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Bronze Member Username: VgtvidzPost Number: 25 Registered: Jul-04 | What I currently own : - Yamaha RX-V350 - Klipsch RF-35 - Klipsch RW-8 (which will be changed soon) The problem : Whenever I crank the audio too loud, the amp just chockes, I'm pretty sure this 100watts @ 6ohms receiver cant support the klipsch which can take 125watts @8ohms. I've read on this forum that the Pioneer Elite series would be an awesome choice for the Klipsch speakers (since klipsch is very clear and Pioneer would help that), the only problem with pioneer is that its pretty hard to get those over here so I was looking for Onkyo, I can afford the TX-SR602 and maybe the TX-SR702 so I was wondering what you would do and maybe some feedback about Onkyo, also I'd like to be able to use the full power of my speakers so maybe the TX-SR702 would be a better choice, I'm not using the Klipsch speakers for movies (HT), only for stereo music! Thank you a lot! Here's some link that might help you! http://www.onkyousa.com/prod_class.cfm?class=Receiver http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=633&s=specs http://www.yamaha.ca/av/Receivers/RX_V350S.jsp |
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Bronze Member Username: DjwagesPost Number: 11 Registered: Jan-05 | Many of the Hi-Fi forums arent impressed with the Onkyos. I have an 801 and I tend to agree. For HT they aer fine but lose out with music. BTW 100w@6ohms is more power than 125w@8ohms. Your Kilpsch speakers may not be very efficient and well matched to the Yamy. I would look at some higher-current integrated amps like NAD or HK. |
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Bronze Member Username: VgtvidzPost Number: 26 Registered: Jul-04 | DJ Wages, my speakers are 8ohms, not 6ohms |
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Bronze Member Username: DjwagesPost Number: 13 Registered: Jan-05 | I understand. I was just trying to say an 8ohm speaker draws less current than a 6ohm. But your amp is rated at 100w at 6ohms which should be suffecient. Some amps however dont match up well with some speakers. Example. I have some old JBL studio monitors that are not efficient at all. They have about a 400W (8ohms) power rating. If I hook them up to my 110w Onkyo they dont sound that great. No bass, etc. If I hook them up to a 1970's Marantz 2252B rated at only 52 watts they absolutely rock. The old Marantz is a higher current amp and has better bottom end. There are new amps on the market that offer this high-current rating that can bring an inefficient speaker to life. Many of the "name brands" fudge on their power ratings plus they use voltage amplification rather than current amplification, Rule: if it aint heavy as hell and says 100W, dont believe it. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784Post Number: 105 Registered: Nov-04 | DJ, the power rating has nothing to do with a speaker's effecieny. all speakers have an effecieny rating in dB @ 2.83 volts/1 meter. the higher it is the less power is needed to get the same level of volume. klipsh speakers are known to be some of the most effecient speakers in the market most over 90 dB effeciency, the RF-35 with 98 dB which is phenomenol. the reason that your onyko sounded bad is because most companies fudge their wattage ratings. the real wattage is probably around 60 watts per channel with as you mentioned low current. Marantz however along with other "high" class companies are much more true to their own ratings which is why you marantz played much better. the main reason the yamaha would not match with the klipsch speakers is because both tend to be bright, unless this is something you like then it becomes a plus and not a minus. VGT, if you dont like very bright sound reproduction, i would suggest harmon kardon, NAD, marantz. i think the elite would also do very well. i do not know this personally, but from wut i read, these would be the suggestions from others. but of course it really depends on you budget. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784Post Number: 106 Registered: Nov-04 | also, are you planning on eventually get a full HT system going or only 2 channel for a while? |
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rwings01 Unregistered guest | Hi Christopher, I just bought the klipsch rf-35 5.1 system and I fin my yamaha rx-v800 no powerfull enough and to bright. What's a better fit the HK, NAD or denon 3805? It will be 95% for movies. Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: LandlockedphDallas, TX Post Number: 33 Registered: Dec-04 | Here's my .02 worth... I thought I'd take a few minutes to share my reasons for selecting an Onkyo TX-SR702 receiver to power my dedicated home theater. I'm running a 65" Hitachi projection HDTV, Klipsch RF-3 II mains, an RC-3 II center and four RS-35 surrounds. I am also using a Boston Acoustics PV700 sub. Over the past couple of months, I've spent a considerable amount of time bringing home and auditioning the following receivers: Onkyo TX-SR602 Yamaha RX-V1500 Denon AVR 3805 Harman Kardon AVR 430 Harman Kardon AVR 630 Pioneer Elite VSX-56TXi Onkyo TX-SR702 I set out with a $500 budget to upgrade from a four year-old Yamaha 5.1 channel AVR and first went to Onkyo since I have had excellent results with their past products. Beginning with the TX-SR602, I immediately noticed an improvement in overall sound as the Onkyo was fuller in the low and mid range while being less "tiring" than the old Yamaha, which has now been relegated to my family room. Since I hadn't looked at new receivers in some time, I decided to continue my research and went to a local dealer to extensively compare a Yamaha RX-V1500 with the Elite VSX-56TXi and the Denon AVR 3805. All three were located in the same room and the salesman left me alone for over two hours while I ran every type of A/B comparison I could (using essentially the same speakers that I have at home). Realizing that each 7.1 receiver has common home theater, surround sound functions, I decided to focus on music reproduction for these tests and found that the Yamaha and Denon were nearly identical in sound quality. When compared to either Yamaha or Denon, the Elite felt smoother in the low and mid range. Especially when played at lower volumes. However, what the Elite enjoyed in "smoothness" it lacked in "detail". Since I listen to allot of jazz and vocals... clarity of sound and the subtle nuances of a woodwind or female voice were lacking with the Elite. Out of these three... the Yamaha was the clear winner with its excellent sound definition and expanded home theater functionality. While trying to get the smoothness of the Elite and the detail of the Yamaha, I decided next to spend a considerable amount of time researching and bringing home the Harman Kardon AVR430 and AVR630 receivers. The sound was excellent and clearly exceeded that of the Yamaha. Nice and smooth with great attention to detail and overall response. Both are 6.1 receivers and have now been replaced with the AVR435 and AVR635 respectively. I intended to step-up to the new receivers as soon as they became available... probably going with the AVR435 since it was closest (although still higher) to my original budget. However, I continued to research the Harman Kardon lines (I had owned an HK receiver nearly 30 years ago), and I began to see several postings questioning the "build quality" of these receivers. A number of people had run into problems and returned or exchanged their initial units until they found one that worked. I also began to see how difficult they were to setup and "tweak" to achieve all of the benefits of their advanced technology. Since my home theater is designed to be used by my wife and two children in addition to myself, I began to see how difficult HK would be for them to use when I wasn't around to set it up for them. In addition, HK's remote controls are large and unwieldy. Although backlit, the buttons were small and not well labeled for use in the darkness of a home theater application. I'm sure I would have enjoyed tweaking and playing with either of these receivers, however I value my marriage and family and could see where this would quickly become a problem that I wasn't interested in wrestling with. All of this led me back to my first impressions of the Onkyo TX-SR602 so I decided to take a closer look at the next step up... the TX-SR702. In addition to more inputs, more power and a lighted remote, the TX-SR702 is also a THX Select certified receiver. While not meaning a whole lot... it does give this receiver some credibility that it meets or exceeds all specifications required for THX Select certification. The sound of this receiver met all of my requirements. It was smooth and full yet extremely transparent and detailed at all volume levels. DVD audio is a joy to listen to through this setup and never gets tiring. It provides all of the expected 7.1 surround modes and handles them well for home theater. And, it's easy to use with a well laid out (although large) backlit remote control. And finally... buying this receiver online for just over $600 (shipped) from onecall.com got me everything I wanted in an upgraded system without exceeding my budget by very much. I'm happy AND my wife is happy. Good stuff! A final word on onecall.com... this was my first experience with them and I'll go back for future purchases. First, they are an authorized Onkyo dealer. In addition to a well laid out website, the person I spoke with on the phone was friendly and helpful in answering all of my questions and I never felt pushed into making a decision. I received my shipment via FedEx in two days (I was promised three days) and the receiver was double boxed. The Onkyo box was in a box and was protected. I'd highly recommend them. Hope this helps in your decision. |
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Bronze Member Username: DjwagesPost Number: 14 Registered: Jan-05 | Actually eficiency and power rating are related. Higher power capable speakers tend be less efficient. Actually your explanation of effeciency is incomplete. A speaker can have a highly effecient top end and an ineffecient bottom end. You will still register x dB at a specified power rating but only via the upper frequency spectrum. I'm well aware of the lack of standardization in power reporting from many companies. I think I already mentioned that. My experience with the Klipsch floor models is they do lack a bit of bottom end. It seems their horn wakes up well before the lowers really get driving and their (overly efficient) rating comes from their horn tweeter loading up the db meter. |
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Bronze Member Username: DjwagesPost Number: 15 Registered: Jan-05 | Actually efficiency and power rating are related. Higher power capable speakers tend be less efficient. Actually your explanation of efficiency is incomplete. A speaker can have a highly effecient top end and an inefficient bottom end. You will still register x dB at a specified power rating but only via the upper frequency spectrum. I'm well aware of the lack of standardization in power reporting from many companies. I think I already mentioned that. My experience with the Klipsch floor models is they do lack a bit of bottom end. It seems their horn wakes up well before the lowers really get driving and their (overly efficient) rating comes from their horn tweeter loading up the db meter. |
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Bronze Member Username: DjwagesPost Number: 16 Registered: Jan-05 | sorry bout the duplicate posts. I somehow hit submit twice while checking for typos. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784Post Number: 112 Registered: Nov-04 | KEF Reference 207 50-400W 91 dB @ 1W/1m, Reference 205 50-300W 90 @ 1W/1m, Monitor Audio GR60 200 RMS 400 peak 90 @ 1W/1m, B&W Nautilus 801 50-1000W 91 dB @ 1W/1m, klpsch Klipschorn 200W RMS peak 400W 104 dB @ 1W/1m, klipsch RF-7 250 RMS 1000 peak 102 @ 1W/1m. you logic doesnt hold very well. by your logic speakers with lower wattage ratings should be more effecient which again isnt really true. klipsch RF-10 75W RMS 300 peak 95 dB @ 1W/1m, Klipsch RB-10 50W RMS 200 peak 93 dB @ 1W/1m. shall i go on? for those at a loss for a reference, 90 dB @ 1W/1m and up is considered effecient. |
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Bronze Member Username: DjwagesPost Number: 17 Registered: Jan-05 | First of all I base my logic on 12 years of experience designing, building and installing high-end pro systems for sound studios, clubs, etc. The second point of this logic is you must be comparing like driver sizes/types. This is not a formula that you can apply number by number to differing speakers. Its a system by which you look at the RMS and/or peak and then look at the efficiency and then combine this with driver size and type. After that it's a feeling in the gut thing. If you take 2 sets of speakers both with comparable 8" mid-woofs and 1" domes. One is rated at 89dB and the other at 97dB. 9 times outta 10 the 89dB speaker is going to be able to handle more power than the 97dB speaker regardless of what "they" report the max wattage to be. This is further proven when you look at individual drivers from the same manufacture. If voice coil design, impedence, cone material, etc. are all equal the higher efficiency speaker will be able to handle less power in the end. RMS, peak numbers, like "wattage" are as well all over the board and can be misrepresented. Some base it off of a formula derived from the individual drivers and crossover points. Some base it off of testing and this as you know can be skewed by that test. And as we know power does not blow a speaker, distortion does. The manufacturers know this and they know that most consumers do not know this so they tend to adjust these figures to account for the wide range of power, quality and abuse scenarios. Every speaker has a sweet spot and this sweet spot is where its efficiency is highest. Some have their sweet spot in the high end which is easier to drive and results in a higher efficiency. Some have their sweet spot in the lower frequencies which are less efficient and tend to lower the sensitivity rating. Those in the high area match up better with amps that drive the lower spectrum more efficiently and visa versa. I have driven many a speaker rated at only 400W peak with 1500 watt amps driving 600-800 watts continuous and never smoked one. These speakers had very inefficient ratings and thus were more tolerant of high power. Another point I am trying to make is that horn driven speakers tend to fudge a sensitivity rating. A horn, especially a non-compression horn, by focusing can reach 90db@1W/1meter much easier than a dome but not actually be creating more sound all together. It's only focused its total sound into a smaller area. My point in the end is that a 98dB sensitivity does not mean it is going to be an efficient speaker in the low end and thus it will need a more robust amp to compensate for this extra needed bottom end push. Just hope that the horns (which by the way were never intended for close listening) mellow out as the power increases. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784Post Number: 115 Registered: Nov-04 | sorry DJ. i have read about the different effeciencies at different frequencies and should have had that in mind. i guess this applies to myself as well, but its hard to figure out who has an idea of what they are talking about. credentials really mean nothing here, but it dues seem like you know what you are talking about. your explaination i guess makes it easier to see why klipsch speakers have higher sensitivity ratings. thanks for the info. |
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Bronze Member Username: DjwagesPost Number: 18 Registered: Jan-05 | No problem Chris. The good thing I've learned when you have a speaker like the Klipsch with a lower sensitivity bottom end is that the bottom end holds up better when it really starts pumping. Klipsch has always been known for their concert sound. Warm, loose bottom ended speakers that sound good with little power tend to not hold up well in the "heat of the moment" but sound better with lesser power amps. However many times their sensitivity rating is a lower dB. The goal is finding that happy medium for what your task is. Most of my experience is with really "loud" situations where an overly efficient bottom end, if not not tuned/ported properly means a popped cone or voice coil. The Onkyo 801 I mentioned early really sings when running to my old Mirage speakers and they (8") have better bottom than the JBL studio monitor (12") at low power. However if I run the Marantz to the same Mirages they get a bit boomy. Enjoyed talking with you. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 282 Registered: Oct-04 | A reply to Landlocked PH's reply about Harman Kardon. I purchased the AVR430 over a year ago and can appreciate some of your comments about the user friendliness of this unit. The manual does leave a few things out and while covering the esthetics of the unit very well, it left a lot to be desired about the actual operation, especially for someone like me who was purchasing their first HT system. But really once you become accustomed to using the receiver and have all the settings how you like, the unit can be very easy to operate, especially for the family members who don't know how. I have the unit set where it will turn the unit on to -40dB no matter what volume it was at when powered off. This protects ears and equipment if you were just watching a DVD at -15dB and someone turns on FM radio. Also you can program the unit to switch audio and video between inputs, and will power onto the input with the touch of a button. My point is once set-up, you really only need to press an input button such as DVD and adjust the volume, luckily these buttons are well placed, as I'd agree about the remote's layout, especially in respect to the placement of the light and OSD buttons. In regards to build quality, I think there are just as many issues with any other given manufacturer. The chances of getting a bad unit are slim, but you can easily exchange it if that's the case. And finally the 430, 435, 630, 635 are all 7.1 receivers, not 6.1. Onkyo has good sound, but I'd agree that you lose out for music and for mulitchannel power, a higher current amp will provide the missing low range while mellowing out those horns a little. HK's go +-40 amps, and Pioneer Elite is an excellent option as well. |
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Bronze Member Username: VgtvidzPost Number: 27 Registered: Jul-04 | wow, so much information in this thread, haha, well actualy the only reason I haven't looked further at the HK product was because the only models that I could afford would be rated at 65watts per channel (stereo), but then, I've read on the klipsch forum that HK is very conservative about their ratings and actualy could sound a lot louder than some other brands rated higher. HK/Onkyo/Marrantz would be very easy for me to find and HK would also be easy to try (they sell those at Futureshop (which is the samething as BestBuy)), so if it's not ok, I can return it! Which model would you guys recommend in the HK and Marrantz family? let's keep in mind that I have around 600$ US to spend! |
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Bronze Member Username: DjwagesPost Number: 19 Registered: Jan-05 | The Marantz SR5400, I have heard is nice. And if memory serve it seems NAD has a budget receiver. I think the NAD T763 is out of your range but check if there is one below that one. |
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Bronze Member Username: VgtvidzPost Number: 28 Registered: Jul-04 | But I'm a bit scared to get something from NAD because of all the problems I've been reading on the forum |
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dave0123 Unregistered guest | If you can get one in your area the Cambridge Audio Azur 540r runs about $700, and musicaly nothing in this price range can touch it. Don't be fooled by it's low power rating it has the amps to back the watts it's pushing. On the down side it runs very warm so it needs to stay out in the open. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 142 Registered: Apr-04 | Harmon Kardon complements Klipsch nicely. The Klipsh are a little thin in the midrange, the H/K's are kind of fat in the midrange and the combo balances out nicely. |