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Power cords

 

simon clarke
do thay make a difference?? yes, & how much do thay cost? i have new tci constrictor which takes 150 hours to burn in, the cable i have is 89.99 & the min you want to pay it runs the new arcam cd 72 it adds so much you, can never go back.
 

Unregistered guest
I think this is something like a miracle purchase. It's the little things in life.
 

Unregistered guest
I think this is something like a miracle purchase. It's the little things in life.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 11
Registered: Feb-05
NO. They do not make a difference. Cables or powercords do not need a "burn-in" period. This is a scam. Avoid it and save your money for things that matter such as equipment or speakers. E. Ramsey AAS industrial electronics
 

Silver Member
Username: Uback007

Post Number: 144
Registered: Mar-06
Eric..are you saying that all power cables do not make a difference or that the burn-in is a scam?
 

Silver Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 516
Registered: Feb-05
This thread is ancient Uback where have ya been???! I think that lowering the impedence(very marginally) in an AC circuit certainly won't be harmful and could be beneficial but I don't think it will make an audible difference in nearly all but the highest end systems out there,and even then the difference will be very subtle at best, As far as burn in goes let's not get started, these arguments grow weary these days,believe what you want, I do suggest however, that you a little research yourself and you will find that science is able to prove that burn-in as well as many other "mysticisms" about cables are unfounded. Buy well shielded cables to prevent interference, that's what you need to be concerned with in a cable.
 

Silver Member
Username: Uback007

Post Number: 147
Registered: Mar-06
okay. can you recommend a good bang for the buck power cable to upgrade to?
Yes, I just saw that there was a "power conditioning" section in the forum and because I am in the market for cables, it's the first place I came.
Please help! :-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Leonski

Post Number: 96
Registered: Jan-07
Real, honest to goodness DOUBLE BLIND testing is the way to evaluate this stuff.
No amount of science will ever convince most of the people who think they have THE golden ear, that at least for speaker and power cables of good fundamental design and execution, there are nearly NO measureable differences that you can hear.

I repeat:: DOUBLE BLIND TESTING ::
 

New member
Username: Vikram1248

PuneUnited States

Post Number: 1
Registered: Apr-10
Eric what i feel from my past experience is that the power cable really make changes,almost every Cables or powercords has a "burn-in" period,it depends on brand to brand how godd they are inmanufacturing these cables.
___________________________
Furnace Filter
 

Silver Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 612
Registered: Feb-05
Vikram: I am willing to concede that it might on some high end equipment, but for most mid and low end equipment I have serious doubts.The only advantage would be lowering the resistance from the AC outlet to the power supply inside the equipment which could make delivery more efficient possibly,although negligible.Since a metallic bond is one of the strongest in nature, metal atoms do not rearrange themselves in any way as this theory purposes. "Burn in" in cables/powercords is a pseudo-science that has no real underlying chemical,electrical/physics principles.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 2388
Registered: May-06
Is it an alignment or your ears becoming familiar with the sound therefore finding it more accommodating?

I understand the value of freezing cables in terms of molecular alignment so that to me is not as arguable.

I line up on the side of burn in as the immediate differences in the new power cord or cable are often negative at first then there is a boost in improvement in the next couple of days followed over the next two weeks to two months with a subtle rise in performance. YMMV
 

Silver Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 613
Registered: Feb-05
The cryogenic process has certain advantages in the processes of metallurgy. In certain high stress applications such a gun barrels and reciprocating machine parts as well as structual engineering functions certain advantages have become apparent. Whether this advantage gained by this process on such simple mechanical devices such as powercords and interconnect cables,which aren't reciprocating and certainly aren't under stress is largely undetermined. While it is possible for a select few to hear a cable that's been "burned in" connected to some equipment in a few circumstances, the vast majority of listeners won't indentify a change under the scrutiny of ABX testing.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1134
Registered: Oct-07
Eric,
While I stand by my much earlier post on this subject, metals do move or 'migrate' under the influence of the flow of electricity.

At least, in semiconductor design, you take into consideration a little phenom called electro migration. In circuitry with high current density it can shorten product lifetime. Any constriction in a wire will produce such a higher current density condition and over a few centuries, for a power cord, lead to failure.
 

Silver Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 614
Registered: Feb-05
Leo: I work with electricity every day. The only thing that migrates so to speak in metal is valence shell electrons a charge,not the atom itself, a sharing of outermost electrons between atoms which enables conductivity.The atoms themselves do not realign but remain analagous. In reference to semiconductors, there is a "migration" of charges so to speak from negative to positive and vice versa,i.e.,PNP and NPN transistor configuration but no movement of full atoms themselves. Current flow in a wire is uniform at DC irregardless of sizing. With an AC current,which of course is frequency dependent, current flows mostly uniformly through the wire,again irregardless of wire diameter, at low frequencys such as common 60Hz in NA homes and as the frequency increases, usually over 100KHz or so the current flow will move to the outer layers and surface of the wire. I'm sure you've heard of this the "skin effect", which is inconsequential anyway at audio frequencies. The principal advantage of using larger speaker wire,or wire in general, 12g,10g is that the surface area of the conductor is increased exponentially,thus aiding conductivity.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1138
Registered: Oct-07
Electromigration is a KNOWN phenom of semiconductor processing.
Where the metalization layer goes over layers underneath, sometimes it gets thinner. In general you ask for good 'step coverage' to go over such geography under the metal layer.

Where the metal get thinner, current density is higher and the metal WILL migrate. Very slowly, to be sure.

While my answer was being smart-xxx, as it can only marginally apply to macro level power cords and such, EM is REAL and taken into account during design and fabrication of semiconductor devices.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1139
Registered: Oct-07
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration
 

Silver Member
Username: 420pimp2

Baltimore Atlantic Ci..., MD, NJ

Post Number: 904
Registered: Jan-06
Im lost...
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1140
Registered: Oct-07
What I am suggesting is that there just MIGHT be some mechanism for cables to change under the influence of running them.
I don't see yet, how cryo could make a difference since once warmed, the metal will do what it wants anyway.
 

Silver Member
Username: Eramsey

South carolina United States

Post Number: 615
Registered: Feb-05
Hello Leo sorry for the delayed response but been busy lately. The phenomenon you speak of is real and I was unaware of it previously. Honestly this would qualify as a "nitty gritty" detail that perhaps only 4 year undergraduate computer engineering students might have some knowledge. When I was in school, I only took about 4 or 5 courses pertaining to IC's, digital circuits, microprocessors as such we could only touch on the major aspects, transistors,binary,hex,octal numerical systems,counters,registers,operational gates,logic etc.,etc. One could in theory spend an entire undergraduate study on IC's alone! Nowadays in industrial settings we simply throw a bad board out,it's simply not cost effective to troubleshoot them anymore. Any way to the subject. First and foremost I didn't find your answer offensive or "smart alleck" in any way,so don't worry about that. Now I must say that this particular phenomon is only applicable to ic's and not to any conventional copper wiring. A sealed power cord, meaning the copper wire is ensheathed in the insulator under a vaccum should last indefinately but in reality oxidation and some amount of moisture however small will invariably get in but this could take a couple of centuries. At the micro level with ic's constant bombardment of electrons can eventually impart micro level movements of the sandwiched micro fine metal layers. But in a copper conductor of any length or gauge or signal, VDC or VAC no movement of metal transpires at the subatomic level, protons and neutrons remain "fixed" in the bond structure with only valence shell electrons exhibiting any movement. Cryofreezing metals is a legitamate metallurgy process with acheivable benefits but only in special applications like metals under great stress or considerable rotational movements. I don't believe any copper conductor used for the purpose of audio transmission would gain any realistic benefit from this process. With even cheap ic's made so efficiently and well these days, elctromigration theory is largely a non concern anymore.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1144
Registered: Oct-07
Eric, I'm not degreed, but rather a victim of 25yrs+ of semiconductor and IC manufacturing experience. All my experience is practical and OJT, except for my predilection for shop math and good engineering reasoning I have no special advanced education.....well, a few seminars on hi vacuum and some specialized machines.

I rather suspect that EM would be an issue in a power cord used over generations....about 5 to start.

EM is all about momentum transfer, which should occur at both small and large scales. Current density in ICs is pretty large, especially in power devices. For example, I have seen devices with 4 microns and MORE of metalization. I don't know what is being done in current logic stuff or CPUs, but metal layers of a tenth of a micron would not be uncommon and maybe thinner based on current submicron devices.

Yes, design and knowledge has come a long way. Thinner layers of semiconductors makes it easier to have the above layer 'conform'. Big steps make it more difficult to get good step coverage which makes problems like EM worse. I wish I had some SEM photos to show you of bad coverage.
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