BATTs run your AMPs
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Bronze Member Username: RuckusOh Post Number: 12 Registered: Apr-05 | I have been doing a TON of research on setting up my system, and I have read on here that upgrading your alternator is the way to go for more power for you amps, and I'm not saying it wont help, but YOUR AMP RUNS OFF YOUR BATTs NOT YOUR ALT, the alternator is simply part of the charging system. Yes, it helps to get a HO ALT, if your batts are being drained and not recharged. If you were to run your amp right off of your alt, you would be running it on an unregulated voltage....not good. your batteries are what create the current. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1034 Registered: Sep-04 | YOUR AMP RUNS OFF YOUR BATTs NOT YOUR ALT Wrong The only time your batteries power your system is when the voltage falls below ~12v(battery voltage), i.e. when your engine is shut off or your alternator is totally overtaxed. An alternator provides ~14.4v when working properly and since current flows from a higher to lower voltage potential its is simply impossible for a 12v battery to supply ANY current in this situation. In fact whenever your car is running the battery is always being charged, i.e. accepting current. Sorry dude, but you've been misinformed. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: Jwbulger79Florida Post Number: 508 Registered: Nov-04 | it's amazing how many people dont know how a vehicle's electrical system works. my nephew was helping me work on my truck the other day. we were listening to the radio with the ignition off and he was keeping an eye on the voltage for me. we'd start it up every once in a while and charge the battery. i thought it would be a great time to explain the functions of the alternator and battery. when my sister picked him up, i quized him on it. he now knows how a vehicle's electrical system works; he's 12. my sister learned something new that day too  |
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Bronze Member Username: RuckusOh Post Number: 13 Registered: Apr-05 | well if that is the case, once you start your vehicle, you should be able to pull out your battery, or for that matter replace it with a AA battery and you system should still run fine, but that is not the case. You can talk the the electrical engineer that I talked to if you would like, but the current for the amps comes from the batteries, and the alternator recharges the discharged current from them. |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 2656 Registered: Nov-04 | Mark Ruckus, I'll give you a scenario which will help you understand. Let's say you have a 100% DEAD battery. To start the car, what do you do? You ask for a boost right? What happens after the car starts? You think all the electrical components in the car is getting it's current from the dead battery? Think about it. It is dead. It's the alternator that's supplying power once the car starts. |
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Silver Member Username: Jwbulger79Florida Post Number: 510 Registered: Nov-04 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator first sentence, 5th paragraph: "Alternators are used in automobiles to charge the battery and to power all the car's electric systems when its engine is running." |
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Bronze Member Username: NitescortPost Number: 71 Registered: Mar-05 | electrical engineer = toy trains? he get his degree in San Salvador by chance? |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1036 Registered: Sep-04 | You're right, the battery does help regulate the alternator's voltage by providing a base voltage when the voltage regulator temporarily removes the alternator from the circuit, but under significant load this happens for very short periods of time. Still, the energy required to maintain 14.4 volts is coming FROM the alternator, not the battery. Whether a small amount of energy is temporarily stored in, discharged from, the battery really deosn't make much diffrence. The alternator is still the ultimate source of energy while the engine is running, after the gas in your tank of course. Where's Jonathan? He can explain this a lot better than I can. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: Jwbulger79Florida Post Number: 511 Registered: Nov-04 | i see where you're coming from now mark. it's true that the battery is an integral part of the vehicle's charging system, and while it's POSSIBLE to take the battery out (or replace it with a AA) and run the electrical straight from the alternator, one should NEVER do this. the battery does help smooth out voltage spikes which can damage the regulator or electrical equipment. however, the battery does NOT actually power any part of the vehicle's electrical system or audio equipment while the car is running, unless the current demand drops below what the alternator can provide, then the battery helps out. such circumstances should be rare though b/c when an alternator is being worked at 100%+, it wont take long for it to die. which is why it's critical to have an alternator that can handle the current demand of an elcetrical/audio system, and a new battery will not replace the need for an adequate alternator, which is why we recommend people get a new alternator instead of wasting money on multipe $200 batteries and caps. under normal circumstances, all of the actual power comes from the alternator. |
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Silver Member Username: Jwbulger79Florida Post Number: 512 Registered: Nov-04 | that's funny. we just posted the same thing Fishy. yeah, speaking of electrical engineers... |
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Silver Member Username: Jwbulger79Florida Post Number: 513 Registered: Nov-04 | "...unless the current demand drops below what the alternator can provide..." oops. i meant: "...unless the current demand becomes more than what the alternator can provide..." |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1037 Registered: Sep-04 | I guess the real question is once your engine is running with an adequate alternator would one notice the difference between having one 12 volt garden/tractor battery or 10 paralleled yellow-tops? That really is a good question, but as far as I'm concerned my battery starts my car and my alternator runs my system. Prove me wrong and I'll think about upgrading to an Optima. Until then I think my stock battery will suffice. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1038 Registered: Sep-04 | Ya know I bet my Explorer would run just fine if I yanked my battery. My 2 farad Tsunami could probably provide a decent voltage base. Still I ain't about to try and find out. :P Very interesting thread you got going here Mark. -Fishy |
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Bronze Member Username: Sevin7Post Number: 56 Registered: Apr-05 | im not a dumbass, i know that the alternator powers your electrical system when the car is running, and im giong to get a new one for my new system. But ive been thinking, if the alternator pulls power from the engine, wouldnt a HO alt reduce my gas milage? going from a 95 amp alt to a 200 alt amp better not make me get like 10 mpg, cuz im only gettin 15 as it is. |
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Bronze Member Username: HellbenderLos Angeles, California USA Post Number: 42 Registered: Apr-05 | Correct me if I'm wrong people but an alternator just alternates the electrical current through your electrical system it has nothing to do with HP/torque output. What might change your HP output is if the new alternator had a larger size pulley to turn as thats what robs HP. Thats why it saves you HP if you go from a mechanical belt driven fan to an electrical one, thereby reducing the number or size of the pulleys for the engine to turn. Less or smaller things to turn = more spare power for the engine to use. Going to less or underdriven pulleys can actually increase your HP and possibly your gas milage in some cases. If that makes sense. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1039 Registered: Sep-04 | In order for an alternator to develop power it has to get it from somewhere. For example if an alternator is providing 100 amps at 14.4v it is producing 1440 watts or slightly less than 2 hp. That power just doesn't magically appear. It comes from your engine and since no system is 100% efficient it may very well be bleeding 3 or 4 hp or even more. As far as a H.O. alternator reducing gas mileage, it probably does(mine has a smaller pulley), but whether you'd notice the difference I don't know. I'd imagine utilizing twice the amplifier power would have more of an effect. In other words if you want the best MPG don't run your system full blast while cruising down the highway. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 7794 Registered: Dec-03 | in a properly running car, with the engine running, the alternator is the main source of current for all electrical functions of the car. The alternator voltage is higher than that of the battery, providing a forward biased current across the battery, which puts the battery into a charge state. If the alternator is overstressed and drawnb eyond it's limits, voltage rails will drop, and the battery will help, for a time, to stablize the voltage at 12.6VDC until that too is drawn beyond it's limits. Ideally the alternator should never drop to the voltage of teh battery so the battery should never be a source of current for the car's electrical system. http://www.wickedcases.com/caraudio/charging.html http://www.bcae1.com/ GlassWolf MSEE - VPI '93 MECP Gold installer |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 7795 Registered: Dec-03 | in a properly running car, with the engine running, the alternator is the main source of current for all electrical functions of the car. The alternator voltage is higher than that of the battery, providing a forward biased current across the battery, which puts the battery into a charge state. If the alternator is overstressed and drawnb eyond it's limits, voltage rails will drop, and the battery will help, for a time, to stablize the voltage at 12.6VDC until that too is drawn beyond it's limits. Ideally the alternator should never drop to the voltage of teh battery so the battery should never be a source of current for the car's electrical system. http://www.wickedcases.com/caraudio/charging.html http://www.bcae1.com/ GlassWolf BSEE - VPI '93 MECP Gold installer |
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Bronze Member Username: HellbenderLos Angeles, California USA Post Number: 43 Registered: Apr-05 | I shall borrow the wikpedia version since its better worded then my explanation heh. An alternator generates its own alternating current.Alternators generate electricity by the same principle as DC generators. When magnetic field lines cut across a conductor, a current is induced in the conductor. In general, an alternator has a stationary part (stator) and a rotating part (rotor). The stator contains windings of conductors and the rotor contains a moving magnetic field. The field cuts across the conductors, generating an electrical current, as the mechanical input causes the rotor to turn(mechanical input being the belt powered by your engine that turns your pulley on the alternator). The field may be induced (as is in induction motors) or in the form of permanent magnets. In practice many alternators create the field by using a DC feed through slip rings to the rotor windings.Alternators are used in automobiles to charge the battery and to power all the car's electric systems when its engine is running.So the alternator creates its own power from within, not magical just from conductors and magnets essentially.And yes you can convert watts to a HP reading but the alternator still creates it. The cars HP is created elsewhere in the internal combustion chambers of the cyclinder head using a ratio of fuel I.E gas,spark from the batt and oxygen. By using a differnet sized pulley unless you used alot of them you probaly wouldnt see a noticable difference in fuel economy. |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 7800 Registered: Dec-03 | yes and most modern alternators have an internal voltage regulator to rectify the AC voltage to DC voltage and regulate the output to 14.4VDC above idle. If you're worried about AC ripple, a capacitor makes a great filter for that, although it does nothing for the voltage rails. If you worry about a large alternator creating drag on the motor, 864 watts = 1HP, so a 200A alternator will take about 2.8HP from the engine. No big deal. |
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Bronze Member Username: HellbenderLos Angeles, California USA Post Number: 44 Registered: Apr-05 | Thanks for clearing it up glasswolf |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1043 Registered: Sep-04 | Now what does a voltage regulator do? Well, it connects the alternator rotor to the power supply - the battery - until a pre-set voltage is reached, then it switches the voltage off. That's all! From here: http://homepage.sunrise.ch/mysunrise/joerg.hau/mot/voltreg.htm It does this switching extremely fast, but regardless, there are very small periods of time where the battery is the only source of energy powering a car's electrical system. With regards to a high power audio system affecting gas mileage, of course it does. In city driving you may not notice a difference, but on the highway some small cars with low drag coefficients and rolling resistances require less than 15 hp to cruise at 55 mph. Say you have a system that somehow manages to draw an average of 50 amps at 14.4v in a hardtop Miata that needs 15 hp to cruise at 55 mph and gets 35 mpg while doing so. The audio system's demands would require the alternator to produce an average of 720 watts or about 1 hp(1 hp = 746 watts). With an alternator/pulley system that is 75% efficient(probably a lot less) the Miata would now need 16.33 Hp or about 9% more power to travel at the same speed. This would require more fuel of course and would reduce fuel mileage by about 8%. In other words you'd now be getting about 32 mpg as opposed to 35. Of course with larger, less efficient vehicles the differences wouldn't be as noticeable and since music is dynamic by nature there probably aren't a lot of systems that draw that much average power when played within reason, i.e. w/o a constant amount of clipping. Regardless, if your droping a 2kW audio system into a GEO Metro I'd expect you'd see a significant drop in gas mileage while cranking the tunes 100% of the time on an extended road trip. However, in this case I think I'd be more worried about the future cost of hearing aide batteries than the current price of a gallon of gas. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 7804 Registered: Dec-03 | Now just to point out the singular flaw in Fishy's very good discertation, he's using 720 watts as an RMS value. This is good. The reality though, is that average and even "loud" volumes most people use in a car for prolonged periods of highway driving average maybe 100 watts of RMS power. Nobody listens to a car at 140+dB for 3 hours straight. Even with plenty of feelable bump to teh system, you use surprisingly little power compared to the peak sustained output capabilities of your amplifiers. Reality is, you probably aren't, or at least shouldn't feel or see much difference in performance of the car even with the audio system and upgraded charging system. That Festiva I had set up ran "820 watts RMS" of Orion class AB amplifiers which in 1990 was an assload of power, using a 150A lestech alternator @ 14.4VDC, and with that dinky 68HP or so motor, I never noticed any drag caused by the audio system. What drag I did notice came more from the raw weight of the gear. two 12" subs, 12 mids and tweeters, head unit, pre-amp, crossover, parametric EQ, 2 amps, 4.38ft^3 3/4" MDF box.. now that caused drag going up a lot of hills through Pennsylvania, or going up the steep icey hills to ski lodges etc.. when I had 3 other people in the car. That got downright painful at times.. haha |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1049 Registered: Sep-04 | and since music is dynamic by nature there probably aren't a lot of systems that draw that much average power when played within reason, i.e. w/o a constant amount of clipping. I concur. Sure was a fun exercise anyways. College was a long time ago and I'm mathematically rusty, not to mention extremely bored. I just recieved my first order from Knukonceptz and after hearing such great things about the company and its products am a lil surprised at the results. Without going into detail lets just say my Explorer is sitting in the driveway completely gutted and sound-deadened with no place to go. Guess I'll have to wait til next week to get anything else done on the thing.  -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 2722 Registered: Nov-04 | Been there, done that. I had my Acura inside gutted for like a month cause of cold winter. To open my doors, I had to pull on the wire. Luckly I didn't get busted by a cop. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1052 Registered: Sep-04 | Well I'd have to put on a white wig to get by the cops. Sitting on the floor, peering through the steering wheel while tooling down the avenue would be quite noticeable otherwise. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 7817 Registered: Dec-03 | what'd you order and what was the problem? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 189 Registered: Mar-05 | funny how you guys run the dumb a$$es off |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1077 Registered: Sep-04 | what'd you order and what was the problem? I really don't want to comment until I see how they handle the situation. It wasn't anything big, but four lil things that together kind of irked me a bit, one of which is keeping me from finishing my install. No biggie. I found some other things to keep me fairly busy. I decided to make my Explorer quiet like a Lexus by installing a bunch of hair pad(that stringy carpet padding) wherever I can find the room. I'll probably go ahead and mount the Clarion and its DC/DC converter as well. I dunno. I was hoping to run all the wire before putting the carpet, seats, and amps back in. -Fishy |
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Bronze Member Username: HellbenderLos Angeles, California USA Post Number: 48 Registered: Apr-05 | I dont think anyone who asks a question looking for knowledge is a dumb a$$. On a different note , Hey Fishy, when your problem is resolved dont forget to comment on it. I was thinking of ordering from then as well. And I would like an opinion on their service. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 7830 Registered: Dec-03 | ahh then it was an order mess-up. missing or wrong parts. I've seen that happen to one or two people before, depending on how busy they are they seem to do that now and then but usually get it fixed pretty fast once it's pointed out to them. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1078 Registered: Sep-04 | Yeah, so far their "bedside manner" has been excellent. They forgot to include a length of 1/0 ground wire, but after talking to them they said they'd get the stuff out to me asap. Sure enough I got an e-mail notice a few hours later from USPS notifying me that the shipment process had been initiated. This was impressive, given that this all occured on Friday a few hours before they were to close up shop for the weekend. What surprised and kind of irked me was that 15 minutes after they closed I noticed one of the of the pair of high end y-adapters I ordered was diffective. http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KAR-1F2M I decided to see how they'd look plugged into my 4180c and noticed that one of the male connectors wouldn't fit all the way on the amp's inputs. Upon further examination I noticed that the lil compression ring thats used to hold the dielectric and signal post in place was in backwards. After trying to push the thing in with a bit of force the post became loose and the lil ring fell out. I guess it didn't seat properly backwards like it was. Now I feel kind of stupid RMAing a 4 dollar piece of equipment especially if I'm to be responsible for shipping costs that will probably exceed its value(unclear if this will be the case). The other thing that bothered me was that upon checking the status on my original order 3 days after it was made the website claimed that it still hadn't been processed. I e-mailed them about the situation and got a prompt reply stating that they had been waiting on a couple of backordered items and that that the stuff would go out priority mail that same day. Sure enough I got the package two days later, but whats interesting is that when checking the order status today it STILL says that it hasn't been procesed yet, hehe. The last thing may just be a snafu caused by my credit card company. My available credit went to zero and the cc company claimed that an outstanding order was responsible. After pushing them on the issue thay said that kk had basically processed my order twice. After again contacting kk and getting more info I think this cc guy was on crack. My cc statement is all in order now regardless. So no, no major problems. Just an unusual combination of minor ones. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1116 Registered: Sep-04 | Well all I can say is Knukonceptz Rocks! I would totally recommend purchasing anything from them. I just recieved the missing ground cable..... FAST! It went out on Friday afternoon and got here this Monday morning. I also talked to them about the deffective y-adapter and they are sending me a new one. No RMA, no shipping costs, no questions, no hassle. Fantastic company. -Fishy |
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New member Username: EdanDover, NJ USA Post Number: 1 Registered: May-05 | hello Im new here, add i have a question,does anybody know how I can connect a 2nd battery to my car,because i want to use for my system,neon lights,TV and other accesories,or can use just 1. What can I use so that battery dont die. |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 2771 Registered: Nov-04 | Edan there's another thread on that same topic. Search it. Basically you will need yellowtop battery from Walmart, and battery isolator. All the instruction you need comes with it. |
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