
false hope". What planet are you from? I swear, you'd be better off being a lawyer. You seem to love ranting on and on about irrelevant detail.
And why do you drop part of my statements to make your point? I did say, if people were into booming bass, like rap which do contain 60hz-80hz drum beat, class D would work. But some high quality classical music contain much lower bass than 60hz. And in those cases, class AB DOES sound better. I'm sure you'll take my "quote" again and compare it with another one of your "extreme" examples but let me help you. Don't bother with low volume analogy. Listen to it at higher volume.
We can argue about this till the cows come home or actually spend the time helping others. I don't know about you, but I take pleasure in helping vs arguing about $tupid insignificant opinions.

"AB
is typically 50-60% efficient, while D is typically 80-90% efficient". Okay let's take your train of thought. AB amp with 60% efficiency, class D 80% efficiency. That's 20% difference. Hardly a number to fret over.
You mentioned about some people having cars that can not support HO alternators. Well if you took your time reading posts, I helped them out by advising them to send their "stock" alternator and have it redone. Lot of the shops that build HO alternators will and can do that. So instead of concentrating on negatives, open up your mind and offer better choices.

"I
can count on two hands the number and types of amplifiers you
recommend". Heck no, I can recommend at lot more, but don't have the time. Want me to list other great amps? Would that make you happy?
I list some of the best along with brands that work well under a low budget. I don't see you doing that besides bit$hing? Let me put you on the spot. Where were you when some of the users asked for an amp that was workable for $130? Oh wait, that's right, they weren't worthy of your time right?
Now quit being a "high" maintenance guy and stop this madness. Don't waste my time and yours, as well as others with lengthy arguments that really doesn't help anyone but your ego.

There's a reason why respect Glasswolf on here. Unlike you, he is knowledgeable AND respectful. If people make mistake, he corrects them politely with short precise points/facts without the use of "idiot,horse$hit,a$$" profanity. Last thing anyone needs is to read a novel to solve a "simple" problem.
I admit, you are as knowledgeable and smart as some people on here, but less use of profanity and insulting words would be greatly appreciated by many users. Don't intimidate them. People are allowed to make mistakes and learn.
Like I said before, we can keep on arguing like this and waste threads, or spend it helping. The choice is up to you.
I've no problem either way.
Now have a nice day :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1826
Registered: Nov-04
Wolfenstein? That is funny. Sounds German like.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 252
Registered: Feb-05
Volfenhag IS A GERMAN COMPANY! Just thought I would point out that a lot of European speakers are made very high quality. They are located in the US, but the company is German. That's why I don't think they are as bad as everyone says, just not well known enough.
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 253
Registered: Feb-05
We can't say stupid?
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 254
Registered: Feb-05
Do multi channel amps have classes? If so, I'll end the feud now. I will buy the DUB series for the subs, and the A8 series for the multi channel. For crying out loud lol.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 19
Registered: Mar-05
nothing against you isaac you seem to be knowledgable but I dont think too many ppl in here get subs and follow car audio to listen to classical on there system as a "usual" practice but whats you and jonathons' opinion on a jl500/1
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1847
Registered: Nov-04
JL 500/1 is a great amp. A bit costly but great. As for your comment, I don't listen to classical music in my car. I use it to test the system's sound reproduction.
As you know, JL isn't my first choice, not until they lower the prices a bit.

 

Bronze Member
Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 26
Registered: Mar-05
the best audio in my opinion to test audio accuracy is ottmar liebert try it out if you like to hear every sound
 

Bronze Member
Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 27
Registered: Mar-05
also whats in your setup isaac??
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdrummer

Post Number: 257
Registered: Feb-05
I've found that the one of the good bands to test audio with is Chevelle. They are crisp for metal, and have that type of bass that gets beneath your skin. I believe mid 20's to lower 30's in Hz. Great stuff.
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1849
Registered: Nov-04
My setup as in amps? I have 3 Orion HCCA G4 amps. 250G4 for front, 250G4 for rear, and 275G4 for the sub. That is my summer configuration. For winter, I have PPI 600.2, PPI 2300.2, and 275G4.
There's also a permanent Xtant 4 channel setup that runs DTS/Dolby Digital surrround sound. I switch between Stereo and surround.

Damn it, I just lost out on a Orion XTR 1400 bid. That amp is as good as G4, well pretty close.
If any one of you are looking for another great amp series, try Orion's XTR. Buy them before it disappears.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 3453
Registered: May-04
"There is nothing wrong with that Kicker amp. You won't notice huge significant differences between Class D and Class AB amplifiers for subwoofers. The Kicker is well designed and is a great amp for subs. I just don't see the point in wasting an Art series on subs (in which you really won't notice a huge difference) when you could use such a clean amp on mids and highs. A good Class D amp isn't boomy, unnatural, or nasty sounding, it's just speculation and the design that leads you to think so due to higher distortion numbers. In a double blind test you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference."

That's the statement I was referring to as being civil, and it seems pretty civil to me. I will admit that I still disagree with you about Class D amplifiers, as they are more than capable of handling 20hz tones and are more than capable of providing good sound quality for subwoofers. They do have a narrower bandwidth, but it is far from being limited to 60-80hz tones, a good D amp is limited to under 10khz, but 10khz isn't an issue with subwoofers. The limited bandwidth is due to the switching frequency of the output devices, which they switch above 20khz and thus a low pass filter is used. Yes, I prefer AB amps too, but as you saw above, he was having trouble finding the AB amp you mentioned at that time. Which I why I said the Kicker was just fine, and it is.

"TB you should listen and do what Nick did, get PPI. Heck of a lot better amp than Kicker's class d. The reason why I am telling you this is, cause I have tested both class D and class AB side by side. The clear winner is AB, but if all you're looking for is booming bass, then D will work.
Sooner or later, people get sick of that kind of bass and look for higher quality with AB."

That's the statement that started the entire debate. A statement that leads anyone reading to think that D amps are good for nothing but booming bass. That was my basis behind saying not to give anyone false hope, because the majority of the people on this forum aren't even going to notice the difference in an AB and D amp on a subwoofer and shouldn't be given the mindset that Class D sucks for sound quality.

"I did say, if people were into booming bass, like rap which do contain 60hz-80hz drum beat, class D would work. But some high quality classical music contain much lower bass than 60hz. And in those cases, class AB DOES sound better. I'm sure you'll take my "quote" again and compare it with another one of your "extreme" examples but let me help you"
I'm not going to come up with an extreme example, however I do encourage you to offer objective data about a Class D's apparent narrow bandwidth issues. They are not bandwidth optimized nor do they have issues with low bass, a D amp performs essentially the same as any transistor amplifier in the respect of low bass. Their distortion characteristics are similar as well, they have lower distortion at low frequencies than they do up higher. The only thing that would give it a huge boost in the "booming rap bass" region would be a remote bass boost control like you get with RF amplifiers. You have to consider what you're using as the constant in this comparison, a pair of speakers that are a reactive load in an enclosure that determines it's final impedance curve. Assuming both amplifiers were capable of delivering rated power to the subs, they are capable of driving the subwoofer beyond linearity at high volumes. Any minor difference in gain setting, preamp output, or simply driver impedance due to something as simple as heat in the voice coil will make results differ. Most speakers are rated thermally and not by the actual amount of power needed to drive it to full excursion in a certain enclosure, as certain enclosures determine the amount of power needed. Any difference in power output will give different results when comparing with the same driver. Subwoofers themselves give out huge amounts of distortion at high volumes and low frequencies, you're fortunate enough to find a subwoofer that provides a 10% THD at 20-30hz, and that's just from the driver. The JL W7 is praised for retaining a 11% THD rating at high volumes. I feel that in order to evaluate amps, you have to drop your preferences ahead of time, you're not trying to confirm preconceived notions, you're trying to hear the difference, and if it's in your head that you will hear a difference, then you will think that you did. That's why double blind tests are so effective, because people don't see what they're listening to.

"You mentioned about some people having cars that can not support HO alternators. Well if you took your time reading posts, I helped them out by advising them to send their "stock" alternator and have it redone. Lot of the shops that build HO alternators will and can do that. So instead of concentrating on negatives, open up your mind and offer better choices."

Actually, I do recommend alternator upgrades whenever possible, but there have been occurences on the forum where a cars alternator is so small that there is no room to rewind it to any beneficial amount. Not concentrating on negatives, but it does occur every once in a while and I've had to accomodate that scenario in the past.

Yes, I was way out of line last night. I drank too much at a friends house, and although that doesn't justify my actions by any means, I hope you'll accept my apology, and I especially apologize for getting personal. I hope we can look past this and continue on before this forum turns into a flame war.
 

Unregistered guest
Hey can you guys help me out. I have a JLW7 Sub with a 2 channel alpine amp hooked up in the back. My mids are only powered by my alpine headunit. I just recently recieved a free monoblock, its a JL Audio Monoblock amp and i was wondering if it was possible to use my 2 channel to power up all four of my mids and use the mono for my sub. And, can i bridge the 2 amps together like that?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Joe_c

Oakwood, Ga

Post Number: 37
Registered: Mar-05
that alpine should power mids at 2 ohms dep. on which amp. as for the sub I hope you got a 500/1 or higher to power that hungry thing
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 1851
Registered: Nov-04
Hey no problem. I already forgave you anyways with my last post. You have to remember, I'm here not cause I get paid, I'm here cause I enjoy helping and sharing knowledge and experience.
And I'll explain why I was pushing the amps I listed. Kicker's class D amps can be bought anytime, now, tomorrow, month from now, even next year. The Orion's HCCA G4/PPI's Art series/PC/PCX are all time limited items that WILL go away very shortly. Once it's sold out on eBay, it'll be very hard for anyone wishing to buy one.
That was my hidden adgenda. Allow people to get a chance to hear some of the great "old school" amps before they faded away.
So I hope you can understand why I adviced people to lean towards those amps.

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