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Denon 2805/3805's autosetup feature?

 

New member
Username: Bmarian

Post Number: 1
Registered: Nov-04
These Denon units apparently come with a microphone, which you place at your seating position and the unit automatically configures you 5.1 system. Does this work well?

I'm buying a new receiver for under $1,000, and everyone recommends the Marantz 7400 over the Denon 2805. But this Denon feature might win over a non-techie like me.
 

New member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 3
Registered: Nov-04
The 7500 has auto setup, and is only a little more than the 7400. The 7500 is a top notch reciever (I just auditioned one).
 

New member
Username: Bmarian

Post Number: 3
Registered: Nov-04
According to Marantz.com, the 7500 has the automatic acoustic configuration as you said. But it does not offer any detail on its operation. Where can I find the manual to this device? Anywhere online? Do you know if it works like the Denon, where a little microphone is placed at your listening location?
 

New member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 4
Registered: Nov-04
Yes, it operates almost identically to Denon's, and I would say even a little simpler/faster to use. I also liked the interface of the Marantz. Still, for other reasons, I ended up buying the Denon 3805. Still I think the 7500 is a top notch unit.
 

New member
Username: Bmarian

Post Number: 4
Registered: Nov-04
Thanks for the quick reply. The Marantz is shaping up to be a better buy. Too bad stores don't carry it. I like to go in, pick out a good box, and have the convenience of swapping the unit if it's broken within 20 minutes.

Any reason why you preferred the 3805?
 

New member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 5
Registered: Nov-04
There where a few:

1) The 3805 is very simple to set up, but if you want to get down to nuts and bolts its is more "tweakable" than the 7500.

2) The 3805 has excellent burr/brown DACs which if you are thinking of getting into DVD-A or SACD audio you will be glad you have.

3) I was also shopping for a unviersal disc player and that came down to either the DVD-2910 or the DV-6500. The 22910 blew away the 6500 in my in home audition. It was not even close, both for video and audio. The 6500 does not even offer DVI/HDMI output, where as the Denon DVD player does.

4) Sub output in two channel mode. If you use "pure direct" (or whatever Marantz called it) for stereo output you get no sub output, argggg!. So, you get no benefit of your sub with the marantz reciever when listening to pure stereo. This was very dispointing to me as many of my speaker absolutely require sub augmentation.

5) One nitpicky thing, while both remotes where nice, the Denon remote is absolutely awesome. I found myself getting used to it much faster than the Marantz. An the motion sensor so rocks.

I could name a few smaller things (like the fact you can get the Denon in silver), but the above alone were enough for me.

I had read some negative posts about Deneon recievers here (older 7000 series I think) in which the poster said that the reciever seemed thin and bright. I can tell you that this is not the case now. The 7500 is anything but thin, and I would never categorize it as "bright" in most situations. At very low volume I notices a slightly bright bias, but that was likely do to my speakers more than the receiver, in any case it was easy to adjust it out with Denons superb parametric EQ. Rest assured, the Deneon is as full and warm a reciever as I have ever heard in this price range. I have auditioned pioneer elites, and Yamaha's too, and they just don't compare very well to either the Marantz, or the Denon. The NAD is very good as well, but the first runs of there new models had some quality problems. I have heard that has been resolved, but in a comparison of features, I still would have gotten the Denon even over a perfectly built NAD.

Do not get the wrong impression, I like the Marantz a lot, but feature for feature it lacked when compared to the Denon(for my desires). The sound was dead equal to my ear and you will likely love either one as long as you realize that any reciever needs a little tweaking for a room/speaker setup. Luckily you can let the reciever do this automatically and you will get a pretty darn good setup, and when you are comfortable you can go in a tweak it.

One other note, Denon enjoys better support in my area because it has many more authorized dealers/service centers here. You may find the same is true in your area.

The price for both combos is nearly equal.
 

New member
Username: Bmarian

Post Number: 5
Registered: Nov-04
You're right, I was considering a good universal DVD player in the near future, and the Denon looks like the best choice.

Do you know if the 2805 has the same burr/brown DACs as the 3805? I've heard two conflicting things in this forum: someone recommended the 2805 over the 3805 because it is cheaper and has similar features. Then someone contradicted him saying the 3805 is ten pounds heavier and has better cooling equipment. I don't need max wattage because I run a small Bose 5.1 system in a average sized room with short ceilings. Is $200 worth it for the 3805 for someone with modest speakers?
 

Silver Member
Username: Landroval

Post Number: 951
Registered: Feb-04
Bruno, with Bose you can happily get the 2805 and wont hear any difference to 3805.
 

New member
Username: Bmarian

Post Number: 6
Registered: Nov-04
haha, I knew it. I'm buying this for my family's home, but one day I might take it for myself and hook it up to some Paradigm speakers. :-)
But maybe I'll be nice for now and recommend they save $200.
 

Silver Member
Username: Landroval

Post Number: 953
Registered: Feb-04
You can allways get separate amps for the 2805 so it will easily outperform a 3805.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Riches1

Atlanta, GA US

Post Number: 36
Registered: Apr-04
The 2805 does not have the Burr-Brown DAC's. It has Analogue Devices DAC's (same people that make the Hammerhead Sharc DSP).
 

New member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 6
Registered: Nov-04
The 3805 is far superior to the 2805 in terms of DACs. The 208 does not have the burr/browns. If you want hi/res audio get the 3805.
 

New member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 7
Registered: Nov-04
Just wanted to be sure and add that the power supply in the 2805 while decent is inferior to the one(s)in the 3805 in more ways than just raw power. The 3805 has 4 discrete power circuits, the 2805 has one. The 2805's is not as clean a PS and it does not have the same good quality caps and coils as the 3805. The 2805 is a fine receiver, but for the price difference the 3805 is a bargain. My brother has the 2805 and is happy with it, but now that he has seen and heard the 3805 in my house, he wishes he had spent the extra $200. Did I mention the remote rocks? :-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Riches1

Atlanta, GA US

Post Number: 38
Registered: Apr-04
Russ:

Where did you get your information that the 3805 has 4 discrete power circuits and about the power supply being so much higher end than the 2805?
 

stuman168
Unregistered guest
russ
does 3805 use toroidal power supply??
 

New member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 9
Registered: Nov-04
Riches,

You can find the information on the power supplies here:
http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/pdfs/AVR%20New%20Model%20Chart%20052004.pdf

Also the four PS unit design is quite apparent (well if you look at these kinds of things anyway) when you look under the hood of both units side by side.

One of the reasons the 5803 is such an incredible receiver is it has 8 and they are terroidal trasnformers.

Stuman,

No, the transformers on the 3805 are not teroidal but it has very good ones none the less, actually the fact the a PS has teroidal transformers does not in and of itself make it superior to one that does not. There are many things that go into good PS design, the coils/transformers being just one. In this price range the PSs on the 3805 are simply an astounding bargain and very well built. They produce very clean warm power and even balanced sound, all the way through the volume range. The 3805 is quite beefy when it comes to power. It is much better even then the PS in the 3804. It compared very well (I would say even) to the NAD I tested in terms of raw power.

If you can, audition the 2805 and 3805 and you can hear that there is less crosstalk in the 3805 (almost none) compared to the 2805. This is especially true for 5.1 - 7.1 surround modes, but you can distinctly hear (and measure with an SPL meter) the crosstalk in pure direct mode with a good test DVD.

The 2805 is good, but not great. The 3805 is simply stellar at its price point. I feel very much the same about the Marantz SR-7500, but I like the 3805s features better. The 7500 and the 3805 are far and away the two best out of a dozen or so receivers I tested at the 700-1100 price range. I did the same battery of very thorough audio/video tests on all recievers/U-DVDs I tested in both my stereo listeneing room, and my new AV room.
 

Silver Member
Username: Landroval

Post Number: 956
Registered: Feb-04
Power measurements from a Finnish AV-magazine 'HIFI':
( http://www.hifilehti.fi/ )

CA Azur 540R:
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 75/84W
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 82/92/92W
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 105/130W

Denon AVR2803:
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 30/15W
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 87/110/130W
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 115/89W

Denon AVR3805:
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 39W/20W
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 110W/145W/155W
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 135/120W

H/K AVR4550 (=AVR325):
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 76/99W
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 87/110/120W
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 94/145W

H/K AVR630:
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 84/115W (fronts and rears)
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 105/155W (center)
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 92/140/155W (fronts and rears)
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 122/185/155W (center)
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 100/155W
(The center-ch amp is more powerfull)

Marantz SR6300:
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 73/115W
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 98/120/35W
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 110/165W

Marantz SR7400:
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 93/97W
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 115/125/67W
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 125/135W

Onkyo TX-NR801:
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 33/47W
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 34/49/58W
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 38/63W

Pioneer VSX-AX3 (=53TX):
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 105/145W
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 115/175/72W
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 125/200W

Sony STR-DB2000 (=DA2000ES):
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 90/84W
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 115/125/98W
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 160/210W

Yamaha RX-V1400RDS:
-Continuous power to 5ch - 8/4ohm: 100/110W
-20ms burst power to 5ch - 8/4/2ohm: 130/125/54W
-Continuous power to 2ch - 8/4ohm: 145/200W

What we can see here is that Denon has problems with continuous power, while Marantz, Pioneer and Yamaha have problems with 2ohm load. The Onkyo looks quite bad. H/K does perfectly.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 11
Registered: Nov-04
The continous power test is good for what it is, but what it is not is a good indictator of what your listening experience will be. Audioholic's review sums it up pretty well.

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/Denon-AVR3805_review11.php

Also not the section abou how you can bi-amp your fronts and still get 5.1 surround. That is wicked cool, and I tried it with my Precept prototypes and could not stand to turn it up any louder.

Continuoud wattage is great, but jaw dropping performance is better. The Denon 3805 delivers.

Really, as I have said a few times before. Audition it for yourself and see. Throw what you like to listen to at it, and just listen. I think you will be as impressed as I was.

I would agree that the marantz could probably throw more raw power at the drivers. The NADs could too. But there are so many vastly more important criteria.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 12
Registered: Nov-04
More on the all channels driven test silliness:
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/amplifiers/allchannelsdriven .php
 

Silver Member
Username: Landroval

Post Number: 961
Registered: Feb-04
I dont know about that. It is silly most of the time, but my experiences with receivers with low continuous power are very bad. For example the Denon AVR180x, Yamaha RX-V640 and Sony DE which definitely are not great in the beginning, but I must say they really suck when stressed with multichannel load. The sound comes unbearably thin and harsh. The one time I heard the 3805 it was playing loud and I didn't like it at all. Probably if I would have it at home I would never notice the power shortage because I never play that loud. I dont know, maybe the Denon engineers analyzed this and found that high continuous power is too rarely needed.
 

Anonymous
 
It depends on the wattage of the speakers.
If they are higher then the amp then you will hear the nasty sounds when you hit the power rails of the amp.
If the speakers are less then the amp then it will be the speakers that distorte and you then have the additional head room of the amps "unused" power.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 13
Registered: Nov-04
I design and build speakers as a hobby. I have built and critically tested tested scores of pairs of speakers and a dozen or more subs. I tested the 3805 critically in "pure direct" stereo at 8, 6 and 4 ohms with 6 pairs of speakers. And found it to be delightful with every single one. I also tried it with a huge pair of 6 driver bohemoths bi-amped (6 ohm measured at each amp) for the front pair in a 5.1 setup and was amazed by the power.

For its purpose and in its price range I simply have not heard (and I spent two months auditioning) anything better than the 3805, though I have to say there are quite a few that were as good. I would say I was also a very demanding tester with a discriminating disciplined ear.

To get a good test you need a controlled environment. The best place to do it is your own listening room. I would never buy a reciever based on how it sounds at a shop. You never know how the speakers have been treated, or how they are wired, or even what might have happened to the receiver itself. Plus there is almost always a little tweaking to be done to get thing where they should be, and I have seen shop setups where things were way out of wack.

Trust your ears, but make sure you understand/control the environment the test is given in.

The bottom line is there a quite a few great receivers in the $700 - $1,100 price range. The 3805 is simply one of them, and for me it fits like a glove. You may find something else more appropriate for your desires.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Riches1

Atlanta, GA US

Post Number: 44
Registered: Apr-04
Russ:

Thanks for your insight. Based on your comments, I have upgraded my 2805 to a 3805.

I was skeptical about some the comments you made, especially the difference between these two in regards to DVD-A/SACD. But, you were absolutely correct. The additional money spent was well worth it.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 16
Registered: Nov-04
Riches,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. :-)

I am also quite happy with the 2910 universal disc player, but I may swap it for a 3910 to get the denon direct link, but the 2910/3805 combo is sounding so good that I may not. :-)
 

EasyJoe
Unregistered guest
Russ or anyone
What do you think of Polk Audio products.
I'm using the Denon 2805 and the 2910. Should I get the Polk LSi-9 or thr RTi-10
 

Bronze Member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 18
Registered: Nov-04
Honestly, I am not familiar with Polk speakers. Sorry.

I do know that you can safely use any good quality speaker with the 3805. The 3805 has a great parametric EQ which will help you mellow out a harsh speaker, or liven up a flat one.

I build speakers for myself and others, and I can tell you I have not been able to find/build anything (well anything worth listening to that is) that does not sound fabulous on the 3805. I have no reason to believe it would be any different for the 2805.

The 2910 is simply the best buy out there right now IMHO.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Riches1

Atlanta, GA US

Post Number: 52
Registered: Apr-04
I had the RTI-8's and sold them and bought some axioms. I would definitely say get the LSi's. They have a Vifa ring tweeter used in $20,000 speakers and have recieved much critical acclaim.
 

New member
Username: Oli

Post Number: 1
Registered: Dec-04
Russ:
"For its purpose and in its price range I simply have not heard (and I spent two months auditioning) anything better than the 3805, though I have to say there are quite a few that were as good."
What would you say were your top few that were as good?
Thanks
 

Bronze Member
Username: Russwyte

Post Number: 19
Registered: Nov-04
I should have been more clear, but I meant "as good" in terms of audio fidelity and quality.

Here were the top contenders:

Marantz (the 5500 is an awesome value)
NAD
Pioneer elite


Brands which I did not like (for a variety of reasons):
Yamaha
Onkyo
JVC
Sony

I do not have the model numbers I tested with me right now, but they where all in the $750 to $1000 price range.
 

New member
Username: Oli

Post Number: 2
Registered: Dec-04
Thanks
 

Bronze Member
Username: Riches1

Atlanta, GA US

Post Number: 67
Registered: Apr-04
Sone thoughts on "all channels driven 20hZ to 20kHz" for evaluating receivers:

Hitting 50 watts per channel with just a 1kHz test tone for over 4 seconds would be unlikely to EVER occur in a real world situation with either music or movie signals. So it seems even more unlikely, maybe even impossible, to ever hit 20Hz to 20kHz continuously at any power level -- in the real world. Even when this is done in the lab, it's not done driving speakers with music -- it's done driving a non-inductive 8, 6, or 4 ohm resistor.

Even supposing that it were possible to hit a sustained 20Hz to 20kHz, (and even supposing that power ratings from Finland were accurate) the difference in 25 watts per channel vs. 50 watts per channel would only result in a difference in sound level of 3dB. That is the smallest level that at which the human ear is capable of detecting a change in sound level. That suggests to me that you might, or might not, be able to tell whether there the sound was louder at 20 watts or 50 watts.

That is why that I think "all channels continuously driven" is not realistic. Even to obtain THX certification, the test is a one tone burst, which again represents a real world "musical peak".

I'm not saying that all channels continuously driven does not serve a purpose. It is certainly somewhat indicative of amplifier quality, but only one of many indicators. I would also consider S/N ratio, distortion levels and a number of other indicators to be important.

Here are some other power ratings for various recievers:

Receiver: WPC 5ch claimed /WPC 5ch tested

H/K-330: 66/55

H/K-7300: 110/145

Denon
3805: 120 /107
2805: 110 /86

Yamaha
RX-750: 100/61

Onkyo
901: 110/50

 

Slappy
Unregistered guest
Russ, great posts.
I have a Denon 3805, got it a few weeks after they came out and absolutly love it. Im running a pair of JM Lab Chorus 707s's and a Denon 2900 universal player. Excellent combo there. Im still doing a bit of tweaking since i changed to the 2900 a couple days ago.
Im really thrilled with the comboof Denon and Jm Labs. I did have an experience with some Paradigm 9SEmk3's that just sucked with the denon, but sound fine with a yamaha. who knows.

I see a lot of posts on here with numbers, but i tell ya (and im sure you already know), numbers cannot explain the way something sounds. I challange anyone to take a listen to the 3805 in my system and still say it sounds thin. Warm rich full sound. of course, im still going to get a seperate 2 channel amp for the maain l/r in the near future, but as far as reciever amps go, these are pretty damn impressive.

Anyways, thanks for that link about the bi-amping abilitys. As soon as i get out of here im gonna head back home, pop open a beer and give this a shot. sounds like fun!
 

nj_explorer
Unregistered guest
This is a good thread. I've been trying to decide on a receiver for music/movies and haven't even considered the marantz. I've been mostly led by comments & reviews in various forums & publications. I guess I haven't run into a marantz crowd until now. My life is complicated enough so I think I'll make believe Marantz doesn't exist for the time being.

At any rate, I've got to ask, why isn't the yamaha rxv-2500 on par or very close to the dennon 3805? The reviews on audioholics ranks them very closely, I think giving the edge to the dennon because of a few features. In my mind the SACD support stands out. Sound-wise I think the yamaha won out for HT and the dennon for music (I think this came in a followup thread tied to the review). But even here it was close. The yamaha is cheaper by a couple hundered if I remember correctly.

In connectivity they're both very good with the dennon having additional proprietary support for connecting to other dennon products (again for SACD I think). The Burr-brown dacs used on the dennon appear to be universally admired. I'm not sure why but OK. From what I've read I think these are used when receiving a digitally encoded SACD stream from a dennon product over the previously mentioned proprietary link. Are these used for anything else? Video upconversion?

Power-wise, the yamaha wins by a tad and it comes with a mic for the auto setup. Ease of use appears to go to yamaha.

So spec-wise they're quite close and I could see the decision going either way depending on your preferences. Of course this doesn't speak to sound which a) is very subjective and b) is hard to compare in the places I've been to.

So the bottom line question is: Is there some dennon magic that I'm missing or is the yamaha getting the Smokin Joe Frasier treatment? You remember, that guy who lost the thriller to the greatest.

I'm sort of new to this and I have this fear that after all of my 3rd party analysis crunching I'll get the yamaha and axioms home and connect it all up and say: I should have saved the money for that hollow-body guitar I've always wanted.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 238
Registered: Oct-04
IMO Yahama's products the last few years were strictly geared towards home theatre. While they brought out every last minute sound in a movie, they failed to offer any musicality with a thin, bright representation of what is playing. Some may like it, but as with other brands like Sony I hate the way they play music.

This year's line-up is impressive, the 1500/2500 are very affordable with great features and gaining more and more favourable reviews. As I'm in Canada it will probably be another few months until I have a chance to audition one.

In other words, they're very new and haven't made it onto the majority's radar yet.
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