Looking for a warm CD player to rid this bright mess

 

New member
Username: Sharneyadams

UK

Post Number: 1
Registered: Feb-09
Hi, first post but have followed these forums for some time.

I have the following system and it sounds very harsh and bright. The rega is a much more relaxed and pleasant experience but the Nad CD player its unbearable. Any help would be really helpful. I choose the Nad Pre Power comination and PMC's as my previous room was large.

Nad C541i CD player, auditioned for its warm delivery.
Nad C162 Pre Amp
Nad C272 Power Amp
PMC FB1's Speakers
Rega P3 with Elys 2

CD interconnects, Van den Hul BAY C5 HYBRID
Pre to Power interconnects, Monster 400Mk11
Speaker cables, Gale 400 biwire
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 11633
Registered: Dec-04
Hold on Sharney.

i dont see anything bright in the gear you have laid out there.
You say previous room, how was the sound there?
My guess from here is that you need to really reconsider room layout, speaker placement and room treatment before looking at gear.
 

New member
Username: Sharneyadams

UK

Post Number: 2
Registered: Feb-09
Thanks for a quick reply, the room has a pine floor with a rug which covers almost half of it and lots of sofas.
The sound in the previous room was even brighter than it is now.
I have tried lots of layouts, as its the sitting room I don't really want to start padding walls with foam.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 11639
Registered: Dec-04
SA, I just dont see any overly bright parts in your kit.

Help All?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2370
Registered: Jun-07
Ive heard all those NAD products and none of them I would consider even close to bright. Hmmmmm you try different interconnects? I am just digging here, but I am confused to why this setup is bright.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2371
Registered: Jun-07
I can't see PMC being a good match with NAD though either.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 9002
Registered: Feb-05
Bingo Nick.

When NAD is in a mismatch it can be bright. I found the NAD/Magnepan match I had to be bright.

Have you tried different cables with the CD player. vdH cables are not bright however they can be revealing.

Just as an experiment try any other cables you have and see what difference there is.

Gotta tell ya I'm not a big fan of having bunches of different brands of cables in one system.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13364
Registered: May-04
.

You don't have to live in a room with padded walls. In fact, that is probably one of the worst solutions to your situation. Not enough absorption will simply knock the life out of the music and still not solve anything. The solution for room problems is found in either stategic placement of a few efficient conventional treatment devices (ASC Tube Traps) or turning to one of the alternative treatment systems such as the ART Resonator Bowls.

Your first approach IMO should be to deal with the system you have and get the most from it before you conclude buying more equipment is the answer.

Buying "warm" this or that, be it cables or components, to cover up a problem is merely placing a BandAid on the wound, the wound is still there but now you have a big honking BandAid you're dealing with on top of the wound. Put another way, "warm" this added to "cool" that ends up being lukewarm all over.


My effort would be in speaker and system set up. Toe in of the speakers will only exacerbate the problems as will not dealing with system set up and resonance control. The rack or cabinet you have your gear sitting in or on will influence the sound of even a modest system.

Put "loudspeaker set up" in a search engine and pay attention to the "WASP" speaker set up. Remember where you sit is equally important to the sound quality. It's possible you are too close to a very reflective back wall which would benefit from some diffusion panels.

Why not give a call to a few local dealers to get their input? However, if they suddenly begin talking about new equipment before they've exasperated the options with your current gear, they have no better idea how to solve this problem than you do. Dealers should have loaners for cables and room treatments that will allow you to try a few options. This should give you some insight into how to go about the repair of the system's sound quality. $300-500 spent on set up accessories is money more efficently spent than $1- 1.5k in new gear in most cases. Speaker and listening position set up are free. The solution is getting the best out of what you have now and then re-evaluating the system after it is operating at its very best.


.
 

New member
Username: Sharneyadams

UK

Post Number: 3
Registered: Feb-09
I chose all the components for their warmth I don't really know what to do, I'll try swapping the cables, I had replaced them with the ones I have now to try and tame things down a little.

Can anyone recommend a cable I can use throughout the system, or dare I say it replace the PMC's maybe which I love.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 9004
Registered: Feb-05
The PMC's are the best part of your system. I would replace everything else before I replaced them...however that's me and perhaps you aren't as fond of their sound as you thought. There are a number of good cable manufacturers. One of the least expensive options is Blue Jeans cable.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/

I know a number of folks here and on other forums who use them and swear by them.

I use all van den Hul but that cost an arm and a leg (still missing that damm leg).

Jan's suggestion around speaker placement is huge. I've been experimenting with placement with my Rega speakers. A move relative to toe in of less than 1/2 inch makes a huge difference. They go from being a bit aggressive to just a bit too warm and fuzzy in just a fraction of an inch. Dialing in the speakers is important.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2373
Registered: Jun-07
Everyone has great advice so far SharneyAdams. I also highly agree with Art's comment about the PMC speakers being the best thing in the system. Hands down IMO. A miss match in synergy can cause systems to sounds horrid in many many ways. Work on doing the WASP speaker setup, trying new cables, and if that fails I would ditch the NAD equipment.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 11642
Registered: Dec-04
I have never heard a NAD sound shrill before. Huh.

The speakers are very nice.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3189
Registered: May-05
I agree with pretty much everything that's been said. I'd like to add...

This is a classic reason why the speaker first logic is wrong. What you've essentially done is put a VW GTI engine and transmission in a Bentley Contental GT. The GTI engine may be a good performer at its price, but belongs no where near a Bentley chassis. No how, no way.

PMCs are ruthlessly revealing. They'll reveal every little flaw of anything connected. I wouldn't pair up the FB1s with anything less than a Bryston 4BSST and BP6 pre-amp. Not due to power, but due to sonic purity.

What throws things off a bit is that the P3 sounds acceptable (if I understand you correctly). Maybe something's wrong with the CD player?

I'd experiment with speaker placement some more. Why not? Its free.

If you bought the whole package from one dealer, I surely wouldn't trust anything they have to say. Unless of course if you didn't listen to their advice and insisted on the combo. Any dealer should know that the FB1s are far too much speaker for the NAD gear.
 

New member
Username: Sharneyadams

UK

Post Number: 4
Registered: Feb-09
I'd like to thank everyone for there help, from all your suggestions I guess the term garbage in, garbage out may be the problem and that I possibly won't go back to that dealer again.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13367
Registered: May-04
.

I don't know that blaming the dealer is a realistic approach to this issue. You auditioned the CD player and you chose to buy it. Your op says you found the NAD player to have a warm presentation. NAD CD players with NAD amplification should give a reasonably "warm" sound. I assume the dealer had a return policy.

If the CD player doesn't give the same sound quality as the analogue gear, that's pretty much to be expected.

The only item I see in your equipment list that has consistently been labeled other than "warm" would be the speakers. Their essential sound, if I remember correctly, is taken from a studio monitor design. If that's the case, you can view their presence in the system one of two ways. Either they are showing you the inherent limitations of the signal by being ruthlessly true to the input or they are themself an inherent limitation that imposes a personality you now find less than charming.

You certainly should not be tied down to any one dealer, but I can't say I think you should be blaming the dealer for a decision you made.


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 11645
Registered: Dec-04
The PMC's are not bright themselves, fed something good to reproduce.
But like Stu said, these are ruthlessly revealing speakers in any configuration.

Big league speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3192
Registered: May-05
Maybe my stating to not trust the dealer came off more extreme than I intended. I was saying that if the dealer thought NAD amplification was good enough for PMCs, I don't think very highly of their approach to system building. Those speakers cost more than the rest of the system combined.

Balance is most important, Daniel-San.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Dudywoxer

ScunthorpeUK

Post Number: 76
Registered: Mar-06
the only ''bright'' sounding bit of kit in that list is the Rega Cart, yet that is found to be acceptable. The only kit thing that I would swap initially, depending om the lenght of speaker cable is some 4mm2 copper cable and see what that does. Other than that it sounds more like a room thing than kit based.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13368
Registered: May-04
.

"The PMC's are not bright themselves, fed something good to reproduce.
But like Stu said, these are ruthlessly revealing speakers in any configuration.'



To begin with I would say the terms "bright", "warm" and a few others are overused and overly misunderstood. We've proven that on this forum when we've asked for the interpretation of terms such as "warm" and "bright" and "laid back". I didn't say the PMC's were "bright" though I did say they have never in my experience been described as "warm".

Not everyone would agree Thiels are "bright", which they are not in the true sense of the word*. Fewer of us would disagree the Thiels do not require careful system matching and system set up. One listener's "agressive" is another person's "highly detailed". I've heard too many clients to remember say a speaker I thought was less than kind to the music was a speaker that in the showroom they preceived as "clear". Whatever the terms used, at real world prices, it is often very difficult to separate the two extremes.



What I see here is a common mistake made by many buyers. A speaker that requires careful system matching has been put together with a too simple idea of how to go about that task. As the title to this thread reads; "Looking for a warm CD player to rid this bright mess".

I get the feeling this was the overriding attempt in this sytem in the first place. Whether the idea of pairing "warm" with "bright" was the op's idea or the store's suggestion we'll have to find out from the op. However, how often do we see this being the approach taken when pairing speakers or CD players, amplifiers, etc. that we find attractive in one sense with other components in an attempt to placate what we find less than desirable about our new child? "Warm" with "cool", "soft" with "hard", "tight" with "loose", etc. How often are those pairings found to be less than ideal once the glow of the purchase has worn away?



BandAids are BandAids whether they come in round or junior size or have The Little Mermaid printed on their top side. In hifi the wound is not going to heal on its own no matter how big or what color the bandage you apply.


Therefore, if the speakers are not "bright" - such a bad word - but are "revealing", which way do you choose to look at the alternatives? The alternatives being; "Either they are showing you the inherent limitations of the signal by being ruthlessly true to the input or they are themself an inherent limitation that imposes a personality you now find less than charming."

Any component or speaker that demands careful system matching will constantly place its owner in the same situation as we apparently have here. I kow where I've seen this sort of situation lead in all too many systems. Soon the upgraditis of new components and cables wears off because nothing truly corrects the first misstep and finally the listener gives up in frustration and moves on to another pursuit.

If you want "this", you'll have to live with "that". Not a bad compromise IMO if the "this" and the "that" compliment one another. A serious problem IMO when they are meant to downplay the flaws of the other.



I would still suggest some value can be found in the combination of equipment described in this thread. Set up and tweaks can go a long way toward moving any system in one direction or the other without applying bandages, just ask MW. For the moment however, let's set that aside and assume the system is operating at its best - which I just don't think this system is due to the room if nothing else - and think through the alternatives the op or one of us will face in the same situation.


If we agree the speakers exceed the abilities of the electronics, what is the real world solution? "Real world" meaning this is not someone else's money you get to spend. Do you remain tied down to a speaker that is "too good" for the system you can afford or do you change out the speakers for a more synergistic pairing that can move forward in slow upgrades without the boat anchor of forever living with a demanding miscue?


*bright, brilliant: The most often misused terms in audio, these describe the degree to which reproduced sound has a hard, crisp edge to it. Brightness relates to the energy content in the 4kHz-8kHz band.

It is not related to output in the extreme-high-frequency range.

All live sound has brightness; it is a problem only when it is excessive.


warm: The same as dark, but less tilted. A certain amount of warmth is a normal part of musical sound.

dark: A warm, mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency. Compare "light."

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index2.html



If we are truly pairing "warm" with "bright" we are twisting the frequency response and personality of the system into a soft pretzel. One does not even out the other.


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 509
Registered: Jul-07
I had a similar problem to this, and it also led me to my original post on this forum a few years ago. Of course, what ended up working for me may not work for you, as our setups are different, and the room is a huge part of the equation as has already been stated. Having said that I'll offer this. I have that exact cd player (541i) and in the end it was about 75% of my problem. I changed room setup, speaker placement, and cabling, and it made only a minor different. I replaced the cdp and boom, problem solved.

I know most don't consider NAD gear "bright", but that cdp can be. I was using a NAD amp as well, but the cdp was more the issue. If I was you I would do three things. Play with the room setup (speaker placement, treatments, etc), I'd add some acoustic isolation to your existing gear (new rack, or something cheap and effective like isonodes, or other similar product, under each piece of gear), and I'd find a dealer that will let you do an in-home demo of a top knotch cdp. The first two won't cost you much, and the third should be free.

That might at least help reveal the nature of the issue for not much time or money.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2044
Registered: Nov-05
Sharney, are you hearing bright or hearing grain?

I've heard PMC (can't recall which ones) and I had the C162/C272 with a NAD C542 and there was nothing in there that I could call bright. The C542 was maybe a bit grainy, but that's it. If I only had two words "warm or bright" to describe the sound I'd have to choose warm. And I don't think your problem is the speakers with the Nad amps, they certainly have power and are capable, though sure, other stuff can make those FB1's more involving - maybe the CDP is the culprit. Maybe the shelving (glass or timber etc), - maybe the room.

Try any advice given previously - it's all good, also try to borrow another cdp. One other thing, sometimes people can consider clean, clear highs to be bright when the possiblity is that the sound is really quite accurate. We all have different ears and tastes. If we were all the same choices would be easier and so would be dealing with these problems. That's my two cents worth.
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