The crazy train keeps a' rolling! More new gear
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 406 Registered: Dec-06 | Well as many of you know I've had tons of gear shuffle in and out of my system this year. It's gotten silly. I hope I am close to finally settling down now. Bought some new speakers - Monitor Audio RS5. No stands needed! I'm putting off buying a higher end bookshelf for the time being. The deals on the old RS line were too good for me to pass up ($499 for the RS5). Eventually the speaker will move to HT duty. I also bought an RS center channel as I'm thinking those might be harder to come by when I'm ready to move them next to the TV. In my mind this is a cost effective solution to getting a speaker I can enjoy both now and in the future. As far as the amp and CDP goes I really enjoy the YBA YA201 and love my Rega Saturn. You can probably sense a "but" coming... I just can't shake the idea that I should try the same brand for amp and CDP. Same brand = same sonic signature = synergy. After all, I'm sure most of us think that each audio company is after a certain sound and that different gear does in fact sound different. So it only seems logical that if you partner up different brands you could easily wreak havoc with what those companies tried to achieve and lose some of the consistency in the sound. Of course that's not to say that you can't achieve great synergy by mixing it up, but I need to try this as for me combining different brands has tended to leave me a little cold. I think the smooth YBA and Rega sound might be more suited to jazz and classical music, not so much the music I tend to enjoy. I like what I hear from my system but there is something missing. I need something that rocks a little more. Something with better pace, dynamics, resolution and snap. Enter Naim and Exposure. This coming week I will be auditioning the Naim 5i series and the Exposure 2010s series. If I find I enjoy these more than what I have now I will probably make the change. With the Naim I will have to spend a bit more money, but with the Exposure I would probably make some money off of the switch, which might even finance the purchase of a turntable. I'll let you guys know how things shake out. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11388 Registered: Feb-05 | Naim amp with a Rega CD player is classic and quite popular. The Naim Nait XS and Saturn make a splendid pair. The 5i is more in the league with the Apollo than the Saturn. The folks I bought my Sonneteer and Saturn from used to carry Exposure...not any more. Congrats on MA speakers, I've always been a fan. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14035 Registered: Dec-04 | Naim will likely rock more than the Cary, in several ways. Speaker placement will change a LOT between those 2 amps and their presentation. Naim does a 'flat wall of sound' type of thing, without making a lot of depth. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3578 Registered: May-05 | Will a Nait play nicely with your speakers? Remember synergy, you brought it up. Naim will pair up very nicely with your Saturn. Crazy... But that's how it goes. Millions of people, living as foes. Maybe, its not too late To learn how to love, and forget how to hate. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11391 Registered: Feb-05 | Keep in mind Dan that the "smooth" sound you are hearing is the YBA...take home a Nait XS and try it with your Saturn, you may be surprised. Also Naim gear does indeed throw a nice soundstage and images quite well now. In the past that hasn't been a strength, those days are gone. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 407 Registered: Dec-06 | Soundstaging is important to me, not a deal breaker but I do find myself enjoying it while listening. More left to right soundstaging than front to back, so I figure Naim should do a decent job at it. I don't know a ton about Exposure, but from reading online they are considered a poor man's Naim, and lots of Naim fans also dig Exposure. The Stereophile review of the 2010s amp was pretty impressive, for what it's worth. $2,500 for the XS. I'm going to have to say that's out of my price range unless I can get a great deal. My impression of the 5i is that it's somewhere in between the Apollo and Saturn. I've read from many users that Naim and Rega match up well. The dealer I'm going to carries Naim, Rega, Exposure, and Cambridge. I'll be bringing over the YBA and using their Saturn, just to get a feel for my system in their room. Then we'll switch it up for all-Naim and all-Exposure. I might listen to Saturn/Mira3 and Saturn/Naim too. But I don't know...my brain is kind of on this one brand track right now. Not sure I should bring along the RS5, I'm really trying to determine differences in CDP/amp combos, so any good speaker should do. They've got Tannoy, ProAc, and Spendor, among others. But of course, hearing things through my speakers is obviously logical. It removes another variable from the mix. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11395 Registered: Feb-05 | The Mira 3 couldn't even get the most from the Apollo and is a pretty benign amp. It doesn't destroy music but it renders it pretty lifeless. I owned the Mira 3 in an all Rega system for several years. I'm not sure who told you that the Nait is between the Apollo and the Saturn. The Apollo has been used as a good matchup in a Nait 5i-2 system where someone wants a similar level of PRaT as the entry level level Naim cd player with more glossing over of the leading edges. The Apollo isn't as good as the CD5i to me, but to some it is the equivalent. The Saturn compares to the Naim CD5 XS relative to quality...some one will prefer one to the other but not because one is better than the other but as a matter of preference. One brand does not guarantee better sound and you already have one of the best cd players on the market at anywhere near it's price...a Rega amp won't fix the issue and at any price you can afford you are not going to get better sound from a one brand solution. Certainly not with Exposure or Rega. Naim perhaps, as the Nait 5i-2 and CD5i are a great pair, just be aware that the CD5i is not as a good a cd player as the Saturn. Enjoy the shopping! |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 408 Registered: Dec-06 | That seems to be what a lot of people think, Art, that Rega amps aren't on the same level as their disc turners. If I'm going to hang onto the Saturn and get a new amp, it'll likely therefore be a Nait 5i-2 or a 2010s. Both are of course not not in the Saturn's league but that doesn't automatically mean there won't be synergy in my system. So I will perhaps give those combinations a shot. But I'm afraid that amps that might match the Saturn best, a Naim XS or an Exposure XXXV (their $3,000 amp and from what I've read has the old Exposure sound) are just not in the budget. If I can snag a demo model for half price, well, that might change things! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11396 Registered: Feb-05 | The Nait 5i-2 will work well with the Saturn, you just have to be aware that you won't squeeze all of the goodie from the Saturn, and that's ok. I'm not a big fan of Exposure amps. the 2010 is tiring and the 3010 boring...strangely dissimilar. Obviously some folks do like them and it's their ears and ultimately your ears that must decide (along with the pocketbook..lol!). |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14044 Registered: Dec-04 | Well, Dan, at least you will not need stands, LOL! The 5i is likely expecting a Naim cdp and interconnect, but beware the Naim upgrade monster! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11397 Registered: Feb-05 | Most brands have entry level products and an upgrade path. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3579 Registered: May-05 | I think Dan meant the CD5i is somewhere between the Apollo and Saturn. It is, but on that scale its a lot closer to the Apollo than the Saturn IMO. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14045 Registered: Dec-04 | Which other brands offer upgrades in levels of power cords, carrying outboard power supplies, each with IT'S own power cords, even before various levels of interconnects? It seems, potentially, death by a thousand cuts. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11398 Registered: Feb-05 | An upgrade is an upgrade. You backtracked from this "death by a thousand cuts" stuff when Frank was here, stating that you were trying to get his attention...why the change of heart. Naim simply offers a nearly complete line up. When I upgrade gear I often upgrade the cabling. Nice to know that Naim has their own...or you can choose others. As Frank made clear each of these products with power supply upgrades, compete with and often outperform products in their price category before the upgrade. The upgrade simply allows for better performance without having to start from scratch. I believe the argument you made had something to do with releasing products in an incomplete form, worded differently but meaning something similar. Naim products as they are released are in completed form but well thought out enough to allow for an upgrade. The upgrade path seems easier to me than scrapping the entire piece and starting over. I realize that this hobby is the perfect vehicle for folks with OCD's (and I'm not naive enough to believe that Naim doesn't know this) but we really don't have to succumb to the upgrade bug, it's a choice. The young fella who bought the Naim setup complete with the Ariva speakers, is, last I heard still happy with his system. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14057 Registered: Dec-04 | Correct, Art, and I still think so. Naim offers more of the food/money chain than anybody. How much do I have to spend on a Naim to have the hicap as standard? Is this power supply standard on anything? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11405 Registered: Feb-05 | Many of the Naim products complete with hicap upgrade cost less than McIntosh and Bryston. Not sure what the problem is...do the 2 boxes bother you? I'm puzzled. If Mac offered a power supply upgrade for your amp would that somehow diminish the performance of your amp or would that allow for even better performance from the amp you currently have. I guess I see it as the latter and you see it as the former. I believe what you are saying is that in the perfect world the flatcap would come standard....but do you mean in the same case as the original product or separate? If it's in the same case then that partially defeats the purpose...if separate you don't think folks should have the option of buying for improved performance in the future while maintaining a product with awesome performance straight out of the box. Perhaps we differ in this way as well. My experience with Naim pieces is that they sound great as is. I've never heard one with a flatcap that I can recall, yet I very much like what I've heard. Perhaps you have not enjoyed Naim performance as much as I have, and believe the gear needs the flatcap in order to perform at a satisfactory level. Anaway, we'll see if Dan even likes the Naim amp. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2243 Registered: May-06 | Dan, I do not recall but have you done everything to optimize your room and your power? The impression I am getting is that you are ready to make a sideways move. I think you prefer to stay away from the used market but that may be where you need to be to get more out of the Saturn in terms of bang for the buck. You also indicated that your RS5s are somewhat stop gap to be assigned to HT purposes at some later time. Maybe a strategy is in order with a timeline of sorts to help you understand how to move your system forward in the right increments. FWIW I do not think the RS5s and the Saturn are at the same level as the Saturn and your YBA are. As to the smoothness, interconnects and power cords have their role in that too, have you experimented with them at all? Lately all of my funds have gone into dedicated circuits, power conditioner, power cords, upgrades on interconnects and speaker wire, and room treatments including a half of dozen ASC bass traps. I do not think I will be upgrading any gear for quite some time based upon where my system is now. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2678 Registered: Nov-05 | Dan, I agree with evrything Mike just stated. Also, synergy is not only found by sticking to the same brand although usually it's a sure bet. But it often happens with different brands in the mix. I'm sure it has with many folks here. I know my system has it in spades yet I know there could be some improvement if I wasn't contrained by not being willing to turn our living room into an audio only space. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11421 Registered: Feb-05 | I can definitely see wanting to change out the YBA as it's not the most involving piece I've heard so we'll what Dan does. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 409 Registered: Dec-06 | Michael, I'm not sure what I can do to optimize the room. It's not perfect I'm sure but it's not bad. Music was more involving through my old system in the same room. Many things the current system does better than the old one but there is still something missing on the whole. The room is carpeted and the ceiling is finished so it absorbs sound. There is quite a bit of furniture. When you speak there is no echo, or a barely audible one when clapping. I'm thinking about putting a picture or two (or acoustic panels) up behind the listening position, because right now that's a bare wall. To me bass has always sounded great, treble might need some taming though I'm not sure if it's the system or the room. If I still find it to be a problem with the new system then I'll explore room treatments. FWIW I do not think the RS5s and the Saturn are at the same level as the Saturn and your YBA are. As to the smoothness, interconnects and power cords have their role in that too, have you experimented with them at all? I'm not sure what you mean by the first sentence. Do you mean the RS5 is not at the same level as the Saturn and YBA? It's definitely lower than the other two pieces in terms of price, but I feel that this alone should not preclude synergy. The RS line represents great value among speakers. I am of the mind that higher end electronics should actually get the best from a lower end speaker. That's the source first philosophy I guess. I will see when I'm testing. Buying Exposure would essentially be a downgrade and would bring the price of each component into line - perhaps this is where I'll end up. I have done some experimentation with cables, though not a ton. My view on cables is that they are a bit of a tweak...something that has a definite impact but won't completely alter the way a system sounds. So it's best to experiment with them after you've got a system that already sounds very good. I've not done anything with power but I am using an Ultralink power conditioner. No complaints with it. I've listened carefully with and without, and I don't feel it constrains dynamics in any way, which is a complaint many seem to have with conditioners. Right now the system sounds great for some music. Soft rock, and music recorded with acoustic guitar both sound great, though still a bit uninvolving. When I bring on the harder rock that is when it really just doesn't sound right. It's like the music is weighed down, it's just too smooth for what the music really is. My older, much lower end gear, got that music more right than this system is getting it. I get this feeling whether I'm using the Evo2-10 or the Tannoy F2 speakers. Which has lead me to look at the electronics and whether the YBA/Saturn is a good match. And to set my sights on Exposure and Naim, specifically because they are reputed to be great with the rock genre. Over the next couple of days I will see what effect the RS5 has on what I am hearing and go from there in terms of determining whether to change electronics and to which electronics to change to. For better or worse I've decided to move on from the Evo2-10 and Tannoy F2 to the RS5, which presented a great value at it's discounted price and will one day make a great HT speaker. I had heard the RS6 before and thinking back it was probably one of my favorite speakers thus far. Now first listen to the RS5 was last night. Sounds great! Unfortunately I could not get them positioned well at all, as I need longer speaker cable (which I have, I just haven't prepared it yet) and a proper chair at the right height. So that is what I am hopefully going to accomplish today and then start to form some concrete impressions. What did strike me most though, was how full the bass sounded. I guess that's what a tower speaker can accomplish. I felt greater detail coming though as well, a better separation of instruments. And they are definitely a gorgeous speaker. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 412 Registered: Dec-06 | Slight change of plans. I called the dealer I was planning to go to and let's just say he wasn't all that enthusiastic about helping me. I don't get people like this, you've got a potential sale coming and it's like it's all you can do to show any interest. He was surprised I wanted to bring my current gear, saying everyone else just comes in and listens to what he has and that's it. He said I could come listen but that he wouldn't give me much time. Haha, okay then, thanks but no thanks. What's funny is that at the end of the call he was encouraging me to still come in. Now English isn't his first language I'm sure, so perhaps this barrier has something to do with it. Nevertheless, I don't see any misinterpretation on my part. On the plus side, he did make me aware that the Nait 5i has no sub out or pre out, so I wouldn't be able to use my sub. I could use the speaker connections on the sub I guess, but I recently bought new subwoofer cable and this may or may not seem like a good reason for a deal breaker but it's too much of a headache to change direction now. So Naim is pretty much out unless I move up to the XS which I'm not going to do. Who would've thought that an integrated amp would come without a sub out? It always seemed like a basic connection to me. So I called the dealer who I bought the Saturn from, he's the nicest guy you could ever meet. He runs his shop from his home and is happy to give an extended demo and won't pressure you to do this or that. He was really the one I would want to buy from but he just didn't have the brands I was interested in. No Naim, no Exposure...but he did have one or two pieces of used Exposure gear, and he also carries Creek, these are two reasons why I called. Turns out he is just starting to carry Exposure. He should get the first batch in a day or two. He said he had a few used pieces in and was using them with his Tannoys and loved the sound. He has been trying to get Exposure for some time. He also mentioned that the 2010s has just been updated to version 2, which is what he will receive. So I'll hopefully be comparing the Creek Evo2 and Exposure 2010s2. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2693 Registered: Nov-05 | Dan, not a lot of integrated or even pre-amps have a sub out. They make them for audiophiles not HT enthusiasts. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 413 Registered: Dec-06 | Most of the ones I've seen do. My YBA does, and any Cambridge or NAD or Audiolab I've seen does as well. But I suppose more of the high end brands may not. And I don't simply mean a "sub-out" connection MR, it could also be a "pre-out" connection. The Naim has neither. And I suppose it's true that subs are most popular within a home theater, but from reading various forums I gather that probably half the users employed a sub, but rather than some cheap passive sub they had a $2,000 REL or Paradigm instead. I've been on the fence about whether to use one or not. Integration can be tough, but I've found with a little work you can usually integrate it quite nicely into the overall sound. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2694 Registered: Nov-05 | I know some do and that's a marketing ploy to make the unit a bit ht friendly I believe. I use a sub in HT and hi-rez surround, but not for 2 channel listening. I have a receiver taking care of surrounds and sub with pre-out from the front mains to an input on my pre-amp. For 2 channel listening, if you have speakers that will go down to around 50hz or below you don't really need a sub. The open e string on a bass is around 43-45hz and there's not too much save some organ notes that goes below that. However if the sub is important to you then you'll benefit from a sub input obviously. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 414 Registered: Dec-06 | The strange thing about Naim is that their lowest end amp has no sub-out or pre-out. You have to move up to an amp costing US$2,500 before you get this. Only audiophiles are going to consider such an amp. I've tried to go with a sub that is good for music, so I settled on a sealed design by Martin Logan. A nice deal can be had on ML subs lately. The RS5 will lessen the need to use a sub I would imagine, however I will only know once I can put some hours on them whether I'll continue using a subwoofer or not. With my old sub I would go through periods where I'd use it and other periods where I wouldn't. I try to keep the volume dialed low so that the sub does not draw attention to itself but at the same time still fills in the lower frequencies nicely. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 693 Registered: Oct-07 | A0 on a piano is 27.5hz. Organ CAN go down to 16hz.(aprox) while the Bosendorfer Imperial Grand has an additional octave and is an amazing instrument. Hold on to your hat. This one is Very expensive. http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/model-290-imperial.html |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2695 Registered: Nov-05 | Never heard of A0 Leo - you find a new note :-) |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 694 Registered: Oct-07 | http://www.vibrationdata.com/Resources/piano_keys.jpg |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 362 Registered: Aug-04 | The Rega Exon 3 get a bum rap, if you ask me. They're really nice sounding monoblocks. Unless you have very inefficent speakers and/or an enormous room; they are going to rock your drivers nicely. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2698 Registered: Nov-05 | Leo - Thanks - a key description number. Good info thanks. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 428 Registered: Dec-06 | Continued from the Evo2-10 thread... Nick, I'd really hate to give up the Saturn. I was thinking that going with a matching amp and CD player would yield better synergy (I still believe there must be greater assurance of synergy, though I understand now it doesn't preclude synergy if you mix it up). But now I am more open to keeping the Saturn and pairing it with another amp. To me the YBA is simply too laid back, and switching it out, even if it's a sideways move or slight downgrade, if the sound is more lively then I'm sure I will prefer it. Rock just doesn't rock right now is the simplest way of saying it. I can't really move up the ladder any more I'm afraid...the Saturn was probably not the best fit for me from the get go (I was always a little overwhelmed at buying one). In truth the Apollo was probably more appropriate, given my other gear, but of course there was $900 off the Saturn with the Rega special. The Saturn is also a lot more refined sounding and smoother than my old player. Perhaps the Saturn, as great as it is, isn't unlike the YBA in that it may be better suited to other kinds of music. Like I said, I'd feel like I'm nuts for giving up the Saturn, but if another combo sounds better to me then what am I to do? I suppose I could keep searching to see if there is an amp that works with the Saturn and the music I like that would allow me to keep it. The dealer also carries Cambridge; another option that has occurred to me is DacMagic with Cambridge 840A or a Creek Destiny, or an Exposure 2010s2 or 3010s2. The cheaper DacMagic would allow me to move up to a nicer amp. I know that Cambridge generally matches up well with Monitor Audio, going by what others have said and my own experience. Again I am just hoping to get components that work well together and with the music I tend to like most; my thinking up till now is that whatever accomplishes that is what I should get, whether it includes the Saturn or not. A tough decision knowing how good the Saturn is. Again, the dealer is http://www.audioeden.com. I am not limited to this dealer, but the service is top notch and it would be much more convenient to trade in my gear rather than sell it myself. With that in mind I figure I should at least start there, and move to other options only if I'm not loving what I hear. I could always go used too...Audio Eden deals with tons of used gear, which he posts on CAM. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2726 Registered: Nov-05 | Source first Dan, source first. As good as the DACmagic may be, it ain't no Saturn. I very doubt your Saturn is the problem. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 429 Registered: Dec-06 | I am leaning to comparing these systems as a first step: Exposure 2010s2 amp + Exposure 2010s2 CDP Exposure 2010s2 amp + Rega Saturn With the YBA too perhaps, just as a point of reference. I'll see where that leads. I don't think the Exposure 2010s2 is a better source than the Saturn, but maybe synergy or personal preference for that sound may come into play. I won't take getting rid of the Saturn lightly. I want to keep it simple to start off with, not mix in too much gear, and hopefully the above comparison will highlight clearly what the Saturn brings to the table over the 2010s2. Hopefully I'll also get a sense if I enjoy that amp and then finally if it pairs well with the Saturn. The DacMagic, from all I've read, is equivalent to a 740C. A great player I'm sure, I kind of wish CA would have shot for the 840C with their DAC though as that seems to be the crown in their lineup. Though that could have cannibalized sales of the 840C. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2727 Registered: Nov-05 | Dan, it seems to me you just don't know what sound or qualities are going to satisfy you. You seem to be hopping from one thing to the other in the hope that some miracle will occur and presto - all will be hunky dory in your audio world. I think many here have been trying to tell you that you need to establish what it is that you want your gear to do. A certain speaker didn't do it for you but you couldn't quite put your finger on the problem. Now you are vacillating over the amp (which you initially were very happy with) and also the Saturn, which while it is a sensational machine, it is not going to be brought down by lesser components, although it may show its stuff to a higher degree with some better ones. Personally, I think you should take a deep breath, listen to music for a while and not your equipment. Then try to ascertain what you think is missing or what could be improved upon. But give it some time and concentrate on the muscic. Apart from all that do you think your listening room might present some problems? Just my two cents worth. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 762 Registered: Jul-07 | One thing you might think about doing Dan is listening to gear you don't think you would ever buy, or could afford. Find something that strikes your fancy, something that makes you go "that's it!". Your dealer has some higher end brands, listen to them. You're worried about synergy and have thus assigned responsibility for the lack of engagement in your kit, however the question remains, is it synergy ? And if so, synergy between what and what ? Maybe your focusing on the head and the problem's at the tail ? As you've been councelled, I'd think long and hard before making ANY more purchases until you've got some idea what you are after. I know you have an idea what your after, but you need to hear it not just read it. If you can find something that is so good you become preoccupied with having it, then your on the right track. Even if it is horribly out of your budget, the folks here might be able to route you to something with similar qualities in a more affordable component....or you look to the used market. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 365 Registered: Aug-04 | Dan, I think most of us have gone through this at one time or another in our search for the right gear. Some times going through it a few times. That seemingly hopeless and neverending search for gear that suits our individual music tastes/listening habits, room and budget. Don't get discouraged. Try to focus on what your needs are. Focus on the type of sound YOU like. Make a list on paper of what you want from your system. What attributes/sound you want. When you audition, have a little notebook with you and jot down the attributes and negatives you hear. But take into careful consideration of the room itself, room's acoustics and what ever else is in the room. In all honesty, I play everything through the Rega Saturn and Apollo. Yeah, I've heard some people claim that the Rega players are better suited for Jazz and classical. And that rock is not it's cup of tea (little British pun, there...lol). But I've never encountered that with my players. I often listen to Judas Priests Sad Wings Of Destiny (the JP K2 Remaster), Sin After Sin, Stained Class, Pearl Jam, Triumph, Rush, Seven Mary Three, UFO, Angel, Neil Young, Pink Floyd, Tom Petty, Humble Pie, Queensryche, The Ramones, The Fix, Neil Finn, Croweded House, INXS, 70's Elton John, 70's Pop and Funk, Disco, Ryan Adams, Grateful Dead, April Wine........the list goes on. Along with all the blues, jazz, classical, New Age and other types of music I love. I've never found the Rega players lacking in the ability to rock. I just don't get that. I tend to think your system is lacking a synergy. Maybe the YBA amp is too laid back for you. I could see that as a possibility. But be careful and don't go to the complete opposite of the spectrum, here (well, unless that's what you like). Maybe you can consider your room acoustics and your setup, first. Take a look at the flat surfaces and the possibility of too much glass, metal. Or maybe even over-dampening in your room. You may want to try looking into some used Van Alstine amps and pre amps. Rega players go well with VA gear. Ultimately, I found synergy between components is a deal maker. Nothing beats the pure synergy od gear that's designed to be matched together. And I know alot of people disagree (and that's fine), but Tone Controls or Equalization is essential; in my opinion. Especially if you're listening to a lot of rock that was either badly recorded or horibbly mastered. In a lot of instances, both. Good luck to you and I wish you the best on your search. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 366 Registered: Aug-04 | Oh and one more thing. Take your time. be patient with yourself. Carefully consider all aspects of the gear your considering and comparing against each other. Decide what's most important to you. For example, one of the factors I considered was the Jamo C80 (and C60 ) Series not having real wood veneers. But ultimately, the sound ...the musicality of these speakers stomped on any superficial aesthetic considerations. It made real wood veneers irrelevent. A moot point. Consider everything patiently and calmly. Absorb yourself in the search...the journey and have fuin with it. Don't let it stress you out. because if it does stress you out, that defeats the very essence of this hobby. Passion for music, fun with music. Remember........retain the fun. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 430 Registered: Dec-06 | Hi guys, I think you guys are right, perhaps I should slow down a little. I'm hoping to have a "wow" moment with the Exposure amp and then buying it will be an easy choice, but if I don't have that moment then I will have to keep listening. Perhaps I will consider Cyrus too. I've never liked the smaller size of their gear when just about all other components made are the standard larger size, but from all accounts they rock and time extremely well. In terms of sound, I agree that I'm not positive what I want though I think it's becoming a little clearer. The PMC speakers I had for a bit were very smooth and I loved their sound, so the decisions I made to get the Saturn and YBA were with this in mind. Now I'm feeling things are too smooth. But I think it's more than smoothness, now the sound feels weighed down and slow, whereas the PMC while smooth and rich sounding also were quicker and more dynamic. The amp I used (Audiolab 8000S) had a punchier sound, something I also enjoyed. I felt that punchier sound through my Tannoy's and the PMC's. The YBA just doesn't seem to have that. It makes for a great amp with some of my music but it just doesn't rock. I want details in the music to come through as well, I definitely enjoy listening for that. So of course I should be listening for these things and buy only when I hear them. I think I've got a good set of speakers now in the RS5, they are no PMC but I think they give me what I'm looking for until I can move upwards again. I think with the Saturn I am wrestling with two sets of outlooks, both of which are espoused by audiophiles: 1. Source first, the Saturn is the best piece in the system and replacing it won't make the system better. Build around that. 2. Synergy. The whole should be more than the sum of the parts, and even if one component is better than another it may not fit into the system as well as the inferior component does. I think both make sense, though I find myself believing more in #2. I think we've all heard very expensive systems that just didn't sound right. But of course one could always decide to build around the Saturn and find a system that matches up well with it. This is something that may be a bit more time consuming and expensive, but ultimately worth it. I'll let you guys know how I get on with the auditioning. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 434 Registered: Dec-06 | I'm going to try to listen to some of the gear Nick suggested. Bryston is a little too pricy for me at about $2,500 for the B60. I can't believe how expensive Cyrus is too, but the lower end model is affordable, though it's only 40 watts. Probably quality power though. However, I might be able to swing one of the lower rung Sim Audio integrateds, or the Blue Circle GDC. I don't feel too bad taking Audio Eden's time as I will be buying the Cambridge Blu-Ray player anyhow at the very least. May as well do a little more comparison shopping just to be sure that I get something I like. Selling my own gear will be much less ideal but I have to make sure I make a move I can live with for a decent amount of time. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 435 Registered: Dec-06 | Tomorrow I'll be listening to a few amps. One store has the Naim Nait 5i and Bryston B100, another the Simaudio i-1, and yet another the Parasound P3/A23 combo. The Parasound combo is about the same price as the cheapest integrated on the list, so whether that says worse quality or better bang for the buck I'm not sure. While I deemed the Bryston and Naim XS as too expensive, perhaps a demo model deal could happen. Or heck, I could probably stretch to it if I really dig the sound. One thing I always remembered reading on the Magnepan website, was their comment about which amps to match with their speakers. They say that an amp should double it's wattage when the impedence is halved (or come very close to it). Over time I have noticed, however, that most amps do not match this requirement. It's probably more like 1.5 or 1.6 times rather than 2 times. On my list the only one that does double is Simaudio. After Sim would be Parasound, then Bryston, then Naim, and then Cyrus (which only goes from 40wpc to 50wpc). Exposure does not provide a 4ohm number. My interpretation is that perhaps the Sim has the most robust power supply, and that at various frequencies where the impedence of a speaker dips it will be better able to provide consistent sound (since it compensates better for these dips). I would assume that this advantage is not just apparent at impedence dips, but also perhaps when the music calls for great dynamic swings. Maybe there are trade-offs, and maybe my interpretation of these figures is not correct to begin with. I'll let you all know how I get on, and if anyone has insight into the above specs it would be nice to hear. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3596 Registered: May-05 | The doubling of power shouldn't be a make or break thing. A lot of amps' distortion dramatically increases at very low impedence. The brands you listed know this and have probably compensated for it rather than let all hell break loose. Bryston's power supply may be the most robust of the bunch. I say this because they are true dual mono - they have a seperate power transformer for each channel. Open up any Bryston amp (or integrated) and there will be one power supply for each channel. Some are harder to see as they are stacked on top of each other, but they're there. There have been a few Brystons on Audiogon lately going for a bit too cheap IMO. It probably has something to do with the economy. That's a good thing if you're looking to buy. You're probably familiar with their 20 year transferrable warranty. If you liked the PMCs, I'm pretty sure Bryston will be right up your alley. They use each other's gear in voicing. SimAudio makes a great amp. They sound very similar to Bryston, but they're a little softer or more polite sounding. They'll keep up in dynamics, transparency and paceing with just about anyone, but the highs are a tad soft IMO. Naim is Naim. They're very polarizing. You'll either love it or hate it. I think you'll love it, based on what you've said. PMC is a very popular pairing with Naim as well. I'm really not trying to push Bryston on you, but its a must audition IMO. If you need to go the second hand route to afford it, its the safest bet by far second hand. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 763 Registered: Jul-07 | Both Bryston and Simaudio have their advocates. I think both are tremendous products, but my ears prefer the Moon gear. A little sweeter in the treble and midrange than Bryston which I find has a little more bite. Not a bad thing depending on what you listen to. I'd prefer a Moon amp for what I listen to (jazz, pop, folk) and probably a Bryston for what I listen to less(rock, blues, metal). |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 436 Registered: Dec-06 | There is a good chance I will end up with PMC long term, so Bryston might be a natural choice. And given my choice in music Bryston could be the better fit. I wasn't aware of the per channel power supply Stu, so that is good to know. Might have something to do with Bryston's cost I suppose. I mentioned the B100 but if I buy it'll be the B60. The 100 is the model they have on display, so will be the one that I hear. I don't like highs that are very harsh, which may favour the Simaudio, however a lot of this will also depend on the speaker I eventually buy. I didn't find PMC harsh at all, and now that I think about it this is probably due to it having a flatter frequency response in the highs than many other speakers that tend to have a bump in the highs and lows for a more exciting sound. The pleasant highs are why I've always had the impression that PMC had a rolled off treble, but in fact I think it's not so much rolled off as it is not raised as many other speakers are. I'd hate to waste a store's time only to run out and buy used. So if I do settle on Naim or Bryston I might try to work something out with them. Given the price differences though I'm thinking these two will have to be significantly better than the others on my list for me to pull the trigger. Any idea what a more affordable amp may be that is similar to these two? I guess that would probably be entry level Simaudio and maybe Exposure (Exposure definitely was at one point similar to Naim, from what I have read, but now I get the impression many would say otherwise). Parasound is intriguing, $1,800 for separates. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3597 Registered: May-05 | Bryston isn't harsh in the highs by any means. I understand what you mean my not wanting to waste the dealer's time. I told my Bryston dealer that I was looking into buying a used B60 and he said come in and listen anyway. He was very polite and informative. In return, I'll buy a BDA-1 from him when its time. Dealers sell other stuff too. Maybe pick up a set of interconnects or something like that? Here's an internal pic of the B60 (not mine)  Again, please don't think I'm trying to push Bryston on you. The SimAudio gear is excellent sounding and very well made. I believe they still carry a 10 year warranty (not transferrable though). Naim is also excellent sounding gear. From purely a sound quality standpoint, I think the Nait 5i is a better value for money. Its very well built and sounds great, but it isn't a Bryston. I like the B60 a bit more but would have been very happy with a Nait if I didn't stumble along my B60. Also keep in mind connectivity. The B60 only has 4 inputs (3 if it has a phono stage or DAC built in). I think the Nait has 5? The others have a few more inputs too. The B60 doesn't come with a remote standard. If you buy a new one w/o the remote, you can't just get a universal remote for a few bucks less. It won't have the volume control motor. These things may make the decision easier. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 437 Registered: Dec-06 | The Bryston/Naim dealer is very accommodating in allowing me to listen. I've been in there before and the salesperson was happy to let me listen to a pair of Neeper speakers that I had zero chance of buying (these things cost $20,000). Stores like this will definitely get my business one day. I'll buy a TV or receiver from them in the future I'm sure. I always remember the stores that give me good service and make a point to buy from them one day. I've done it at three different stores thus far. The ones that are lacking I won't set foot in again. From that perspective I guess it makes sense; they cannot expect to make a sale every time someone listens. I've had two dealers lately tell me I could come in and listen "if you're serious about buying". What a turn off that line is, the whole point of these stores having gear on display is to let people try it out. If a customer doesn't buy then maybe they went in another direction, it doesn't mean they went in just to listen to some gear for kicks. Anyways, I don't think you are pushing Bryston on me at all Stu. From all I've read it really is some sweet sounding, top quality, gear with pretty much unbeatable customer service. Kind of ugly, but the look is growing on me a little! I prefer the minimalist look most times, just maybe with just a little more polish. But a nice, clean, black B-60 doesn't look bad at all. And I bet in person it looks better than in pictures. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14168 Registered: Dec-04 | http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/154633-bryston_ampsall_with_warranty__fre e_shipping/ |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 439 Registered: Dec-06 | Can you take the handles off of those things, Nuck? Add a preamp and I guess that would run $1,000 more. Will consider it. Back from auditioning. First was the Bryston B-100. Beautiful. Can't say I've got any complaints about what I heard. Everything just sounded right. The Monitor Audio Platinum towers that they were played through didn't hurt any I'm sure. I can get a nice deal on the floor model (slightly more than a new B-60) but it still blows through my budget. The amp and CDP even looked really good in their silver finish! I can see myself buying something more affordable right now and then when I upgrade in five or ten years it'll be to PMC/Bryston. On to Naim. The Supernait and the CD5i. Not the perfect match but it's what they had to hear. Same speakers. Maybe I'm not a Naim guy, because this was so disappointing. Dynamics were great, but other than that to my ears it was inferior to the B-100. The Bryston had significantly more body to it's sound, while the Naim sounded light and brittle by comparison. I'd even say PRaT-wise I thought the Bryston was better. The Bryston sound enveloped the listener, while Naim (even though I know it's supposed to be in your face) sounded like it was coming from further back (maybe at speaker level). The Bryston put you more into the center of the performance. It had weight to the sound, was smooth, but rocked. Can't say enough about those Monitor Audio speakers either, they seem an ideal match with Bryston. Perhaps they are not with Naim. The salesman remarked that they find Naim is much more dependent on synergy...or something to that effect. Missed out on the Parasound. Hopefully I'll be able to squeeze an audition in during the week. Next up was Sim Audio, at another store. I only listened for about 10 minutes as I got there near closing time. I wish I could have been there earlier to hear them with another set of speakers. It was the i-1 with a Simaudio CDP, hooked up to some small ELAC speakers. Different speakers makes it tough to compare, but nevertheless I enjoyed what I heard. The salesman ensured me that the Dynaudio's they carry would have a fuller and less in your face (with respect to the treble) sound, and match up well with Simaudio. That would be ideal as I'm sure there is a bump in the high frequencies of the ELAC. The woofer looked to be 4 inches or so, but still did an admirable job given it's size. I prefer a sound with more fullness to it, however. And how about the display on the Sim CD player? I think a couple of times I was reaching over to hit the snooze button before I caught myself and realized it's not a clock radio! Brutal display, but the sound seems excellent and Sim has a great upgrade program. Bring in the amp one year from now and get it's full value back to upgrade to the 1.3. If you do it in two years you get 75% value. So Bryston kicked @ss, Naim was not for me, and Simaudio wasn't a perfect demo but I still enjoyed the sound. When it comes to price then Simaudio is really the only one I can consider, unless I opt for a used Bryston B-60 or something else like what Nuck posted (even that is higher than what I feel I can pay right now though). I wish Bryston was just a little more affordable! It's going to be a busy week or two over Xmas and New Year's, so I'm hoping to get just about all the listening done this weekend. Tomorrow it'll be Exposure, Cyrus, and maybe Creek. Then I've got some thinking to do. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11550 Registered: Feb-05 | You can get a used B60 for less than a grand. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3598 Registered: May-05 | There's an almost 3 year old B60 R on Audiogon for $1600... http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1265306211&/Bryston-b-60r-sst-Ba y-Area There's a few older ones for less money too. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 440 Registered: Dec-06 | I read a little about Bryston amps but haven't gotten much into it yet. I read that they came out with an SST update a couple of years ago. The older pre-SST amps go for under a grand, while a used SST is about $1,600 (like the one Stu linked to). Not sure what the SST update is all about yet. I'll contact a couple of other good Bryston dealers in my area to see if they have a demo model that they might be willing to part with. Stu, I take it you think the B60 has enough guts to really rock? 60 watts isn't huge, but of course watts are not everything, and Bryston typically ensures that their amps achieve at least what their specs say I'm sure. Bought a couple of things today too. An Ultralink Discovery interconnect from the first dealer, and Uriah Heep's Demons and Wizards on vinyl from the second one. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11552 Registered: Feb-05 | Depends on the speakers, Dan. I have 50 watts and efficient, easy to drive speakers. I rocked out pretty loud earlier. The 50 watts is plenty in my system and I think the same can be said for Stu and his B60. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 441 Registered: Dec-06 | Well crazy as it may sound my old Denon mini-system at 30 watts filled my room plenty loud and rocked pretty good. But when compared to better standalone amps you could tell that the sound was a little flat by comparison and dynamics were a bit muted. It drove my speakers to good volume but didn't seem to have quite the grip on the drivers that real amps do. Pretty good for what it was though. Naim does a 'flat wall of sound' type of thing, without making a lot of depth. Nuck, it sounds like that's what I heard with Naim. The Bryston had depth, the sound was close to me and extended back. It filled the room. With Naim the wall of sound was at the speakers and didn't extend forward or back. Maybe this is like watching a band up on stage in a live setting with no speakers placed around the venue to add to the sound. I'm not sure, it definitely was different though and would take a lot of getting used to. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3600 Registered: May-05 | "Maybe this is like watching a band up on stage in a live setting with no speakers placed around the venue to add to the sound." This is pretty much the way Frank Abela described it. He sells Naim and a host of others on the weekends. Too bad he's not around here anymore. The SST series is a decent upgrade to the previous series. My amp isn't an SST. I thought it was, and it was an honest mistake by the seller. Some B60s can be sent to Bryston to upgrade it to SST for about $125 + shipping. It has to fall after a certain serial number. It has to go to Canada, and can't be done in the US service center. I plan on sending mine in after the holidays. The main and only audible difference (according to Mike Pickett, Bryston engineer) is the SSTs use a different output device. They have different feet and speaker posts. 60 Watts is more than enough to drive my speakers to an uncomfortable level. I haven't heard it get compressed or edgy, although it probably would right before it clipped. I have no desire to find out, and it would get absurdly loud before it ran out of steam. My room is on the smaller side and my speakers are relatively easy to drive. In a big open room with hard to drive speakers, it may struggle a little if you expect it to play Metallica concert sound levels. The said can be said for the Nait and Sim integrateds. I don't think they'll have any problems with a realistic speaker in an average room playing a bit louder than usual if necessary. A brand that hasn't been mentioned yet is Creek. If you have a dealer nearby, they're worth looking into IMO. They have a 3 integrateds at different price points. I've heard the EVO and Classic and they're both very good. Roy Hall (owner of Music Hall which distributes Creek and others) is a real pain in the behind and isn't the most supportive of his gear, but Creek is very well made. Maybe Roksan too. I don't know their current prices and haven't heard the last line or two. All the stuff that's been mentioned should pair up very well with your Saturn. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3601 Registered: May-05 | Its too bad Densen isn't readily available here. I think it would do very well. A bit more expensive than most of our budgets, but I know a few of us would stretch the budget a bit for it. Lifetime warranty too. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2882 Registered: Jun-07 | Dan L - I am glad you got to hear some Canadian made amps as I do feel they present a different sound than typical British amps. Not saying one is better than the other, but are different. Glad you liked the Bryston and Sim stuff. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the other demos. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11556 Registered: Feb-05 | Roksan and Creek both make great amps. The Destiny is quite special and the Evolution II is quite nice for outlay. There are a number of amps just outside of the budget that would give a B60 a real run, it would be just a matter of preference at that point. LFD and Sonneteer come to mind. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 442 Registered: Dec-06 | Hey Stu, Actually Creek is on my short list, and the dealer I am going to today carries it. However, I'm not sure he's got Creek gear to listen to. Being in Canada and being close enough that I could actually drive to Bryston's office, with their reputation for support, that's a big plus on their side of the ledger. It's good to know about the SST upgrade and that getting a pre-SST unit then for about $1,000 might make a ton of sense. Even perhaps a pre-SST B-100. Hearing how difficult Hall can be is not something I'd probably want to deal with. I'd still listen to Creek with an open mind though. Roksan is also on my dealer's list, but I don't think he actually carries it anymore. I'll ask. Interesting comment made by Soundstage! in responding to a letter. It appears that Bryston understates their power ratings big time, as the 100 may actually output 140 watts into 8 ohms. As for the B60 SST, its 60Wpc may very well be enough for your speakers. The only way I suspect the B60 SST may struggle is if you have a very big room or like to listen at extremely high levels. Our measurements of the B100 SST show that it actually puts out 140Wpc into 8 ohms and almost 200 into 4; the B60 SST is probably likewise conservatively rated. http://www.soundstage.com/feedback/resp119.htm |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3603 Registered: May-05 | There are no pre-SST B100s. They haven't been around long enough. To the best of my knowledge the B100 hasn't been changed since it was introduced about 5 years ago. The B60 is also conservatively rated. Bryston includes a check-out inspection sheet of their gear. Mine was measured at around 75 watts into 8 ohms and clipped at around 100. 4 ohms was higher. Those numbers are off the top of my head. The sheet is packed away in the box. Art's LFD and Soneteer mentions are also very good. I haven't heard either, but some people I respect a lot have nothing but good things to say about them. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11557 Registered: Feb-05 | McCoy Tyner - Illuminations |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 443 Registered: Dec-06 | One option is buying a B60 at a good price (used or demo) and then getting Bryston to put in their internal DAC, which to my understanding is a $1,000 option. I'd be giving up the Saturn in that case obviously. I really wanted to like and buy Exposure, but if it sounds like Naim then I guess it's not for me. Then again maybe it doesn't. I guess I'll find out soon enough. I can see myself buying a 2010s2 now and then saving up for a nice Bryston system down the road. But I won't make any decisions today. I used to go for auditions and buy on the spot, I'd get focused on brand A or B and rush my purchase, obviously a silly way to go about things. Now I've decided that any component I'm considering I first have to listen to, then mull it over for a few days, even if I love it in the demo room (and of course that must be a pre-requisite). I think it's just good to take some time and make sure I want it. I've never heard Sonneteer or LFD before. What is their sound like? I was under the impression that Sonneteer might be a little bit too laid back for my tastes. I would definitely have to go used with those two. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11558 Registered: Feb-05 | Nothing laid back about the Sonneteer. Inner detail in spades, aggressive yet never edgy. PRaT better than I've heard from any but the best Naim amps with much better timbre, imaging and a very 3 dimensional soundstage. The 50 watts that my Alabaster is rated at takes excellent control of the bass drivers on my DeVores. Last night I listened to everything from Yes to Renee Fleming and it was all splendidly rendered. The best I've ever heard Yes sound. I'm a real believer in the Sonneteer amps, their CD player...not so much. I haven't listened to LFD enough to give a detailed description of their sound, I like it...but if I liked it enough I would own one and not a Sonneteer. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2883 Registered: Jun-07 | Sonneteer definitely make fantastic gear and IMO isn't mentioned nearly enough. Dan L - Don't settle for anything less than what wows you now. If Bryston or of similar priced gear makes the hair on your neck stand up then buy used if you have to IMO. Buying something new just to get you by until you can upgrade is just a waste of money IMO. Or save first then buy what you really truly want. Just throwing it out there.lol |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 444 Registered: Dec-06 | I know Nick. I really like Bryston thus far, and buying right now is a definite option (as long as it's used). So I won't settle for anything else unless it sounds pretty much just as good. Or else I'll be selling that in a couple of months and that's getting old. I'll take a look into what options are available for Sonneteer, though I don't think there is much around these parts. Looking at their website it appears they don't even have a Canadian distributor right now. I would have to buy used, and I'm not sure there's a lot of supply judging by Audiogon and CAM. Oh well...I have one amp that I really like, and one amp is all I'm going to need. So I'm judging everything against the Bryston. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11560 Registered: Feb-05 | Sonneteer is very difficult to find. I have a local dealer. I would recommend going the direction that you are with Bryston, especially with your proximity to them. Great gear and excellent service. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 767 Registered: Jul-07 | Blue Circle also produces gear at a level commensurate with brands like Bryston and Simaudio. Quite a different sound, and many of their amps are a hybrid design. Price is also getting up there....their integrated amps start at around $2000 I think. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 506 Registered: Dec-06 | Here's an update... As much as I liked the Bryston amp, my audition of the Exposure 2010s2 was just as exciting. The source was an Exposure MCX CD player and speakers were the Tannoy Glenair 10. The amp was the definite budget piece in this setup, but did it ever sing! Exposure is known for PRaT and this system had it in spades. Very smooth and natural mids, the top end was just as sweet, the bass emphasized but also had great speed and definition. There was some bite and snap to the sound (eg. when striking the skin of a drum) and this (along with PRaT) is what I really wanted after not getting it in my own system. So I made a deal for the 2010s2 and have been breaking it in for the past two months or so with my Monitor Audio RS5. Overall things sounded pretty good and I was closer to the sound I wanted, but the RS5 hadn't won me over. The highs were a problem. Very bright, not in a way that caused me fatigue as I had many extended listening sessions without that problem. However, the highs are emphasized so much so that they obscure what is happening in the mids and bass. It really is quite overpowering. I decide to make sure the RS5 was broken in. I put 50 hours on them and they were a demo set. So I think I'm pretty good in terms of break in, but the tweeter's domination hasn't subsided at all. It's too bad, I thought the speaker did well in just about every other respect. Oh well, one more move... I decide to go back to Quad, to a speaker that has both a soft dome tweeter and a flatter frequency response curve that will hopefully tame the brightness and produce a nice, natural sound. I bought a pair of 12L2 from Lanemart on Audiogon. I had the Quad 12L active model for a bit and enjoyed the sound. I have discovered that the 12L2 does not sound like it's active counterpart, although there are similarities. As you guys may know I also bought a pair of Tekton 6.0, which I haven't tried yet. As for the Quads, a revelation! I can honestly say that I love these speakers!! The highs are smooth with no trace of harshness or domination over the rest of the mix. If anything I'd say the speakers are warm - bass is very full and thick, but at the same time quick and tuneful. I've never heard bass lines as clearly communicated as I do now. I've got my Martin Logan Dynamo sub filling in the bottom end and it's a big upgrade on my old Mission sub. I can turn up the volume a little more now and actually hear the sub. It doesn't muddy up the bass and also blends in well with the bass put out by the Quads. To me the most impressive thing about the 12L2 is driver integration. I'm not sure I've ever heard highs and lows integrated so well before. Hearing this now tells me that the RS5 (and many other speakers I have heard before) don't excel in this area. Music sounds like one cohesive performance, rather than a set of highs, mids, and lows that go together but somehow sound disjointed. I think it's pretty important for a speaker to get this right, otherwise it's not as much music as it is a bunch of individual performances pasted together. The Quads are also very natural sounding. I don't have a ton of live music experience, but I have heard a live piano quite a few times. I think piano can sound a bit thin on many speakers, but the Quad captures on the one hand the percussive attack of hitting a key and also the fullness of a note and the tone just sounds right. Bass guitar as well. Etc. Lastly, attack and decay are fantastic. Hitting a drum or plucking a bass string, there is a snap to the start of the note. Decay on cymbals sounds amazing...it either is left to fade away very gradually or if the drummer stops the sound then the Quad also stops on a dime. So I am pretty thrilled with the sound I'm getting now. It will be interesting to see how the Tekton speakers compare, since they are billed as sounding as good as speakers costing 3-5 times more. Time will tell. For now I think I'm getting great synergy between the 2010s2, Rega Saturn, the Dynamo and of course the 12L2. It's nice to finally listen to a system and not zero in on some aspect of the sound that I don't like, and then of course the inevitable scan of the Internet for a new component. I'll be comparing the Saturn and BD650 in the next day or two, for curiosity's sake, and might set up a thread in the CDP section for that. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2897 Registered: Nov-05 | I have 12ls for rears Dan, but I have tested them in stereo and they are a great speaker - like the rest of their family. Congrats on finding something that's working for you. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3617 Registered: Feb-07 | Good write-up Dan. Heard a lot of good things about the Quads lately. Makes me want to hear them even more. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3659 Registered: May-05 | I'm glad its all coming together. Exposure makes some very good gear, as is the rest of your system. Its all about forgetting the system and listening to the music. For me, the right system will do that, and the wrong one will constantly put me in sound analysis mode. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 508 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks guys. I'm probably going to trade in the Saturn too. Not for anything the Saturn is doing wrong, I just want the matching Exposure player. I will also be trading in my RS5, so I'll have some pretty decent money to play around with. I can either go with the 2010s2 (in the Apollo's league at $1,250) or the 3010s2 (in the Saturn's at about $2,300). I'm leaning to the latter, however if I would opt for the 2010s2 then I could buy a turntable as well. My choices in turntable would be among Rega, Thorens, Music Hall, or Cambridge Audio. With the 2010s2 I could always buy a DAC in the future (Bryston or Simaudio perhaps) if (when) I ever want to upgrade again. I think what might influence my decision is whether the CA blu ray player comes close to the Saturn. If it does then it may be unnecessary to step up to the 3010s2. In fact, maybe I'd have to consider not buying another source at all, and just going for a DAC to use with the Cambridge. Tough choice! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12057 Registered: Feb-05 | Another turntable/cartridge package that's not on your list is the Clearaudio Concept. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 510 Registered: Dec-06 | My dealer does carry Clearaudio. The Concept is more than I wanted to spend, but if it is significantly better then I would definitely consider it. How do the various brands mentioned compare? I know some of you guys are down on Rega for quality control lately, and Music Hall isn't the easiest company to deal with. So I am a bit more open to buying CA (which is in reality a Project turntable) or Thorens. However, I don't know anything about Thorens, I'll have to read up on them a bit. The first thing I will have to do is figure out if I really want the 3010s2. I will have to get stands as well for the Quads. I am leaning to the Reference 3A stand, since I really like it's ability to adjust for height. http://www.reference3a.com/stands.htm |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12058 Registered: Feb-05 | Any decent Rega would cost about as much as the Clearaudio. P3-24 + cartridge (Dyn 10x5 for example) + TT/PSU = More than $1600. Lesser Rega's aren't in the same league. You have a good rig, don't short change the analog front end, if you get one. Been there, done that. If you go the inexpensive route the Music Hall 2.2 is pretty good. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 511 Registered: Dec-06 | I guess some turntables come with cartridges and power supplies, while others do not. With the Rega these are options, while with the Thorens TD 295 for example (about $1,200), it appears they are included. However, I see a few Thorens budget tables getting some pretty poor user reviews online, including the 295. I guess I will focus on the 2.2 on the low end and the P3 on the high end if I decide I want a turntable. And the Music Hall 5.1 seems to come in between the 2.2 and the P3. But weren't you a bit sour on Music Hall in general and the P3 specifically, Art? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12061 Registered: Feb-05 | Music Hall as a company doesn't do much for me. The 2.2 is by far the best at it's price, however. It includes a decent cartridge and sounds good even without the external power supply. It also has a nicely damped platter for a metal one. The 2.2 comes with the same arm that used to be on the 5.1 which is markedly better than what comes on the ProJect Debut III and the Rega P1. The 2.2 is simply the best buy at the price. The P3-24 has very serious build qaulity issues and requires the power supply to get the speed nearly correct and I would argue that it's a crap shoot even with it. After living with one for a while, I decided to let it go. I'd rather do without than listen to it, and that ain't good. The Clearaudio Concept will be at a dealer near me soon and I will have a chance to hear it. I think it's going to be a winner. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12062 Registered: Feb-05 | Another tweener to consider is the ProJect RM-5 SE. Excellent arm and comes with a cartridge...just add external power supply and you have a nice analog rig. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 512 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks for the tips. I like the idea of the double plinth on the 5.1. The price fits in nicely with what I would want to spend. The issues with the P3 sound pretty serious, so I find myself shying away from it. I guess for me it will come down to the 2.2, 5.1, or Clearaudio Concept if I really want to step up. I'll look into that Project model as well. I don't want to take up too much of your time with turntables, since whether I get one now is still up in the air. But this discussion so far has given me a low, mid, and high option, so that's a pretty good starting point. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12064 Registered: Feb-05 | In the price range with the 5.1, I would take the ProJect RM-5 SE. Better arm by a good distance. You can always upgrade the cartridge later and the arm on the RM-5 will see you through a number of upgrades. Time to get ready for the game... |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 513 Registered: Dec-06 | I don't see that on Project's website, I'm assuming it is now the RPM 5.1 as they look pretty much the same. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12066 Registered: Feb-05 | http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/index.htm http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/products/rm5.htm |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 520 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks Art. That's a pretty sweet looking table and on my short list. I am now struggling with the option of the 2010s2 or 3010s2 CD player. The DACs in the 3010s2 seem to be very highly regarded by many folks online (PCM 1704), while the DAC in the 2010s2 is seen as about average. But perhaps it's better to buy the cheaper player and then use the money saved to eventualy buy a standalone DAC. The Bryston BDC-1 would be a nice upgrade one day, or maybe a Simaudio 300D. The Simaudio plus 2010s2 would cost just slightly more than a 3010s2, but perhaps the sound quality would eclipse that of the 3010s2. I can see a benefit in keeping the DAC and it's associated parts separate from the transport, and then there is also the technology (up and oversampling) used by Bryston and Simaudio in their respective DACs. This is akin to asking is the Apollo + $1,500 DAC better than the Saturn? |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 521 Registered: Dec-06 | Hey Art, when are you planning on hearing the Clearaudio Concept again? I'm thinking maybe the Concept is the way to go, it is purported to be very user friendly, plug and play as they say, with very little set up to worry about. Great build quality as well from a company that's well regarded for their turntables. It seems an ideal choice for someone who is new to turntables but also wants a quality product. Before I act I'd love to hear what you have to say about it. Thorens isn't well reviewed, you've mentioned Rega's problems, and Music Hall above the 2.2 isn't as competitive as they could be. My dealer also carries VPI, people seem to rave about the VPI Scout, but that's way over my budget. So this leaves either the Concept or the Pro-Ject model you mentioned earlier. I've got one question...the Concept seems to come with everything needed, though it states that a separate power supply is offered. Is the power supply necessary? Or is it similar to Naim, just an upgrade to a product that doesn't otherwise need it? I will also have to buy a phono card for my amp. It's an add-on option that can be installed inside the amp. But I wonder if an external pre-amp (Cambridge 640P, Pro-Ject Phono Box, or even a Phono Box SE ii or Simaudio LP3) may yield better results. If I go for the Pro-Ject table I will save a few hundred bucks that I can put towards a pre-amp. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14553 Registered: Dec-04 | How are the stands and placement coming along Dan? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3674 Registered: May-05 | I haven't heard Exposure's phono stage, but of the ones you listed, the Simaudio LP3 mops the floor with the rest. Another excellent phono stage is the Dynavector P75. The discontinued MK1 can be found used for reasonable prices. STO has a new one for $520. Just trying to give you some ideas for the future. Make sure you get a phono stage that's flexible enough to accomadate a variety of cartridges so future changes won't be a hassle. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3675 Registered: May-05 | The phono stage is very important, don't treat it as an afterthought. They make a huge difference in the final sound of the system, just as much as any other component does. The P75 and LP3 should mop the floor with the others, seeing as how it costs multiples of them. But you get more than what you pay for in them IMO. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12108 Registered: Feb-05 | Still waiting for the Concept to land at a dealer near me. Should be soon. I have not heard it yet as it's a new table. Stu is absolutely correct relative to the phono pre. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 522 Registered: Dec-06 | And I would guess external ones are usually better. Even just by the fact that there is less circuitry in the amp box with the potential to cause a bit of noise in the signal. Also, I'd imagine that internal ones are generally a bit more basic, with the main goal to simply enable someone to play their records easily. Thanks for the suggestions Stu. I will look into that Dynavector. How much of a downgrade would a Pro-Ject Phono Box SE ii be? Reviews on Pro-Ject preamps tend to be pretty good from what I've seen. The Pro-Ject speedbox looks like a very nice upgrade to a Pro-Ject turntable though. Allows the changing of speeds with the push of a button, and is an effective speed regulator. People indicate it does improve the sound. I'll probably get this if I get a Pro-Ject table. But this is an expense I'd avoid with the Clearaudio, which has a very nice knob to change speeds that comes standard. Nuck, when I visit my dealer next (should be in a few weeks) I will be picking up some stands. Will go either with Target or the Reference 3a stand I linked to earlier. Leaning to the Reference 3a at this point. I like the look and I like the ability to adjust the stand for different seating positions. http://www.reference3a.com/stands.htm Looking forward to it as I think the Quads could use a bit more room to breathe. Bass is very tuneful but often sounds a bit overpowering right now. I'm not sure if it's the speakers on the desk or I've not figured out the best subwoofer settings. I've been playing around with the sub a bit, but rest assured the speakers will be coming off the desk soon. Once I get everything settled I'll probably post some pics. Any thoughts on whether a $1,000 cd player + $1,500 external DAC is better than a $2,500 player? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12113 Registered: Feb-05 | Best bet is to keep the Saturn. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3677 Registered: May-05 | The Speed Box is a big sonic upgrade easily worth the $150 or whatever the cost is. I think it would be a waste of money if it was only a speed changer. The Phono Box SE II is a good phono stage for the money. The P75 or LP3 would be a very big upgrade. Everyone's ears are different, but they're definitely a class or two higher. Would a $2500 DAC/transport combo beat the Saturn? Not sure. It may sound different, but better is a preference thing. The Saturn's a great CDP. Unless its not getting the job done for you, I say leave well enough alone. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 524 Registered: Dec-06 | Stu, I may just go with a Phono Box II, and upgrade to the LP3 eventually. In the long run that's the preamp that I'd like to own. I need to cut the cost of this table down as much as I can right now though. I may pass on the Speed Box as well and purchase it a little later on. I still find myself leaning towards getting the matching player for my amp, but you guys are right in that I may end up regretting the move. Rather than just trade it in I will tread a bit more carefully. I will look to do an in home trial of the Exposure player and see if I like it in my system. Any comments on the Pro-ject 1 Xpression III? I know Art didn't think the Debut III was better than the Music Hall 2.2, but the Xpression looks like it may be that table with a different arm and cartridge, and an acrylic platter. The Concept and RM-5SE might be a bit too expensive. I'm not even sure that vinyl will be a big thing for me and I certainly don't see it coming close to CD. Therefore, something just above entry level might be a better fit for me, rather than going two or three steps above. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3679 Registered: May-05 | I'd keep the vinyl side of things simple until you're sure its going to be a regulurly used source. Why dump a ton of money it something that rarely gets used? If you find yourself playing more and more vinyl, upgrade when it makes sense. I have an original 1Xpression. Its an excellent table. Its far better than the Debut III and Music Hall 2.2 IMO. Not sure about different plinths (although I think its likely), but the tonearm and platter are far better. It sounds a good bit better than the Debut III I replaced it with. If you're thinking Xpression, factor in the price of a different cartridge. The Oyster is crap. I think the Ortofons the lower tables come with are better. The Xpression is worthy of far better cartridges and other things than the Debut and 2.2. If it were me, I'd get an Xpression and upgrade the cartridge (something like and Ortofon or Grado), and get the internal phono stage if possible. Then I'd look into the Speed Box in the not too distant future. It makes a huge difference. If vinyl proves to be something you're serious about, you can upgrade things one at a time. Looking at Music Direct's website, the Xpression isn't listed anymore. I wonder if its been/being discontinued? They have a new table coming out in March - RM1.3 for $500. It may be worth looking into. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 816 Registered: Jul-07 | "I'd keep the vinyl side of things simple until you're sure its going to be a regulurly used source. Why dump a ton of money it something that rarely gets used? If you find yourself playing more and more vinyl, upgrade when it makes sense. " I agree, and I'd even take it a step further. I wouldn't even start down the analogue road until you have your system settled and are happy with it. Even if you start down this road modestly, it will be a significant investment. And, I may have this wrong (forgive me if I do) but you don't seem like a half-way-is-good-enough kind of guy Dan. I'd ask yourself if you REALLY are committed to going this route, and why, as it will consume funds that could be invested into other places. Don't get me wrong, if you heard a good analogue rig and are excited about having that in your own home then by all means. It may end up being the bees knees for you, as it is for many others. I'm just suggesting caution, and going into it for the right reasons and with your eyes wide open. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 525 Registered: Dec-06 | The 1Xpression is still on the Pro-Ject website Stu, and on a couple of retailer sites that I checked out. I will call the local dealer that I plan to buy from to see if they have it in stock. Nice to know it's a good table, I will focus on it and probably leave it stock from the outset, but the first upgrade will be the cartridge and then the Speed Box. The reason I am looking at a turntable now is that I can trade in my RS5 and center channel, and the 1Xpression comes in at right about the value I think I can get for those. I'll probably have to throw some cash at the preamp and that's it. I've been buying a few records over the years, and also have a few from way back in the day. Vinyl has always been something I've wanted to get into eventually. Now I can do it without really spending any new cash, because of my trade-in. There really isn't anything else that I can trade in my speakers for, at least not that I can think of. I'll be getting stands for the Quads in a week or two and so they should be set up properly. For the time being I think things are done. My system already sounds wonderful, the best I've had it so far. I'm sure there are tweaks to be made though, but for now I'm very happy with the sound I'm getting and I've got these speakers to trade.  Eventually as you guys know I plan on upgrading my speakers, but I'm going to push that way out as there have been enough changes recently. I don't want gear constantly in and out of my system, that said I think I am already a bit addicted to trying new components. A well thought out upgrade is one thing, but constant change is something I hope to avoid. Stu, any specific reason you suggest getting the internal phono stage? I've gone with the assumption that an external one is better, plus there is more flexibility because one day you can sell it and upgrade to something better. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12138 Registered: Feb-05 | When Stu says the Oyster is crap he means it. You'll not have any idea how good the table is with that cartridge. When I bought the 1Xpression my dealer wouldn't sell it with the Oyster, it's that bad. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 526 Registered: Dec-06 | I'll see what I can do about the Oyster. I see that this table has also come with the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge. Not sure if that was in the past or if that's only in certain regions, or whatever the explanation is. I'll just have to see what the dealer suggests. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3683 Registered: May-05 | The Xpression came with different cartridges in different markets. I'm pretty sure Canada got Audio Technica carts at one point. I think the US gets the Sumiko carts because Sumiko is Pro-Ject's distributer. But I digress. A cart change should be mandatory on the Xpression. A local dealer who installed my Dynavector 10x5 said it was the worst cart he's ever heard. He's seen and heard a ton of them, so that's a pretty bold statement. He's an honest guy who already had my business, so no reason to exagerate. I suggested the internal phono stage because it keeps things simple, is probably pretty flexible, and probably cost effective. It doesn't take up any more shelf space and doesn't require any more cables. Its made for your integrated, and is most likely on par with the integrated performance wise. I don't know much about it to be honest. I have no idea what it costs or how it actually sounds. Exposure doesn't make junk, so I'm betting its no exception. External phono stages can sound better in theory. But I'd rather a good internal phono over a mediocre external one any day. While there may be some noise issues, there could also be the benefit of a common ground. All this is theroetical and there's no one way that's better than everything else IMO. Its the implementation of the technology. Keep in mind that the extra casing, switches, RCA jacks and power supply among other things add to the overall cost. So you could essentially be getting an inferior board (where most of the quality really counts) in a more expensive external phono stage. Bryston's internal phono stage (which I have in my B60) is a $300 option and it blows the doors off anything I've heard under the LP3 and Dynavector P75. Its a no-brainer option even if you're not too serious about vinyl. If I were to upgrade, I wouldn't consider anything under the P75. I'm assuming your integrated's phono stage is similar in value. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3684 Registered: May-05 | Also, the internal phono stage may sell on Audiogon if you take it out and upgrade. I'd imagine someone would want to try it out. I see other brands' internal phono stages being sold for decent amounts of money - Creek and Naim to name a few. Vinyl is a pretty slippery slope. Cleaning products, isolation and other tweaks start to add up without realizing it. I really like vinyl and think its worth it. Not everyone agrees though. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 527 Registered: Dec-06 | There's an Xpression that was sold on CAM that had the Ortofon cart, so I'm assuming that it's the one I would get. I may just stick with it for now, it's good to know that it's the weak link and it'll be the first upgrade I make to the table. Thanks for the explanation of the internal phono stage suggestion. I will try to research how Exposure's stacks up. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12152 Registered: Feb-05 | It'll be a while before I can afford the reference analog rig I want so today I put my money where my mouth is, per se. I traded my Apollo for an entry level table and phono stage to hold me over until I can get the big dog...probably a Clearaudio Performance SE. So I have another MH 2.2 and Creek OBH 18 on the way. By weekend after next I should be spinnin' records again. The 2.2 has a better arm than the Debut III and not quite as good as the Xpression. The plinth is as good and the feet better. It also comes with a more tolerable cartridge than the Xpression. The platter is very good, as it is a coated alloy which is pretty close to noise free. When I had the Acryl-it I wasn't sure that it was an improvement. I'll put up pics on another thread when it comes and share for those that are interested in an entry level table. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3687 Registered: May-05 | The Acryl-It wasn't an improvement over the 2.2's platter or the Xpression's? To my ears its a huge improvement to the Xpression's stock aluminum platter. The current Xpression comes with the Acryl-It. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12153 Registered: Feb-05 | The Acryl-it wasn't much if any improvement over the 2.2's platter. Also the 2.2's platter was better than my 1Xpression's platter. The original 1Xpression had a platter that rang pretty good the 2.2's alloy platter is damped with a spray on material and doesn't ring. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3688 Registered: May-05 | Gotcha, Art. I didn't realize the 2.2's platter was damped; I thought it was the same platter as the Debut, which rang more than the 1Xpression's. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 529 Registered: Dec-06 | Congrats on the table, Art. You know what you are getting into, and I'm about to find out! Should be fun though. Are you still going to audition the Concept? I might just go with the 2.2 as well, since I'd be keeping things with the same dealer that I've dealt with to buy the Saturn and Exposure and it would save me another $200 compared to the 1Xpression. A bit less trouble and less cost and considering that this is my intro to vinyl it might be the prudent move. The LE (ferrari red) looks pretty sweet, but I read somewhere that it's easier to sell a black table rather than a colored one (though the person I think was speaking of the Rega P3, which has tons of color options). Might be something to be cautious of. Edit: Just saw a pic of the white finish. Looks sharp. It may hide the almost inevitable light scratches that will appear on the black finish. I am still undecided about internal vs. external phono stage. I like Stu's rationale to go with the internal, the only problem is that I have to choose magnet or coil. I would definitely go with magnet now, but what if one day I buy a coil cart? Well, I guess I could just buy the internal coil phono stage, or an adapter of sorts that would boost the signal before it gets to the amp, or even a new external preamp. I guess those are my options, eh? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12154 Registered: Feb-05 | The old P3 in colors had the paint rub off very easily..that's something to be wary of. I will still hear the Concept but it's a ways off as the dealer has at least a couple of weeks before they get it. I will be aiming higher when I buy in the future. I had the Ferrari Red 2.2 the first time around and I sold it very easily. I bought black this time. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 564 Registered: Dec-06 | Hooked up my Tekton's today, no sub. First impressions are that they have better transparency and detail than the 12L2. There is a greater clarity of sound. Better imaging as well. The speakers cast a wider soundstage and it's easier to pinpoint where sound is coming from, whereas the 12L2 feels a bit more like the sound is coming from the speakers and is more boxed in. The 12L2 has superior dynamics and bass weight, and a greater sense of scale, which is to be expected as it's significantly larger than the Tektons. That said, I didn't expect as much sense of scale as the Tektons can provide. It's really very good for a speaker this small. Ultimately though, when I want to turn up the volume, they lack the headroom of the larger Quads. Maybe I should let them break in some, and I'll definitely use them on and off, but I also don't see the characteristics of a small speaker changing. So they will kind of remain a secondary speaker and eventually rears in a home theater, or maybe speakers for my PC where they'd get plenty of work. If they were as large as the 12L2 and could compete with that speaker in terms of scale and headroom then I could easily see them being the better speaker (in many ways they probably already are). |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12398 Registered: Feb-05 | Have you listened to your turntable yet? |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 565 Registered: Dec-06 | No, I just recently got all the cleaning supplies that I need. I'll be cleaning some records next weekend and then I'll give 'em a spin. Hope to do some listening on Saturday. The table is all set up though. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12399 Registered: Feb-05 | Good for you. Records sound so much better cleaned up. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 890 Registered: Jul-07 | Dan, didn't know you ordered Tekton's. Nice speakers. If they aren't broken in yet, they will get a little punchier as they get more hours on them. Of course, they will get better in every regard over the first few hundred hours. Put them somewhere where they'll get a lot of use, and turn up the volume. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 566 Registered: Dec-06 | Chris, not sure if you are aware, but they aren't a single driver model. Just a normal looking two way bookshelf with a driver that's probably about 5 inches. Amazing build quality though. Very solid. The speakers are heavier than one would expect. They are heavier than the larger Quad's. The drums at the start of "November Rain" really have some amazing weight and definition to them. That song can sound a bit congested on some speakers (a little bit on the Quad's) but with the Tekton's there was impressive clarity. |
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