EeHelp with DIN to RCA I/C for Naim CDX CD player

 

New member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 1
Registered: May-08
Sorry if this has already been discussed to death but new to the forum. I've spent the last week trying out the Chord Anthem 2 DIN to RCA for my Naim CDX (original, not CDX2). This cable is $600 so it isn't cheap. After being in a trance of how much detail is retrieved with this cable, I have come to realize that it is causing listener fatigue with a headache setting in after 30 minutes or so of listening. It is incredible of how much inner details this cable is able to pull out of every CD. To my ears, it seems to be tipped up on the treble side, smooth, exciting and detailed. I can live with all this and would buy the cable in a heart beat if it had body to the music. The body to everything is missing.

I'm going crazy trying to figure out the best I/C. My local Naim dealer doesn't carry or like the Chrysalis which seems strange since so many Naim dealers swear by this cable being the match to the supplied Naim cable while some say it is edgy in the trebles. I tried the Cobra 3 which seems a lot better than the Cobra 2 but seems soft especially in the inner details of the trebles. My dealer has the Nordost Blue Heaven that a lot of folks like but I've read over and over again about it messing up the timing so haven't seriously tried it.

I'm so tired of trying to figure this out that I'm ready to either buy the Cobra 3 and so heck with it or just order the Chrysalis (if I can still find one) and hope it is everything everyone says it is. The Crimson doesn't get good reviews from folks.

I sure hope Frank A. would reply since I really respect his opinion. The folks on the Naim forum seem to be brutal at times. I guess if you combine the Cobra 3 with the Anthem 2 then you would get the Hi-Line for $1,100......well, maybe not.

Really appreciate any input at this point.

Thanks!
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2778
Registered: May-05
The Naim forum guys have a ton of useful info, but they're extremely biased IMO. Anything other than Naim is like insulting the Queen of England to them.

I'm guessing you don't have a Naim pre-amp or integrated amp. If Naim makes a DIN to RCA cable, I'd go with that. I don't think they do though. My advice is to try out anything you can get your hands on. If your dealer is willing to let you take home a couple of different cables to try out, that's the way to go.

Forget about other folks reviews. You don't have the same ears, equipment, room, and music.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pcstockton

Post Number: 51
Registered: Apr-08
Naim does not make a DIN-to-RCA cable, or vice versa, and the one i bought (Chord Crimson) was bought directly from Naim. And yes it seems that Naim does endorse the use of a Chord I/C when one is needed.

Be careful over in the Naim forum though. Read the rules, and try not to take offense to what the guys with 2000+ posts tell you.

My guess is that your initial inquiries will result in alot of various smiley faces, and inside jokes.

They, we, are a strange lot.

By the way, my Chord Crimson (RCA-to-DIN) is used for my external DAC. And it performs very well. and it was $110 USD. I highly recommend.

Also, make sure whatever I/C you do end up with is going in the correct direction.

You can have the RCA at the source end, or at the preamp end. You will want to ensure you are getting the correct direction.

In your case, you need the opposite of my Chord. You need DIN at the source. The Chord packaging should clearly spell this out. If not. Check the directional arrows on the cord itself. The arrows always correspond to the direction of the music.
 

New member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 2
Registered: May-08
Yeah, I just got off the Naim forum. The one person, Frank Abella (hopefully spelled his last night right) said for me to try and get the Naim lavender I/C if still available. I guess it is usually made phono to DIN or visa versa. He said it has been reported to be better than Chrysalis with slightly better bass and cleaner trebles. The coarse trebles was the major compaint of the Chrysalis. After this, he like the Cobra 3 over the Crimson which seems to be common with quite a few other Naim folks. I guess the Crimson is a little too smooth especially through the mids. I know I can get the Cobra 3 but not sure about the Naim lavender I/C.

Any ideas on this lavender I/C?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pcstockton

Post Number: 55
Registered: Apr-08
FYI, Frank is also a great contributor over here in this forum....

To be completely honest, I don't waste my time and money on cabling issues.

It was one of the huge deciding factors of going to an all Naim system.

With the exception of the new Hiline, Naim has always kept the prices reasonable and there is no doubt in my mind that they know what they are doing. They would not supply a sub-standard I/C or speaker cable for use with their $20,000 amps and preamps if it was not up to snuff.

Now, if they required, or suggested, use of their own cables and they were extremely expensive, I would be totally put off by them. And I think that $600 for a one meter I/C is too expensive.

I would be WAY more likely to suggest other things besides the interconnect cable, to change the "sound" of your system. Things like, the room, speaker placement, the components themselves, etc.... These aspects have a MUCH larger effect, IMHO, on the music than the cables.

For what it is worth, I have very sensitive ears, and am a discerning listener. I have never "heard" the effect a different cable has on a system. Nor the rack it sits on.

You already have some good cables, why not use them and address any shortcomings with something far more substantive.

I would assume the "best" (fully subjective of course) cables will show you the strengths and weaknesses of the rest of the system. Changing the I/C doesn't address this. It only highlights or masks things you prefer or dislike.

If you are using a high quality cable that Naim would possibly endorse, I suspect anything you dont like is from the CDP itself. Perhaps Naim is not for you, and you wont be able to rectify that with a different cable.

Or maybe, there is no "synergy" between the CD player and the pre or amplification..... Who knows.

But that last place I would concentrate your efforts would be with the cabling.

Just my 2 little cents.....
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2788
Registered: May-05
Very valid points Patrick.

What amplification and speakers are you using Robert?
 

New member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 3
Registered: May-08
All good points but don't really agree with several points. One would be how could the Naim Hi-Line itself sound so good if cables didn't make a difference. That kind of goes against the grain of thinking.

Anyway a Naim dealer I just talked to over the phone is shipping out his last Chrysalis that was buried underneath some stuff. For $80 as a demo item and able to return it if I don't like it along with putting the $80 later if I get the Hi-Line is too good to pass up so the Naim approved Chrysalis will be arriving Friday or Saturday.

I am surprised that you have never heard a difference with cables or stands. Naim fanatics themselves are very aware of how the Naim CDX with its metal case and metal feet are very sensitive to vibration. I've found moving it from the top to the middle of my rack made a huge difference. I followed this suggestion from others on the Naim forum.

I'm using Aerial Acoustic 7 speakers (original 7's, not 7B's.....actually I prefer the 7's over the 7B's) and a big McCormack DNA-2 Deluxe 2 channel dual mono power amp. Using a Theta Casablanca as a preamp. There is nothing wrong with my system and I'm totally fine with having a Naim CD player. I'm just looking at the I/C at this point in time.

Good Listening!
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2970
Registered: Sep-04
Patrick, I think I called you peter on the Naim forum by mistake. Sorrrry!

Ever since Chrysalis got canned by Chord, Naim have been offering their lead in whichever configuration of DIN-RCA you prefer. Unfortunately, it seems non-UK dealers are less inclined to recommend these options.

My CDX2 uses a DIN-RCA HiLine into the Arcam AV9 I use. The HiLine is quite a bit better than the RCA-RCA Anthem 2 I ahd been using but this is probably in part due to the use of RCA on CDX2 which is definitely worse than the DIN output.

I can't understand how anyone can say that cables all sound the same. In any system they make a difference. Take for example the Chord EPIC. Designed for Naim systems, it's vastly better than Naim's cable in terms of tonality, soundstage and the like. But when it comes to timing it always leaves you feeling wanting by comparison to the Naim cable. It's a subtle thing but it's there. Put in a QED Silver Anniversary cable and the whole presentation changes, becomes brighter and more 'stressed'.

Advice: The original CDX could easily sound a bit bright or louche with the midrange and treble. If this happens put it on thin foam pads to damp it a bit. Alternatively you can order standard rubber feet from Naim. Naim chose the metal feet because in most situations the CDX sounded better that way, but there were certain situations where the CDX was just too 'enthusiastic' and damping it a little helped.

Regards,
Frank.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2794
Registered: May-05
Robert,

We weren't trying to state that cables don't make a difference. I've heard the differences, and it sounds like Partick has too. We were trying to eliminate other possibilities. Patrick posted most of what I was thing, and I didn't feel the need to repeat it.

Cables make a difference. In a properly set up system and room, the differences are even greater. If its not properly set up, cable swaps shouln't be used as they'll most likely just be a band-aid and not a permanent solution.

While cables have their properties, I have yet to hear one makes as much difference as a component change, speaker placement change, etc.

Cables should be thought of after all other options are exhausted IMO. I think they're the final way to fine tune. One reason why I was looking into Naim when I was upgrading was the cable issue.
 

New member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 4
Registered: May-08
Steve and Patrick,

I understand but it isn't helpful if you take for granted that I have a set up problem or the CDX isn't right for me when quickly saying that swapping cables won't work. I didn't think I needed to write a long report on the evolution of my system where I'm finally realizing that the DIN to RCA is very inadequate (not a Chord or Naim DIN to RCA). Anyway my system is musical and I'm looking at input on the DIN to RCA. I've already gone through the whole set up and moving my CDX down as far as possible on the rack. I can hear everything change I make in my system whether a cable, rack position change, power outlet change, etc. Frank always has useful advice here and on the Naim forum where I've posted about this as well.

I will try some damping under my CDX to see if it changes anything. I did this once with a thin damping material that is used to reduce vibrations. I put some of this under the feet only to realize it slowed down the PRaT way too much. I'm thinking it isn't going to add body and richness to the Anthem 2. Frank and others confirmed the same experience with this cable on the Naim forum. Frank also confirmed what I heard with the Cobra III. This might be the cable I end up with. I just decided to try the Anthem 2 when my dealer said they would order it with no commitment to buy. I was hoping it would give what the Cobra III gave but more inner detail......well it gives much more inner detail while stripping the music of body thus emilinating the emotion out of the music.

Anyway I'm glad the Crimson is working for one of you. I have this on my short list of I/C's to try as well.

Cheers!
 

New member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 5
Registered: May-08
Frank,

Not sure if you'll see my post on the Naim forum but I'm really trying to find out if the Naim I/C is available in the states in DIN to RCA. It is described on the Naim forum as a lavender I/C since it is kind of lavender in color. I'm at a loss why it doesn't have a name to it besides being called a Naim I/C. Also don't understand why the Naim dealer I talked to said it wasn't available in DIN to RCA while folks in other parts of the world have ordered it in the past 1.5 years. Anyway I sent an e-mail to Chris Kostner asking him about this I/C. Hope to get an answer to this soon.

Cheers,
Robert
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pcstockton

Post Number: 64
Registered: Apr-08
Robert,

Firstly, I dont think it has been determined to be 100% accurate that the hiline sounds or is "better". Is is certainly more expensive. What I would call "reassuringly expensive" and marketed to the 500 series guys.

The thinking concerning the hiline is that with people spending up to $100,000 dollars on 500 series Naim kits, the USERS wanted a more "expensive/better" I/C. as well as mains cables. Hence the Hiline and powerline. Their 20,000 CD player MUST need, or deserve, a better I/C than the lowly CD5i right? At least they think so. And i would most likely as well if I had a CD555.

And to be honest, the jury is still out on if the hiline is in fact better. Some people still prefer the $200 standard I/C, for their CDP. AFterall the vaunted system of a 52, CDS/Supercap and 6 pack of 135s seemed to be just fine with the standard cables.

I would venture a guess that it is simply different. And if I had a $100,000 kit, I would buy one in a heartbeat, just for fun.

But the Hiline is one example of the consumer base really driving Naim to develop another option. Whether or not they are correct, the 500 series users wanted something "better". Whether they got it or not is up to debate.

I am sure that within a few few years there will be a speaker cable version of the hiline as well. Using the same logic, the "BL" users will want something "better".

Also, the Hiline has its own issues, regarding angle of dangle, insertion level, etc......... I think Naim is working on revising it already to alleviate the user problems. Many feel, and I agree, that a very expensive I/C need not be something that requires a ton of effort to use.

Did I read corectly that you are considering the hiline? Is it not DIN on both terminations? I did not think there was a DIN-to-RCA Hiline.

Anyway, sorry for not being helpful in my response to your question.

Yes the Crimson works wonderfully for my DAC.

And I agree that the RCA-to-DIN cables seem to have issues, at least regarding correct earthing. Which is exactly the reason I want a Naim DAC for use with my almost ALL Naim kit. In my limited experience it is best to keep it "in the family."

For example, dD doesn't think I can correctly ground my kit without use of a Naim CDP. And he CANNOT suggest ANYTHING else that will.

In a Naim pre/power combo, the kit is only earthed in one place, inside the CDP. This is directly from the voice of Naim in the U.S. David Dever....


"a CDX Compact Disc Player has a internal green wire which connects the chassis to mains ground (at the wall outlet), as well as a small green wire which connects the analog output of the CD player to chassis (and, therefore, AC mains) ground.

At no other place in the system is the signal ground ever connected to chassis or AC mains ground."


In lieu of having a Naim source, he was unable (perhaps unwilling) to suggest any other source to try to. I was trying to alleviate a ground loop hum in my system.

So i have been searching for a used CDX to get my kit grounded correctly. The Arcam I tried did not.

The Beresford DAC I use, has a DC wallwart, that surely doesn't satisfy the grounding needs.

I think much of this issue is the DIN-to-RCA I/C. regardless of mfg.

naim wont really comment on using their products outside of a Naim kit, and they probably shouldn't. What do they know of other people's gear.

Although David did suggest, before I tried it, that Arcam DOES NOT earth in the same fashion as Naim. and he is correct.
 

New member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 6
Registered: May-08
Wow.......thanks, I think
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2799
Registered: May-05
Partick - Its pretty obvious our help isn't wanted.


Robert - Why bother posting here if the only opinion you seek is Frank's? Just PM him.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10298
Registered: Dec-04
And have that fine swanking blonde that your woman hangs out with give me a call.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2978
Registered: Sep-04
Robert,

I answered on the Naim forum before coming here. The reason that there is no name for the lavender lead is that until the HiLine it was Naim's only interconnect...!

Patrick, I absolutely dispute your assertions about the HiLine. It is not there just to be more expensive. Its performance makes a mockery of the standard Naim lavender lead. It's there as a development on Naim's theories on isolation. Hence the extremely expensive tooling up for the Naim airplug. Naim tried the airplug with the standard lead and didn't get very far so they then developed the rest of the HiLine cable which cost them a bomb.

There have been very very few, if any, people who would say that the HiLine isn't a huge leap on from the standard lavender lead. The only question is whether it's better than competing leads such as Chord's Anthem-2, Signature and Indigo.

Furthermore, Naim's original lead was fine but the major advances in resolution of the later equipment (introduced in 2000) started showing up the limitations in the cabling loom. Comparisons to other cables showed how markedly there could be benefits if some investment was made in this regard. The standard lead remained the cable of choice only because most the other options had weaknesses as well as improvements over the standard lead, usually to do with timing. Naim's higher level products are designed not to introduce any weaknesses, thus building on the efforts of the lower end products. It's not a question of well, it's better in 90% of its performance and weaker in 10% so we'll go with it. that simply isn't good enough. The product has to be better in every way, otherwise it just doesn't make the cut. This is why it took 6 years concerted effort to design the HiLine.

The HiLine is available in every configuration from DIN-DIN to RCA-RCA though Naim will be the first to admit there seems little point in the latter since then you're obviously not looking at a Naim system, hybrid or no. The HiLine was reworked slightly a few weeks after launch when the airplug's first decoupling ring was proved to be a bit too delicate for general wear and tear. It has received no updates since then.

The Powerline takes the same principles and tries to apply them to the IEC cord. Powerline design has been ongoing for some time but its design is still being finalised. We have tried the prototypes on several bits of equipment including DVD players and plasma screens and the Powerline does make some interesting imrpovements. The strangest ones were these:

1. Apply a Powerline to a Naim Armageddon turntable power supply and the sound improves quite noticeably. Weird, since it's not even in the signal path.

2. Apply the Powerline to a plasma screen and the picture appears to clean up somewhat (though probably not by £400 worth by comparison to the screen price).

On the subject of earthing, Naim applies star earthing principles to all their gear including the amplifiers. This is done by several manufacturers. However, there is no agreed scheme to establish a common signal earth in a HiFi system composed of several units. Way back, Naim decided to apply a common signal earth via the CD player. This doesn't mean Naim do anything different in the amplifier than any number of manufacturers, just that once the CD player is inserted into the system, its noise floor can lower thanks to the common signal ground. I am not sure if this is unique to Naim.

Hum can remain an issue however! If it's caused by bad mains (and there's lots of that about) the most common complaint is hum from the large toroidal transformers in the amplifiers. The noise on the main supply causes the transformers to vibrate (hum). Naim obviously take pains to ensure their transformers are dipped in wax etc in order to avoid the worst of the hum but in my experience at some stage you will always get hum at some point from a Naim component containing a transformer.

Now, hum coming from the speakers is another thing entirely and indicates an earth loop of some kind. Once again this can happen with any piece of equipment, not just Naim, and it is a consequence of the lack of an agreed earthing scheme between components. What happens is that the various earths of the HiFi components are all at slightly different potentials. A ground loop can be made when the system is in circuit and this causes a hum through the speakers. This is usually caused by one particular item having a significantly different potential. The best way to find the culprit is to unplug (not enough to simply switch off) each source unit. If the hum goes away that's the culprit, if not re-plug in and go to the next. Once you've identified which one causes the hum, you can use attenuators on the signal connection or if it's a digital unit such as your disc transport, swap to an optical lead to break the electrical loop and reduce the hum.

Incidentally, in my experience the most common culprit for an earth loop is the TV.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Frank.
 

New member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 7
Registered: May-08
Patrick,

Well maybe I posted for someone to provide suggestions rather than Patrick write a novel on why he feels that people need to try and justify a cable change when not needed along with saying the Hi-Line is only for people that have the $20,000+ 555 CD player which simply doesn't make sense. I agree with all of Frank's points. If Patrick doesn't feel that more than the cable supplied or the Crimson is worth it than fine, I'm not one of them. If a cable like the Hi-line brings a significant improvement that folks say is easy worth the money for the amount of improvement it provides than it seems money well spent especially since an actual hardware component upgrade may necessary not bring as much of an improvement.

Anyway I posted wanting advice and felt I had my post hi-jacked with theories on the CDX isn't right for me, my speakers aren't set up right, a better cable like the Hi-line is only for 555 owners along with all of his recent problems. All I needed to hear was that the Crimson was working for him or another cable to suggest or don't post at all instead of taking for granted that my system or set up or room is at fault. I guess it seems Frank doesn't agee with many of his points as well.

I'm planning on stepping up to the Hi-line and Power line and sure my system will improve in leaps and bounds.

Good Listening!
 

New member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 8
Registered: May-08
Previous post should have been addressed back to Stu.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pcstockton

Post Number: 68
Registered: Apr-08
Sorry buddy....

Ill make my responses shorter and also keep them in my head.

Take care.... Good luck with your cabling. I look forward to hearing the results of your search.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pcstockton

Post Number: 69
Registered: Apr-08
Robert,

By the way... I am in PDX often, perhaps I could bring a few beers and come hear your kit someday.

Patrick
Bend, OR
 

New member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 9
Registered: May-08
No worries and excuse my short reply and should have been directed more towards Stu. Kind of surprised by Stu's comment that he hasn't heard cables make much of a difference and should only be used to fine tune. I can clearly say that he hasn't heard many bad versus good cables because they can make a huge difference. You have to have decent cables or one bad I/C can throw the whole thing off even in an all Naim system....bad cable = PRaT not being what it should be which throw off the whole Naim event. Obviously Naim always realized this by insisting not to change the power cord until they came up with the Power Line etc. Cables won't make much of a difference for folks that don't want to listen to air on trebles, transparency of music, low noise floor, blackness between instruments, things sounding just right, PRaT, etc. if the person is just to have music playing thn cables won't much matter I guess.

Anyway this audio stuff can be frustrating at times. I do like Naim's philosophy and wished I heard about them when first putting my system together even though I have to admit that I really like my Theta Casablanca for video duties. It sure makes watching movies fun which I do a lot with my family.

Sounds like a plan. You can't beat Oregon for the great micro brews, some of the best beer in the world. I also go to Sunriver / Bend area on vacation from time to time so maybe we can swap system experiences.

I'll keep all posted about the Chrysalis and other cables that I might try soon.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 6972
Registered: Feb-05
And great audio retailers...

Oregon has a wonderful audio community and wonderful live music access. I don't want to live anywhere else. I'll be up in Portland next week picking up speakers and will be at another forum members house in Salem grillin' burgers and yackin' about audio here in about an hour. Enjoy that Naim kit Robert...by the way did you buy from Teri at Stereotypes.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Lamcam

Stanton, Ca Usa

Post Number: 75
Registered: Nov-07
I am a believer in cable things now. I had the Nordost Solar wind ic before. When I installed it to my previous Rotel system, sounded terrible! Then I switched to KK Silverstreak, sounded very good! Since then, I am a cable believer! Now, I have an all Naim system so I don't have to worry about cable anymore ...
 

New member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 10
Registered: May-08
Art,

I agree. Portland is a great place to live even though I'm ready for the sun to stick around a little bit longer at this point in June.

I actually bought my CDX from a dealer in Philadelphia. It was a low usage player used as a demo player for cutomers. It arrived in excellent shape. Naim support is about the best in the industry. It is very nice to confirm history of the player if available via the s/n.


Everyone,

Update on I/C. I received the Chord Chrysalis on Friday. It is light gray in color with a dull appearance (vs shiny) and gold connectors on the end. I finally realize why so many Naim folks recommend this cheap $80 I/C as the one to use since it's the one closest to what Naim says will reveal the true audio qualities of their players. Even though it doesn't have as much resolution or refinement in the trebles compared to the $600 Chord Anthem 2, it stomps all over it. The Anthem 2 is not a balanced cable at all and definitely tipped up considerably in the trebles. I can tell since when softer vocals from the main singer or background start to become very difficult to hear due to the treble energy drowning them out. The Anthem 2 is made with silver. Even though the trebles are smooth and not bright, the overall sound causes fatigue due to the lack of balance. The Chrysalis is amazingly transparent. I really wish I didn't hesitate on this cable long ago after hearing some of the few negatives from the Naim folks. They reported the trebles extended and hard at time, midrange forward and bass rolled off. Right now I'm not hearing the reported forward character of this cable. Maybe this is due to the fact that the JPS I/C I was originally using was introducing an even more forward presentation but not in a totally bad way. Anyway the Chrysalis sounds right to me. The bass may be a bit rolled off. I'll have to do more testing but I know the bass is present and not lacking as much as I thought it might be. The trebles at times can sound slightly harsh but not to the extent I've heard on the Naim forum. I'm not sure if it is due to the gold RCA connectors on the Chrysalis that I've heard are there on the U.S. version. I'm thinking this may not matter since someone said the same internals on the U.S. Chrysalis matches the U.K. version except the outside of the connectors are gold. Anyway it doesn't have the refinement or shimmer that the Chord 2 cable did but the details and sound brought out by this cable just sound right to my ears. It is hard to believe how transparent this cable is which allows many details of the sound to come through. I'm hearing more sounds in the sounstage than ever before and the PRaT (pace, rhythem & timing of the music) is down right exciting. I can't say the JPS was slow but the Chrysalis just allows the whole musical presentation to be presented in a way that just allows you to enjoy the music instead of my brain kicking into its analytic mode trying to hear Hi-Fi things in the sound. I suspect it is the rhythem and timing of the music. I kind of understand what the pace was but didn't really understand what the differnce is between the rhythm and timing. Whatever it is I can now see why Naim is so insistant on folks using this cable (at least until they designed their own Hi-line cable). If the Hi-line is anything like the Chrysalis except much better than I can see why it is such a hit to Naim owners that already have it.

I've heard the Chord Cobra 3 does more of the Hi-Fi thing with the trebles being more refined and the bass reaching deeper but doesn't provide the PRaT or transparency that the Chrysalis does. I believe I've read that the Chrysalis will actually provide more details due to how transparent it is.

Even though it is only Monday after installing the cable on Friday, I don't believe it will change in sound much since it has been reported that the burn-in time is very low compared to most cables. The sound did change over the first couple of days with it first sounding closed in, not transparent, bass slightly thicker, PRaT not up to snuff yet and trebles not extended with no life to them. It kind of bummed me a little since I was wondering why I wasn't hearing all the great charateristics of this I/C.

I'm going to keep listening. I was considering trying out the Cobra III again since it would be interesting to compare now that I know exactly what the Chrysalis is revealing but don't know if it will be a worthwhile investment of time. I'm not interested if PRaT or transparecy is lost. I would rather save for the Hi-line even though I'm sure it will only go up in price with the cost of copper increasing so much lately.

Anyone out there such as Frank able tell me what the Hi-line will sound like? Is it a Super Chrysalis? I would also like to know if anyone has compared the Cobra III to the Chrysalis and what results they discovered. I am considering myself incredibly lucky since the Naim dealer in California found his last Chrysalis after thinking he had none left. There are many that feel the Chord Crimson that replaced the Chrysalis is too laidback in sound and actually prefer the Cobra III to it. I for one don't want a more laidback cable in my system since the Chrysalis seems to be the perfect balance. Oh, others reported this cable not to be smooth sounding. I admit that it isn't smooth sounding but I was expecting a harsh but lively sound. The sound is not harsh at all to my ears but gives life and involvement to the music.

Cheers,
Robert
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10319
Registered: Dec-04
Excellent, Robert. Enjoy the music!

Cheers!
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2989
Registered: Sep-04
Hi Robert,

Right! Chrysalis is forward in the midrange, not the treble. The UK market tends to focus on midrange resolution and this is why the Naim and Chrysalis cables present music this way. Voices and solo instruments usually sound fabulous because of this. It also establishes the central performer in an ensemble more easily.

Chrysalis is a bit more limited in the frequency extremes. It's a little bit ragged, but not really harsh, in the treble, and its bass response is a little subdued, but again only a little. A bit like being topped and tailed, the Chrysalis holds the performance together by excelling in every other respect, and this is why Naim took so long to genuinely improve on the original product.

The HiLine is a very different kettle of fish. Yes, it comes across as a Super Chrysalis in that it has the same Naim character in PR&T respects - although it does all of them better! However, it also brings to the table resolution a bit better than the Anthem 2's, expansiveness that is better than the Anthem 2's and an openness in both treble and bass that is closer to Indigo's (way more money). The HiLine is a pain in the backside in that it is delicate physically, needs to be handled carefully and works best when hanging loosely with nothing else touching it. Mine is squirreled behnid my system. It doesn't hang loosely since there's no space, but the airplug does connect and the initial part of the cable does hang naturally. Therefore I get most of the benefits of the HiLine. The RCA side uses high quality WBT connectors so there's no quandary there. In my system, the HiLine is way better than the Chrysalis and significantly better than the Anthem 2.

Of course, one of the benefits in your case is that you're now using the DIN output of your player and this makes a massive difference in PR&T terms.

As to Cobra III vs Chrysalis, I haven't tried it in your situation. The Cobra III generally has a bit better resolution and frequency extremes but I've always felt it is a touch slower than the Chrysalis in the bargain and I'm not sure it's the right way to go. Better to enjoy your Chrysalis and wait until you can afford a HiLine, perhaps even a 2nd hand one. ;)

Cheers,
Frank.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 11
Registered: May-08
Thanks Frank for all the details. I read a description of the Chrysalis some where off the internet where it described the cable as slightly tipped up in the trebles & slightly rolled off in the bass both of which pushes the midrange forward. The I/C I was using before pushed the vocals even more forward so the Chrysalis actually seems much better suited in my system. I don't mind the slightly subdued bass since if there is anything in my room hard to control it is the bass. I totally agree that the Chrysalis to me seems slightly limited in both frequency extremes so I was a little confused on the tipped up treble comment description from the internet some place. I definitely hear the slightly ragged but not harsh quality even though the trebles and instruments sound pretty darn real to me......better than anything else I've heard so far....sound of bows on string instruments such as violins, piano keys, drums, etc. all sound more very "real" which all helps to become more involved in the music.

I am a little concerned with the fragile nature I've been reading about the Hi-line. Anyway I was hoping I could find out a couple things from you. I noticed the Naim dealer I got the Chrysalis from having a $25 Naim power cord for the Naim player. I have the very old and original cord that came on the player. It has writing on it with a 1999 date. I heard this other cable is an improvement. It is hard to believe it will do much for $25. Do you having any input on this? Will it open up the sound any or slightly better bass definition. I hope it is a top to bottom slight improvement and not just an isolated thing. Anyway I was seriously thinking of ordering this from him and possible trying out the Chord Cobra III just for the heck of it. If I had anything I would like to improve upon w/ the Chrysalis it would be to have slightly more extension, resolution and refinement in the trebles. I'm not sure if it is the way to go either but figured now is the time to demo whatever before I decide to buy since he's allowing me to send back what I don't like. What I'm really afraid of is that the Cobra III might give more Hi-fi in the extensions but maybe lose resolution in the midrange so I wouldn't be able to hear as far into the soundstage and as many instruments but it sounds like you're saying the Cobra III provides more resolution overall but ever so slightly slows down the PRaT.

The other thing I was wondering is what the best upgrade improvement between the Hi-line and XPS. I know the prices aren't comparable since a used XPS will usually run double a new Hi-line. Even still, I was thinking the Hi-line may bring out so much from my CDX that it might be a better way to go than the XPS.

Thanks again Frank and really appreciate any further advice you can provide here.

Cheers!
Robert
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pcstockton

Post Number: 75
Registered: Apr-08
Robert,

For what it is worth, I bought the $25 Tibia for my 180, assuming that for $25 how could I go wrong.

I have played my kit with both the original and the newer mains lead. And did not notice any difference.

But then again, it is difficult to properly compare the two set-ups. ONce the kit was warmed up again and had music playing, it was hard to remember exactly what the other was doing.

But it is definitely beefier and that always appeals to me in power cords.

And once again, for $25, it seemed a no-brainer.

Get one and let us know your impressions.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 12
Registered: May-08
Patrick,

Okay, seems like a no-brainer for $25 especially since it goes to my CDX.

There are two Naim dealers on e-bay selling this Tibia cable, one out of CA which I bought the Chrysalis I/C. He's been a Naim dealer since 76 I believe. Anyway his add says he was always able to pick out the new cord when he did an experiment with his son removing and adding in a power cord but not telling him which one. This would have to be significant enough to hear a difference especially since it would take at least a minute to swap cords I would think. He probably had a song or two off a couple CD's that he knew by heart which is something I do quite a bit. His add didn't say what he actually heard as a difference but recommended replacing all Naim components with the Tibia version and starting first with source components.

The other Naim dealer out of Ohio says it improves upon clarity and dynamics but no details.

Anyway the Tibia uses 14 gauge wire while the original uses 18 guage.

Robert
 

Bronze Member
Username: Pcstockton

Post Number: 76
Registered: Apr-08
Ive bought from the CA dealer. He is an awesome guy....

I would go "grain of salt" on the comparison test. He is in business to sell product. Afterall, how many times do you think it was tested to the old cord. Twice? It seem a difficult and time consuming test considering you must power everything down and then wait for everything to warm back up.

But then again I bought one from him...

If Naim says it is better, that is enough for me. Ill trust their research. On the other hand if there are options, i.e. Chrysalis vs Hiline etc., I think the ears can be the only judge.

But seeing that it is, until the powerline is out, the only option, and Naim doesn't sell the old ones anymore. I felt it was a prudent purchase.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 13
Registered: May-08
Patrick,

I agree with you 100%. I was simply amazed while reading through the various old posts on the Naim forum back in 2006 regarding the Tibia power cords. Out of all of them there was only one or two posts saying they were an improvement with someone (I believe Chris Kostner) saying some felt the sound was a touch bright and hurried with the original cable. I was really amuzed how much complaining there was when this cord was released by Naim. Maybe this is a crowd that doesn't mind spending big buck but bothered being told that a $25 power cable was an improvement even if slight. I'm sure been a lot more money if the difference was significant.....hence the powerline. Anyway it is cheap and easily worth trying. I'm sure Gene R. will take it back if my overall sound is worse for some strange reason even though I'm with you that Naim should know and wouldn't bother recommending this if it wasn't an improvement. The only thing that I was a little confused about is that a couple old posts by Chris Kostner kept saying the Tibia power cords were recommended WITH Cablepro strips. It made me wonder if the Tibia cords really didn't change much unless used with the strip since any strip isn't as good as no strip at all no matter how expensive. I plug my CDX, preamp and amp all directly into the wall. The Tibia is not insulated while the original one is.....if this means anything.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 14
Registered: May-08
I was hoping to get some additional feedback from Frank but it seems that he pops in and out with good feedback not to return.....kind of like a ghost.....just joking even though some truth in noticing I'll get some feedback from him but not too much.....I probably have too many questions I guess........it's all good.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 15
Registered: May-08
Well it looks like I'm using even a different power cord compared to the original one used on Naim CD players that Naim folks say had the "CHENG CHANG" wording on it. The Tibia is supposed to have some other writing on it. Mine has a bunch of wording and numbers on it with BOAXING in part of it along with 0.75mm2 BAOHING 1999. I'll more than likely order the Tibia but wonder when the Powerline in the U.S. is hitting Naim dealers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2998
Registered: Sep-04
Robert,

Sorry but I only dip in once a day and yesterday was manic.

I have never compared older and newer Naim power cables to each other. Or rather, the only one I have tried is the Powerline prototype and you don't want me to go there. If you are not using a stock Naim power chord then buy one. It's simple. I know it's not expensive but my experience with these things is that the Naim cable always seems to work best, which is a real pain in the butt when you're a dealer, let me tell you! :-) Incidentally, the Powerline is close to completion, but it is very expensive and I wonder whether you'd be better off looking at alternative solutions (see below).

You need to be a touch careful with the CDX. When I sold them, I used to describe them as 'not bright, but it can be a bit wild occasionally!' It was almost like it would let its enthusiasm get the better of it. now if you open the window very far, that enthusiasm could get the better of it. I have not tried the most open window of the HiLine with a CDX. That would be an interesting experiment.

The XPS is a different kettle of fish. the better power regulation and more accurate power supplies to the various parts of the player definitely help control the excesses but it still remains a CDX. Some people felt it was too much; others felt that it brought new definition to the whole process. The same is true for the CDX2. Now me personally, I think the XPS2 on a CDX2 is a fantastic improvement, not just better, but in the right system it's absolutely fabulous. And yetm, there are those who say that it stresses the CDX2 which also has a slightly wayward character incidentally. They feel it's too much. So there's a running theme there. In my view it's wonderful but there are those who remain unconvinced that the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. I don't get that at all personally. So for $200 more than a new Powerline, I'd go the XPS route - you can always add a Powerline later!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rsh

Beaverton, Oregon

Post Number: 16
Registered: May-08
Thanks a bunch Frank for the great input as always.

I ordered the Tibia yesterday so should hopefully be here on Saturday but soon regardless. I wish you were located in the states since I would buy always from you with all the great advice you've given me. Folks having you close are lucky. The power cord I have on my CDX now was supplied from a Naim dealer in another state that I bought the demo CDX from so sure it was an earlier version used by Naim dealers before the Tibia was available and recommended. I'm curious to see what it does but not expecting a jaw dropping change for $25 even though any improvement will be worth it. I'm not surprised the Tibia uses 14 gauge compared to the 18 gauge on my current ac cord but am surprised the Tibia is not a shielded power cord while the earlier ones were. I always thought shielded cables were best to eliminate noise. I'm sure there's a good reason (performance) for going the unshielded route.

I definitely agree with the slightly "wild" character that can be on the CDX even though I believe I've finally have it tamed. I was about at my wit's end if the I/C route didn't work since I've tried the rack plus other various tweaks. The biggest improvement before the Chrysalis was moving it from the top to the slightly below middle of my rack which is as far down as I can move it. The CDX having a metal case and metal feet make the player about as tweaky as anything I've experience in audio. It can be quite frustrating to say the least. The person that works at my Naim dealer said he had one and tried everything trying to make it work without success. It was kind of refreshing to hear that someone actually was agreeing that the CDX wasn't for everyone. Anyway the Chrysalis DIN to RCA is an incredible cable even with the few flaws it has. I easily think all the positives out weigh the few negatives it might have. The trebles might be a tad "ragged" even though I don't like that term. I would say the trebles just aren't as refined as another I/C would be and trebles don't really shimmer. I thought you had to have this until hearing everything else this I/C provides. To me, everything including the trebles sound "real" and extremely transparent, balanced and engaging. I'm not really experiencing the lack of bass or forward midrange that some have noted. This is probably because the I/C in there before was extremely forward sounding in comparison. Anyway the bass seems to be there in proportion to the recording. It might be rounded off slightly but sure not much that it bothers me. The Anthem 2 actually provided shimmer but way too much actually. Yeah, it was kind of neat to hear piano and trebles have treble shimmer and decay go on forever but not engaging like the simple Chrysalis cable is. To my ears, the Anthem 2 is still tipped up in the trebles and not by a slight degree. I've heard the original Anthem I/C is balanced and much better sounding. I'm not sure why Chord decided to mess with the Chrysalis and Anthem since both new cables seem to not be as good. Anyway I'm finally finding the CDX quite enjoyable and I've played everything from slow jazz to hard rock with it. I'm very aware of sibilance or brightness in the sound. I may hear a touch of hardness in the vocals but this is being nit picky and could be in the recording. It is really that small. The main thing I've found besides the Chrysalis I/C being a huge improvement is that any noise from other sources MUST be eliminated. I have a A/V system and notice a definite level of noise eliminated each time I turn off each of three AV components one by one (3-channel amp, HD DVD player & HD satellite receiver). After they are all off, I hear beautifully portrayed music and vocals that are clear, emotional and engaging. If I turn on one of those components, I hear a slight introduction of noise around the vocals that sound harsh if the volume is increased considerably. This noise can easily fool folks with it appearing to provide better treble action.

I'm not saying my system with the Chrysalis will make a bad recording sound good especially with the CDX but I'm amazed at the transparency, detail, balance and engagement the Chrysalis provides especially when only my CDX, 2 channel amp and preamp are on and plugged directly into the wall outlets. The noise is the biggest enemy in a person's audio (and video) system. Only a person with experience and a tuned ear can catch the noise in a system since it can easily sound like treble extension but isn't.....it's just plain noise. I know believe this may be a big part why some folks couldn't come to like the CDX while the correct DIN to RCA I/C is critical.

I'm actually wondering now if changing out my I/C's between my preamp and amp with Crimson or Cobra III would be worth it. I sure wish Chrysalis would still be available in RCA to RCA. I'm using relatively highend I/C's which are pretty neutral, balanced and smooth. They may be smoothing out some of he wild character of the CDX a touch but not much since I hear all the leading and trailing edges of music just fine. But it makes me wonder if even more musical details would come through with using wider bandwidth I/C's between my preamp and amp such as the Crimson or Cobra III since the Chrysalis is no longer available.

The revelation that I've come to recently is that there are many digital sounding CD players out there. This is a big reason I believe there are so many different kinds of I/C's available with many smoothing out the sound. I probably needed this in the beginning design of my system but am now thinking with my current set up that many cables smooth things out way too much. It almost seems that a good designed copper I/C that is balanced and quiet will bring out more than ultra expensive I/C's many times. Of course this isn't true all the time since the Hi-line is expensive and hear it is a component type of upgrade with the level of improvement it can provide. Having very clean power is another important part of a system with components needing to be plugged directly into the wall outlets. Sometimes you just want a simple I/C to provide the sound without interferring with changing the music especially when a find CD player like Naim is used.

I could be off on the above but don't think so. More expensive cables aren't always better. I've never like silver cables and I've tried a few.

I'm really enjoying my system with the Chrysalis I/C in place. It won't be going any place. I even keep finding myself thinking that the sound won't be as engaging when I get home since my ears will probably adjust but find out as I did last night that the Chrysalis I/C is solely responsible for making the music enjoyable. No wonder Naim said this is the only I/C they recommended beside the one they supply to allow their players to sound the way they were designed too sound. I now believe that the XPS should hopefully be a big improvement in sound since I finally like what I'm hearing without the "wild" sound that can easily be there with the CDX. I sure hate the next time I need to take apart my rack to clean since the CDX literally takes at least 2 weeks to settle back into providing good tunes once back in place. I'm not joking. It isn't a couple days but more like a couple weeks or more if the CDX is ever powered off even for a short time. Without the XPS, I'll never see an upgrade path for a CDS.

Oh, I do appreciate your up front advice on the Hi-line since it could reveal too much of the CDX. The dealer out of California is a great guy and said he was willing to even let me demo it when ready without obligating me to find. Always great when you can find dealers that are willing to do this.

Now I'm wondering what the Cobra III or Crimson I/C's between my preamp and amp would do since the bandwidth of the Chrysalis may not be fully coming through with totally differnt I/C's other than Crimson and Cobra III. Any thought on this from anyone???

Sorry for the long post but wanted to let all know the latest. I'm looking forward to what the inexpensive Tibia will provide.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1327
Registered: May-06
Robert,

Nice detailed post, well thought and presented.

You stated you tried tweaks and that you are considering I/Cs experiments.

I have a couple of things for you to try.

Buy a bag of racket balls at Target or Wal-Mart for about $10. Slide the entire bag under your CDP. See how the treble sounds after you try that.

I have had several types of I/C in my system and put all of them aside for a $10 I/C I made from Radio Shack Magnet Wire and Radio Shack screw type RCAs. Take four lengths (however long you need to connect the Pre amp to the amp) of 28 ga. magnet wire, strip off the ends and crimp / screw them into the RCA plugs. It will take less than 10 minutes to build and is a cheap option that may really surprise you.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10330
Registered: Dec-04
Robert, you may be doing a lot of legwork for other members here, and I applaud your post and findings.

I wish I could buy Frank a pint as well.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3006
Registered: Sep-04
So does Frank...!
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