What's wrong with Kicker subs? First people told me they were okay , now they are crap. i heard the Power Acoustik MOFO's and liked those, but people say they are crap. I owned some Bostwick DCLs and loved them. Then people said they are (were) inferior. I had some Mtx 8500s( the ones with the metal looking cone).They absolutely hammered,but the guys on here seem to detest mtx now. Some people say that hifonics are crap, but my budget OLM2415 and bXI2008 was super loud. The only subs that every one consistently like are anything DD Audio,Dc soundlab, Audioque ,Fi maybe a few others , all of which are stupid expensive. I priced a DD 9500 in my area and it was $680 for a 15"! Good gravy man!!!, that is rent for a month. Are all of you guys like being payed by speaker lobbyists and these cheaper brands are behind? LOL Please speak up. and dont take offense. Remember everybody , be friendly.
Well, as a employee of a brick and mortar shop here in Louisiana...I utterly HATE most mainstream brands.
Most have sold out to cheap Chinese labor.
Yes, the all mighty Kicker Solobaric may reign supreme (in the eyes of the average joe) but they have become they ultimate in commercialism. Put your sticker on every motocross, mma, skatebloard, rallycar, or 'pick your extreme sport' personality...any BINGO, you sale product!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MTX, Alpine, RE, Pioneer, and many other brands of followed suit. They can put ANYTHING on the market and it will sell to the commercial abiding citizen. And at a premium, which would be great for the shop owner...but....
But, then ENTER THE INTERNET!!!!! Oh.......I can buy this L7-15" for $559.95 at my local Kicker dealer, but wait, they are on sale on EBAY(or any of 1000 other grey market sites that Kicker makes $ off of) for $288????
Who do you think the consumer is going to buy from? Then they will b7tch to there local shop that they are robbing them because they mark the price up so high....
GUESS WHAT...the prices on ebay are LOWER than dealer cost in many cases!!! Hell, why do you think our shop dropped MTX???? We could sell a DD2500 for less than an MTX8500, get the same or better performance, and not be underminded by EBAY or online grey market (distributors going for that extra $).
Hell, why do you thing our shop dropped MTX like a loaded diaper? Our direct dealer prices on products were HIGHER than we could order on EBAY!!!! WHAT THE HELL IS THAT CHIT!!!!
Marketing and cheap labor has become the downfall of many mainstream brands. That is why many 'underground' brands are suggested over mainstream.
And just for reverence. Just imagine this....
Your local (chose offshore car brand here) dealer will sell you at truck for 30K, but If you go online and reach the (chose offshore car brand here) direct, they sell the same truck to you for 22K...even though they know they are undercutting the local dealer and killing your local economy. While in turn strengthening their bottom line and the "cheap labor force" economy that built the vehicle !!!!!!!
Economics 101.
Do work son.....?
In conclusion. You can (in many cases) get better products from underground brands than from mainstream brands for the same or better prices MSRP)
if you were to go to ur local best bu and see a brand new fi q 12 for sale... do u have ANY IDEA HOW MUCH THEYD CHARGE!? Easily 500 but u can get it for 280 shipped online...or say a custom tc9 or something, etc etc. Hell, dont they charge like 200+ for a type r? i dont see how people can be so dumb to go to local shops and just get ripped out of the as s
In addition you HAVE to realize the amount of $$ the mainstream companies pour into their ad campaigns. Exposure is their best friend and they have better success in blanketing the masses with bikini clad chicks pointing at their crap than actually developing a better product. Marketing over engineering, it's the cheaper/faster route to market saturation. Besides, their target age group isn't known for doing their homework on investments anyway........and they know that.
In other words:
If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance you baffle them with your bullshit.
Brick and mortar shop. A business built over time that instills honesty while still remaining profitable. Usually because of return customers and word of mouth advertising. Err, or something like that lol.
brick and mortar = your local shop your worst nightmare.
Yea. You say we rip you. I say...yea...the shops that carry brands that sell so distributors that well online DO RIP YOU!!!
WHY??? They are to stupid to carry brands that do not RIP OFF their local economy.
Hell, Alpine connected use about 2 months ago trying to get us on as a retail shop. I talked to the factory rep and and asked him why they hell would I want to be an Alpine dealer when the average joe can get they brand online for less than I can direct from him???!!!!! That and why do you need another local retail shop when there is already 3 other shops within 10miles of us that carry the brand??? (can you say 'saturation').
I would much rather see you by an Fi (of any kind) sub over an RE, Kicker, Alpine, RF, MTX,, or any other sold-out brand.
Ryan...just a question... How much do you make per hour? Would you be pissed if you got fired and I took your job at 1/2 the wage?
i only payed 336 shipped for my 15" FI Q loaded.... i tend to side with canaan, they rip off the local shops for what they can unload product make more money, then under sell on the web. but its your money spend it how you want.
Yes, alot of brands unload on the web at under dealer cost.
Think "Walmart Syndrome".
....Build it cheaper, sell more....even though it is at little profit, you still make $.
BUT, at a point, supply vs demand takes over. You make too muck cheap product and the retail dealers can't keep up and be profitable. Brand sells online to cut losses, dealer suffer due to this. Dealers suffer, local economies suffer. Brand still makes $ or at least breaks even. RF has been having hell because of this for years, since the late 90's they just can't get their chit together.
Also, a good local installer will know how to design your system to your likings. I spend time w/ each of my customers to determine just what they are looking for in a daily system. Some people come in wanting a 150dB system, but after hearing what a 140dB bass system can do (w/ flat response), they are hooked! To hell with a peaky SPL system, smooth response on all music is all they ever wanted!!!!
Bose. A perfect example of just that. Most ppl think of Bose with high regards. Why? Because their company has driven into your heads that their products are indeed that great, usually through our own ignorance that if it costs more it MUST be better. WRONG!!!
Years ago their HT subwoofers were built so that the consumer couldn't service their their own product. Meaning they sealed the boxes forcing an authorized service agent to fix your crappy sub when it failed. That ensured them that you didn't get to see the inner workings of their designs. If you were rich enough to own Bose then you were rich enough to pay heavily for repair, which was far more often than normal.
And even though you were amazed at the sound in the store you have to realize the blanket they pulled over your eyes. Their displays were perfectly designed and used audio tracks that complimented the experience as well as their equipment. Those today who defend their purchase of Bose products do so to save face. Nobody wants to admit spending $1200 on paper cones and "average" electronics assembled by the lowest bidder. Seriously, if you were to tear apart a Bose product and inspect it you would be crying inside.
i make minimum wage.. so ud be working at about 3.75 an hour. and yea.. id be pissed as hell, even though im a salesman for dish network and the work kinda blows.
I have read every response and have concluded that maybe i like crappy " one note wonder" products. LOL LOL Dang ! that means I suck. LOl Did not see that one coming.
I used to ponder over how a company can make more bottom line profit by building something overseas and paying to have it shipped 1000's of miles on a boat. Then you see the sweat shops in China and such, where they get paid, well, almost nothing and work 16 hours a day with no benefits.
Multiply that by the mega amount of product that we import from them and you see why.
I have read every response and have concluded that maybe i like crappy " one note wonder" products. LOL LOL Dang ! that means I suck. LOl Did not see that one coming.
haha, so basiocally... lets say to make a type r... how much TOTAL for labor, cost of materials, and shipping overseas will actually go into each one?(than they sell for 110 shipped bnib on ebay)
i only payed 336 shipped for my 15" FI Q loaded.... i tend to side with canaan, they rip off the local shops for what they can unload product make more money, then under sell on the web. but its your money spend it how you want.
Just wanted to say this. Guess who makes CrossFire's high-end subs?
Just a hint, but it starts w/ an 'F' and ends w/ an "i".
At least they finally learned how to get a quality product on the shelves.
Time for a little seriousness. Well at first I only made a cursory observation of performance vs brand price. After reading the above responses I have concluded that what is occurring is a magnanimous rift in profit sharing vs. caring for the underling. I would appear that these companies release merely platitudinal products to appease the uniformed buying populace as as whole while simultaneously conspiring to maintain a strangle hold on even the independent reseller.
haha, so basiocally... lets say to make a type r... how much TOTAL for labor, cost of materials, and shipping overseas will actually go into each one?(than they sell for 110 shipped bnib on ebay)
Lets say the manufacturer makes 15% profit on each sub that cost them $100 to build/ship. Brand X sells to distributor for $115, dist. prices the product up 10-12% (volume = profit)...That means around $127.50 to the local retailer + shipping of say ~$12.50 per sub. BAM....~$140 dealer cost. So, Local dealer has to keep the lights on, pay emplyees and still make a profit. They do not sell anyway near the volume the dist. sells, so they mark the product up 45%......On snap....$203 Msrp!!!!
Now, local dealer can either sell the single item at say $199.95 (reasonable price) and make enough profit to keep their doors open. Or, they can close up shop and file for unemployment.
At $199.95, the customer gets the installers know-how and previous experience w/ the product. Well worth, say $20. So, the customer is paying ~$180 for the product, $20 for knowledge/warranty/peace-of-mind. The shop get to pay its employees, keep the doors open, and make a tiny profit (for the 2 or 3hrs they spend explaining series vs parallel wiring and 'bridging my amp' to the customer).
Then, to top it off....the manufacturer gets so may subs built at $100 each that they can't sell them to the distributor for $115 each?
What do they do? They have a 3rd party sell them for VERY little profit online (or anywhere) at $110 each per unit!!!!!. The manu sees, say 5% profit....so $105 each....the 3rd party (grey market) sees ~$5 profit per unit. It doesn't seem like much, but if you drop-ship 1,000 units, you are looking at $5000 just for keeping your website up and running. At the same time, the local shops economy dies thanks to your site.
So....did this little economics lesson teach you anything?
canan thank you very much for ur input! knowledgable indeed. now i understand why the prices are so much higher at stores. cause they need tro pay employees, keep lights going, and PLUS U FORGET TO MENTION WARRANTEES!!! my bro got 2 FREE subwoofers cause he kept blowing it... and that REALLY hurts the store... so think about it LOTS of customers do that
Some people's ears can tell accurate sound from crappy sound, some can't. My guess is you are in the latter group.
Consider yourself lucky, you can throw some cheap low quality equipment together and like it. Most of us here would have to spend 3x as much for something we like.
canan thank you very much for ur input! knowledgable indeed. now i understand why the prices are so much higher at stores. cause they need tro pay employees, keep lights going, and PLUS U FORGET TO MENTION WARRANTEES!!! my bro got 2 FREE subwoofers cause he kept blowing it... and that REALLY hurts the store... so think about it LOTS of customers do that
Yes Ryan!!!!
Warranties in a retail shop are all kinds of hell!!!! Warranties are one of the MAJOR reasons we carry the brands we have here at the shop. Any BS shop could replace craps subs every week, but we carry stuff that doesn't blow unless you are doing something stupid!!!!!! DD, ARC, dBDrive...those are our main lines here at the shop.
If you blow a GOOD sub/amp/speaker, it it usually (95% of the time) your fault.
A MAJOR FAULT I HAVE AGAINST MAINSTEAMS BRANDS.... Is that the word WARRANTY, has taken a totally different meaning other than "manufacturer defect", in the eyes of the average joe.
I hate to say it, but 90% of the returns I see here at the shop fall under 2 categorizes....
1) My friend said he could make my subs louder 2) I loaned my car to my buddy.
#1 usually shows up w/ bass boost and gain pegged. #2 usually shows up w/ a buddy denying he played it "up that loud".
I can count on 1 hand how many LEGITIMATE warranty issues I have seen in the last 2yrs!. (Manufacturer defects, not user abuse from the brands I carry)
Hell, the guys from DD told me to cut the cone out the any blown woofer right in front of the customer and explain to them why they blew it!!! I have had enough experience w/ car audio that I can explain nearly anything in detail that would flabbergast the average person. Clipping will kill anything!!!!
canaan, if you are ever in Atlanta let me buy you a beer so i can geek out with you if you don't mind.
and when i was 16 and started getting in to car audio..... well i started at fry's and there installers after the 2 good guys they had left cuz there business practices fail i ended up blowing ~9k of equipment beacouse of them in returns and exchanges they killed my on-board comp in my jeep beacouse they screwed in the power distro block to my back seat and didn't have it a wood spacer so the screws weren't grounded and sparking, they had to redo my car a few times, then i lost my right to use my warranty's and to return my stuff, and the employees where told if they sold me an extended warranty that they where fired or if there where seen working on my car they where fired.
ever sense i started doing my own installs the only problem i have is with making boxes (cant cut a strait line for some reason.) i haven't had any real problems.
Canaan to you, I would have to say you are being over generous when you say 95% only. Dude I would attribute 96- 97 % of failures of well built products are due directly to user error. This phenomenon is not only limited to car audio. I know a person whose digital camera kept crashing and they could not figure out why. It turns out the memory card they were using was to large thus exceeding the usable storage cache thus causing operating system collapse. My family and I see so much stupidity that we have an inside joke in which we tell people " you are using that in a manner inconsistent with it's labeling". Funny to us, but hey we are geeks. LOL
What's wrong with Kicker subs? -The round subs are pretty good for the price. The solobarics/square subs.. a lot of issues. tinsel lead slap and separation, surround separation, cone flex distortion, limited excursion due to the design, etc. any non-round speaker is subject to cone distortion. That's simply physics. You can't put even force on a non-round cone at high excursion.
i heard the Power Acoustik MOFO's and liked those, but people say they are crap. -They're "OK" but not fantastic. PA is a mass produced overseas company that has really gone downhill since their inception a few decades ago. They'ce changed hands a few times and lost what made them great back in the 80s. Anyway, the MOFO subs are OK but there's better stuff out there for the price. They get loud, but the BL curve is nothing to ooh and ahh over.
I owned some Bostwick DCLs and loved them. Then people said they are (were) inferior. -never used them.
I had some Mtx 8500s( the ones with the metal looking cone).They absolutely hammered,but the guys on here seem to detest mtx now. -MTX never really was known for making great speakers. The 8500 series was about the only decent sub they made. Overpriced, but it was a good sub. Still, good at loud, if that's all you're after. They do make some decent amplifiers, though.
Some people say that hifonics are crap, but my budget OLM2415 and bXI2008 was super loud. -HiFonics ticked off a lot of people by rating the output of their amplifiers @ 16VDC with an unregulated power supply, yielding numbers that nobody could repeat in an actual car. Shoddy practice, but not as uncommon as you may think.
The only subs that every one consistently like are anything DD Audio,Dc soundlab, Audioque ,Fi maybe a few others , all of which are stupid expensive. -What do you consider stupid expensive? Have you even looked at Fi? You can buy one of their subs for about $200-250, and outperform probably two of any of the subs you listed. If you want good and cheap, look at Alpine Type-R, or Kicker CompVR or VX subs. You get what you pay for in car audio. Garbage in, garbage out. This isn't a cheap hobby. Whomever told you that it was a cheap hobby, was sorely misleading you.
The DD9500 is a competition sub. If you want to compete in SPL events, or told us you want an SPL system, then we're going to point you toward SPL oriented gear. Loud is expensive at that level. If you just want a good daily driver sub, then say so, and give us a budget. The best way to ask for advie on gear in car audio is one of two ways: -give a budget and a goal, OR give us specific gear you want to use. Don't specify a budget AND a power requirement together. That limits you, most times, to utter crap. (I need a 5000 watt amp and I have $100 to spend!) Instead, just say, "I need a good amp for $250 to drive XXXXX sub" and you'll get better results. Learning how to ask a question properly is an amazingly important skill to possess.
@flat, my famly is full of geeks, my dad from MIT, my sister from GA tech, i am lazy and doing devry. we usaly call it a human keyboard interface issue, in this case its more like a human vol knob interface issue.
@glasswolf, where have you been? thought you ran away. also whats your thought's on sundown subs? i got a chance to hear one 12" that kicked the crap out of my old old setup of 4 12"s and my later setup of 2 12"s on ~ 1k wrms.
GlassWolf, always a pleasure to hear you weigh in. Like most people only lightly informed, sometimes one does not truly know what one wants. Now that am am a little older, I lean towards voice clarity (hear the words above the bass)a little more. But as you know ,this clarity is not necessarily accurate ( as demonstrated by the P.A. horns I use in my ride Ha HA HA) I do have quite a few youngsters i still hang out with (brothers and their friends, I am not creepy LOL) and I absolutely must destroy their street setups. And as long as they continue to browse the flea market for equipment, my job will be quite easy. i want some sick spl this time. This is a daily driver and I have my amp. Big ups to deathoob for input and Daniel Bonham for my amp decision.
haha you guys explained this very well, my girl is always asking me why i love to shop for everyday things off the internet. and i always tell her. i dont give a ... about the ceo at walmart or jcpenny or whatever store it is, and i dont like to basically give my money to him to pay for his mansion, or to pay for his building, his lights, his clean up crew, and his employees i just go to the stores to window shop and then find it online for cheaper i go to business school so talking about stuff like this excites me lol