Yet another noob "which receiver" question

 

New member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 1
Registered: Sep-04
I'm pretty new to the whole home theater scene, having just a bunch of pieces cobbled together from what my wife and I have accumulated over the years. Now all the cheap equipment is showing signs of failure each in their own way. So, everything is getting replaced a piece at a time.

I've been researching A/V receivers and have narrowed my list down to the Marantz 5400, Harman-Kardon AVR330 or Yamaha RX-V650. These are about at my budget limit for the receiver--I started looking at the next lower model in each line at first before realizing they wouldn't have the connections I'll eventually need.

I will be using it for both music and movies/TV. In the end the planned components will be the receiver, DVD/SACD player, a pair of VCRs, cassette deck, and PS2.

Any advantage of one over the other?
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 398
Registered: Dec-03
Chris,

A lot will depend on what speakers you are planning on using with this new receiver. Let us know, and we can go from there.
 

New member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 2
Registered: Sep-04
Speakers are pretty open right now. I'm looking at Paradigm, JBL, Athena, Polk, and Klipsh so far. I figure I'll pick the receiver then pick the speakers to match. I'll have an easier time finding stores to listen to speakers than receivers (so far only Tweeter has had the Yamaha hoooked up to anything--no luck with H/K or Marantz yet, just poke blindly at the buttons & watch the display change).

While I was at Tweeter this last weekend I did listen to Polks and Sapphires on the Yamaha & they sounded pretty good. They also let me listen to some Sonus Farbers just for giggles (way out of my price range) and I didn't like them as well as the Polks--go figure; I thought they sounded a bit harsh on the highs in comparison, but I really don't have a trained ear yet. Keep in mind at this time all I've listened to is a crummy Sony bookcase system & it's cheapo speakers. I can say that I heard more on the Diana Krall CD on the store system than I ever heard on mine.

I guess a budget target will help more. For mains I'm hoping to get away with about $200, center $300 or so. I really don't know for the surrounds. Beyond that I really haven't looked as hard at speakers as the receiver, I'm trying to tackle one piece at a time. Up until a couple of weeks ago the only speaker manufacturers I've listed I even knew about were JBL & Polk, most of the names don't mean much to me yet. Like I said, I'm a noob. :-)

Oh, as for what I'll be listening to on them, music will range from classical to heavy metal to folk--anything but rap or hip-hop. Movies are going to be just as wide a range from my blow-em-up action movies to my wife's romance stuff to tapes of our live perfomances.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Awj53

West Sacramento, CA USA

Post Number: 26
Registered: Jun-04
Chris, let your ears be the judge, on speakers and receivers! The receivers you mentioned above, all have their pluses and minuses, just like anything else! It is what sound good to you, and has features that you want or need!
I would advise you to think ahead a bit to any possible additions, or changes you may be planning, or even thinking about in the future, dvd, tv etc! Make sure you take these potential additions/changes in to account when choosing a receiver, up conversion, hdtv band with, etc!
Alvin
 

New member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 5
Registered: Sep-04
In an attempt to avoid hijacking another thread I'll resurrect mine. :-)

I've pretty much narrowed receiver choices down to Yamaha RX-V650 vs Marantz SR5400 (didn't like the H/K as much). landroval says the Marantz SR5400OSE has better components and sounds better than the standard 5400. One kind of vague question is how big of a difference is there? And does the Marantz sound differ that much from the Yamaha's? Does anyone know the general price difference? Availability?

Of the speakers I've listened to (Paradigm, Polk, Sapphire, Infinity, PSB, NHT, Mirage, Bose--just for the heck of it, Klipsch, Sonus Faber, Tannoy) I have liked the Paradigms and Polks the best by far. I listened to the Polks on a Yamaha and have read the Paradigms are a good match as well; how about the Marantz?

How effective is the Marantz speaker level configuration? Looks similar to the process I went through with my Alpine car stereo (and it worked). I like the auto setup feature on the Yamaha. I also kind of like the sound processing bells & whistles on the Yamaha, but it's not a main selling point (the only one being a night mode & both have that)--I rarely use the ones on the Sony bookshelf system they are so bad. I will be using the system for TV & movies more than music.

As for what I'm going to hook up to it. Initially a VCR, DVD, and PS2. I will be getting a cassette deck soon after the speakers. And in the end I will likely add a second VCR and a Hi8 VCR. Yes, this is pretty much filling up the connections available, but I have some ideas for the VCRs as only one really needs to get an output from the receiver (one S-VHS will be a player, the other a recorder, the Hi8 will only be used to watch tapes & feed the recorder S-VHS unit). I plan to replace the current DVD player & have a couple of options I'm investigating: a SACD-ready DVD changer or a separate DVD & CD player (one of which is SACD ready). If I can find one of these that can also handle DVD-A as well all the better. For video connectivity I understand neither will up- or down-convert component video, but my TV won't handle that anyway so no big deal--S-Video is what I'm trying to get all video signals on.

One thing that does concern me is ventilation. THe Marantz manual wants 8" of space all around. That won't happen in my furniture, it'll get about 1/16" on each side & probably 6-7" on top. I plan to get some PC case fans from Fry's & mount them in the space at the back to provide some air movement. Will this be a huge issue? Is the Yamaha as picky over that?

One other aspect is the FM tuner. Examining specs it looks like the Marantz has a better one; any one have any comments on the Marantz vs Yamaha tuner? I ask because I mainly listen to KKJZ & have extreme difficulty getting it in at home right now. At work I have no problems on a Yamaha TSX-10 (aha, the secret of my fixation on Yamaha is revealed!).

I guess the main concern I have at this time is that does the receiver really make that big of a difference in the base sound? At least between the two models I'm agonizing over.

Thanks for putting up with my thinking out loud & asking a bunch of dumb questions.
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 412
Registered: Dec-03
Chris,

I can't speak to the specific features of either of the units that you are asking about as I have not used either extensively. However, I can speak to the sound differences between the units and believe me, there are some pretty big sound differences. The Yamaha receiver definately tends to sound bright. Is this inherently bad...not necessarily, but you definately need to take care when choosing a speaker to go along with it. Conversely, the Marantz is almost at the complete opposite end of the specturm. Marantz receivers are known for having a warmer, more mellow sound. Once again, this doesn't necessarily make it better...you just need to know this when choosing speakers. So to answer your question, yes the receiver DOES make a big difference in the base sound...but these differences can be neutralized based on your speaker choice. Of the speakers you listed and that I have experience with, I think the Yamaha would definately go best with Paradigm or PSB (which I have and absolutely love!!), and the Marantz would go best with Polk and Klipsch. I don't have as much experience with those other speakers you listed, so I don't want to speak to how they sound.

As for price, I can't speak to that either as price depends a lot on where you live. Check out some prices from various dealers in your area, and if they aren't willing to give you a good price, then try some online places...just be sure to buy from an authorized dealer.

I, like you, have space issue with my NAD receiver. I use a small clip on fan and clip it on to my cabinet. It seems to work well. I can feel almost no heat coming from the unit after hours of use. I would think that 6-7 inches would be fine on top...I only have about 3 inches on top of mine.

Good luck and let us know what you decide!!
 

Silver Member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 658
Registered: Dec-03
Johnny is right about the matches of these receivers and speakers. At this price point the Marantz 5400 is a far better unit than the Yamaha so I would pick the Marantz 5400 and pair it with Polks. I don't know which Polks you have heard so far but stick to the LSi or RTi series and away from the Monitor series. The Rti8 is a nice mid-priced floorstander for example and can be had for $630 a pair.
 

New member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 6
Registered: Sep-04
Thanks. From all the speakers I've listened to I've liked the Paradigms and Polks the best (in that order, but the Paradigm being the Reference series had an unfair advantage :-) ). So that's really all I'm seriously considering now.

So, if I understand correctly the Yamaha/Paradigm combo and Marantz/Polk combo would be approximately equivalent from the choices I've cut myself down to? I listened to PSB Image B25s on a Yamaha yesterday and didn't personally care for them. I have listened to a RX-V750 driving Polk LSi6 mains & that combo sounded pretty good to me.

I can get the Yamaha locally for about $450 & have seen the Marantz going for that online (we'll see what the local dealer is willing to do).

Again thanks for the help, I've learned a whole lot in the last couple of weeks.
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 413
Registered: Dec-03
Chris,

Ultimately, you are the one who is going to have to listen to this thing day in and day out. If you like the Yamaha/Polk combo the best, then go for it. It is not a combination that I personally would go for (it sounds extremely bright to me), but if you like it, that is all that really matters. I would caution you though, if you think you like that combination, try to listen for an extended period of time. The Yamaha's often sound decent in the showroom when only listening for a short amount of time, but after awhile, the brightness starts to get fatiguing, and I would think that Yamaha and Polk together would sound pretty bright. Try to listen for 30-45 minutes and see if you still like it.
 

New member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 7
Registered: Sep-04
OK that helps. I guess basically what I'm asking is what exactly is the difference in sound between the Yamaha & Marantz? Not counting speakers. I really am torn between these two & don't want to jump just at a brand name for it's own sake.

Then a second question regarding speaker matching; if I pair up the Yamaha with Paradigms and Marantz with the Polks what would the end difference be?

I know I'm asking questions with very subjective answers, I just want to understand exactly what the differences are.

For example, to my ears the Polk & Paradigm speakers sounded balanced & clear over the whole range. In comparison, the Sonus Faber bookshelves seemed to me to have a very harsh high and the PSBs seemed bass-heavy & for lack of a better way of putting it flat & dead in the midrange. Several others I've listened to sounded like they had a blanket thrown over them (my wife's term, but it was accurate).

My shopping list at this point looks something like Yamaha RX-V650 or Marantz SR5400 for receiver; then Paradigm Studio 20 or one of the Monitor bookshelf or Polk RTi6. Must be bookshelves--no room for floorstanders.

 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 414
Registered: Dec-03
Chris,

Ok, you ask a lot of questions (which is very good!!), so I will try to answer some of them the best that I can. Like you say, these answers are mostly subjective, so unfortunately that makes it more difficult. To my ears at least, just talking about the receivers, there is a big difference between the Yamaha and the Marantz. As I said earlier, the Yamaha receivers, especially at this price point, tend to sound very bright. The best way I can describe it is like turning up the treble all the way. That may be overkill as an example, but that shows what brightness sounds like, at least to me. Think of a car chase scene in a movie. Lots of shattering glass, right? On a bright receiver, you would likely hear this shattering glass emphasized much more than on a warmer one. Make sense?

On the other side, the Marantz has a sound that is much more on the warm side. It will emphasize the lower sounds more.

There is also the issue of power. Many receiver brands, Yamaha being one of them, tend to artificially inflate their power ratings. They often rate their power with only one or two channels driven. Therefore, when driven with all channels at the same time, they don't even come close to meeting their specified power ratings. I don't have the exact figures, but judging by past Yamaha models, when the RX-V650 says it has 95w x 7, it likely would only reach about 65-75w with all channels driven. Marantz, however, is known to be fairly accurate with their power ratings. Even though it is published with a lower power than the Yamaha, in reality, it probably has more. Is this difference meaningful...probably not...but something to keep in mind.

Feature wise, the Yamaha has plenty...most of which I never would use anyway (i.e. the seemingly endless array of simulated surround fields). The Marantz offers less features.

As far as the speaker matching between those two combinations you listed goes, that is all a matter of personal taste. Which one sounds better to you? Which one more detailed? Which one sounds more full and open?

What receiver did you listen to the PSB's on. I have some PSB Image bookshelves and I have never found them to be "bass heavy" or "flat in the midrange" as you have described...paired with the right receiver of course. If you listened to the PSB on the Marantz (both of which are warm sounding), I can understand your observations. Marantz and PSB do not make a good combination in my opinion, so maybe that is why they sounded bad. PSB and Paradigm have a similar sound in my opinion. You say others sounded like they had a blanket over them. Once again, that may be because you were matching a warm receiver with a warm speaker. If that was the case, the results would be just as you described.

I hope I have helped a little. I truly wish you luck as it seems like you are very torn between these two receivers. In the end, trust your ears and your ears only. We on this forum can only help steer you in the right direction by sharing some of our own experiences and advice. Audition as much as you can and make your decision based on what YOU like.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Sound_advice

Post Number: 30
Registered: Sep-04
I'll make it short n' sweet...Marantz receiver/Paradigm speakers...I'm partial to Paradigm they certainly are great speakers for the money n' experts agree...and marantz vs Yamaha I give the Marantz easily the advantage in both music and Home Theater unless you get down to Flagship receivers such as the Z9 :-)
 

New member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 8
Registered: Sep-04
Sorry for the avalanche of questions. I probably am not as clear & specific as I'd like to be on some of them--a case of not quite knowing exactly what to ask at first.

OK, so Yamaha tends to emphasise the highs more than Marantz does while the Marantz does the opposite--or is it more of a case of Marantz is more balanced in its sound?

As for power, the Yamaha site says "7.1-Channel, 665W Powerful Surround Sound (95W x 7)" 95x7 does indeed equal 665. While Marantz simply says 6x90. Both specify a nice low THD across the full range. Assuming these are accurate it's so close it doesn't really matter & I'm sure both make plenty of power for my needs--with one caveat (later on this). The one spec I suspect is more telling is the S/N ratio & Marantz wins that one.

Features are nice bells & whistles, but not a huge concern--both support all the necessary formats & I'm used to having 2-ch or ProLogic only (yep, just ProLogic, not ProLogicII) and some processing programs that distort the sound so badly I never used them. So now thinking out loud again, I suspect I left myself get dazzled & distracted by that long feature list.

The PSBs were actually driven on an RX-V750 or 1400 (not 100% sure of which) & a Yamaha 5-disk DVD changer (not sure of the exact model). I don't know if he monkeyed with the settings or if it was truly a flat signal being sent. Of the speakers in that audition the PSBs were the best, just not a clear as I remember the Paradigms being; I'll mark that down to personal taste.

Now for my concern on power: Assuming Paradigm Studio 20s or Polk RTi6s for mains, will these receivers have enough power at 5.1 to drive them well enough to make them worth it? I am still not entirely decided on the speakers--but I'll move that torment to the Speakers forum.

In a nutshell I've gathered:
Yamaha = very bright with lots 'o electronic bells & whistles.
Marantz = solid power & cleaner, more balanced sound.
With that, yeah, the choice becomes more clear. :-)

I'm now leaning towards the Marantz--I think I'll have to set up another audition at the Marantz/Paradigm dealer & try to get that specific combo set up.

Thank you all for bearing with me on all this.
 

New member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 9
Registered: Sep-04
Oops forgot one last question. :-)

The Marantz SR5400OSE. I've read the somewhat vague literature I've been able to dig up around the net that boils down to "we used higher quality parts & gold-plated everything."

Now: what exactly is the end result of all that in the sound? Is is worth my while pursuing this option? From what I've seen it appears it's a UK model only (at least that where all the e-tailers I've turned up are located).

In the end I suspect it will exceed my budget anyway, but I'm sure you've noticed I like to explore all my options. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Landroval

Post Number: 689
Registered: Feb-04
I can recommend the SR5400OSE, it sounds considerably better than most basic av-receivers. It's an European model and it's not available in the US.
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 415
Registered: Dec-03
Chris,

I think you have got it. Your "descriptions" of each brand are right on, at least in my opinion. There is only one thing though. I think you are still confused on the power issue, or at least it sounds to me like you are. I read that same thing off the Yamaha website: "7.1-Channel, 665W Powerful Surround Sound (95W x 7)". You say, "assuming they are accurate". In this case, they aren't accurate, at least the Yamaha probably isn't. Just because they say that it is 95w x 7 doesn't mean that it will actually meet that with all channels driven. They like to inflate their numbers to make you think you are getting more power than what you really are. Yamaha rates their receivers with only one or two channels driven. So, when tested with all channels driven, like I said, it likely won't get anywhere near that. To give an example, when Sound and Vision magazine tested the Yamaha RX-V440 (rated 75w x 6) with all channels driven, it could only get 34 watts per channel...that is less than half of what it was rated at. So, if the same holds true for the unit you are looking at, if it says it will get 95 watts per channel, it will likely only get 45-50 when tested correctly.

On the other hand, when tested by the same Magazine, the Marantz SR5400 (the one you are looking at, right?), rated at 90w x 6, actually tested at 103 watts per channel...that's an increase of over 10%. These were tested by the same magazine, so they were likely tested in the same manner. So when you look at it that way (Yamaha likely only having 50 wpc and the Marantz getting over 100wpc), it makes the power situation look a lot different. The Marantz suddenly is twice as powerful...and that MAY make some difference.
 

Silver Member
Username: Landroval

Post Number: 690
Registered: Feb-04
The RX-V650 did output 5x47W and 7x41W to 8ohm at review of German Audio-magazine.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 11
Registered: Sep-04
I understand the power issue, just making sure. I recently did my car audio system & ran into the same thing so I know to take those ratings with a grain of salt or two. Sounds like Yamaha is as bad as, say, Pyle is with car amps. So, like you say Marantz looks significantly better in this respect now--110% rated power on all channels vs. 45% rated power on all channels. The 7x41W on the RX-V650 holds to this difference as well according to my calculator. Big points to Marantz. :-)

As to the OSE version, that's what I suspected :-( Since I'm in Southern California this becomes a moot point.

This definitely makes up my mind. I'm going for the Marantz SR5400 & forget about the few extras Yamaha offers (sound processing & extra speaker outputs).

I would expect the 90-105W will be sufficient to properly drive the speakers I'm considering--those being Paradigm Studio 20s or Monitors (Mini, 3 or 5), or Polk Audio RTi6. I may also throw Tannoy Sensys DC1 into the mix based on landroval's suggestion.

I have to thank you guys for shedding light on all this--two weeks ago receivers were just the magic black box that made everything go. Now I'm an instant expert--or at least a competently informed consumer. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 418
Registered: Dec-03
Chris,

I didn't want to say it before as I wanted you to make a decision based on what YOU liked and not what we liked, but I think you are deifnately making the right choice. I have come to trust Marantz as one of the great A/V receiver makers out there at this price range. It is a much more pleasing and "meaty" receiver than the Yamaha, in my opinion. You won't be disappointed. Good luck, and let us know what you decide on as far as speakers go..and share some of your "expert" knowledge with us. :-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 12
Registered: Sep-04
LOL. Now that I think about it, I think that's bascially what I have been after--what do you like about it & why? I guess it would have helped if I were more clear & knew what I meant to ask.

I looked again at the Marantz site & turned up 4 more local shops I'll call & see what they have; failing that, I'll most likely get one through accessories4less.

My initial impressions of the Marantz units I've been able to poke at have been they are much, much more substantially built than anything else out there on my intial list. I just wanted to be sure it was more than a really fancy, well-made front panel.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Sound_advice

Post Number: 35
Registered: Sep-04
Yami's are not quite like pyle, more like Orion they're not that bad but when compared to Marantz I think most would agree that Marantz is a step up like...lets say JL Audio :-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 17
Registered: Sep-04
Yeah, if they were as bad as Pyle, Yamaha would not have been on my shopping list; I just used an extreme example to make a point.

The "which receiver" questions from me are now at an end--I just bought an SR5400 today (probably the only one readily available in my area). Not I'll probably start asking "how does this work" or "why DOESN'T this work" questions. In fact, I already have one. My VCR manufacturer has about 7 codes listed; I'm not sure how to determine which applies. I guess just program in the first one & see if it works then work my way down the list?

Gotta stop by Radio Shack tomorrow to pick up a couple of parts for a cooling fan before I start hooking things up. Wish me luck. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 421
Registered: Dec-03
Chris,

So which speakers did you end up getting if I may ask?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 20
Registered: Sep-04
None yet, the Marantz tapped me out for now. This is but one of my collection of hobbies; I have an unfortunate habit of collecting expensive hobbies (all with champagne taste on a beer budget :-) ). My favorite speakers by far of the dozen plus I've listened to is the Paradigm Studio 20s. Right now I'm still using the old Sonys. Sigh.

Now for my first stupid setup question. I've managed to hook nearly everything up and it's working. EXCEPT video from the VCR. I have triple-checked the connections & I'm pretty sure they are correct. They are as follows:

On VCR there is a 75ohm coax video in; it gets the cable connection from the wall (no cable box). There is a matching out which goes to the TV. There is the standard 3 RCAs for composite video and L&R audio, a set for in and a set for out. The Out connections go to the VCR1 In connections on the Marantz. On the TV I have a 75ohm Coax for the cable with the Out from the VCR. I also have a single S-Video in and two of the 3-RCA sets marked In 1 and In 2; the In 1 will use the S-Video for picture when there's a signal. On the Marantz, I have the Monitor Out S-Video going to the TV.

I also have a DVD player hooked to the DVD S-Video & Digital-3; works fine. Also a PS2 on the TV S-Video and Digital-1; also works fine.

When the TV tuner is changed it will give me the picture from the 75ohm Coax output on the VCR, but obviously the sound no longer matches--it's from the channel the VCR is tuned to.

I would prefer to use the VCR as my channel tuner as it allows me to use the Marantz for sound processing--unless there's a way to accomplish this with different connections. Another reason I'd like to go this way is I will be getting a Harmony SST-659 remote to control thie whole mess & make it usable for my wife. I am assuming I'm better off using the VCR to tune channels & route through the receiver.
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 422
Registered: Dec-03
Chris,

I know that you have probably tried this, and I appologize in advance if it insults your intelligence, but did you switch the input of the tv to match the s-video out of the Marantz? If you are sending the VCR video to the Marantz, then that means the signal will have to go through the Monitor Out S-Video. So, whatever input on the TV you use to see the DVD player, also turn it to that input to see the VCR as well. Also, if you are trying to see the VCR through the regular coax, the tv must be on channel 3. Once again, sorry if this insults your intelligence, but that seems to be the root of the problem you describe when you say that the "tv tuner is changed it will give me the picture from the 75ohm coax output on the vcr, but obviously the sound no longer matches...". If you turn the tv tuner to anything other than channel 3, then you aren't getting the signal through the vcr any more, the cable tv is passing through the VCR to the tv and using the tv's tuner.

So, in short:
1. when you want to use the vcr through the Marantz, make sure the tv is set to whatever input you have the Monitor 0ut S-Video going through
2. Make sure the TV is set to channel 3 when you want to use the VCR as a tuner.

That should work.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 21
Registered: Sep-04
Yes. That is how I'm getting the DVD & PS2 signals. No offense taken, sometimes it's a stupidly obvious answer (at least once you're lead to it).

Now that I think about it, the VCR only has composite video & is attached to that; but the only Monitor Out connection I'm using is the S-Video. The DVD & PS2 are using S-Video connections to the receiver. So the connections look like this:

DVD---->S-Video----> |
PS2---->S-Video----> | Receiver -->S-Video-->TV
VCR-->Composite--> |

I thought I read that the Composite & S-Video were up- and down-converted, but that may have just been for the Yamaha I was looking at. I know the component video is not (thus why I'm not using those connections from the DVD). I think I'll try putting a composite video cable on there & see what happens.

This is what happens when you try to hook up a receiver after spending most of the day working on a car instead.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 22
Registered: Sep-04
AHA! I figured it out. Part of the issue was indeed a lack of a composite video feed. The other part I found is in the TV. It doesn't seem to want to have both the composite and s-video hooked up to the same input set. So I have the s-video on #1 and the composite on #2. This unfortunately means the TV must be switched based on the receiver setting, but at least it works and once I get the Harmony remote should be a moot point.

It sure helps being able to come back to the problem with a fresh(er) mind.
 

Anon Heredy
Unregistered guest
Chris, you should have read previous post pertaining to power etc. Some people here have not tested the receivers by themselves but were just persuaded by others to believe. Pls. read post below of mauimusicman to Johnny..

Johhny, thanks for the compliment. I feel I owe you an explanation. Power specs. Why do they mean pretty much nothing? Allow me to explain, k?
First, amplifier power is tested with sine waves. Sine waves swept in frequency from 20hz to 20khz. With me so far? Secondly, amplifiers are tested using 8 ohm and 4 ohm load resistors. Power is then measured and posted. Sounds fair no? Nope. Here's the problems. First, do we listen to sine waves? I don't. Do you? I listen to MUSIC. Is music sine waves? Hardly. it much more closely resembles SQUARE waves. Another animal completely. Second, do you listen to load resistors? I don't. I listen to SPEAKERS. Speakers are NOT a purely resistive load. Speakers are a very complex, ever changing REACTIVE load. See the problem? Amplifier manufacturers HOPE you don't. So, to cut this short, what does the "typical" Japanese amp do power wise with "real music" played into "real speakers"? Ya sure you wanna know? I can tell you do. Ok here goes. Your typical Japanese reciever ( Sony, Technics, Sanyo, Sansui, Yamaha, Pioneer,JVC, etc) produce as little as 1/10th their rated power and up to 1000 times their rated distortion when driving a real speaker with real music. Suprised? Thought so. Power ratings can be compared to auto horespower ratings. Lets say you have a 500 h.p. motor. Nice huh? What if only 50 h.p got to the rear wheels? Still feel good about that big motor? To me, it's just sucking gas. Another thing about "distortion" THD is the spec most often listed in the manual. THD. Hmmmm.....thd.....do they tell you if thats primarily upper or lower order harmonics? Nooooooo. Do they tell you if it's primarily even or odd order harmonics? Not a chance. Why not? Don't have to, thats why. It's very easy to make distortion specs look good on paper. All one need do is increase the global negative feedback loop on the amp. But, how does that sound? Like a typical Japanese amp: HORRIBLE. Higher feedback loops increase other, more audable distortions, but hey, the manufacturer doesn't have to print THOSE specs. Besides, they have guys like you.....only looking at the specs they DO show. Understand now?
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 427
Registered: Dec-03
Anon,

So what exactly are you saying? That posting you referred to seems to go right along with what I told Chris as Yamaha is a Japanese company last time I checked and they seem to fit with the mold of the "typical" Japanese company that mauimusicman describes.

Also, I have personally listened to each of the receivers that I spoke of in this thread and the power specs that I referred to have been published in very respectable magazines...I didn't just pull them out of my a*s
 

Bronze Member
Username: Claudermilk

Post Number: 23
Registered: Sep-04
I think I understood all that. I do know I'm not a critical enough listener (yet) to really care or notice about the slight differences between the two models I was choosing between. My one real concern there was under-powering the speakers I'd like to get & it seems like the advice pointed to Marantz over Yamaha.

In any case, the deed is done & so far I am liking the Marantz receiver; one big bonus so far is it's got a good FM tuner--I can now get my favorite Jazz station at home! :-)
 

Anon Heredy
Unregistered guest
Johnny,

If that's the case, why not consider testing it by yourself since other respectables magazines have it the other way around.

Chris,

Enjoy your new toy.
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 434
Registered: Dec-03
Anon,

You must not have read my posting clearly. I stated that I DID test these receivers for myself, at least for sound quality. My recommendations are based on my own personal observations from my auditions. If you are saying that I should test the power output myself...I didn't know that was possible without purchasing thousands of dollars worth of test equipment.

If you disagree with something I am saying, so be it...it definately wouldn't be the first time, but you never really say what exactly you disagree with. Also, provide some basis for your argument...provided that you have one. So far, the only evidence you have shown actually contradicted the point I thought you were trying to make.

What exactly do I have "the other way around"?
Here is a link to the power test report I refer to. Can you provide us with support of your argument?

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm
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