Pioneer Subs THUMP. (period)


Jim Boom
I have 12 inch pioneer 500w subs with a sony exlpode 1000 watt 2 channel amp, (all the stuff you guys say sucx) and they out perform or match any sub n town such as Rockford. Peace

Pioneers sound better than n e other sub in its class, you just gotta have the right box.

lol, right..... shows how much you know, and those subs could easily be beaten by a better sub and amp combo. the only people that you can compare your stuff to, are most likely idiot teens who dont know audiovox from dynavox. most people with nicer systems dont go around showing it off to everyone in fear of it getting stolen. If they want to drown our your pioneers with ur crappy amp they can easily. Pioneer has made a lot of advancements lately and their newer stuff is pretty nice. sony's car audio equipment is crap.

go to an IASCA competition and check out the systems there. your sony amp will not even come close to what these people have achieved.
Go listen to a car with a couple JL w3s and some good 300 watt JBL amps and you will not even come close to hearing your pioneers. yes, JBL 600 watts, is louder than the sony "1000" watts.

just do your research before you start proclaiming a fairly low echilan brand to be the best.

Jim Boom
I never said they where best. I said they sounded good. And let me ask you a quistion. What is the use of having great subwoofers if you don't listen to them. As you called it "showing them off" My subs pump out enough bass to shake me and thats all I need. Im not trien to compete for the loudest obnoxios subs. Just the best set up for what Iv got.

fresno bumbin
man has any one heard the autotek mx 12 sh*t these sub bumbs harder than alot of 15 ive heard I got them hooked up to a autotek stealth 1500 watt amp shi# no other 12 ive heard come close.

i didnt say i dont listen to them, i just said i dont show them off. i keep the sound inside my car where it should be. the point of having subwoofers is not to annoy other people or to show them you have a system. keep the windows rolled up.

and you said "they out perform or match any sub n town" thats saying they are the best. yes you did say that. learn how to spell by the way.

Jim Boom
Hey Derek, I did say they out perform or match any sub in town. An thats not my opinion, we compared them. Its not a goin down the street thing, Its not like his sounds louder a block away than mine does. No I am talking about inside the truck, What I was trien to say was if you set any sub up right. It will sound good. And If I had any more power Im afraid it would blow out the seals of my window. And I would also like to point out how much I paid for this, I paid $14 for each sub so I have 2 so thats 28 dolars for my subwoofers, I made my own box, (sealed with silicone glue) and I paid $139 for my amp and $20 for a wiring kit, so I spent around $200 dallars for the whole thing and Its awsome. (people pay more for fireworks) So stick that in ur pipe and smoke it. Peace

200$? Dang Thats Cheap

i dont care what kind of install you have. and you must have some pretty weak window seals. im smokin it right now by the way. its not like you won the arguement or anything. if you put any good sub with the same amount of power to it, ie: kicker comp vr or JL w0 in the same install, they would sound a lot better, its just the facts. better quality yields better sound.

the system i just bought for my girlfriends car cost me 220, 130 for 2 12w3s in a bandpass box, 20 for wiring, and 70 for the amp. so for 20 dollars more, i bought a system that will blow yours away in most any situation.

Jim Boom
The who talks But doesn't know. Derek. You have never herd my system. Therefor you cannot know that your g/fs will blow mine away. And you wanna talk about facts heres one, YOU ARE A DUMB A$$

lol, i can know that it will, due to the fact that she owns better equipment than you do. better equipment=better sound. period. i dont have to hear it because i have heard pioneer systems before. they have never been able to come close to a JL system.

Jim Boom
Unlike you I don't diss your saystem, I know Jl is good But I bet mine could come close, Mine hurts my ears so I don't need it n e louder than that, Right, Unless I want to show off or somthing I mean all I want is some nice bass, and I don't have a very powerful reciever so its kinda hard to hear the music behind the bass, Although you may not appreaciate the low class items I am happy with it. Peace

im not dissing your system. all im saying is that she has a better system than you do. its a common fact that JL is better than pioneer, and when you decide to say that your system is better than "any other one in town" and you have pioneer, it just comes off as amusing due to the fact that it most likely isnt. im glad you are happy with it, but what is the point of the original post you made?

ya my 800 watt six by 9ns will thump harder and louder

Jim Boom
Yeah but what I stated in my first commont about how it beat n e sub in town. Is becaus it would theres only about 4 people with systems where I live. So I wasn't lieing it does beat them. And I just wanted to let people know that if you have some cheap subs sometimes they will work pretty good. And where did you get JLs so cheap? And anonymous STICK IT UP YOUR A$$. PEace

i got my gfs system from my cousin, but you can get some really good deals on ebay. my previous system i got 3 JL 10w0s in a sealed box for 175 shipped. ebay all the way, you just gotta have a little trust, but people on ebay arent always honest, i've gotten some great deals, but i've also been screwed a couple times where ppl dont actually have the item they are selling.

Jim Boom
Hey Derek I dunno bout this internet shopping deal. Last time I boutght somthing a hacker got my # and bought stuff on it. Hey Im sorry I argued with you. Peace

its all good man, i kno how it is. yeah, the technology of the internet and security has improved one hell of a lot recently, so i wouldnt really worry about getting your password or account number stolen unless you enter it into an unknown website. paypal, ebay, bidpay, things like that. im sure your password or account number will not be stolen.

Jim Boom
Alright cool, this may be a stupid quistion, but what does a capacitor do?

a capacitator stiffens voltage rails to even out your system, evens out fluxuations and such. its pretty much a little battery that charges, and supplies energy when and where it is needed. if your alternator is a little small for what you need, a cap can cover an extra 7-8 amps of current for you at max. i dont really recommend them much, but in some applications they are helpful.

i have a 10" pioneer 350 watt IMPP cone... hooked up to an old school 240 watt sherwood amp that....... it its so hard i can stand by my car out side and it hurts my chest so eat it.... lol jsut a set up fo now im only 16 but im out... PEACE

its a good set up... and yes... i know..... theres better.... im trying to work up some $$$$ for a Big A$s Hard Hittin set up :D:D..... recamend anything???? sub/s, amp/s, mids, tweets, ect.

Jim Boom
Aaron Pioneers are pretty good arent they. They arent the best but theyl getcha by. Thanx derek. Peace

I dunno bout subs but they make good 6x9s.

I think Jim Boom failed grade school, i thought you needed to know how to spell to graduate

Jim Boom
When did I say "to graduate" Andrew? Oh and by the way I'm 14, Im in Middle school and even though I am in middle school I am, well you know, smarter than you. So next time you think about jumpin of a cliff, do it. Peace

Jim Boom
And Andrew what did that have to do with pioneer subs. You probobly just said that becaus you know my subs are better than yours. Peace

My Friend has a couple of pioneer vccs 12's running off a 480w amp and they hit hard but sound crap as, they pound your back but the bass just sounds like some sound effect from space invaders, plus his car rattles like nothing else and he says it doesn't bother him!! I got alot of money when i turned 17 so i now have the best system in town, no doubt 2 x jonah lomu 15's, 2 x lomu amps and a pioneer head unit, I'm running 1600w rms just from the subs, i have pioneer everything else too and they are good, and it wasn't cheap either, but fusion all the way!! I wouldn't say pioneer are bad, just need to be in the exact right box and everything for it to sound good, whereas other subs like jl's and stuff can be in home made boxes and still be good.

Jim Boom
Yep, I used to have these subs in a ported box wich it really sucked you couldent pump very many watts threw them. So I experemented and made about 7 dif boxes for them. After all those I gained a little experiance in wood work on the last 3 I started to make sealed boxes. I tried different stuff for sealing them and I found out that silicone glue works the best. And if you have just the littlest of leaks it will sound sh*ty so I listened and sealed listened and sealed untell finaly I had the whole thing sealed air tight. So if you get a homade box totally sealed with the right amout of space in the box for the right pressure It will sound damn good in a home made box.

I dunno Im new at this r pioneers good for starters?

Pioneers are ok if you can get them for cheap, my other friend got 2 10" for $140 Australian and is running them off a 500w boss amp and they don't go very well for what they should with running 500w running through them, hang on a second he has crappy wires, that's why they go crap, they're only made to handle 200w systems, so get good wires if you have a big system,but they seem to be pretty bassy if you have a pioneer amp aswell, the guy with the 2 12's has a 480w pioneer amp and they are loud and the one with the boss amp has 500w running to them and they are nowhere near as loud, he's taking my advice though and selling them and getting 2 10" F-series fusions and a better amp because boss suck

Jim Boom
I got two 12s 500w subs for $28. That was cheaper than the shipping and hanlding on my amp. Peace

were yours brand new jim? He got them on sale at jb hi fi

Jim Boom
Nah mine wherent new. Im too cheap for new subs. They where almost like new. Some guy I knew had them in a ported box so he hated them, So I got a really good price.

nice one, we just went on a road trip to the next city for a few hours, i fine tuned his amps for him, the guy with the 2 12's and got them sounding pretty good now, got to have a ride in my mates new turboed skyline, man that thing flies

Jim Boom
Yeah thats another thing if you dont have ur amp tuned right it will sound like sh!t.

Jim Boom
Hey is this right for figuring ohms add the total amount of ohms of the speakers your connecting in parralel togather and then divid by 4? Try it. Such as two 8 ohm speakers 8+8=16 divided by 4=4ohms. Peace

looks right to me

it's probably right but i've never heard of it so i wouldn't have a clue

Jim Boom
I made it up my self, I was stumped so I thought up a way that can figure all ohms. Try it out works every time.

but what if you have a 2 ohm speaker or 2 2 ohm speakers or something? then you only have half an ohm or 1 ohm

Jim Boom
It doesnt work for one speaker. You have to be adding the resistance or ohms of more than one speaker together. Like as you said 2 2ohm speakers. wich would be 2+2=4 divided by 4 is one and that is the ohm. And the reason I am for sure that is now the ohms is becaus when you have 2 of the same ohm it cuts the resistance in half, and half of 2 is one. Peace

where did u buy these 12 dollar subs lol.....
i need subs to hok up to my cl800 amp. but dont wann spend lott amoney on subs but istill want them to hit. i mite get premiers 48 a piece.

Today i was looking in a store and they had a 200w 2 channel amp for $40 australian and a 10" sub for $40 aswell....Quality!! NOT!! we were thinking about buying them just to see which one blew up first but decided to keep our money to buy something more worthwhile like toothpicks or something

Jim Boom
Lol moonwalker, and Annonomous If I where you I would just look around town if someone is like upgrading there system with new subs and you thought there old ones sounded good and they where in good condition thats where you get them cheap because they practicly throw them out. Like Derek Said ebay its just a buncha people selling there old subs cheap. Peace and they where $14 dallar subs. Peace

ummmmm, jim, just wondering but how u drive if ur 14?

Jim Boom
lol, Farm Parmit, Whoever said I drove I just said I had a pickup. I live in the country. I just go out and listen to the radio in my pickup. But I do drive to like run tractor and stuff like that. lol good quistion. Peace

Jim Boom
This is a really slow moving message bord.

Hey word up! I have a 10 inch pioneer VCCS 500 watt, and i had it less than a week and cooked on a 300 watt 2 channel amp. I say, pioneer are in fact a good brand, but their subs are crap. Crossfire are expensive, but by far the best in my mind.

I reckon Fusion whoops most brands for subs their subs are great, they are bassy as and have really low frequencies so you get those really really low rumbles that most subs can't pick up in bass testers but some of their other speakers aren't that good compared to other brands i pfrefer other brands for the other speakers

whats a 14 year old doing with subs in a car he cant drive?

Jim Boom
I am 14 year old wiht subs in a TRUCK not car. And I can drive it dipsh!t. Just not a full license. I just couldn't wate tell I was 16 just to hook up mah sound system. I did as soon as I owned mah truck. Peace

and what 14 year old buys a sound system for his gf's car.... hmmmm thats quite odd...

Jim Boom
Derek bought a system for his gfs car. I didn't, wrong post. Happens to the best of us.Peace

yeah, Im the one who bought the system 4 my gf, im 24, just 10 years older than jim....

yeah... this message board definitely moves slow as hell... Pioneers in BestBuy's bandpass box were the hardest hitting they had on display at the store... but there isn't much competition among the display subs at Best Buy. all i learned from that experience is that Power Acoustik most definitely sucks.

sorry guys sorry... i made a mistake
lol i obviously didnt read tha names properly
i again apologize to you jim
but i am with derek on tha jl theory

Stop Posting so much guys!! I can't keep track of everything!!! I had a listen to a guys system today, he has 4 15's that had some pretty loud bass, but he is still 10db's lower than me and i'm only running 2 15's he is running about half the power of me though he is running about 700rms and i'm running 1600rms so that's probably why he's 10db's lower than me, i think his highest is 147 and mine is 157 at a local comp not much competition where i live, alot of people have systems but they aren't big mine was rediculously expensive though, but that's usually the way it is with big systems

just to throw in my 2 cents a jl system is still gonna sound "better" i didnt say louder even though it prolly would but "better" as in sound quality because its a good quality sub as for the pioneer is something you pick up at sears....when i go shopping for a sub i looke at SQ before SPL and then i find somewhere in the middle, if i can have a loud system that still sounds good then thats what im looking maybe your poineer's are loud n all but a jl setup that is about the same would still sound "better"

i think a jl system would be louder aswell, they are a pretty good brand i've heard a jl 15" up against a pioneer 15" and they were both loud but the jl just seemed to be ear splitting compared to the pioneer, it hurt my ears and i listened to the jl first and the pioneer hurt my ears but just not as much as the jl, they're better than pioneer i reckon, i've also heard a 10" jl and pioneer up against each other both running the same amp and the jl definately outdid it.

I have 2 Pioneer Gold IMPP 12" subs in a total gaurnteed sealed box enclosure. And I have a Kenwood 1000 x 1 amp pushing them. Nobody in town or around could out hit me. They will chew up a solo-baric then spit it out. Anybody can try to beat them, but they can'y come close.

Those gold ones do hit hard they are awesome, i've heard 2 of them before with 500 rms going to each and it was making my clothes shake from about 10ft away, but then i put mine on and he left. LMAO!! I just wanted to show him how mine went too and he had a big hissy fit and left

why are we comparing JL to Pioneer? Pioneer is like 4 times cheaper!!!

What's Price got to do with it? We are talking about which one goes better, not which one costs less

Jim Boom
Price has a shitload to do with it, Buy four for the price of one hook them um in series and it will add up to way more watts and handle way more power than JL

yeah, i s'pose, good point but jl is better sound quality i reckon, and one of my mates got 2 12" pioneers for like $600 and my other friend got a 10" jl for about $150 and i reckon i'd rather the 10"

Nah actually, i'd rather the 12's, they hit hard

lol... 3 days later you change your mind.

I just think you guys are not compairing apples with apples.....I read someone compaing Pioneer subs with Jl W3's.........assuming that the pioneer subs are entry level there is no compairison.....The W3 is a dual voice coil sub...If the W3 dident outperform the pioneer than Jl would be out of business....But if you have a low budjet than the pioneers really give you bang for your buck.....For example Say you found 2 12" W3's for the same price that you could get 2 entry pioneers.......for the pioneers you can power them with a 150-200 $ amp, While for the W3's your looking anywhere from 300-600 $......Just my 2 cents

cheapest ive seen for brand new pioneer's is 2 12" for 100$, the amp im not sure of, but both of the 12" pioneers are 500watts, how much would 2 brand new JL set me back

well of course you are not comparing apples to apples, JL is superior to pioneer in every aspect of car audio. but heres my 2 cents: JL w0 is better than the pioneers you are speaking of, and in this case they are SVC, and are cheaper as well, they do not take much power either. in any case, the w0 is better than the pioneers you are speaking of.

in every case like this we come back to jl is better. A lot of people just like to praise JL for everything, but in most cases, there is a reason behind the madness. JL build quality is great, and sound quality is great as well.

I got 2 JL 12w3s for 150 bucks in a bandbass obcon box from my cousin. yes, you can get them for the same price. before that i got 3 JL 10w0s in a sealed JL box off of ebay for 175. you just gotta know where to look for the deals and be patient.

again, your price arguement is irrelevant. you are just wrong... and by the way, im using a 150 watt amp on my w3s and they sound great. you dont have to have the exact power on the power rating for the sub to power it. its just recommended and will get louder with that power. so you could use the 150-200 dollar amp on the JLs as well, and the sound quality would be better, and there is room to upgrade later, instead of having to buy new subs.

im back guys ;)

whoever said Sony made shitty amps needs to hear my system. i have five 1000w xplods with 5 kicker comp 15"s and theyre hittin hard as hell. my buddy with an Audiobahn equivalent cant touch me in sq or decibels. sony gets the job done and does it right.

I think sony only make good amps and head units even then the head units don't have as many features as equally priced head units but their speakers and subs are g.a.y

Pioneer & Sony- what a dumb azz.

Jim Boom
Hey eat sh!t anonymous, I don't go off calling you a dumb azz, I bought to Pineers for $14 bucks a piece from a friend and the amp I got because it was the only one in mah price range that I could find with high level inputs. Obviosly you have your message bord name as annnymous because you don't want any one knowing who the real dumb azz is.

Ignore f.a.g.s like that, you're just giving him what he wants, he is a dickhead but who cares? i reckon he's a loser for wasting his time finding this and then making a pointless post like that


what do you fellas reckon is da best amp 4 2 12" subs

what kind of subs are they? try and get an amp that's has an rms close to the rms of your subs

I agree the Wo is a surperiour woofer, but the pioneers are sill cheeper. I live in Canada so......12" Pioneer sub $99 buy one get one free....The Jl's are about $149 a peice..Retail..these are CDN prices...Shopping on ebay is not always worth it in Canada......We have but there is not a lot of variety. Plus I try to stay away from buying used speakers that i have never herd before. Buying the 3 10's off your cousin was a good deal ...As for the shipping is too much...somtimes as much as your speaker........i'm not on these fourms to argue with anyone....but you told me i was just sounds like you are really shure of your self. You are entitled to you opinion but you dont have to say it like that. Have some respect. By the way are the W3's dual 2ohm 4ohm or 6ohm?? My friend has 2 12" dual 2ohm powered with a Jl Audio 500.1 with a Panasonic CQ-DFX983U deck with 5volt preouts. It is a solid system. It all comes down to "you get what you pay for"

hey there, I can find a pair of Solo-Baric 12"s for $139, can anybody tell me of any deals that might be better? I need some ideas though. I was thinking about owning the 2 12" Solo-Barics and pushing 1000 w to each sub. I need some feedback. peace.

Looking for Pioneer wiring diagrams for a KEH-1800 car stereo

welcome to the Jim and Derek chat room. everyone else enjoy their little dispute? I know i sure did.

holy crap. that arguement took place 3 months ago. my post is a little out-dated. i still enjoyed the arguement. take it easy guys.

bash all you little fgs!!!
fu*k you all you little f*gs your all lil bit*hs how you have a lil bicker and then make up what f*gs!!! i go to school with a millioner's son and he got a $25,000 car for his first car.
and he is putting 2 15inch 2000watt subs the back his system will own all you spagetti armed f*gs who have nothing to do exept fight over who has the best system. your system would probably beat mine but i dont live in my car so i dont have to spend all my money on it.
and just because i go to school dosent mean i wont kick your as$es i made my states rugby union team. that is all.

"just because i go to school dosent mean i wont kick your as$es i made my states rugby union team."

Do you think school will teach you how to spell?

I hope you'll find a man that truly loves you on that rugby team, one that can shag you right. Maybe some release will help you with that hostility thing.

W Cook
what about pioneer amps. they any good?

jim bob
u guys dont know anything phosgates are the best and u guys can suck a dick.

The only thing that pioneer makes well is their cd recievers and head units. Pioneer subs and amps dont match to what a jl or mtx sub and amp would do. Oh and Sony really sucks that 1000 watt amp you have probably aint putting out but 300 watts it just sucks.

Well there you go pioneer sux........

wat is the best company of subs?? i was lookin at gettin 2 10' jl audio subs....wit everything put together with the box subs and amps for a z71 about how much will it cost me?

Jay fox
Pioneer is pretty good and my system will kick yours

max power
my super cheap auto system will kick your a$$

90 % installl 10% equipment or so they say.........

"Arguing in the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win you are still retarted."

dude we all just read that and we're crackin up man....ahahahahahahahhahahah!!!

Hey guys i have 2 12" pioneers impp. and they are powered by a boss 800 watt amp and it sounds really good. hits hard and is really loud i like them alot they cost me about $100 for the subs and i made the boxes myself the boxes are sealed as hell. the hole thing cost me about $400 and thats about as much as i want to spend on the part of the car i work on the engine the most and spend ALL my money on the engine but i also like to have some music while im driving so im really happy with the subs and the amp. the Boss amp pushed the subs a crap load better then the sony amp i had hooked up before i like the boss amp even thogh its cheap.

John Davis
Dude you guys argue so Damn much how do you get any friggin time to listen to your car stereos and by the way Pioneer competition subs out perform out last and spit in JL Sonys Kickers And alot of other major Sub makers faces so why dont you guys quit whining and get out of eachothers faces ------------ GO OUT AND ENJOY YOUR SYSTEMS

ps I had Kickers they sucked brand new 1000 watts a peice-- they blew the first time I used my 800 watt Kenwood on them Id take Jensen over Kicker and also anybody that has that much money in a system and doesnt have an alarm in their car deserves to have it stolen so DERIK I put that in your pipe and stick it square up your Hole

John Davis
It depends on what pioneer you guys are talking about too You guys gotta get out of the Department stores (if you can afford it)(not a diss) Pioneer 500 watters are allright but Pioneer Primeir are what you want if you want Pioneer speakers they run at a peak power of 3000 watts with a 800 watt sub woofer in an 84 olds reagency (what I have) if you get out of the car close the door you can feel the ground shake under you Very loud

John davis
Pioneer amps are all right but the watages you need for running bigger speakers are really expensive They are of higer quality after 1000 watts

john davis

john davis
wow that guys got a friend thats a millionare you know milinairs sons usually dont have many friends he probably got that system because he needed friends so he got a system to draw fake a$$ friends from the F!uckin peanut Gallery

john davis
is anybody even in this friggin message board

john davis
Ha HA Ithink ive been talking to my self this whole time

john, your not talkin to yourself, sometimes it just takes a bit for a reply. pioneer's is average with most other run of the mill subs, good, but not the best. now that new comp sub they have comin out,(has 8awg wires,triple stack ferrite magnet, double spiders) that lookin very very very very serious, i can't wait to see'em in person and hear'em. and btw, before you dis someone check their previous posts in some other threads, derik is actually quite knowledgable and pretty cool too, later friend.
p.s. but ya there is a bunch of dumb azz's on this forum!yomaz is one of'em,so is mr.pist

yes, and if you read my first post, you will notice that i stated

"Pioneer has made a lot of advancements lately and their newer stuff is pretty nice"

Pioneer is like MTX, their lower level stuff is less than mediocre, and their higher level stuff is great. also, look at the fact that the magnet is a ferrite magnet and read my post titled "Common Misconception"

Trevor A White
i have a pioneer 12" 800 watt sub with an X1001 and it beats decent. i was wondering if anyone is looking for a system. i have the X1001 amp with the pioneer 12" 800 watt sub(although the box is made for a 12" image dynamic max). It's a custom box with flushmount amp. I was thinking $900 OBO?

ok i know this post is really old but there's something thats really annoying the heck out of me. Jim boom your way of figuring out impeadence is totally wrong. For parallel it 1/r+1/r+1/r...=1/R. So for example if you had 2 4 ohm subs and 1 8 ohm it would be 1/4+1/4+1/8=.625 and then .625=1/R so your total resistance is 1.6 ohms. For series you just add up the ohms. Derek im suprised you didn't catch that you seem to know what your talking bout. maybe you just didn't care. And little Jim boom i hope that math isn't too hard.

Unregistered guest
regarding the argument about poineer an jl audio, if you compare the ratings on a special program on the computor it works out the the poineers for 109 pump more than the JL W3 for 200.

Unregistered guest
The JL are good subs but you can get better value for money. The Poineers were 179 reduced to 109. The only JL which can beat it is 400 pounds. With JL you pay for the brand name.

New member
Username: Glasswolf

Post Number: 440
Registered: 12-2003
having installed both Pioneer's subs, and JL's, the 12W3v2 will crush the Pioneers in real world applications, and the JL has much better deisgn, build, and sound quality.
But if money is the issue, go with a pair of $120 Adire Shivas.
Those are some serious subs.

Unregistered guest

Yo Jake get a better amp dude

Unregistered guest
i am running 2x15 inch jonah lomu fusion subs with a jonah lomu 1211d amp, and 4x fusion fpc65 component speakers with a fusion fp1404 amp, and the speakers just cant keep up with the subs wanted to try jonah lomu speakers for fronts but they would look tacky in my doors as they are not deep enough and i dont want to change the look of theh doors, does anyone have a idea on what speakers i can use that dont have to much depth so that i can keep up ith my subs. help a brother out....
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