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Buyers Remorse, Paradigm Monitor 11 V3

 

New member
Username: Mesaabi

Dothan, AL

Post Number: 1
Registered: Mar-05
Good Day, I just purchased a pair of Paradigm Monitor 11 V3 along with a Paradigm PS-2100 Sub. I paid less than $1,500 US for both new. The dealer here is quite small and was elimianting many itesm in their show room. I listened to them along with Studio 60's but when I heard them at the dealer, the 11's sounded better. Now I am home it seems different. Some recordings sound just awesome, such as Allison Krauss Live or Lee Ritenour Wesbound. Others seem like they are being played through a mud puddle. Am I nuts or what? Also does it help using the Sub High By Pass Filter?
 

Anonymous
 
I don!t know what other equipment you have but if you have very good equipment the down side is that any flaws in recordings or sources will be more noticeable. I have found that some cds can sound spectacular and others can be alright, not so good or lousy even though I like the artist and they are very good. It must be the way they are recorded.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 379
Registered: Oct-04
You might want to consider changing the source. I had a generic Panasonic DVD player and upgraded to the Denon 2910. The differences were dramatic, not so much in the good recordings, but in the bad ones.
 

New member
Username: Mesaabi

Dothan, AL

Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-05
Good Day, Thank you for help!!! I am using a Carver Integrated Amp with a Sony ES CD Player. The speakers were an upgrade from Bose 301's.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

Post Number: 126
Registered: Feb-05
with these speakers, great recordings will sound great, and poor ones will sound bad. With the bose, you would have never noticed the difference. (all bad sound IMHO)
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 102
Registered: Jan-05
Kano- Out of curiousity why is that the case? If you utilize a digital out, how much difference can there be?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 51
Registered: Dec-04
How much use have the new speakers had yet?

Much nonsense is talked about 'burning-in' interconnects and speaker wire - but with loudspeakers it can be a real effect! Seems to vary between makes as to how long it takes, from an hour to several weeks of continuous play.

My newly purchased Castle speakers took about a week of running before they started sounding really good.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 103
Registered: Jan-05
Ehh forget what I said, but it would still be more effective use of money to get an outboard DAC.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 382
Registered: Oct-04
I didn't expect to see any, but it's there, more dynamic range in the surrounds, less background noise in all formats.

You're right that all it's doing is reading the digital audio layer off the disc and sending it straight to the receiver, so I was surprised there was a difference too. I changed my optical cable (from Monster), but that really should make no difference.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Gordon,
Don't believe for even a second that the reason the new speakers sound bad on some recordings is because the recordings are bad and the speakers reveal that. Thats bull. They sound bad because they are not a time/phase aligned speaker. Simple as that. My speakers are time/phase aligned and to date, I have yet to find a single recording that sounds bad on them. And I have several that by all means SHOULD sound bad: REO Speedwagon, Old Beach Boys originals, Beatles originals, Elvis, Everly Bros, Janis Joplin, Badfinger, etc. They all sound very listenable and very musical.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 96
Registered: Jun-04
One time I auditioned a pair of (time coherent) Meadowlarks, and had the same experience as Maui. I went to a store on the spur of the moment and showed up without any CDs, so the salesman decided to play me some non-hi-fi recordings. We listend to some old ELO and it sounded great. Yes, the hi-fi stuff that we got to later (couldn't resist) sounded great too, but it made me realize that time coherent designs are about musicality.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11
Registered: Feb-05
Since there are bad recordings it follows that they should sound bad or your speakers are not very accurate. Time/phase aligned speakers are not a new phenomena. They can indeed sound very good as can many other design philosophies. But as with so many other designs they are not the be all end all for everyone. I currently own Paradigms because that is what I can afford and I enjoy them very much. I have heard almost every time/phase aligned speaker design out there and some are very good and others not so. But when I can buy my favorite speaker it will be a ProAc as no other speaker I have heard comes closer the real thing. I attend live Jazz, classical, and blues concerts frequently and feel that I have a good ear for sound. As recording quality varies greatly from magnificent to horrific so to should the sound if your system is accurately reflecting the source material.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 97
Registered: Jun-04
That's true, time/phase aligned speakers are not a new phenomena - most great designs have been around for a long time. Music consists of pitch, loudness and timing. If the timing is altered, then your missing a big piece of the music. But that's my thing, so as you said, they're not the be all end all for everyone.

ProAc's are great speakers, but I've moved over from a pair of Studio 100s to a pair of Sequerra Met 7's. I recently realized that a recording engineer that I know here in New York has also switched from ProAc to Green Mountain Audio (I found out when I saw his quote - it's the first one in the Europa literature). In my experience the Sequerras are very accurate, and I'm sure any engineer who used GMA will say the same. I've also mastered on Duntechs, which are time coherent - and very accurate.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still a fan of ProAc, I know somone with a pair of ProAc floorstanders hooked up to a pair of Pass Aleph monoblocks, and that system sounds amazing!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Divin11112000

Michigan

Post Number: 19
Registered: Dec-04
I purchased a pair of Klipsch RF-35's and I feel that they reveal some bad recordings. I have a Metallica cd which I cannot play on my system due to a hissing noise that is heard in the back track of the recording. You cannot hear this on any other cd and I've heard it not only on my own system but when i took the the place where I bought the Klipsch. This hissing was there on both B&W as well as Martain Logans. Only cd i have that has the hissing everything else is crystal clear.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

Post Number: 128
Registered: Feb-05
um... what maui said isnt eitirely correct. I have magnepan speakers, which are at the high end of the scale, and have been for years. They are time aligned due to the fact that all the sound is comming from a panel, and will let you know if you feed them with a poorly recorded CD!

If speakers have slightly recessed highs, you wont notice this as much. Maggies are extremly revealing.

My advice is to go listen to some high end planars and then tell me what your decision is.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
"Phase correct" and "phase coherent" do not mean "time coherent". The converse does. Magnaplaners, while certianly far more time/phase aligned than most multi-way systems, are not perfectly time/phase coherent. Magnapalners are extremely fussy about whats powering them and will reveal every fault in an amplifier thats not built to drive their difficult load. Lowthers, Fostex and other single driver speakers also are not perfectly time/phase coherent. But they get a lot closer than most. I did not say all recordings sound great on time/phase aligned speakers....some DO sound much better than others. However, no recording I have played on my GMA speakers sounds bad to the point where I cannot connect with the artists musical intent.
Chris........which Matalica cd is it that is sooooo bad you can't listen to it? I'll let you know how it sounds on my system.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Gavin says "with these speakers, great recordings will sound great, and poor ones will sound bad. With the bose, you would have never noticed the difference. (all bad sound IMHO)"
What I find interesting about his post is that, if you look on this forum you'll find a thread talking about what to upgrade first......amp, source, speakers, etc. Many here would benefit from reading that thread. Can't believe how many said "Speakers"
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Gavin says "with these speakers, great recordings will sound great, and poor ones will sound bad. With the bose, you would have never noticed the difference. (all bad sound IMHO)"
What I find interesting about his post is that, if you look on this forum you'll find a thread talking about what to upgrade first......amp, source, speakers, etc. Many here would benefit from reading that thread. Can't believe how many said "Speakers"
 

David Hophner
Unregistered guest
"Speakers" Allways first, get the ones you want and the electronics to fit them!
If you get the electronics first it might limit your choice at speaker.
That is if your a speaker fan and might have your heart set on a certain pair!
 

Silver Member
Username: Stealth_c

Dublin, CA USA

Post Number: 108
Registered: Jan-05
I have to actually agree with Maui. A good source can make even pretty bad speakers sound alright. A bad source can make really good speakers sound bad... Of course ideally, everything will balance properly and you wont connect a 5000 dollar pair of speakers to a 50 dollar dvd player and 300 dollar sony receiver.

Maui- Try Deep Purple; they are worst recordings Ive ever heard.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Interesting thread on Audiogon. Comments on the GMA Callisto speakers (next model up from the Europa's):
"11-04-04: Winegasman
I've had my Callistos for about 2 weeks now. They arrived with about 100 hours of burn in on them, and I've played them about 40 more since then. Right out of the box they sounded remarkable. Rhythmic, effortlessly tuneful, with engaging voicing on all instruments (voices, guitars, piano, as well as low-end instruments, cellos and bass guitars). Tonight I finally ran my low end test on them -- Beatles' "Come Together" on vinyl. This is incredible! I've got a smaller room (12 x 15) and these 6" woofers just filled it with Paul's cocksure bass lines. I'm not a tech-oriented person,so I have no measuring instruments -- I just know that I've listened to this song in many places, large and small, over many years (too many), on many systems, and it's never sounded this good. Real loud, with no break up, no strain, just pacing and pounding, and John's vocals clear and compelling. A couple of tracks later on Maxwell Silver Hammer I suddenly noticed these 2 acoustic guitars, quite treble-y, playing fast little chords, adding an angle I've never heard before and altering my understanding of the song, after all these years.

Besides great bass, incredible instrument voicing, and captivating pace, I have found one more surprising thing with the Callistos: at least 50% of the sibilance I've put up with for years is now gone. Just disappeared. I had been assuming that most of the sibilance I was hearing was inescapable, built into the source material -- WRONG! I'm listening to Norah Jones, to Indigo Girls, to Ella, Dakota Staton, and there's barely an ssssss to distract me. When I do hear it, it sounds natural, less annoying, and it's gone before I realize it.

It's funny, I've been meaning to post my initial impressions for the past 6 or 7 days, but whenever I have a chance to do so I decide to listen to music instead. The other side of Let it Be just finished in the next room. I'm goin' back for more....
Winegasman
Stealth.......I have"Highway star" on now....sounds fine. Rock on!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 99
Registered: Jun-04
That's great - it really explains Maui's quote about connecting with the artist's musical intent. That's always how I felt about how my speakers sound. It's neat to hear how an instrument is recorded or mixed, and think "Oh that's what they were going for!"
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

Post Number: 130
Registered: Feb-05
honestly the only way I would ever upgrade my speakers first was if they were a poor choice right from the start. If you have great speakers, you need quality upstream components to make them sing!

To put it in a different light, if you drove Thiels with a KLH reciever and KLH DVD player, it would sound like sh!t. You need to make sure that you have the electronics to support your equipment.

Maui hits the nail on the head.

(unless you have speakers from the company I mentioned previously. They IMHO are never tolerable to my ears reguardless of what they are driven with)
 

Anonymous
 
All you supposedly audio savy people are making all this noise about bad source this, that and the next thing. How about you all do some experiments using various bitrates of Mp3 encoded recordings, that will tell you a lot about the quality of the source versus your equipment and its overall effect on sound quality. I find that newer apple computers seem to encode very nicely and I am sure anyone with an audigy series sound card would also do just fine. LAME Inc's Mp3 encoder is great and provied quite a bit of control, but is unecssary if one is using a Mac with OS 10. If you know someone that has an H100 series iriver, that even has optical out so you can eliminate the cable quality factor.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Timbre is a multidimensionally perceived tonal attribute that differentiates tones of identical pitch, loudness, and duration. It is influenced by steady state waveforms, transient characteristics (the onset especially), and slower spectral changes over a series of tones. For example, a piano and a trumpet can play the note A440 of identical frequency, sound pressure, and duration but have clearly audible differences. Although it was once believed that the human ear is "phase deaf," in accordance to Ohm's acoustical law , more recent research has shown that relative phase has subtle effects on timbre, in particular when changing phase relationships occur within a continuously sounding tone.

For timbral sensation, the onset portion and other transient characteristics within the dynamic waveform are especially important. The onset is the opening portion of a tone, where the energy supplied exceeds the energy expended. Tones produced by continuous excitation of the vibrating source, such as a blown reed or mouthpiece, or a bowed string, have an onset that is followed by a steady state section, where the energy supplied and expended are in balance for the most part. Tones produced by impulsive excitation of the vibrating source, such as plucked string and piano tones, do not possess a steady state. The offset or decay, where the energy expended exceeds any supplied, concludes a tone.

A steady-state vibration pattern from a vibrating system cannot be attained instantaneously. Onset times of various instruments vary. The trumpet has an onset time of about 20 msec while the flute requires 200 to 300 msec. Even this short (in absolute terms) onset time of 300 msec is significant in perception of timbre. This significance was demonstrated in an experiment where the initial portion of a tone was removed. It was revealed that even experienced musicians had considerable difficulty in discerning common orchestral instruments.
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