Answer this...
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Silver Member Username: TdbdrummerPost Number: 535 Registered: Feb-05 | So, if I went out and bought a couple of Cerwin Vega's new Stroker Pro's, would my system be up to part with you JL/Kicker/Diamond/Eclipse/RF, and whatever other uber name brands are out there? |
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WC Unregistered guest | Listen bra, I see you like them volfang or however you spell that sh!t, and you are always talkin' about that they are good as JL or Kicker which is way wrong, what do those volfang subs cost, $70. INSTEAD of just looking around for alternatives to JL Kicker and RF and all the others, JUST BUY KICKER or JL ALREADY! Their good because their good. |
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Silver Member Username: TdbdrummerPost Number: 540 Registered: Feb-05 | Hey, Cerwin Vega's Stroker Pro is IMO just as high up as JL or Kicker. CV has always made power hungry beastly speakers with better than good SQ. I didn't say my Volfenhag's are better, note the part where I said I WANT TO REPLACE THEM... |
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Silver Member Username: Basshead86Ocala, FL USA Post Number: 517 Registered: Aug-05 | it would be very loud, but you could get just as loud with subs that cost a heck of a lot less, i believe their 12's retail for over a grand.  |
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Silver Member Username: QuickshotCharlotte, North Carolina U.S. Post Number: 157 Registered: Aug-05 | not very familiar with cerwin vega but their old strokers are supposed to be carzy for spl so the new ones should be around the same sh!t |
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WC Unregistered guest | As high as JL huh, then why not buy JL. Instead of asking all these questions on sh!ayot no one has really heard of. |
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Silver Member Username: TdbdrummerPost Number: 543 Registered: Feb-05 | Muddy, I think the point for the excess pricing is that you get the loudness + SQ. WC, you have some sort of chip on your shoulder. Most people with some sort of audio background have heard of Cerwin Vega. They've been around since the 80's I believe. They are what you would call and old school company when it comes to designs and beliefs. Power and SQ for a reasonable price, without the hidden lies of most audio gear today. And for 2500W RMS which I guarantee is not overrated, you should have to pay $500-800 IMO. Especially with the SQ they have at such high levels. |
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Bronze Member Username: John8x12Post Number: 74 Registered: Aug-05 | OMG! I saw a 15" Stroker today and it wasn't even Stroker Pro's. Friend is putting six of them in the back of a minivan. Going to run 6 CV 2,300 watt amps to them. I guarantee you it's going to hit hard. As someone else in these posts said, Strokers...if put in the right box...could crack the earth's crust. <^> JL |
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WC Unregistered guest | What would you say to this fatty, say a friend of your came up to you and sais something like this. "Hey man, check out this ride that I'm gonna buy, it looks like a escalade, but it isn't, and it costs a little less then an escalade." Something like that, what would you say? Here is what I would say after I b!tch slapped you, THEN BUY THE ESCALADE! See if you can get what I'm sayin. |
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Anonymous | poor saab |
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New member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-05 | Um, who are you calling fatty? Do you really think that is appropriate? When I said as high as JL I say that for one reason. I believe in companies with a long history. CV has been around for a longer time as an overall company than JL. They know what they are doing. Not saying JL doesn't but maybe we should crunch some numbers. JL and CV are both well respected companies with a history of giving true specs on their products. Here's what the JL's have too offer: Free Air Resonance (Fs): 27.2 Hz Electrical "Q" (Qes): 0.514 Mechanical "Q" (Qms): 7.807 Total Speaker "Q" (Qts): 0.482 Equivalent Compliance (Vas): 2.33 cu. ft. / 66.0 liters One-Way, Linear Excursion (Xmax)*: 1.15 in. / 29 mm Reference Efficiency (no): 0.249% Efficiency (1W/1m)**: 86.2 dB SPL Effective Piston Area (Sd): 84 sq. in. / 0.0542 sq. m. DC Resistance (Re): 2.47 ohm Nominal Impedance (Znom): 3 ohm Thermal Power Handling (Pt): 750W Driver Displacement: 0.14 cu. ft. / 4.0 liters Net Weight: 45 ibs. / 20.4 kg That is JL's 12Wv7 if I am correct, their best offered sub. Now, I'll give the specs of the Cerwin Vega Stroker Pro 12". Stroker PRO 12 Specifications Diameter: 12" No. of Voice Coils: 2 Power Handling: 2500 Wrms (cont. unclipped power (1250 Wrms per voice coil) per EIA RS-426B) Frequency Response: 40~200 Hz Voice Coil Diameter: 4.0" Total Weight: 63 lbs, (14.96 kg) Mounting Diameter: 13 1/8" (33.32 cm) Mounting Depth: 8" (20.32 cm) Stroker PRO 12 Thiele-Small Parameters 12 Free-Air Resonance: fs 27 Hz Total Q: Qts 0.62 Mechanical Q: Qms 8.87 Electrical Q: Qes 0.67 Comp.Vol.: Vas 1.8 ft3 Max. Excursion: Xmax 40 mm Voice Coil DC Resistance: Revc 2 x 1.75 Ohms Vol. Displace.: 276 in3 (0.16 ft3) Nominal Impedance: 2 x 2 Ohms Sensitivity: 84.0dB Now in all aspects except sensitivity I've glanced over the specs, CV beats the pants off the JL. So, a JL 12W7 goes for 600 on Froogle. And the Stroker Pro 12 goes for about $650. Now, I daresay that the CV looks much more appetizing to my wallet! And if you really wanna get powerful just check out the 15" Stroker Pro. That thing is a beast! I also guarantee that it will meet it's RMS power and have a MUCH longer life than the Kicker SoloX series will as well. But that's another story. Trust me, I know my companies, and if CV's car line is as awesome as their home line, JL doesn't stand a chance in Hades! Now, would you like to argue some more, or do I have to put you in your place again WC? And before you go grabbing you Kicker SoloX stats, remember the fact of lifespan, the SoloX may have it's 5000W RMS, but you have to consider the weak square spiders and corner weaknesses. It's kind of obvious that their whole "Solo-whatever" line is a rip off, they give you a replacement cone I believe if the one in there breaks, gee, that's an indicator to me that they are worhtless. Circular cones, are, and forever will be the winner in overall durability and power, that lasts! |
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New member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 3 Registered: Aug-05 | Before you all get confused, I'm TB, my other account got messed up lol. |
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Silver Member Username: Bnd_rulezPhoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 762 Registered: Mar-05 | I'm a big fan of Cerwin Vega. My first subs, and they still are going today. As far as the prices go JL is inflated, if you have the power to feed the Stroker Pro, get it. |
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Silver Member Username: Bnd_rulezPhoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 763 Registered: Mar-05 | Oh yeah, nice reply TB. |
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Bronze Member Username: John8x12Post Number: 90 Registered: Aug-05 | I'm thinking of getting for Stroker 15" powered by 4 CV 3,200 watt amps. Not Stroker Pro's. Just Strokers. Any guesses on how hard this will hit? Going in the back of a Ford Expedition. Ported box. |
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Bronze Member Username: John8x12Post Number: 91 Registered: Aug-05 | four (4) Stroker 15"'s ugh typo's. |
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New member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 6 Registered: Aug-05 | You realize that just ONE of those is capable of SPL's in excess of 120dB right? Also, where do they sell CV 3200W amps? I've never seen them on their site...Also, I don't know if 200W is enough to reach the RMS ratings of those subs. If you have that kind of money though, I envy that system and the fact I can't afford it ATM. Well, I also see that WC has nothing else to say either. If you want to stick with CV amps, try out their EXL 1000D amp. It puts out 1000W at 2 ohms. Not bad in my opinion. Sure, it has circuit limiters unlike JL, but I would believe there is a price to pay with that, and that is, the amp has to work twice as hard to do that kind of wattage at all impedances. Anyways, 4 Strokers, well that might kill someone to be honest. I'm not sure what a max bass SPL would be for just one, but if you find out what it is, add 3dB for each sub you have over one. In other words, say the Stroker maxes at 140dB, this is just a guess, but that means for each doubling in power, you get a 3dB gain. So you'll have 149dB. And if you port, well expect I dunno...a 24dB increase from that lol. A ported speaker has a 6dB increase of that which is sealed! You may just kill someone at that rate. Just make sure your car can take that, and that you buy a more powerful amp. 1000W from the EXL 1000D is probably a little underated, and I'm not sure if they are set up for bi-amping, so YOU MAY WANT TO LOOK INTO SOMETHING MORE POWERFUL! Check out the JBL GTi Series A6000GTi. It does 7500W RMS at 14.4V, and I believe most batteries/H/O alternators run that. http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/learningcenter/car/subwoofers_wiring.html?subs =4&impedance=DVC2x2 Follow that wiring guide, because I believe that the JBL GTi Series A6000GTi amp is suitable down to 1 ohm. Lemme know how it turns out, later. |
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Bronze Member Username: John8x12Post Number: 95 Registered: Aug-05 | The setup I have now is hitting 150 db's in a sealed box. My goal is to hit 156 db's and break Oklahoma's record in my class. (USACi modified 1,801 and up). I thought about just keeping the setup I have now and building a ported box to see if that would break the record. Then a friend started setting up his system for next year. He is putting 4 Stroker 15"'s in a minivan. He's the one that said Cerwin-Vega has a 3200W amp. I haven't seen it either. But he already has the 4 Stroker's and he says the amps are ordered. He's going to be in the same class as me at competitions, so just making a ported box for my setup now will not work. So I figured I'd do the exact same set up as him. His is going in a minivan. Mine is going in an Expedition. I believe my vehicle's interior space is smaller than his which would make mine hit louder. Plus, I have the advantage of sitting on my system until he is done with his, and if his doesn't sound right then I haven't lost any money. I just don't see how it will not sound right. I'll check out JBL. My only problem with that is the $$$. I'm not uber-rich. And I was told the CV amps run $800 a piece. If they do put out the 3200W then that would be my best bet. I was also looking at US Amps. Anyway, thanks for the advice! It is always welcome. |
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Bronze Member Username: John8x12Post Number: 96 Registered: Aug-05 | Oh, and I said eariler in this thread that friend was putting 6 Stroker's in his ride. That wouldn't fit. He's now doing the four. |
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Bronze Member Username: John8x12Post Number: 97 Registered: Aug-05 | TB, I do have a question. Your example, you are adding 6 db per speaker that is ported. (24 db's). Right now I have 8 Infinity Kappa Perfect 12"'s. Each are individually sealed. That's the system I was going to build the ported box for. Obviously porting it I can't do the 6 db's per sub (8x6= 48 db's). In your opinion, how many db's would it add? Plus I'm just running two 1,500W amps to them. That could easily be doubled. |
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New member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 8 Registered: Aug-05 | Well in that case, I'm going to have to check with my Dad. He's an audio genius lol. He's the one who told me about the 6dB increase a speaker gains from being ported. So, no, I think that the 48dB is out of the question, as you would be getting closer to a nuclear testing facility's launch pad, I'll check and get you a better answer later, there's probably something ELSE he said that I forgot. Lol, I've gotta get a better short term memory, or start committing things to long term. Also, as a final note, don't take offense to this, buy Infinity since they've started becoming a mass marketing company, has really become garbage. I know, I really don't have much room to talk, since I use Volfenhag, but that's just my lack of funding at the time being, if I could, I would gladly go buy a Stroker Pro! But companies like Infinity, Polk, Pioneer, and so on, have gone down the tubes since the 80's. JBL, although they've dropped in quality a little, still ranks up there with CV IMO. You use a sealed box? Although you lose efficiency, sealed has awesome SQ. I don't think my Volf's would sound as good as they do if they were ported. But if it's SPL you're after definitely go ported, the Stroker's should have an SQ of their own anyways for being a top o' the line product. Of course, others would argue this with their JL theories, but hey, everyone's entitled to an opinion, and I'm entitled to getting what I pay for lol...or at least when I have the money lol! (Where's X-Mas when you need it?) However, I'll have a solid answer later, and I have a feeling it's going to have something to do with the amount of ports/length of ports which allows for greater efficiency. Also, what is the impedance each of your amps is receiving? I'm gonna play it safe and guess 2 ohms. If that's 1500W RMS, that's giving you 375W RMS per speaker, just 25W RMS over the 350W RMS of the Infinity's if I am thinking of the right ones. Just as long as those are not overrated amps, and aren't clipping by the time they reach that level, it SHOULD be fine. However, my friend just had to replace his Infinity setup, as a 350W RMS X 2 Kicker amp, which seems to be very nice running, literally blew the cones off of the Infinity's lol. So upgrading might not be a bad idea. One last thing, the only problem I see with 15" subs is that they are a little bit "sloppier" than 12's would be when it comes to accurate bass. If you're doing SPL, make sure to use something that doesn't have pressing bass, like metal with double bass pedal beats at 32nd note speed lol. At lower volume levels though, 12's VS. 15's are almost identical in accuracy. Are your SPL competitions strictly SPL, or is any SQ involved, as that may change the whole outlook. By the way, CV makes a 320W AMP! I think your friend has it confused. If he wants real CV power, look at the EXL 1000D |
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WC Unregistered guest | Here's the deal boy, you said if you buy Cerwin Vega because you wanted to be up there with the gold members because they have that stuff. YOU want to be like these JL Kicker owners, well the only way to be like them is to BUY THE STUFF THEY LIKE OR HAVE. Plus, you gonna listen to all these "new" and "bronze" members? |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 11 Registered: Aug-05 | Whoa now, just because you're a gold member doesn't mean you have the best gear, it means you talk a lot. Haha, wow, you're as bad as a racist, as you think because someone is new to a forum that they aren't as intelligent or knowledgeable as a "gold" member who just posts a lot. My old account was a silver member, does that mean that there aren't bronze and new members out there that aren't more knowledgeable than me? No. You're an idiot WC, and that's all there is to it. You can't even acknowledge that I proved you wrong up there with the CV Vs. JL comparison. Maybe, the real thing is that CV is a better brand! I know it's better than Kicker, and fine, if you wanna own JL, I won't hold it against you, but I think I know a quality company when I see one. And as I showed, CV costs more than JL. Like Muddy said, they 15" Stroker Pro retails at $1000+. A JL 13W7 retails at a very similar price, but guess what, it doesn't meet the specs that CV does! |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 12 Registered: Aug-05 | John, Ok then...It takes 50% more power to achieve a 3 dB increase, and a 10 decibel increase is what is perceived as a doubling in sound level. So, you have 8 Infinity's now that hit 150dB. What you need to find out, is the max SPL of a Stroker and we'll work the math from there! And I'll find out hopefully, exactly how the porting works. |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 14 Registered: Aug-05 | Ok, John, I asked my Dad, and he says that...well, even if you port all 8 subs, you still only get a 6dB increase. Kind of a bummer huh? Sorry about that man, I knew there was a catch, but I wasn't sure what. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4446 Registered: May-04 | "Now in all aspects except sensitivity I've glanced over the specs, CV beats the pants off the JL....Trust me, I know my companies, and if CV's car line is as awesome as their home line, JL doesn't stand a chance in Hades!" In what aspect? Theile-Small parameters. I'm going to do this once, and save it for future reference. I'm going to lay out all COMMON Thiele-Small parameters, define what they mean, and what they effect. The reason I'm doing this is so that people will realize that there are more specs out there than just power handling, SPL, and Xmax. Fs: Resonant Frequency of the driver. This indicates the frequency that the driver resonates at in a free air (infinite baffle) application. It is determined by the drivers cone mass and the tightness/looseness of the suspension. The higher the Fs, the tighter the suspension and/or the lighter the cone. Low Fs numbers mean a heavy cone or a loose suspension. Q factors: I know some will wonder what is a "Q" factor. Q stands for quality of resonance (did you know the Q in Q-tips also stands for quality?  ) It is simply used to describe the driver's damping (lossiness), and is derived from the sustain time, which is the ratio of stored energy to dissipated energy. Basically, how long the cone will flutter at the resonant frequency. High Q numbers mean an underdamped driver and low Q numbers mean an overdamped driver. You can consider Q factors as the tendency to resonate at Fs. Qms: The mechanical Q of the driver. It gives you an idea of the suspensions damping characteristics, in relation the driver's moving mass, suspension compliance, and suspension loss (damping). High Qms indicates a heavy assembly (cone, voice coil, etc) and/or a loose suspension. Opposite for a low Qms. Qes: Electrical Q of the driver, defines how strong the motor is and how well the motor can push against its suspension and its mass. A low Qes means either the driver has a low moving mass, a really high motor force factor, or a really loose suspension. A high Qes driver indicates the opposite. Qts: Overall Q, determined from Qms and Qes combined. It is the ratio of stored-to-dissipated energy for the entire driver, and tends to be dominated by Qes. A low Qts means a light moving mass, loose suspension, or strong motor strength. High Qts means a weak motor, a high moving mass, or a tight suspension. This is very important in enclosure consideration. Vas: looseness of the suspension, scaled to the driver's cone size. Large Vas = loose suspension. SPL: Driver efficiency. Determined solely by BL and Mms. X-max: The linear excursion of a speaker. Usually determined by the voice coil overhang in relation to the height of the top plate. Can be a misleading spec as it gives no clue to the motor strength or linearity at maximum excursion. A dumax verification is a better method. Mms - moving mass. Weight of the voice coil, former, cone, dustcap, half the surround, half the spider, tinsel leads. Cms - compliance of the suspension. Typically in mm/N - millimeters per Newton, basically, the suspension will sag "x" amount of millimeters per Newton of force applied. The suspension is the spider and surround. Rms - suspension loss. Measure of how fast energy in the suspension is dissipated internally. Sd - surface area of the cone. Typically measured as the area of the cone, and the inner half of the surround. Le - inductance of the voice coil (typically measured in mH, milliHenries, and spec'd at 1 kHz). Inductance is energy storage in the magnetic field, and this is a measure of the energy storage in the field of the voice coil (it is an inductor - a coil of wire). BL - motor force factor (typically measured in N/A - Newtons per Ampere - or Tm - Tesla meters; I prefer N/A because it's more descriptive. Put in X amperes of current, get Y Newtons of force out). This is a measure of the amount of force the motor can generate for a given applied current. Now that we take these into account, we can determine the following: The CV Stroker Pro has a relatively low motor strength (in relation to the mass of the speaker), a high moving mass, a moderately stiff suspension, and the Qts leads it to want an extremely large sealed box (over 6 cu ft for your 12" subwoofer). The driver is inefficient and very peaky in whatever enclosure you choose due to the suspension design. Thus, it is a clear indicator that this is a pure SPL subwoofer designed for 5 figure wattage burps in high tuned ported boxes, it is NOT a daily driver subwoofer, nor was the original Stroker. The suspension leads the driver to be extremely peaky in an SPL ported enclosure, which is a good thing for SPL, a horrible thing for music listening. The driver has excellent power handling, and needs all it can get. The JL W7 has a medium Qts well suited for an average size sealed box, and ported enclosures as well. It has a looser suspension than the Stroker does, a lighter mass, and the motor controls it well. It is reasonably efficient and has a good, clean stroke. It is indicative that this subwoofer is designed to provide good sound quality at high volume levels. It is NOT an SPL subwoofer, doesn't handle insane levels of power, nor does it lend itself to work well in peaky SPL enclosures. It is a driver designed for SQL. You're comparing apples to oranges. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4447 Registered: May-04 | "It takes 50% more power to achieve a 3 dB increase, and a 10 decibel increase is what is perceived as a doubling in sound level." Takes twice the power for 3db, 10x the power for 10db. |
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WC Unregistered guest | Finally a gold member, hey Tyler you say "Whoa now, just because you're a gold member doesn't mean you have the best gear, it means you talk a lot." Which is sort of right I guess, I see that gold members dont ask questions, THEY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS OTHER PEOPLE ASK. The stupid question and all in between(not saying I dont ask stupid questions). Here, so you dont have to ask all these questions Just buy JL already. |
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WC Unregistered guest | Reasons they answer instead of ask, BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. And most of them do have the best gear. |
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Silver Member Username: HurleyblinkPost Number: 172 Registered: Mar-05 | lol i remember TB telling me my kicker cvr 12's were crap compared to his volfenhags, and he talked like they were all great look at him now, thats just funny. basically compared to yer volfenhags the strokers would be 1 million times better. |
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New member Username: Scott7Post Number: 1 Registered: Aug-05 | i have 2 alpine swr 1042d with a phoenix gold octane r 8:1 mono block amp. how should i wire this up. |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 19 Registered: Aug-05 | Jonathan, "Thus, it is a clear indicator that this is a pure SPL subwoofer designed for 5 figure wattage burps in high tuned ported boxes, it is NOT a daily driver subwoofer, nor was the original Stroker." It's only 2500W RMS, that's four numbers. I have to ask then, why are there idiots who then put more than 2 JL W7's of whatever size they want, in a car, and then go enter SPL competitons? So you're also saying, that if I bought a Stroker Pro, that if I wanted to listen to say something by 50 Cent, since Rap has the bass that is easily heard loudly, that it will be the most God-Awful sound I've ever heard? What do you mean by "peaky?" And how is it inefficient? And no, to continue, ONE Stroker Pro alone, would not be enough for 5 figure wattage "burps." But have you ever even seen sub that actually can do that alone? Even Kicker's SoloX 18 has it's limits at 5000W RMS! It wouldn't even be wise to have a speaker designed like that. More speakers = greater cone area = greater efficiency = greater power output = better SQ than a massive driver anyways. I really wouldn't buy a Stroker Pro, or even a regular Stroker! I would stick with the V-Max series, or even the HED. They are both underrated speakers that put out more than they are rated at; similar to Kicker in that aspect, but without the inflation of JL. People probably look at CV too, and see that their subs are lower priced than JL, Kicker, and even RF, and say "Wow, not a very good company." Well, that's not it, when you've been in the business as long as them, and have had high customer satisfaction, you can lower prices for consumers. JL and Kicker are still in the early stages compared to CV, and are forced to jack up prices! One of these days though, if JL keeps its quality that it pushes around like a fat woman going down a tiny aisle in a small wedding chapel, then sure, I would hope they wouldn't be greedy gluttons, and would lower their prices as well. And personally, I don't see the whole Kicker fad lasting much longer, especially since they only offer one line of decent, durable speakers, the Comp/Comp VR line. And since we're on the subject of subs (how convenient) could anyone tell me how a couple of CV V-Max 12's would compare to a couple of Alpine Type R 12's? Either the old or the newer Type R model. I've looked at Alpine Type R's, and even heard the old model at CC once, and surprisingly it sounded good! I think I have a feeling though that the CV's would still be a better choice though. |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 20 Registered: Aug-05 | And Shawn, I never said your Kickers were crap, you just wanted to say that after you thought Jonathan "wiped me clean" with his explanation, so that you could be put on some pedestal of greatness, or whatever your ego thought it would get out of it. Instead of trying to seize the moment and criticize others, maybe you should sit back and listen once in a while. After reading Jonathan's informative (yet slightly long lol) post, it cleared things up a bit, but I still have a right to my opinion, in that I don't think JL is necessarily better than CV, and that my Volfenhags don't suck. It's my opinion, and sure, I plan on upgrading next summer, but I'm completely content with what I have right now, and had you gone out and bought Volfenhags, and you had been in the same situation as me, I'm sure you wouldn't want people bashing your choice. |
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Anonymous | "why are there idiots who then put more than 2 JL W7's of whatever size they want, in a car, and then go enter SPL competitons" The W7's just so happen to be a "SQL" sub. Not a SPL designed Sub like Jonathan explained. Let alone TWO W7's. I guess that explains why you cant compare SQL and SPL Subs. Oh wait, look what Jonathan said: " You're comparing apples to oranges" |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 22 Registered: Aug-05 | Yes, but I've read on here from time to time about the amazing SPL's they reach, and how people here have won awards with their SPL's, why is that then? |
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Silver Member Username: Basshead86Ocala, FL USA Post Number: 589 Registered: Aug-05 | time and place, maybe no one competing had anything better, or other varibles like they might have had a sufficient charging system. and i believe the stroker pro's 12" retails for around $1200 and the 15" for around $1600, but i can get back to you on that one. |
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Silver Member Username: Basshead86Ocala, FL USA Post Number: 590 Registered: Aug-05 | i said loud for less, b/c i knew they were SPL subs, and you can get other SPL subs for less. i wasn't trying crap on your point. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4456 Registered: May-04 | " I have to ask then, why are there idiots who then put more than 2 JL W7's of whatever size they want, in a car, and then go enter SPL competitons?" Because of the power class. When you can't use but "x" level of power, the W7 may be a better choice due to efficiency. There are also other limits upon enclosure and such in different classes. In a no holds barred competition, they don't stand a chance. "So you're also saying, that if I bought a Stroker Pro, that if I wanted to listen to say something by 50 Cent, since Rap has the bass that is easily heard loudly, that it will be the most God-Awful sound I've ever heard? What do you mean by "peaky?" And how is it inefficient?" It would be pretty close. The Stroker's suspension is very tight, too tight for regular enclosures. The reason they do this is so that in an SPL ported or small sealed enclosure, the sub will provide a very narrow bandwidth. There will be little bandwidth, but at the tuned frequency, there will be a large spike in SPL, making it good for burps. "And no, to continue, ONE Stroker Pro alone, would not be enough for 5 figure wattage "burps." But have you ever even seen sub that actually can do that alone? Even Kicker's SoloX 18 has it's limits at 5000W RMS! It wouldn't even be wise to have a speaker designed like that." RMS ratings don't apply in SPL comps. At tuning in a ported box, the excursion is severely limited by the action of the port. This means you can continue packing power onto the sub without stressing it's mechanical limits, boosting SPL higher and higher until the limit is reached. Notice I didn't say thermal. That's why it's a burp, a short burst of enormous power output. The voice coils are rated to take x amount of power continuously, but it is like a fuse, it can take a short burst of huge power. That's why SPL subs see 10,000+ watts at competition. Keep in mind, in all this I'm NOT putting down Cerwin Vega in any way, they make excellent subwoofers for their intended application. But the Stroker is not and won't ever be a SQ subwoofer. "They are both underrated speakers that put out more than they are rated at; similar to Kicker in that aspect, but without the inflation of JL. People probably look at CV too, and see that their subs are lower priced than JL, Kicker, and even RF, and say "Wow, not a very good company." Well, that's not it, when you've been in the business as long as them, and have had high customer satisfaction, you can lower prices for consumers. JL and Kicker are still in the early stages compared to CV, and are forced to jack up prices!" Actually, when JL started value was their selling point. Similar to Adire Audio, the prices gradually increase as quality becomes known. JL isn't exactly a rookie, they've been around since the 80s, remember this is car audio that we're talking about, which is a hobby that didn't really become popular until the 80s. They raised prices because they could. While Cerwin Vega is a good company, I wouldn't attribute that to the amount of time they've been producing speakers. Sony has offered stuff since the 50s, too. |
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Silver Member Username: John8x12Post Number: 102 Registered: Aug-05 | OK. I'm lost. WC, are you a kid? First off, it doesn't matter if you are a gold, silver, or bronze member. All that means is that you post a lot. Most of the experts in car audio have never posted in this forum. I've been doing car stereos since 1992. 13 years. And I'm only a bronze member. Are you trying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about? Second, we are comparing apples to oranges. I'm talking pure SPL. If I wanted SQ, I would just keep my Perfect 12's and save a lot of money. For SPL, Stroker dominates. Are they better than JL? Let me get back with you after World Finals '06. But heck, give me enough room and money and I bet I could win competitions with Xplods. And just because a person has SQ subs does NOT mean they can't compete and win in SPL competitions. I'm proof of that. The pic at bottom is a 3x point event that my SQ subs took first in a SPL event. Oh, and with a sealed box. But again, it is comparing apples to oranges in what I was looking for. Stroker prices. Stroker 12" $500. Stroker 15" $700. Stroker Pro 12" $800 Stroker Pro 15" $960. Now MuddyWaters did say retail. He is correct on the retail prices...if someone is stupid enough to pay retail. I'm sure if you look hard enough then you could beat the prices I have listed. Anyway, props out to the gold members. You guys are a big help. However, that does not make you better than some bronze members. And I have never heard any gold member state that.  |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 23 Registered: Aug-05 | John, how many lbs. of Dynamat/Brown Bread did you use lol? I know that truck of yours has to be heard from a mile away lol. Can you still hear out of both ears as well? Actually, your sealed box is similar to mine in depth, just not length and width obviously, since I use only 2 subs lol. I'll include a picture of my setup though, don't laugh, I'm only in high school, and my school class and after school activities doesn't allow for such things as a job, although next summer I should have one!     |
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Anonymous | theres a lot of ppl that are missing the quality that size of a box puts out and usually the rule on cheaps subs is: if you dont blow one within a month take care of them and be happy you picked a winner often times you see cheap subs in a bandpass box because the subs cant take the extra heat and extra power from a sealed box.. especially with a trunk thats 100 degrees + |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 25 Registered: Aug-05 | Well, I haven't blown them lol. They must be SOMEWHAT decent then. I've had them since early Spring, and what can I say, I run them hard sometimes...Usually about 1-2 times a week I'll make 'em move some air. Usually though, I just like full sound that door speakers don't provice. Also, at high volumes, these subs don't sound bad at all. Really, I don't think my amp can keep up with my subs. Can someone tell me how to set my LPF (I know how to turn it on, on the amp, but how do I adjust it's knob?), my Subsonic Filter (It also has a know, how to set?), and my Phase shift? I also took advice that I read on here before, and left the bass boost at minimum, and the SQ increased dramatically. And what good is a HPF on a mono sub amp? Who wants bass that high? I have a feeling that if I bought a more powerful amp, (one that allows for 500W RMS+) as well as a better name brand amp, they would sound even better. Either way, the addition of my new HU added to the overall SQ as well. Would it be wise to add an amp for my door speakers? They are 175W RMS I believe, any suggestions? |
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Silver Member Username: Basshead86Ocala, FL USA Post Number: 594 Registered: Aug-05 | yes, it would dramatically increse the sound and SQ coming from your door speakers. try to find a 300w rms stereo amp |
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Silver Member Username: Basshead86Ocala, FL USA Post Number: 595 Registered: Aug-05 | what kind of speakers are in your doors, and are they coaxials, or components? |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 26 Registered: Aug-05 | They too are Volfenhags, and I must say, they sound pretty decent as is. They are Co-axial 5x7's. I know what people say, "Co-axials can't handle the power they say, especially ovular shaped ones!" But I think they are thirsting for more power regardless of that. My HU doesn't start clipping until Vol. 30 when Loudness is ON, and at like 33-35 depending on music with Loudness OFF. |
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Silver Member Username: John8x12Post Number: 103 Registered: Aug-05 | Tyler, your setup looks pretty clean. Wish my first system looked that good when I was in high school. I had a 79 Z-28 and I had wires everywhere. I lost the car when it went up in flames due to an electrical short under the dashboard. I still say that wasn't my fault. I still have a lot of dynamat to go. The vehicle is my every day driving vehicle, and I didn't plan on competing with it. But I grew tired of seeing only clunker cars competing. It's like people spend $500 on a car and then $5,000 on a system to go in it. I figure with both a nice car and a nice system the chances of me going home with one of the event models increases by about 1/2 a percent! |
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Silver Member Username: John8x12Post Number: 104 Registered: Aug-05 | Oh, and as far as an amp for your 5x7's, I'd wait unless you plan on keeping the speakers for a long time. Just my opinion anyway. Oh, and you asked if I could still hear? Why do you think I'm typing on the computer instead of talking to people? lol |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 30 Registered: Aug-05 | Well, I don't plan on doing any customization that involves components, unless I go with the CV Unifited components that work like co-axials, but you get the power/sq out of them that is liked. |
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DUB Unregistered guest | The only way you can be with tha JL/Kicker/Diamond/Eclipse/RF owners it to ACTUALLY OWN JL/Kicker/Diamond/Eclipse/RF! There might be something really close to those, but they are still no JL/Kicker/Diamond/Eclipse/RF. |
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Silver Member Username: John8x12Post Number: 105 Registered: Aug-05 | This debate could go on forever like Ford vs. Chevy. |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 32 Registered: Aug-05 | Well of course, they wouldn't be those names listed. But I'm sure there are brands out there better than JL. And the reason they can't all be the same, well, they'd all be the same company, that's not my point. My point is that there has to be something of equal QUALITY! |
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WC Unregistered guest | Well sounds like your just EAGER to be like the big dogs, thats why I say just buy JL or Kicker already! There might be something close to the quality of them, but I doubt it. |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 34 Registered: Aug-05 | Well, I'm pretty much excluding Kicker from ANY future purposes, come on, they have only two lines of reliable subs, and some good amps. Not a good ratio IMO. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4474 Registered: May-04 | Kicker and quality aren't exactly hand in hand like they used to be. As far as amplifiers and the Comp VR, sure quality is there. Everything else is mediocre in quality. As far as quality, it's hard to match JL, but there are those that do it and do it well. But you'll pay equally. |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 3961 Registered: Nov-04 | I hope Kicker won't become another Hifonics. We really don't need any more 2000w rms amps for $300. Sony and Pyramid has those markets cornered. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 4475 Registered: May-04 | "I hope Kicker won't become another Hifonics. We really don't need any more 2000w rms amps for $300. Sony and Pyramid has those markets cornered." Yeah, it's like watching Overhaulin and seeing all these classic cars end up with Kicker L7s in the trunk, back seat, all over the place. Then Eclipse decides to supply a full system and they plop it into a 95 Civic econobox. Figures. |
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Silver Member Username: Riebread77Post Number: 567 Registered: Jun-05 | i hope the technology just becomes that good in the future that cheap amps still produce good sound...or that mass production is that efficient that cost is driven down...its almost like people here are begging to spend more money... |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 35 Registered: Aug-05 | Maybe Eclipse isn't as well known as Kicker? I had never heard of it before this forum, but definitely had heard of Kicker. |
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WC Unregistered guest | Plus, why would you buy something that has ALOMOST the same quality as JL, and have to same price as JL? Thats where the escalade story came from. Just buy JL. |
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Bronze Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 40 Registered: Aug-05 | Ok, I just had my friend over who has the Kicker's and I had a third party (another friend) listen to both sets of subs. My friend's got louder (they're ported), but both of my friends agreed that my subs got really loud, hit low notes accurately, and sounded really good, but we all agreed the Kicker's sounded plenty good themselves, so what does this mean? I had three opinions, mine, and both of my friend's. We tested them with the same rap song. |
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