Has anybody tried the new THX Yamaha Receivers like the RX-V1400, RX-V2400 and the new RX-Z9?

RJ	Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 00:05 GMT Hi! I recently saw that Yamaha has finallly have the THX Certification. I am a big Yamaha fan, I would like to know from other owners that had a THX receiver from different brands and tell me if this is worth getting. I am planning to get the RX-V1400 that does 110 X 7 and does all the formats as well as THX Surround EX for $800. Please let me know.
CC	Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 17:37 GMT I recently upgraded my Yamaha RX-V2300 for RX-V2400. I am very happy with its performance. I run Boston Acoustics' VR-M series speakers through it. DVD player is Pioneer Elite 45A. The reason that I upgrade my receiver is for the new feature (among others, like 'Night Cinema', 'Accoustic Optimizer') in RX-V1400 and RX-V2400 to up convert the video signals to Component. The signal up conversion is quite good. The THX certification alone is not a good justification for me. Personally, I prefer Yamaha's standards better.
elitefan	Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 19:57 GMT Yamaha fans should be glad they have finally jumped on the THX bandwagon. In order to receive THX certification certain standards have to be met that Yamaha has not done before. The biggest change should be an upgrade of their power supplies which has been a big weakness of previous Yamahas. THX is not the holy grail by any means but meeting THX standards is a real upgrade over what Yamaha has done the last 15 years or so. Maybe, hopefully they can produce amps as powerful and clean as their amps of 20 years ago and more which are vastly superior to the last many years. Yamaha has always had great features[rec out selectors are a great thing] and maybe now their receivers will have enough multichannel power to compete with the other major brands like Marantz, Elite and H/K. If so maybe even a Yamaha detractor like me[who used to love Yamaha] would consider one of their units. This is a wonderful step for Yamaha. By the way CC, what standards are you refering to?
Petteri	Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 09:05 GMT Hi! (CC?) I have 2 questions regarding RX-V1400/-2400: 1.Is it possible to listen (music) in "normal" 2ch stereo mode without DSP processing but with acoustic optimizer on? ('Direct stereo causes the input stereo signal to bypass the DSP AND YPAO circuitry...' That's not what I want). 2. Is it possible to adjust this acoustic optimizer manually? Especially the parametric eq? Without screen? (I only need receiver for sound, no need to circulate video signals through it.)
CC	Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 18:38 GMT Petteri, Answers to your questions: 1. Yes, you can listen in 2 ch Stereo mode with the optimizer on. In rx-v2400/v1400s, the Stereo mode has three choices: 2 ch stereo, straight stereo (without decoding) and 7ch stereo (all speakers fire up). 2. I found the acoustic optimizer helpful. After it collects the data, you can fine tune the data to your preference. For example, the speaker distance measured by the receiver was very accurate. The speaker balance was slightly off. You can pretty much alter all the setting to your liking. You can do the entire setup manually, if you choose to do so. I have also tested the DVD-Audio/SACD through the receiver (rx-v2400). You have to be on multi-channel mode for that (ofcourse the anolog wires (6) hooked up). On this mode the signals are analog and no processing is done, neither does it give you the access to process it. I thought it (receiver and dvd-player) did quite a good job.
Andy Corcoran	Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 13:39 GMT To: All May I please have the benefit of your collected wisdom? I am considering the Yamaha RX-V1400 in order to avoid the use of a separate speaker selection box (such as the Niles SVL-2.) In addition to the usual surround sound setup, I plan to run a pair of JBL in-ceiling speakers in the kitchen and Cambridge outdoor speakers on the deck from the V1400's extra zone. Does this receiver's "Zone 2 and Zone 3 A/B selector" function mean that I can alternate between these 2 sets of speakers, or play both, without an external speaker selector box? As an alternative, can I have the kitchen speakers run off the 2nd set of main speaker outputs and use the rear surround as full spectrum speakers on the deck? Thanks, in advance for your assistance. Andy 10/10/03
Nick Johnson	Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 16:11 GMT To: CC or anyone who knows the answer to my question? Yamaha lists "audio delay" for lip sync in their RX-V2400 and V1400 specs but I can not find a spec for the maximum delay offered. Can CC or anyone tell me what the maximum delay is? I think it probably needs to be 300MS or more to accomodate the video delays created by scan conversion and slower displays like LCD and Plasma but I can not find it published. My other question is how hard is the delay to change? Is it controlled by + and minus - buttons on the remote control or do you have to wade through menus to modify the delay? Thanks
James	Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 00:23 GMT The audio delay for the Yamaha RX-V2400 is on the on screen menu under "audio set" "delay". The range is 0 to 240ms
Ray Bollacker	Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 01:41 GMT Another BIG + for the new Yamahas is the S-Video/Composite Video to Component Video conversion !!Which means that all you have to do is plug in your video sources whether it is via S-Video or even standard Composite video connection and have only ONE output and just rely on the Component Out to your TV, Projector or Big Screen ! This is great so you won't have a million cables bundling up like a plate of spaghetti ! This HAS to be a great feature alone !!!
Anonymous	Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 05:19 GMT I just picked up a RX-V2400. It is awesome. The best receiver I've ever had!
Dale M	Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 00:37 GMT Anon, What speakers are you running with your RX-V2400??
Nino B.	Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 16:44 GMT A certain individual here said something to the effect fo; "This is a great step forward for Yamaha" getting THX certiification... Man; you've got to be kidding !!! Tell me that you're not serious about that comment... The individual also said; "Yamaha has not met THX stndards in the pastt..." . Oh; really now ? With no harm intended friend. Its ASSUMPTIONS like this that finally pushed Yamaha into PAYING for a freaking badge that they REFUSED to pay for in times past ! Especially considering that they're the industry LEADER in DSP/Theater surround technology !!! This is NOT a matter of my personal opinion. Its a matter of FACT ! Dollar for Dollar. Pound for pound. Nobody; and I mean NOBODY does it better than Yamaha ! For at least the past oh; give or take. 5 years or so. Most if not ALL of Yamaha's receivers etc. have been EASILY capable of meeting a THX standard. Whether it was THX select, ultra or ultra 2 . There has been a Yamaha out there to fill the bill people ! And what MANY refuse to listen to is the FACT that THX certification has been used by MANY manufacturers as a SALING point ! Done primarily to help sell a product that was (probably) an exceptional unit to begin with !!! Then turn around to fork over a percentage of the sales to THX/Lucas Films etc... For a product that that they had no part in building ! Yes theres THX processing etc... But what many fail to understand is; there has always been rock-solid amps, speakers and receivers that were top-shelf performers. That THX had absolutely nothing to do with !!! People seem to think that theres a connection between audio and video... But by their "nature" ; they are NOT one in the same !!! Being an industry leader in VIDEO reproduction etc. Does NOT aacount you as being a leader or even an "expert" at AUDIO reproduction !!! Theres absolutely nothing sophisticated or even "high tech" about THX processing... And I HATE their cross-over recommendations and refuse to use their setting suggestions... I know more about audio than most of the people who honestly believe that they're "experts" in this area... I know simple yet HIGHLY effective tricks that will make a mediocre priced system sound GOOD ! And will make a good system sound GREAT ! I mean performance that at or at least damn near AUDIOPHILE quality. Without the greatly exaggerated audiophile price tag ! It can be done people... And for less money than what you may think... I'm 29 years old and i've been in to audio since I was about 18... And i've learned a great deal indeed ! And my knowledge is extensive. And yes people; my experience with audio equipment. Both HOME AND CAR ! Was and is; PERSONAL ! I'm not someone loaded with a bunch of smooth sounding jargon that I learned from some spec-sheet or in some training class. I've personally and intimately delt with many systems. (Not every system though) Would you like to know what the biggest shocker was for me during my learning experience with audio equipment ? It was when I realized and discovered (On my own) that (wattage) even if it was true RMS/continuos sine wave. Was not as nearly important as MANY falsely believe !!! I started developing my own (Theories) if-you-will; regarding the concepts and peoples "approach" to audio... Is there a MINIMUM amount of power needed to drive a speaker EFFECTIVELY ? Absolutely ! But more often than not. Most people don't have a POWER SHORTAGE in their systems ! They usually have a "concept" and component "matching" problem... In many applications; as little as 25 watts RMS (high current) is sufficiant to effectively drive most speakers !!! And drive them surprisingly louder and cleaner than what most would have ever thought possible ! Most peoples approach to what they would consider; "A kick as_ sound system" Usually involves whether they admit it or not. HIGH WATTAGE and semi-exotic to exoctic HIGH DOLLAR speakers... Both of which can be VERY, VERY expensive ! And thats fine; if thats what you want... But keep in mind that you're literally being charged by the watt. And if you cant get the sound that you want with anywhere from 70 to about 100 watts. You're probably not going to get it with 150 to 200 watts either !!! Yet; many are willing to pay 3, 4, 5 times and even greater amounts of money for relatively SMALL gains, considering the cost !!! And its a damn shame too... The diffrence between 100 watts RMS and 200 watts RMS (even if its high current) is only but a mere 3db gain ! Noticable; yes ! But only by a small margin thats not worth mentioning... Yet; most people will sit there and swear by the name of G-D, that their system is NOTICABLY louder etc. Because they replaced or added another amp/receiver thats producing an additional 50 to 100 watts more than their former equipment... But a good SPL meter will reveal otherwise ! Yet they'll argue you to the ground not truely understanding what it is that they're attempting to explain... And aduio manufactures have known this for years and have cashed in on it ! Notice that very, very few manufactures care to mention things such as; speaker sensitivity !!! Ever wondered why ??? Heres some simple math that anyone can comprehind without getting too complex. THE GREATER YOUR SPEAKER SENSITIVITY IS . THE LESS; I REAPEAT . THE LESS WATTAGE YOULL NEED ! Which will effectively do several things ! Some of which are: Relieving unnecessary strain off your receiver/amp. It will EFFECTIVELY increase your sound level... (and noticeably so !) It will give you a bit better control over the speaker cone movement... It will even clean up your sound a little bit... It can possibly save you some cash that can be placed elsewhere in your sound system/home theater as opposed to speanding it and spinning your wheel over some extremely expensive amp that you may not even need ! Every 3db gain in speaker sensitivity level, does the exact same thing as DOUBLING your wattage !!! And few are even aware of this ! Sadly to say; very few people even realize exactly what the technical specs on speakers amps and receivers even mean. So essentially; the numbers are WORTHLESS because most fail to educate themselves about a few simple yet highly effective mathematical and phyisical facts ! And as I said earlier; audio manufacturers know this all too well. And are cashing in on people obsession with, the "Bigger is better" mind set... When often times; this is simply not true... Or at least not to its entirety anyway. Anyway; to make a long story short. I've personally owned brands by the likes of : Harmon/Kardon, Nakamichi, Pioneer, Sony, & Yamaha. As well as others... I currently own one of their "baby" receivers... I took a gamble on it as opposed to one of their more expensive models. (To try it out...) After several days of extensive listening and tweaking the system to sheer perfection. Man oh man ! I have to be honest and confess that it was more than what I expected !!! Its performance is TOP SHELF !!! Regardless of its price... Don't get me wrong though. This unit is by no means in the same ball park as the RX-Z1 or Z9... But for the price; this little motha raises hell !!! Big time ! I have a friend who owns the Kenwood 6060 or 70 I believe. Both of which are THX certified. And he's no new comer at home theater. And even he confessed that his new Kenwood simply doesn't stand up to my little Yamaha . The RX-V540 !!! And he wasn't kidding around either... His Kenwood is no slouch by any means. But the OVERALL performancs of the 540 is just better. Regardless of it not being THX certified ! He's at the point now where he doesnt give a damn about the technical specs anymore... And speaking of Yamahas "weak" power supplies. There again. The power supply often isnt the problem. That can easily be overcome by "balancing" your system and matching it with the BEST speakers for it that you can afford ! Once thats done; you'll probably NEVER have a power supply shortage ! And for those who love saying crap like: "Well, the better amps and receivers don't have this problem..." All i'm going to say is; you're stupid & ignorant ! Do your homework for yourselves people. Dont be afraid to do your own personal research. It will pay off big time in the end ! I don't care what kind of amp or receiver you have, or who builds it. There ARE some speakers out there and configurations that can trip up just about any system ! I know this personally ! You mess around with the hardest working and highest performaning audio equipment out there. Dollar for dollar; its high end car audio hands down ! And you'll understand this soon enough. Just being "good" or even damn good in car audio, simply isnt enough to bring home any meaningfull green. If you push ANY system; and I mean ANY system hard enough. People; something is going to give ! Yamahas power supplies as of the past oh, 3 or 4 years have been exceptional regards of what some have said... Its funny that when receivers by other manufactures that are THX certified. Are tested with ALL channels driven etc. Many of them don't perform any better than Non-THX certified Yamahas !!! But noone ever mentions this ! As soon as a Yamaha is tested with ALL channels driven. And its operating at only lets say; 30 to about 40 watts RMS. EVERYONE HAS SOMETHING JACKED UP TO SAY !!! Even though there will only be a few rare instances where your receiver will ever fire up ALL of its channels at full volume simutaneously !!! Requiring its reserves to be "dumped" straing its amps for power... These cases are very rare. Not to mention that in your home or even in a dedicated theater room. You'll probably never have a NOTICABLE problem like this to begin with. Reason being. When the pros test these systems out. What few realize is. They basically push these units to their limits often under difficult loads.. And last but not least; there are those who like to say that the Yamahas are a bit "bright"... I haven't listend to one Yamaha that was built since the begining of 2003 that I would say was "bright" Yet, noone ever says anything about receivers by other manufactures that often have an (exaggerated midrang) that they like to call; "warm sounding". Even though audio doesnt naturally sound that way. My Nakamichi was the warmest sounding unit that I have ever heard. And I mean fire-place in the middle of winter warm ! But it didn't sound natural when compared with real-life sound... Noone gives Yamaha credit for at least trying to keep the sound "natural" and not exaggerated. (Minus their DSP modes) Keep in mind that most of the time. Even at moderate listening levels. Your speakers are chugging along at only a few mere watts ... So, ask yourself; how many watts do you really NEED to serve the purpose ? Not how many watts you personally want just to say that you have them... Keep in mind that almost ANY amp, even amps in receivers. Can damage or destroy almost any speaker !!! Regardsless of the speakers wattage handling capabilities... This is not a matter of my personal opinion. Its a fact ! Later peeps, & Happy listening.
Al Holland	Posted on Friday, October 24, 2003 - 03:25 GMT Nino, I have to agree with you in part. I do not think that the THX logo is always related to better sound quality. Neither do I think that all of the sound modes on Yahamas relate to better sound. So you can be an industry leader (THX or sound fields) and still not have the best sound. I agree that a fixed cross over (80HZ for THX) is not the best for all or even most applications. Yamaha seems to use a 90HZ cross over which is usually only useful for systems with small mains. A variable cross over is the best (ala Kenwood 6070 among lesser priced units). You mention that power is not important then criticize receivers that do not meet their rated power specs. This should not be a problem for someone who can make any system sound great. The Kenwood 6070 costs less than most Yamahas and the 6070 does produce 92 watts with 6 channels driven. In my experience the best sounding speakers are somewhat inefficient so I do believe that best sound relates to more required power even if it is the fault of the speakers. I have Paradigm Monitor 11's and more power (not necessarily more volume makes them sound better). I have used most every receiver with them and the 6070 drove them harder than other brands. My 200 watt Sherbourn put all of the receivers to shame. I am not the least bit surprised that auto systems receive the most punishment. I never hear anything from them but bass and this will overdrive an amp. I also believe that Yamahas built in 2003 are not bright but this is a very small percentage to be comparing with the Yamahas that have been sold. I call their previous vesions clinical sounding (lifeless) unless you get to their top of the lines. I do not get fatigued from from listening to life's natural sounds but the Yamahas that I have owned became fatigueing after a while. I previously owned a NAK AV10 and I could not describe it as warm sounding. It sounded great but there were other issues that led to my selling it. I certainly do not consider myself an audiophile but I have done an exceptional amount of experimenting in the last 25 or so years. There are those who believe that more power is more volume therefore the system sounds better to them. The more experienced have learned that more power relates to cleaner and more dynamic sound at normal to moderate listening levels and could care less about reaching 100+ db. I do plan to demo a Yamaha 1400 and will keep is as a pre/pro if I am satisfied with it. One last comment. Any amp can damage a speaker. It will almost always be an amp that is under powered for the job and the damage will occur when it distorts and clips. Very few speakers are damaged from lots of clean power.
Sarandon	Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 03:52 GMT AMEN Nino B.!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nino B.	Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 17:50 GMT Al; what you said about the Kenwood producing 92 watts ACD is true... And I enjoyed reading your response. Not bad for someone who doesnt fancy themself as an audiophile my brotha... But you and I do have an "issue" here. What you said to the effect of; "Too much power wont hurt a speaker. But too little power will hurt a speaker especially when it starts to distort and clip..." I'm going to be "understanding" here and go easy my brotha (LOL)... Because in my heart; I sincerely believe that those words are NOT of your own knowledge and genuine time-tested experience ! Al; I think that was a saling point that you've bought into. It sounds like one of the "cassic" statements that many salemen use to sale home audio... (No offense intended torwards you Al) But it does sound this way... I'll be fair and play ball here for a minute... Lets talk electrical current for a moment. Take a light bulb, electrical motor or other electronics of your own choosing. It doesn't matter which; the same laws of physics will apply to them all... Say a unit is designed to operate and utilize oh, 100 watts at 120v 50hz... Is it possible to for this unit to abosrb an additional 50 to 100 watts or even greater and not be damaged or malfunction ??? YES; ABSOLUTELY !!! Will the unit be able to operate at the increased level without frying/burnout ??? Again I say; Yes ! But for how long Al; how long ? You see Al; an increase in wattage isn't what gets a unit into trouble... You can in many cases, double, tripple and even quadropple the input wattage and not get into any trouble at all... You can even squeez a few more volts into it for good measssure. Again; this is fine providing that you keep one thing in check ! Its called "current" ! When you increase the wattage sugnifficantly etc... You had better make damn sure that you DECREASE the current to COMPENSATE/BALANCE the diffrencce !!! Because if you don't. The end result (whenever it comes) will NOT be a laughing matter... Take for example a fuse... Most people wrongfully believe that a fuse functions somehow as a voltage "regulator". By preventing too much juice from frying an electrical unit... However; this isnt the case. A fuse is more or less like a one-way, safety "kill" switch... Whenever "resistance" becomes too high it, naturally produces HEAT ! The heat in turns frys/overloads the fuse causing it to "disconnect" if-you-will... This is done in an attempt to "save" an electrical device... Its a safety feature; nothing more... It doesn't regulate the current as many wrongfully believe. Granted; only so much juice will pass effectively through a given conductors diameter and composition... But the fact of the matter is. A fuse listed for lets say, 40 amps of current at 32 volts. WILL ALLOW FOR A SLIGHTLY STRONGER current to pass through safely , providing that resistance is tolerable for the fuse itself !!! If you doubt this Al. Then ask yourself why is it that when most elctronics are hit with a large enough spike, (regardless of where & how the spike originated) . Why is it that most of these units will have a shortened life span or, just burn out all togethor, upon the hit... And much of the time; the FUSE HAD NOT BLOWN OUT ??? Do the math... Its not that hard to figure out ! This has even occured with units where good supressors (upwards of $100 + ) were in use !!! The exact same thing is true when using many amplifiers and receivers with speakers... Too little power can cause burnout ! Especially with subs and woofers... As too little power will not allow the cone to travel far enough to move enough air pass the coils, to keep them cool. This will produce internal heat build up. Of which; DISTORTTION is a by-product of heat build as heat naturally creates RESISTANCE & vice-versa... But theres something that few are even aware of. And its called; OVERTAXING !!! Yes Al; there is such a thing as pushing a speaker beyond its limitations. If this were not so Al; they would have never started developing speakers. With as much as 4 INCHES of travel space, to prevent them from bottoming out !!! As too much power/current will thrust the speaker cone forwrd and back rapidly & violently ! Having limited travel space bottoming out producing internal heat build and RESISTANCE ! At which rate, would either A: eventually fry or serverely damage the speaker. Or B: Completely thrust the entire voice-coil out of the freakin magnet pole !!! Either way; whether it comes instantly or over a period of time. It spells a death sentence for the speaker Al... Yes; there are other factors involved. I wont go there because of the details. All i'm saying is; there is such a thing as too much power !!! Ever heard of "OVERKILL" ? Perhaps you have never been to a car show where top of the line head units, speakers and amps were being utilized. And at the height of what "WAS", a masterfull performance. Something melted down !!! Usually a top-of-the-line COMPETITION series speaker !!! That will whip the stink off of the majority of home audio speakers any day of the week !!! These bad boys are designed to specifically handle 500, 1000 even 1500 watts true RMS power !!! Yet; many of them are destroyed by very well designed top shelf amps that ocassionally manage to blow the speaker clear ot of the magnet ! Usually delivering only a fraction of juice that the speaker is designed to utilized !!! THERE ARE VERY REAL PHYSICS INVOLVED HERE PEOPLE ! And it often doesn't show up in the form of technical specs !!! I watched in amazment one day, as a Yamaha receiver about 4 years ago. Literally pushed a speaker clear out of the magnet . Rendering the speaker USELESS as a result ! The speaker was made by Eosone !!! Top of the line speakers; no ! But those bad boys weren't chopped liver either ! And as for the "sound" of diffrent amps & receivers is concerened. Keep in mind that we all do NOT hear exactly the same Al... We just don't. Neither do all amps and receivers sound exactly the same !!! Sometimes people will rate one unit higher than another simply because they personally like its sound etc... (And theres nothing wrong with that) Besides; its your money. Spend it as you please... Its your ears; and if it sounds good to YOU; to hell with the rest. Because you're the one whos going to be listening to it ! Duh !!! However: its really not fair or honest to rate one system higher and another lower simply because you dont personally like its sound !!! Sometimes people; different doesnt mean "better". Sometimes difference means exactly that ... Its "different"; not ncessarily "better"... A unit should be judged on its over-all performance, useability, build quality, features as well as the best possible saound that it delivers for its price point !!! Everything else is secondary, and more often than not; a matter of PERSONAL, usually shallow, untested & extensively researched OPINIONS ! Happy listening peeps... Thanks for the response Al. P.S Can more power translate into "cleaner" better sound ? Yes !!! Though this isnt always the case...
elitefan	Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 19:00 GMT Nino, You are certainly full of yourself aren't you. You know... Give me a break. I stand behind everything I said about Yamaha's in my previous posting and if you want to live in your selective dream world go ahead. I di not make up the fact the Yamaha's have had poor measured multi-channel ratings. It's a fact man; just read any review that gives you the specs. They are the leader in gimmicky dsp modes and if that is what you like then that's fine. Remember my experience with Yamaha is longer than your age but I guess at 29 your think you know what a 25 year old Yamaha sounds like. To bad they can't reproduce that sound today. You have no understanding at all of what THX standards are or you would not make such foolish comments. Yamaha likes to do their own thing and thats fine but it sure is not what I would want or recommend.
me	Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 19:10 GMT KENWOOD ?????? YAMAHA ??????? YUK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sarandon	Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 00:03 GMT hey elitefan i have a question for you. no this is not to piss you off or think anything less of me when i ask you this question. if Yamaha had went back to the same sounds back in the late 70's and early 80's with today's technology, you would buy one and refer it to somebody else. And also have you tried out the thx yamaha receivers (rx-v1400 and the rx-v2400). please give me your thoughts.
Dick Hertz	Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 01:32 GMT why you so mad NinoB???
GAUS	Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 01:58 GMT Nino You are such an ignorant of electronics and electricity that you should SHUT UP. 90 % of your craps is wrong. Nobody should pay attention to any of his comments!
elitefan	Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 13:57 GMT Sarandon, I would love to buy a Yamaha if the sound quality was on par with others etc as I love the input packages, rec out selector etc. My first dolby digital unit was the Yamaha 992 and I had to take it back as it sounded awful and I have not heard much improvement since. I have heard the 2400 and it just doesn't do it for me.
sarandon	Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 16:23 GMT so it still sound bad to you or what?
Gal	Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 17:14 GMT Nino, and to all. There is NO such thing as RMS Power (watts)! There is only RMS voltage and RMS current. RMS - is a mathematical abbreviation for Root Mean Square. Now, overpowering your speakers may do damage if like "crazy" Nino said the speaker just runs out of travel room but that's actually mainly physical damage (the cone will teak up) but in order to actually burn out your speaker buy overpowering you will need at least 2 the power it is meant to handle. You are far more likely to damage your speakers and your receiver by mismatching impedance in a way that you are pushing too much current into your speakers (low impedance speakers with amps designed for higher) - this way they will burn out for sure! it wont be immediate but it will come soon. I know that people do this and it works fine even for years, the reason for that is that 99% percent of the time you are using just half of the actual power of your receiver and by doing that you are feeding less voltage and current to your speakers. If you would use lets say 80% of your receivers power for even 5-6 hours straight it's bye bye speakers and probably receiver as well - Luck for us there are protection circuits to prevent us from doing this. Good luck
elitefan	Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 18:44 GMT Sarandon, Yes. Yamaha's sound thin and hollow to me. I like a more full bodied sound like Elite or Marantz. Yamaha with PSB or Paradigm might be tolerable but I have heard the latter and still feel you can do much better. We all hear differently so this is just my opinion of course. I do love the features on Yamahas but not the sound. If you like them by all means buy them.
Gal	Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 21:13 GMT "99% percent of the time you are using just half of the actual power of your receiver and by doing that you are feeding less voltage and current to your speakers" Just one correction - The voltage will allways be the same It's just the current that will change.
Sarandon	Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 23:23 GMT elitefan thank you very much for the info. but now i just came from fry's electronics here in Dallas, Texas and i saw a Onkyo THX receiver. the model number is TX-SR800 for 599.90. what do you think about that elitefan?
elitefan	Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 14:01 GMT Sarandon, I have always liked Onkyo's. I have had two in the past. The 800 for $599 is a very good deal. It has been replaced by the 801 which has the netlink feature but otherwise the same. If I did not have my Elite 45 I would have bought the 800 for it's inputs and buildquality. Onkyo is one of the few that still provides an adequate amount of inputs necessary for my system. If you are thinking about a change this seems like a good deal.
Al Holland	Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 14:40 GMT Nino, I was dabbling in home and auto electronics when you were born. So, like elitefan, I do know how much better the 20-25 year old Yamahas sound. Not that it matters to anyone else but I think that they were better than any current receiver when comparing 2 channel sounds. I actually contribute this to the fact that we did not have CD's and Perhaps I prefer the sound of LP's better. Then there are those who prefer the tube amps over receivers or solid state amps. All of this is not important. What matters is that you choose what sounds best to you. Perhaps I did not make my point clear on too much power. I did not mean to imply that one can't drive anything beyond it's limits. Let's say that you have a speaker designed to operate at 100 watts (this is supposed to be continuous power and not peak power). A 200 watt amp can easily drive this speaker (at reasonable sound levels) without harming it. Now take a 35 watt amp and try to get the maximum SPL from that speaker without damaging it. I am not an electrical engineer but I believe that when you push the lower wattage amp to it's limits and cause it to clip then you cause the speaker cone to perform erattically and destroy it. Someone please correct me if I am wrong but aren't spikes created when an amp starts clipping. You are correct about one thing. I have never attended a car show audio competition. I find nothing wrong with them but I do not find pleasure in hearing all of that booming. I can get a similar sound and more pleasure on a firing range. I never rated or recommended any system in my previous post. I never said that I did not like Yamaha. I only stated how they sound to me. In fact I am considering one. I do, however, believe that you were highly recommending Yamaha. Agreed, different is not better. Yamaha is different with all of it's DSP modes but I certainly do not consider them to make it better. My first priority is sound. Features are secondary. I have probably tested and researched in much greater depth than most. This is the fun part but over the many years I have learned to let my ears be the judge regardless of what the manufacturers advertise or what the professional reviews say about a product. PS: the discussions are another great part of this hobby.
Anonymous	Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 15:39 GMT I could use some "sound" advice.... I believe I have focused my search to a purchase of a RXV1400 or a RXV2400. What is the major difference besides the power output and the RS232 connection? I have searched for a comparison chart and not found anything in detail (even the Yamaha web site is shy on this). Does the RS232 and 10W power really add that much cost?
AdamT	Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 17:10 GMT Heh, I have a 23 yr. old Onkyo stereo receiver, 40 watts, that still sounds better than my 4 yr. old Carver surround receiver. Plays louder too, notwithstanding the Carver's allegedly higher wattage. That Onkyo is a tank. True story: about 15 yrs. ago I came home from work and discovered my roof was leaking. In fact water was pouring into the grill of the Onkyo. I dumped the water out, let it air dry for a week, and it was no worse for the wear!
Nino B.	Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 05:12 GMT Perhaps I didn't make mayself clear... Thats always possible... For some here; I see that you can't teach an "old dog" new tricks... For others; I think its cute that you try and teach me about power etc... All of your points are well taken guys. And to be honest with you; I really don't have a problem with it. And for the most part; I really don't give a rats behind. And to a certain individual here that i'm going to call "Mr.Techospec"... Hommie; everything doesn't always boil down to numbers man... ALL A/V manufacturers have their positives as well as negatives, if the truth has to be told about it... "GIMMICK" ??? Most of you can't spot the gimmicks that so many of us buy into on a DAILY basis; yet, you think that you're quit the "experts"... Listen up "father-time"; you've got to be out of you freakin mind for daring to be suggestive about audio equipment thats older than I am !!! ARE YOU STUPID OR WHAT ??? Tell me that you're not serious !!! A comparison with something oh, 5 to 10 years ago maybe... BUT 30 YEARS AGO !!! Whatever the heck you're smoking; its got you're brain chokin... Dude; you can not be for real... Why don't you spend more time and consentration balancing yourself. Considering that you have one foot in the grave, and the other on a banana peel... Were there excellent units back then ? Sure !!! Duh... But until your fossilized _ss slips on that peel. Don't you ever again make such a comparison ! You guys haven't any idea of who you're actually dealing with. (not that its a must) But its cool though; I actually prefer it this way... Tell me; how much researching did you guys have to do before you "one upped" me ? Or at least you think anyway... Al; nice try, but you're going to have to dig a lot deeper than that... A lot deeper !!! I will be honest with you though Al... The primary "difference" in sound quality with units 25+ years ago and today's. Has a whole lot to do with the transition form LP analog, to todays ever evolving CD digital... Just for the record for those of you here you think that i'm too young to know anything worth while... I'm personally familar with several of the older receivers & amps that are about oh; 30 to 40 years old... When I was a teen; I OWNED ONE MYSELF !!! With a pair of some of the badest monitors around at the time... And i'l be honest. Ok elders; you got me on one thing... I can't lie; that mutha _ucka sounded GOOD ! Real good !!! But I cant sit hear and lie to myself people. Since you guys are big on numbers. Obviously !!! Quick to tell me about the all channels driven test etc. Like the _cuk you actually believe that i'm ignorant of those things... I've probably forgotten more than most of you will ever know. At least in audio reproduction anyway ! All most of you can do, is tell me sh_t based off the fragmented, biased work of others... If everyone hear had about $20,000 to about $30,000 to burn. And we went head to head in home-theater building. Toe to toe, blow for blow... With NO out side assistance whatsoever. Using OUR own personal knowledge. You cats would fall dead from a heart attack just trying to keep pace with the hell that i'd rain on your _sses... And i'll have change to spare for your emergency room co-pays ! LOL; and the bad part is; you guys think that i'm bluffing... And i'm not ! "99% of the time, you're only using about half of your receivers power....." Sure; maybe you are. Thats funny; I thought most of the time, receivers and amps are operating at only a few watts or so... Listening to ANY system at half power would eventually become fatiging... Let me guess; i'm wrong about that too, right ? Hey "elitefan"... Has anyone ever told you why it is, that the vast majority of people who sale P-Elite, wont buy the stuff themselves ? (The ones that are in the know) Don't bother to answer that... I'm sure they can't afford it; right ? Like I said; a bunch of Techophiles and Specophiles... Giving advise to a true audiophile... Hey Adam; say that to Physicist Mr. Bob Carver... He'll probably laugh in your face and then tell you what the hell you're doing wrong making a comment as such... You guys like SPECS so damn much. Maybe I should stoop down and start speaking a language that you can comprehind. Tell me guys; were the specs on equipment 20 to 30 years ago superior or inferior to todays equipment on AVERAGE ? Next; how many watts do most systems need MINIMUM, to drive most loads effectively. (not necessarily at concert levels though) I'm only talking about enough power for MOST home applications... Surely this isn't too hard for spec & techophiles such as yourself... You guys know a little bit; sure ! But its pretty clear to me that theres quite a bit that you guys really don't know... And if time and money would allow. I'D BE ALL TOO WILLING TO COME TO ANYONES HOUSE TO GIVE YOU ONE HELL OF A DEMO !!! Its been fun. Keep in mind that no 2 persons hear exactlt the same... Disliking a certain sound, doesn't mean that the sound was "bad". And as far as "thin" sound goes, well. That can be due to SEVERAL things... I know for a fact that I can take a receiver from about $400 to about $800 AND YOU GUYS CAN LITERALLY PAY double the amount. And spend a week or two playing catch-up... As far as watts are concernd. I have a question to everyone here... HOW MANY FREAKIN WATTS DO YOU NEED ??? Not only that. Who in living hell made you fossils believe that "BIG POWER" is the holy of holies and final word in audio... Go put your BIG watts up against as little as 10 to 20 watts from a tube amp morans ! You'll be shocked ! And for the MASTER ELECTRICIAN here... I don't know who or where you got your info. from. But did it ever occur to you that if volts can be changed. Watts can be changed also... As a matter of fact. Watts, volts and amps, or what you call; "current". All can be changed. If there was NO change whatsoever; it would be impossible to increase or decrease volume. Forcing you to sustain a CONSTANT volume... You ought to have one big, fat _ss electric bill ever month. Or are you so stupid as to think that when you see dB up or down in your display windows. You assume that you're NOT changing the output voltage/watts/current of your receiver/amp... Gal: I'm not the one who coined or applied the term "RMS" . When audio equipment is supposedly tested... The term "RMS" is one of several terms that is used... So please, don't try to school on something that I know better than you. "no such thing as RMS watts..." Oh; really ? generally speaking Gal. The voltage output of the extreme majority of receivers and amps. Regardless of their output ratings. Is typically so damn freakin low. They really can't be accurately measured in volts... Or are you so stupid that you think that its possible to power a 100 watt light-bulb . With a 100 watt amp ??? Most units are so freakin weak that their total system power output at max. Wont even generate 1hp !!! Imagine how weak that really is Gal ! Most of them wont even generate 1hp even if it was being applied mechanically !!! Most amps are so freakin weak that they cant even fire up a 5 watt light bulb !!! Sure; I understand that its a musical signal. But its still ELECTRICAL nonetheless ! Perhaps you were thinking of electrical energy apart from audio equipment, when you tried to school me... Or perhaps you, like so many others believe that watts, voltage and amps are one in the same... Guess what Gal ? THEYRE NOT !!! Question oh brainiac Gal: What would have to be done to make a light bulb using 120v 60hz at about 100 just a bright as a bulb 200 or even 300 watts ??? This is an easy question Gal... It shouldn't take you but mere seconds to answers it. I wont even bother you with the real stuff. Its been fun peeps. Ignorance is bliss; later...
Jeff Plous	Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 05:44 GMT Well Ignorance surely is bliss I guess.... Theres far too much BS goin on in there to discern. Can a moderator please ban this guy? He is obviously just someone that unknowing newbies may listen to and be audio-crippled for life...
elitefan	Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 14:08 GMT As to Nino saying we don't know who we are dealing with I think we can all tell by his lunatic ranting that we are dealing with a completely psychotic person with an incredibly inflated opinion of himself. What a nut!
Johnny	Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 14:13 GMT Nino, If you are going to take up that much space on the board, at least say something meaningful. The only thing you tried to do in your whole rant was to prove how much you knew and how little all of us knew. Is it nice up on top where you are?
Gal	Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 17:52 GMT NinoB - BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Yes I do want to "school" you but I don't think it is possible. The only thing that is ever getting increased\decreased is the "Current"- amps! the way it is being done is by DC voltage triggering. Listen Nino, I don't know who you are and like you I don't give a ...., what I do know is that I have my BSC in electronics and what I am saying are facts. You are 100% correct that you are mostly using only a few watts in general listening, but that is not the situation in multi-channel and high peaks in movies - and considering what you have said as well most receivers don't generate as much as the specs sheet. Buy reading your remarks on an amp not being able to turn on a light-bulb shows me exactly how much you know. You see Nino, the reason for that is that a light bulb will mostly be designed to work on a 120V or 230V sinus or whatever source that also needs to be able to provide the bulb with the wattage it consumes - An amp designed for audio puts out a very low voltage in theory if you bring a light bulb designed for the voltage output from your amp then it will work. Anyway Nino - have fun and good luck.
Gal	Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 17:53 GMT *The change in the current(amper) brings to the change in wattage.
Gal	Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 18:04 GMT I want to ask you something: If you take a Zener diode with a Vz=6v and you feed it with a DC source starting from 6 going to 30 volts, will the output voltage after the diode change?? - NO WAY Now take a resistor to act as your load and start measuring again from 6-30 volts - The current will change on the load and the power(watts) will change as well but the voltage will stay the same! - You are limited with how low or how high of a load you can apply to this circuit.
AV 007	Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 03:27 GMT Gheesh!!!!!!! What was a intersting question seems to have turned into a so called knowledge pissing match by a "certain party".. Sad that they feel compeled to bash others to feel the supurior. Posting in a constructive way for others less knowledable is always helpfull. This crap serves no one with anything usefull. Don't belive anyone posting in the "very begining of the thread" was looking for a knowledge challange! I personally could really care less. Oh golly let me add: Whooo, I've been into High End Audio for over 30+ years, even designing & building many of my own subs, speakers & amps, Big Fricken Deal!!! So please lets go back to the Yammi RXV-1400/2400 thread...... =========> Has anyone picked up either of these models (as of late), and if so whats your over all opinon of the unit?? Likes, dislikes, auto cali, up-conversion, etc? Also, if you don't mind saying, what did you give for it. =========> I ask this because of such a large varience in pricing "on the internet" I've seen as of late. Regards AV 007
louis	Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 06:00 GMT Anyone know where can i buy cheaper online? for RX-V1400 or RX-V2400 or Denon AVR-3803 or Onkyo-TXSR701???
Mancussa F.	Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 06:07 GMT Where is the best website to shop online and cheap for Home theater system? Thnaks for your information and help.
James	Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 07:36 GMT RJ, I have used the Yamaha RX-V1400 as a pre/pro for exactly 35 days. I bought it b/c of its advertised video up conversion since my plasma has only 1 component video input. What I have experience is that there are some major flickering on some channels. I upgrades cables for better insulation, got power conditioner, upgrade my cable service from analog to digital, have the cable guy come out to measure signal strength, had a TV running side by side w/ my plasma through Y splitter on those few flickering channel. A month went by, and we went through all the process of elimination and couldn't figure what it was until we bypass the unit and run the S-video up into the plasma. Those channels that used to flicker now no longer flickers. I contact Yamaha, which is few miles from me, and now Yamaha is taking my info, and I have to wait for their engineers to figure out the next correct engineering method before they would rule it as a defective unit. I sold my old Yamaha to upgrade to this Yamaha due to the video up conversion. Now my set up is the same as with the old one, i.e. by pass the unit with no video up conversion. It could be a bug since the feature of up conversion is so new, or it could be a defective unit. I have posted my issue on other forums, and I have gotten few responses back stating that their setup was similar to mine due to limited video inputs on their TV or plasma, and they have not experienced any thing similar to mine. B/c I pass the 30 refund policy, I now have 11 months and few days left for Yamaha to figure out before it could be ruled as a possible defective unit. Quick replacement for quick test to see whether it was truly an issue of defective uniy is not the answer. If they need the a huge sampling number to do a statistical test to determine whether it was a defective unit or bug, why not let me part of that number? How much more do I need to wait before others report similar problems? I went back to my long-distant "local" dealer, and I was suggested to went go through bunch of tests to determine what the problem was since they couldn't be at my house to truly look at the setup to determine the problem as I don't live so closed to them. I asked them back how many more ways can I either explain or draw diagrams to describe my current setup so that they can understand my setup. For example, if you were asked to describe your setup, how many circuit diagrams can you draw to transmit the idea to your local dealer that this is your current setup? At this point, I can't tell any one what the problem is since I do not have second unit to test. One thing I know is the responsiveness to the customer's need and frustration from Yamaha is not very quick and dynamic. Yamaha is great unit, but customer service is another issue. Try to contact the tech service number and see how long you will be on hold for. Try to call a tech support number at headquarter between 12-1 Pacific Time to see if you will hear a message that they are closed for lunch hour. I expect to hear this from a government courthouse, but from a free enterprise capitalist corporation like Yamaha is unbelievable. It costs lots of money to attract a visitor to a brand and product. It costs even more to convert such visitor into a purchaser. In addition, it also cost moolar to keep the customer loyal because for most business, 60% of the revenue comes from loyal customer. For example look at the automobile industry, Toyota or Mercedes would say that huge number of annual revenue come from loyal customer. I'm sure that Maytag or Sony would say the same. Doesn't marketing campaign "Customer is always right" or "Customer is number one" means any thing any more? I am just dumbfounded. I am so frustrated that I have to steam my vent, but here is the bottom line. I can't tell you guys what is wrong with my unit. If Yamaha lends me another unit, I can determine quickly whether or not my current unit is defective. Other than that, it could be a bug problem since such conversion feature is so new. It seems that neither the Yamaha nor the dealer can help me since none can see my setup, and neither one would dare to come out to see my setup. I can't ask all those interested in the Yamaha to buy one to possibly help me build a statistical data of consumers reporting the same problem b/c I won't be able to sleep at night. What I have heard is that starting mid Dec, Yamaha will ship out new unit of RX-V1400 and higher end models with the new built-in Dolby Prologic IIXi for 7 discrete channels. If you can wait, wait. If you can't wait, don't. If customer service is important, rethink. If you want to risk, gamble. I'll keep you posted if I have more news. Sorry guys for venting, but it is somewhat not easy to share my experience regarding the Yamaha, but RX-V1400 should be a great product if all advertised features work.
Al Holland	Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 10:26 GMT James, I recently looked at the 1400 at my local Tweeter store. I inquired about the up conversion and was told that some buyers had experienced problems because there were some compatibility issues between the 1400 and some brands of TV's ( specifice brands were not mentioned). I have a friend who works there and he was out so I did not pay close attention to the other salesman. I will talk to my friend and respond back to you. I had planned to buy a 1400 to use strictly as a pre/pro because of the auto equalizer. I listened on Klipsch Ref 5's and Boston towers. I really liked the Yamaha/Boston combo but it was too thin with the Klipsch. I think that it would have matched my Paradigm Monitor 11's also but I was also wanting to replace them with Klipsch RF-35's so I did not buy. I have since bought the RF-35's, RC-35 and RS-35's. I am using them with my Rotel/Sherbourne and they are not bright or thin. Matched with warmer speakers I believe that the 1400 or 2400 would be excellent. I will probably bring one home for demo because I believe that the Sherbourn amps will keep the Klipsch sounding fuller than the Yamaha amps.
Kyle M.	Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 20:28 GMT Hey guys, I always buy my receivers online at ebay, you get the best deals there and they are brand new. So far I have bought the Yamaha RX-V995 about 3 years ago and now I bought the Yamaha RX-V2400 just a couple of days ago for about 675$, not bad. I'll let you know how this one is, if its anything like the 995 then it will be good!
Hawk	Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 05:13 GMT Al Holland: I spent part of yesterday looking at some nice components at a store who believed I have more money to spend than I actually do (my youngest now needs braces. Sigh!). In any event, he was demo'ing some Tannoy Iris speakers driven by a Sherbourne pre/pro and amp which sounded very nice. I thought of you since you told me yo have the Sherbourne amp. Then I got to play around with the pre/pro, experimenting with the surround modes and volume and I suddenly realized how much this Sherbourne pre-pro looked just like the Outlaw 950. Only difference I could see besides the name on the front was that it had a black faceplate rather than the industrial grey of the Outlaw. So, I did a little checking late last night on the internet and I learned, in fact, that they are identical! Seems they are made in the very same plant in China. Sherbourne sells through dealers and Outlaw is, of course, "factory" direct. I know you are looking at a Yamaha receiver to act as a pre/pro for your Sherbourne amp. Perhaps you should consider the Outlaw 950 at $795--certainly its cost would be no more than the cost of a Yamaha receiver. Thought you might be interested.
G-Man	Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 05:43 GMT " I have a friend who owns the Kenwood 6060 or 70 I believe. Both of which are THX certified. And he's no new comer at home theater. And even he confessed that his new Kenwood simply doesn't stand up to my little Yamaha . The RX-V540 !!! And he wasn't kidding around either..." Did he bring his Kenwood over to your house and hook it up to your speakers and then have a 3rd disinterested party match the Kenwood volume and the Yamaha volume to within 0.15 db's? Did he then switch the receivers with an ABX switch so neither of you knew which was playing? If the above didn't occur--your statement is meaningless.
Al Holland	Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 13:12 GMT Hawk, I really appreciate you thinking of me. I believe that the pre/pro and amps from Outlaw and Sherbourn are of the same basic design and built in the same factories. I have read an article that compared them. Naturally, Sherbourne claims to be a little better ( I do not know this to be factual). I do know that I called Sherbourne and talked to Ron Fone (one of the owners). He is exceptionally nice and always takes time to discuss products when you call. Try that with the mass producing companies. I bought the Sherbourn without ever hearing one. Although they are retailed no one stocks them near me. I would normally never do this, however, this is one piece of gear that I have never wanted to part with. I am very satisfied with my Rotel pre/pro but it would be enjoyable to try the Outlaw 950. My main interest in the 1400 was the YPPO (or whatever it is called). I have recently bought the Klipsch Reference 35 system (excluding sub). This has improved my drop outs in certain frequencies. I now need to concentrate on room accoustics. Thanks again.
Al Holland	Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 13:22 GMT G-Man, Good to see you defending the 6070. I have owned the 6070 and the Yamaha RXV-1. I used them with Paradigm Monitor 11's. Anyone who has used these speakers will know that their sound improves with power. The 6070 definitely got more bass from them. I have turned the sub off and friends did not realize this until they were told. I have also used other Yamaha's and all of them had distortion in the sub output. I read an article in one mag that showed this same high distortion. Although it is not perfedt, I do not think that the 6070 gets the credit that it deserves.
James	Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 18:19 GMT Al, Thank you for looking into my problem. When I contacted the Yamaha rep named Roby, he told me that he had took reports from three other customers, who experienced similar problem, but not exactly the same as mine. Any how, talked to the tech guy from the dealer, which I bought the unit, he explained to me about synn being stabilized and not stabilized. Still not quite sure what all that means since signals from cable are strong. He was trying to get me to try all different combo. However, I was willing to try all different possible combo setup to quickly resolve my problem. So it boils down to three different scenarios. If I run my cable box into my VCR (typical recording setup) and then into my Yammie, some channels on flicker on TV. If I bypass the receiver, i.e. to run the video from VCR upto TV, all channels work fine. On the other hand, if I bypass the VCR by running the cable into the Yammie and then into the TV, all channels work fine. I guess that it's time for me to look into Tivo. Can't have my cake and eat it too, I suppose. Overall, I love the YPAO feature from VX-V1400 as I know that you have asked about it. It helps my HT setup sound better and quicker. I don't know how much more value a SPL meter can add. I suppose it depends on the user as well. In my case, I prefer the YPAO since I have not played with the SPL meter.
G-Man	Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 23:00 GMT Al-- My point wasn't in so much defending the Kenwood 6070, but in saying it is very much like all other similarly priced THX Select receivers--(they are all almost comodities). The main points of differentiation are the remotes, various different DSP's (which I rarely use) and other things that rarely effect performance. Most of the receivers have the same DTS and Dolby formats (meaning the same chips), buy the same DAC's (even cheap DAC's are even excellent now). Most of the receivers in the $400-$800 range do a fine job on most all 8 ohm speaker systems and in listening rooms no larger than 2,000 sq feet. The big difference in performance will be the speakers and how well they are balanced with the listening environment. It seems that Yamaha has implemented a somewhat similar speaker calibration unit on some of their receivers--like the Pioneer Elite MCCAC. Hopefully it works as well. And here's ann odd blurb from above-- "Hey "elitefan"... Has anyone ever told you why it is, that the vast majority of people who sale P-Elite, wont buy the stuff themselves ? (The ones that are in the know) Don't bother to answer that... I'm sure they can't afford it; right ? " Jeez--I didn't know JD Power has done research on what salespeople buy. Not that I care what salespeople buy. I care what acoustical and electrical engineers buy and what their opinions are. Most retailers and salon audio dealers push expensive wire and cable and ludicrous Tice and Richard Grey line conditioners. Their knowledge and beliefs are worse than my deceased grandma's audio understanding.
G-Man	Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 23:19 GMT As far as buying relatively inexpensive receivers I opt for getting those with the best power supplies. I am bored by DSP's. But I do like a good remote--as you use them alot. My fave receiver under $600 is the OutlawAudio 1050 at $499. Great power supply, excellent remote--good bass management--and if it had Dolby Prologic II it would make buying any other receiver under $800 pointless. Other than that the NAD are good too in power supplies--the over-priced Arcam's are good, and the more upscale Rotel's. Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon, HK, Marantz, Pioneer Elite, etc. all build very good power supplies in their upscale models--particularly the Denon 5803 and the Pioneer Elite 47TX and the 49tx or 49txi. Now there are certain features that have migrated down from the upscale models--and there are some features that some may prefer in the $400-$00. range. These are all legitimate reasons to buy your preferred receiver, as long as you are aware that they can drive your speakers to as loud as you want to listen to them without clipping or causing audible distortion. Firewire has migrated down from the 49txi to thye 55txi. This is a great benefit if you want to get the 47avi or the new 59avi dvd player. I am sure other companies have other less dramatic but important features that have migratedc down in price too. Anyway---just a few thoughts
sarandon	Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 00:04 GMT hey hawk or elitefan what speakers with warm sound would you recomend for the rx-v2400?
Hawk	Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 06:27 GMT Paradigm and PSB.
Anonymous	Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 07:22 GMT Re : Al Holland on Oct 23 2003. Can someone explain to me what he meant by 80HZ/90HZ cross over in the amp. I thought that cross over only applies to speakers.
elitefan	Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 13:57 GMT I second Hawk on Paradigm and PSB. Only lines I am familiar with that I would consider with Yamaha.
Ricky	Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 17:03 GMT I have beeen a yamaha fan for years.currently I own dsp-az1[rx-z1 us model] and this is the best pre-amp I have ever used.I hope to upgrade it this month when dsp-z9 hits the stores.My question is that this new reciever has thx ultra 2 badge which means nothing to human ears.I have owned thx select recievers before and I have visited and heard those so called thx selected listening rooms. certainly It makes no any difference.It sounds far better without thx. so it is a shame that yamaha finally agreed with thx which pushes the price way above
NW	Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 19:39 GMT I have yamaha rx-v850,dahlquist DQ-18, energy ECC-1, and boston acoutics hd-5 speakers which I bought 10 years ago. Now, I am thinking to upgrade my yamaha receiver since I purchased sony KF-60XBR800 LCD projection TV early this year. I like the YPAO feature in RX-V1400 except the componet video monitor out signal only 60 MHz comparing with DENON 2803,3803 (100 MHz). If I upgrade a new receiver(RX-v1400,etc), do I also need to upgrade the center and surrounding speakers (I want to keep my DQ-18 speakers though,). Any recommendaton is appreciated. Also, I am looking for a subwoofer too. Thanks.
G-Man	Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 21:58 GMT NW--This is where firewire and DVI (or HDMI) come to the fore. If you connect a dvd player with firewire or DVi (HDMI) to a video monitor that has DVI and/or firewire capability you get the best and cleanest connection--and it is with only one wire. Of course you can still get solid performance with standard 6 cable analog component connections. Does the Sony projector have DVI and or firewire connections? Upgrading your receiver has little to fo with having to upgrade your speakers. Upgrade your speakers if you want better sound, but you need to state your room size and your budget for anyone to give you a somewhat educated response. Also, if you buy 4 ohm speakers it will limit what receiver you buy if you want to get optimum performance. There are a number of good subwoofers from PSB, HSU, Infinity with the RABOS System, SVS, Paradigm, etc. What you should buy depends on your room size and your budget. Make sure your receiver and/or your dvd player has very good bass management--particularly if you are going to be playing SACD/DVD-Audio.
NW	Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 23:09 GMT G-Man--Yes, Sony projector have DVI connection. For 480P signal, does it matter between 60KHz vs 100KHz when using component switches provided by either RX-V1400 or AVR-2803. This is the family room with kitchen(great room), however, the room size is 10'x15'(if i only consider the sitting area), 30'x15'(include kitchen area), 12'(between tv,front speakers and sofa), the front speakers is put next to TV(65'' apart, due to limitation on media area, and the media area is next to side wall). I know the fact that listering/viewing area is NOT perfect at all. My budget for the receiver is around $800. Also, my DQ-18 is 4 ohm speakers with high sensitivity (91 or 93). Thanks for your help.
Al Holland	Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 01:10 GMT Anonymous, you asked: Re : Al Holland on Oct 23 2003. Can someone explain to me what he meant by 80HZ/90HZ cross over in the amp. I thought that cross over only applies to speakers. --------------------------------------------- Actually the amp does not have a crossover. The processor either has a fixed or variable output to the subwoofer. This is what I was referring to. A variable output is better because it allows you to adjust compensate for the capabilities of you main (left and right) speakers.
Al Holland	Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 01:13 GMT G-Man, I have used both component and DVI connections. I have not found DVI to be any better than component connections. It is however, more convenient by just using a single wire. Only problem is that I do not know of any receivers or pre/pro's with DVI capability.
G-Man	Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 01:23 GMT Anonymous--- What is meant by a crossover of 80Hz, 90 Hz, 100 Hz or whatever does have to do with speakers. What people in this forum usually mean by setting a crossover at say 80 HZ is that when using a subwoofer in your 5.1 (or 6.1 or 7.1) surround speaker system it is often wise to set the subwoofer frequency crossover (can usually be done in the subwoofer and/or the receiver in the speaker menu set-up section) to 80 HZ, depending on the speakers you have. If you have an excellent self-powered subwoofer that goes down to 20-25 HZ it is wise to crossover your other speakers at 80HZ so that the difficult job of playing the low frequencies falls on the subwoofer. This is particularly true when your speakers are of the bookshelf variety. If they are bookshelves that don't go down accurately below 100HZ, it is wise to set the sub crossover at 100HZ--or even 110-120Hz. If your bookshelves go down to 50-60 Hz --80 is a great spot to do the crossover. Even if your two front main speakers are large towers that say they go down to 30-35 HZ, if you have a high quality subwoofer it is still wise to set their crossover at anywhere from 60-80HZ as an excellent subwoofer will always outperform the low end of most tower speakers. Most good receivers allow you to set the crossovers for the speakers individually. Now there are some tower speakers, particularly those with their own built-in self-powered subwoofers (such as some Definitive Technology models and NHT's) that you don't need to crossover on these speakers, and might just crossover on the center and the surrounds. Or you may not get a subwoofer at all, if you feel you have adequate bass response. The use of a subwoofer and the crossover points has a lot to do with the quality and frequency response of your speakers and the quality of your subwoofer. Quite a few quality tower speakers have better bass performance than many subwoofers that cost less than $300. The bottom line is--you want to use a subwoofer only if it improves your bass response and your general speaker performance. I have a THX Ultra II receiver and it doesn't have a fixed crossover. I can change it over a fairly wide range to fit and enhance the speakers I have.
G-Man	Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 01:50 GMT Al--DVI is just starting (in the last 2 years) to make some headway. While DVI has a big advantage over component video in convenience, many say it has the same to only slightly better performance in video. But before DVI has gotten its feet wet, it will already be supplanted by HDMI--which equals DVI in video, but also supplies the very advanced surround audio on the same connection. Plus HDMI is backward compatible with DVI--so it seems most new equipment will opt for the superior HDMI over DVI. Humorously, DVI has almost left the building before it walked in the door. So, what are the advantages of HDMI over existing analog interfaces such as composite, S-Video and component video and even DVI? * Quality HDMI (like DVI) transfers uncompressed digital audio and video for the highest, crispest image quality currently available. * All Digital HDMI (like DVI) ensures an all-digital rendering of video without the losses associated with analog interfaces and their unnecessary digital-to-analog conversions. * HDMI (like DVI) provides the quality and functionality of a digital interface while also supporting uncompressed video formats in a simple, cost-effective manner. * Audio HDMI (unlike DVI)supports multiple audio formats, from standard stereo to multi-channel surround-sound. * Ease-of-use HDMI (unlike DVI) combines video and multi-channel audio into a single cable, eliminating the cost, complexity, and confusion of multiple cables currently used in A/V systems. * The "Intelligence" of HDMI supports communication between the video source (such as a DVD player) and the HDTV, enabling new possibilities in functionality. Also, HDMI is fully backward-compatible with DVI using the CEA-861 profile for DTVs. HDMI DTVs will display video received from existing DVI-equipped products, and DVI-equipped TVs will display video from HDMI sources. And current HDTVs and set-top boxes using DVI-HDTV will be compatible with HDMI devices. Currently there are TVs with DVI-HDTV inputs available from a variety of manufacturers. Those devices will be compatible with future HDMI-equipped products. HDMI has the capacity to support existing high-definition video formats (720p, 1080i, and even 1080p). It also has the flexibility to support enhanced definition formats such as 480p, as well as standard definition formats such as NTSC or PAL. So I am waiting to get my new tv monitor that has HDMI, because HDMI will carry the digital audio signal along with the digital video signal. If you only have DVI, you need another route to carry the audio, such as a digital coax cable or Toslink optical. HDMI will carry many channels of uncompressed 24/192 digital audio, so it is worth waiting for. It has enormous bandwidth.
Sarandon	Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 02:22 GMT I also have to agree with g-man. even though i am a Yamaha fan, I KNOW FOR A FACT that the Kenwood VR-6070 CAN BEAT the Yamaha RX-V540. I had a Kenwood it was called the VR-6050 but I did not like how it sound. But I should have gotten the VR-6070 at a dirt cheap price. I could have paid $302 for it at Best Buy through the Kenwood discount. DAMN IT!!!!!!!!
Hawk	Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 08:02 GMT James and Al Holland: I was experiencing some of the same "flickering" problems with my Denon 3803. My response was to simply disconnect the receiver from the video chain and connect my sources directly to my display. It has only been lately that I have put any thought into it and did some checking with local dealers. I have since been told (by three different dealers--two Denon and one Yamaha) that the reason for this flickering is that Denon (and Yamaha) are not using an NTSC compatible switch in the component video section of the receiver. I seems in their zeal to get a competitive advantage (i.e., get a feature like video up-conversion out there before anyone else did), they did not get full NTSC compatibility and that is why you get flickering on some channels when connecting through the component video connections on your receiver. I strongly doubt you will get Yamaha to admit to it, though. Good luck.
Alford Holland	Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 02:21 GMT G-Man, You are sounding like a sales person (pun intended). Is all of that info on HDMI your own wording or was it copied from an article? Unless I am missing something here I still only see HDMI as a convenience and not something that I would rush out to buy. As you stated DVI may be slightly better to some (it was not to me). If HDMI carries the audio and video signal how will it connect into the receiver or pre/pro. If it does not then I would never buy into it as TV's have such poor sound capabilities, especially with a 5.1 system. Call me old fashioned but I do not think that firewire or RS ports have any value to most. How many people actually upgrade a receiver or pre/pro? How much equipment actually has fire wire capability?
G-Man	Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 21:50 GMT Alfred-- The **asterisk parts I copied and pasted -the rest I wrote. HDMI and DVI haven't gotten on receivers yet--I think the new Sony $4500 has it--but I wouldn't go there yet. Within the next year or two there will be many HDMI receivers--hopefully with firewire too, but the program suppliers hate firewire as it is unencrypted. You don't need the DVI or HDMI in the receiver to currently take advantage of certain aspects of them. Eventually all HDTV's will have DVI and the better ones HDMI. The same will be true of universal DVD players (with SACD/DVD-Audio). Hopefully they all, or most, will have firewire too. Currently some Hitachi's and Mitsubishi's have both DVI and firewire. I bet there are some very recent arrivals I haven't heard of. The new Pioneer Elite 59avi dvd player will have i-link (firewire), HDMI, and the T-REX chipset (which will upconvert standard 480 pixel dvd's to HDTV quality). This is even more beneficial if you have the Pioneer Elite 55txi, the 49txi, or the new 59txi receivers that all have i-link (firewire). What you do is connect your HDMI equipped DVD player directly to your DVI or HDMI equipped tv monitor. This brings all your video in pure digital mode to your monitor all on one cable. With the i-link dvd hook-up to the i-link receiver you get the direct surround audio in pure digital without having it go through a DAC. Currently all non firewire receivers can only accept a bunch of analog interconnects for surround. If your monitor also has firewire besides DVI or HDMI you could also send HDTV signal in an unencrypted form to a JVC D-VHS if you want to record in HDTV. You can't record DVI or HDMI in HDTV as it is encrypted to protect the evil empires. I mostly mention this stuff to warn of the future. Of course you can still enjoy your HDTV anyway without the firewire--but there will eventually be an onslaught of new formats and capabilities to take advantage of HDMI and firewire and this will all improve the video and audio experience. Of course it will anger everyone that just missed the boat too. I hope most of the companies allow for retrofitting and software upgrades on most products, or there could be riots at Best Buy and Circuit City:-)
Al Holland.	Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 01:23 GMT G-Man, Thanks for the great explanation. Just remember, the future is like tomorrow, it will never arrive. In today's world it seems that what you buy is obsolete the next day. Enjoy what you can today and do not worry what is coming next. This holds especially true as you grow older.
Lisa France	Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 16:12 GMT I was going to get a 1400, but several people have said the video is not good. So I think this is a problem with the design. this is not the first time yamaha has had a design problem with the video and it makes sense, since they are really an audio company. also sonmething stated that the new IIx has 7 discrete channels, that is not true. goto their site and it tells you that the 6 and 7 channels are matrixed channels, so it seems it is the same as dts neo whcih also does 6 or 7 matrixed channels from stereo or 5.1
PB	Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 02:39 GMT Hey Everyone, I just picked up a 2400 this past week and finally got around to hooking it up yesterday. However, while it has gobs of power for my speakers (Dahlquist [new line] QX10's, QX8's, QX60C & QX150S) it sounds very flat when listening to music. It sounds great with movies & games, I just can't get it to sound right for music. Has anyone else noticed this? I upgraded from a Sony DRE925... which funny enough sounded better when listening to straight music. I've only briefly tried goofing with the DSP and other settings, but so far, haven't had any real luck. Would anyone happen to know of any good websites for this model regarding tuning and setup? How about using the RS-232 port to change settings? If anyone has any tips, I'd greatly appreciate them. Thanks.
Hawk	Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 03:57 GMT PB: "flat sounding" music is one of the major complaints I have both heard from Yamaha owners and have experienced for myself. I don't believe it is something you will be able to improve by changing settings, but I wish you well in seeing what you can do. Yamaha has sought to enhance the HT experience with their soundfields and you may find one of them will make stereo music more palatable.
PB	Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 17:55 GMT Thanks Hawk, Funny enough, on the drive into work, I thought of something that may or may not be true. I think I remember seeing in the GEQ a place to control frqeuency cutoff. Could this value be too high? (like 300 hz or so???) I'm going to try tonight to find that menu again and see what can be changed (cause it almost sounds like one of the x-over settings is off...) As for your suggestions about DSP options, the 7 channel stereo sounds pretty decent... but for what the QX10's are supposed to sound like (on my old Sony) I'd rather run just straight Stereo... Thanks, PB
Hawk	Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 06:52 GMT PB: I have experienced the same problem with my Denon 3803 and have thrown in the towel, so to speak. I am replacing it with an NAD receiver sometime this month when my dealer gets his shipment in from NAD. I find the NAD satisfies my need for quality sound with music which my Denon just cannot deliver.
UNICRON-WMD	Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 07:18 GMT Hi all, this is my first time posting here. Some of you guys are really nutz about this stuff. It should be fun:D Me, I LOVE Yamaha! I have had my Yamaha receiver for 6 years and I have plans to get a new one in a month or so. (RX-V740)I have had it matched with all Infinity speakers and I never was left wanting more. I don't have a sub but I do have plans on getting one real soon also. The only problems I have ever had with my system is lousy recordings. I VERY RARELY nit-picked about bad recording with my old JVC and Bose HT. Not only did the quality of my HT increased at that time but the SPL went from 98dbs all the way up to 118dbs. Not only are my speaker and receiver still working, they played at that level with NO audible distortion. I don't plan on just buying the Yamaha just because I have been so happy with mine for so long, I plan to audition it and a Onkyo 601 and MAYBE the Kenwood 6070. The last time I heard a Kenwood receiver was 6 years ago and it just sounded week as hell. It just would not push the speakers enough to create any soundstage. I was just not impressed at the time. Anyways, companies change and so do their products. Anyways, best regards and don't talk all this so seriously. WMD
Nubile	Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 20:35 GMT WOW! With all this incredible collected knowledge someone please take me under your wing and mentor a complete neophyte into setting up the proverbial best bang for my buck in home audio. I am looking for 7.1 receivers and a speaker set up. Wired already into the drywall of my new home. Need a home theater set up. TV too. What should I buy!? I'm cheap as hell but I love great sound. Small type speakers a must. With this group of audiostuds I'm sure someone can give me a clue. Thanks fellas!
UNICRON-WMD	Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 22:09 GMT It would help me to know how much are you willing to spend and what kind of music do yoi listen to? I am sure it would help the other guys out too. WMD
Nubile	Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 22:26 GMT Thanks WMD, good point. For the total 7.1, 8 speaker package I was hoping for under $1500. 7.1 receiver around $900. I know that's cheapo but it's what I got. Did I mention I also need around a 50" TV. I figure I'll drop another $1500 for that so I'm looking at the full monte in home theater to buy and it hurts. I have a 6 yr. old Sony 5.1 package system that I figure is no help. Thanks!
Nubile	Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 22:42 GMT Whoops! Forgot to say music. From Cold Play to Coltrane. From Foo Fighters to Vivaldi.
Paul Both	Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 14:42 GMT Hey, Just thought I'd leave a follow up. Turns out the flat sounding music I was experiecing was due to a feature in one of the menu's. For some reason, you have the ability to totally remove bass from the front channels (only directing it towards the subs.) Now that I have that fixed, the amp sounds wonderful. Tons of power and lots of clarity. I highly recommend this amp (after you fix the initial settings of the YPAO!!!!) PB
Norbert K	Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 17:23 GMT Has anyone tried the new 2400 with Axiom speakers? M22ti (mains) and VP150 (center)? I just purchased the speakers (not home yet!) and have always been a Sony ES person. However, the Yamaha unit seems very attractive for the ~$700. Thank you.
Anonymous	Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 07:19 GMT Paul Both, If you add an multi-channel amp, it makes the music sound warmeer. I have my Marantz MM9000 (150wpc) to drive my RX-V1400. I notice the improvement.
Clinton Brandhagen	Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 20:42 GMT Thanks, Paul, for following up with your solution to the "flat sound" you were experiencing... I've been using a Yamaha C-60 amp and Yamaha M-60 power amp (they were puchased overseas so they may have different US model #'s) and Bose 901 series 5 speakers for 13 years and have finally decided to upgrade. Has anyone played with the 1400/2400 and Bose 901's? And did they experience an exceptionally bright sound? I've always been a fan of Yamaha, but have recently been told that Denon is a better product these days. Thanks for your thoughts.
lisa france	Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 18:23 GMT so did you send the bass to both or only the sub to make it sound better. on the 3803 sending it to both made it sound much better.
Paul Both PB	Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 21:30 GMT Make sure you set the xover to send BASS to both... if not, for some reason it cuts the fronts really high. (I guess this makes sense if your front speakers are ~okay~ and would rather get the bass out of the sub.) As for hearing the 2400 on anything other than my Dahlquist's... can't help you. But if you compare the speakers build, you should be able to make a guess on the sound nonetheless.
steve8	Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 03:26 GMT " Nino, and to all. There is NO such thing as RMS Power (watts)! There is only RMS voltage and RMS current. RMS - is a mathematical abbreviation for Root Mean Square." hahaha no such thing as RMS power?? hahaha excuse me... hahahhaa instantanious power is simply instantanious voltage times instantanious current... now apply RMS theory over a period of time and get the RMS POWER... hhahahahahah sorry it was just funny that u decided to set us strait... in general u can apply the rms algorithm to anything... especially something that is simply the product of two things which you yourself said could have RMS raitings/.. maybe you meant the RMS wattage doesn't really matter?? well if thats the case then make ur argument but there definately is such a thing as POWER written as RMS..
Dave Parent New member Username: Uzed2rule Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003	Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 03:36 GMT Someone mentioned a problem (bad match) with using Klipsch speakers with Yamaha AVRs -any opinions? I have Klipsch 100db KLF20s Legends (mains) off my old RX-V692 and my problem is that my house is too small and now I must move ;) I haven't heard my sub (except when it has it's own channel) since. Seriously, my 10x15 room with picture window don't like those KLFs (there is just to much sound being pumped hard) however, I do. At lower (more human levels) things are great. Here is my problem, try matching your surounds to 100db beasts without robbing a bank and adding on to your house? My rear (old mains) and center speakers are Mission 732/73Cs and they are nice sounding but struggle when it's time to push things as they are small and have LOW-db. They require a sub fo to handle anything low. This is why I am looking into the 1400/2400; to utilize YPAO to balance things (and to get full rear power to my in-efficient rears -the 692 is only digi-ready w/ half power to rear). A 1400/2400 is cheaper than a set of Klipsch RSX-5/RCX-4 for movies and I get all the new features I have missed since buying into DD/DVD/AVR 6 years ago. I know some may say "ouch, Klipsch and Yamaha" but I like highs, little mids, and like to feel bass more than hear it. I like bright, sharp, and punchy. If I could afford it after the 1400/2400 (either/or) purchace, would be a full set of Klipsch (reference) RSX5s, RCX4, and an RW8/10/12 Sub for movies and pop music to add to my KLFs for stompin' rock. Missions would move to Zone 2 with the 692. Music and Movies are equals through my system. Music tastes vary but centered around Rock!!! Movies are mostly Action/Comedy. Any comments? Dave
Gregory Stern New member Username: Gman Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2003	Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 07:17 GMT The new Yammies are quite different on many levels than the old ones. Many go by the (IMO) flat earth philosophy if it is a Yamaha it has a weak and hot sound. The new ones--have very good preamps. The amp sections aren't the best--but they are at least average for the price level. But there are other receivers, such as Pioneer Elite 53TX and 45Tx and higher that have excellent speaker/acoustic balancing systems (MCCAC). Whether Yamaha on their early try got it close to as good as the Elites (that have been doing it awhile) is dubious--but worth a try. Most people would say the Elites have a more tube-like airy sound that would counteract the "hot" Klipsch szound. Hence they would say the Elites are a better combo. Only you can say what you prefer with your speakers. If you want a more reliable and tested acoustic/speaker balancing system and a better amp go with the Elites. If you want a lot of different DSP sound formats and to try out the Yammy speaker balancing system--go ahead. I would go PE--but I imagine you'd be happy with either. If not, I hope your dealer lets you return the Yammy.
Marc Orlick New member Username: Orcrone Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2003	Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 20:11 GMT Al, Don't know if you're reading this thread anymore, but I noticed your post regarding blowing up speakers using underpowered amps. You're correct, but I figured I'd explain what's behind it. Woofers require, and can take a lot of power. On the other hand the tweeters don't require and can't handle a lot of power. Assuming you have sufficient power the speaker drawers what is needed from the receiver and the crossover makes sure that the woofer, midrange and tweeters receive the proper frequencies, with most of the power going to the woofer. However, when the volume is turned up and the amp is overdriven the waveform 'clips'. To understand clipping picture a sine wave. Now picture it cut off at the top and bottom so that it's flat instead of curved at the top and bottom. This clipped waveform causes a high frequency spike. So now you're taking all the power from the receiver (35 watts in your example) and instead of sending it to the woofer you're sending it to the tweeter, and the next thing you no you have no high end left to your speakers. With a more powerful receiver the signal would not clip and your speakers are intact. I hope this explanation helps and if Nino thinks I'm uneducated, so be it.

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Has anybody tried the new THX Yamaha Receivers like the RX-V1400, RX-V2400 and the new RX-Z9?

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