Like

Universal Healthcare

 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1241
Registered: Apr-06
So my question is, what do people think of Universal Healthcare?

My opinion: Opposed.

Reasoning: As Obama himself says regarding our economy: "I believe that America's free market has been the engine of America's great progress. It's created a prosperity that is the envy of the world. It's led to a standard of living unmatched in history. And it has provided great rewards to the innovators and risk-takers who have made America a beacon for science, and technology, and discovery..."

Applying that argument to healthcare, there is simply no way a bunch of bureaucrats in Washington can run America's healthcare more effectively than a free market system. Having a government run universal healthcare system would either compromise quality of care, cause the government to hemorrhage money, or potentially both.

Now don't get me wrong; I think every American should have access to quality health care. However, having it run by a bunch of simpletons in Washington DC isn't the way to do it. Given the fact that they're running Medicare into the ground, I simply don't have faith in their ability. On the other hand, I think market solutions like the "Walmart Plan" will bring access to medical care to more people than ever before. Four dollar prescriptions and forty dollar doctor visits are an impressive stride forward in the realm of bringing healthcare to affordable levels.

Now something that might be useful is if states overhauled their MediCaid plans to shore up some coverage issues, and work in combination with market based solutions like the Walmart plan. In other words, MediCaid should provide coverage for emergency events, and let Walmart and other low cost market providers handle routine visits, prescriptions, etc.

The other thing that could be done to help control healthcare costs is capping damages awarded via malpractice lawsuits, which would hopefully in turn significantly reduce malpractice insurance costs for physicians, which is a large part of the reason that healthcare costs have gone up significantly. To put it another way, exactly where do you think the money comes from when someone gets awarded a fifty million dollar settlement against their doctor?

Anyways, enough with my rant.
 

Gold Member
Username: Adddisorder

Palm Beach, Florida

Post Number: 6289
Registered: Jan-06
i agree with you, universal health care is another way for poor people to eat up our tax dollars and give our government the chance to screw something else up. not that our health care system is all around good it needs work like examples you provided. elderly and poor people need health care but not all the illegals that run across our border.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 17218
Registered: Jun-06
The pharmaceutical companies have us in a sling. They charge what they want and the doctors who are given incentives prescribe them. Then when the next generic drug that is developed to replace any said "prescribed" drug they push another. It's their way of dodging the system.




Malpractice insurance is indeed extremely high. Waaaaay too many bogus claims. But that's true for just about any insurance company isn't it? Auto, fire, theft, ect......


Again, this country is turning into a greedy one. Today while taking my kids to Hershey park we watched a woman try to step off a ride. She didn't wait for any help but jumped off herself. Her leg got caught on her seat belt and she tumbled. She got up quickly, looked around and then fell back down holding her ankle.

The ride was closed and she had them take her out on a stretcher, claiming there wasn't anyone there to properly help her out of the ride. Mind you she got in ok on her own.


I'll tell you this, the $50,000 she gets will raise admission costs next year, even if its' only $.50.



Now try and justify health care when they charge you $50 for a $.10 aspirin. My father is on meds for his heart that costs $75 a pill. One pill!!!!



Multiply that by the number of ppl in America in their twilight years on any meds and you see where I'm coming from.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1242
Registered: Apr-06
"The pharmaceutical companies have us in a sling."

The ones with "new" medicines still under patent certainly do. Of course how effective they are compared to older medicines is debatable, but consider this: if a "new" medicine is 1% more effective, but 10x more costly than an "old" medicine, doctors will still be forced to prescribe the "new" medicine, lest they face lawsuits.

"They charge what they want and the doctors who are given incentives prescribe them."

What is sad is that there are doctors so poorly paid that incentives from drug companies are meaningful income to them.

"Malpractice insurance is indeed extremely high. Waaaaay too many bogus claims. But that's true for just about any insurance company isn't it? Auto, fire, theft, ect......"

Yup, but if you wonder why the cost of medical care is so high, ask yourself how a doctor paying 200k a year in malpractice (not uncommon for an OB/GYN) plays into that.

"Again, this country is turning into a greedy one."

Greedy, lazy, fat, thinks they're entitled to something for being born, etc....

"Now try and justify health care when they charge you $50 for a $.10 aspirin. My father is on meds for his heart that costs $75 a pill. One pill!!!!"

Ahh the beauty of overhead.

Consider another case: a bum who is hungry and cold wants some food and a place to sleep. According to EMTALA, if he presents to any ER and says his chest hurts, they are required by law to run a full battery of tests on him and conclusively prove that he isn't dying of a heart attack before they release him. Who do you think pays for that, the bum? Or you with $50 asprin?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 17224
Registered: Jun-06
"Consider another case: a bum who is hungry and cold wants some food and a place to sleep. According to EMTALA, if he presents to any ER and says his chest hurts, they are required by law to run a full battery of tests on him and conclusively prove that he isn't dying of a heart attack before they release him. Who do you think pays for that, the bum? Or you with $50 asprin?




Then what would the difference be if there was a nation wide health care system? We have laws that say we can't deny health care to those who wander off the streets in need. Be it an illegal immigrant about to give birth or someone who cuts a finger off cutting grass. They know where the grass is greener and that's why they jump the fence and milk our cow.


I pay for health insurance for my children and myself. Been paying for 15+ years. I deeply lacerated my thumb one day on my bandsaw and in fear of losing it ran every red light to get to the emergency room. 4 hours I waited b4 they attended to me. I can't tell you how many ppl who walked in with a coughing child who went straight through without even showing ID. There I was, a paying health care participant, holding my thumb together with a bl00dy dish towel, watching 4 hours worth of runny nosed kids come and go. Most didn't speak English.

I had 12 stitches, 2 X-rays, one tetanus shot. Total of about 15 minutes. My bill was $1800. I pay $85/week for insurance. Then I paid the deductible. Then I paid the surcharge for using the emergency room. I saw the itemized bill. $900 was for the two X-rays. Two freaking pics. *Snap snap* $200 for the PLEASURE of waiting 4 hrs in the emergency room. Had I waited in another it would not have applied. $200 for the shot.*Shakes head* Balance was listed as "misc". Well they did wrap it nice and give me a roll of gauze. Seems fair for an additional $500.



Of course I tried writing to the hospital many times. Never any response. You know they actually have someone on staff at Virtua at Vorhees whos' sole purpose is to greet ppl at the door? Not enough ppl to look at patients but pay someone to say "Hi". I walked up to him asking for help and he backed away asking if I had insurance. That's when they told me to go sit. I think if I had a Spanish accent and mumbled under my breathe I would've been home stitched up in 1 hour or less, for free.





/rant.




For now.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Vt_ahole

USA

Post Number: 81
Registered: Jun-07
go watch John Q
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1243
Registered: Apr-06
"Then what would the difference be if there was a nation wide health care system?"

Take a guess as to what would happen if everyone knew they could go to the doctor or ER anytime they wanted for free. Wait times would go through the roof and patient care would suffer...

"We have laws that say we can't deny health care to those who wander off the streets in need. "

That is part of the problem: viewing health care as a right, rather than as a commodity. To become a doctor, it takes years and years of hard work and a heck of a lot of money. Why are they expected to work for free as a result of their labors?

To sum up my philosophy without writing everything out though...
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2007-winter/moral-vs-universal-health -care.asp
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 17226
Registered: Jun-06
Looooong article.




Look, in a sense we do have health care for everyone in our country(and even others). Nobody gets denied, right? All it means is that the ones who pay for it shoulder the burden for those who don't. As the number who don't increases the harder it is for the ones left who do. This country is getting diluted and illegal immigration is only one cause.

On another note I understand the use of co-pays in my insurance. It's there to stabilize the frequent visits from parents who have their children looked at twice a week regardless of health. Obviously a "free" health care program would indeed encourage that. I'm just tired of being one of the honest ones who's health care suffers because of the ever increasing numbers of ppl flooding the system who don't pay. We're on the same page with that I think.

The question is how do we make it equal pay/benefits for ALL legal Americans? Yeah Americans have a heart, great, and we're losing our standards because of it. I don't want to pay for some aging wannabe's nose job anymore than I want to wait 4 hours behind sneezing kids from another country while I may or may not lose my thumb.

Put it this way. My x-rays were $900. Let's say that machine costs $1,000,000. If it's even only used 10 times/day (yeah right) that's $328,000/year. In 3 years or less it's paid for. Same scenario is the Walt Whitman bridge close to where I live. Last I checked it was $8 to cross. Over 400,000 ppl/day use that bridge. Do the math. Even with added expenses and hidden costs these revenue "engines" are being exploited. You HAVE to cross that bridge just like you NEED insurance. That's the fury in it all.


And as far as the meds, there's a reason there's a drug store on every corner in every town and increasing every day. My insurance company encourages the use of generics, why wouldn't they? I want to see the prescribing doctors and insurance companies in a celebrity death match.



I'd pay to see it lol. Wait, I already do.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1246
Registered: Apr-06
"Looooong article."
Its a complex issue, what can I say.

"Look, in a sense we do have health care for everyone in our country(and even others). Nobody gets denied, right?"
Nobody gets denied in an ER. People get denied elsewhere all the time (which push them towards the ER).

"All it means is that the ones who pay for it shoulder the burden for those who don't."
Thats part of the problem, yes.

"On another note I understand the use of co-pays in my insurance. It's there to stabilize the frequent visits from parents who have their children looked at twice a week regardless of health. Obviously a "free" health care program would indeed encourage that. I'm just tired of being one of the honest ones who's health care suffers because of the ever increasing numbers of ppl flooding the system who don't pay. We're on the same page with that I think."

Yup!

"The question is how do we make it equal pay/benefits for ALL legal Americans?"

If it were my ideal? Push insurance companies towards plans *only* for emergencies and needed (as opposed to elective) surgeries and push a moderate deductible to deal with the problems of moral hazard. Allow what is called "discrimination": eg let the sick people pay more than healthy people. We penalize bad drivers after all... Most importantly, let it actually be a free market, and competition will force the prices to fall.

Meanwhile for doctors visits and meds, let people individually shoulder those costs. If you can't afford a $40 doctors visit at Walmart or their $4 prescriptions, too bad for you. Again though, a free market and competition will force pricing down, while letting doctors practice profitably, which will in turn increase the number of doctors.

As far as the homeless and those who can't afford even a $40 doctors visit, that is what charity, both privately funded and government funded are for.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1247
Registered: Apr-06
"Put it this way. My x-rays were $900. Let's say that machine costs $1,000,000. If it's even only used 10 times/day (yeah right) that's $328,000/year. In 3 years or less it's paid for."

Would you prefer if it said:

Doctor Looking At X-Ray: 50
Depreciation cost on X-Ray machine: 100
Bum's ER Treatment: 400
Cost For Billing You/Running A Call Center: 25
Cost For Taking Losses On MediCaid & Medicare Patients: 325
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 17227
Registered: Jun-06
Either way it's a complex way of breaking down the bottom line. It's easier to force the able to pay for the masses that aren't. Problem I see is that the side of the able is getting smaller and smaller.


Like it's been said b4. This country is being divided into two groups. The rich and poor. The middle class is going to become extinct.



The late George Carlin:


The upper class: Does none of the work, pays none of the taxes.

The middle class: Does all of the work, pays all of the taxes.

The lower class: Are just there to keep the middle class showing up at their jobs.


 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1249
Registered: Apr-06
"It's easier to force the able to pay for the masses that aren't."

Yeah but punishing success is never a great idea. If I'd have to give half my wages over 100k to taxes, that gives me a lot less incentive to make over 100k.

"Problem I see is that the side of the able is getting smaller and smaller."

Whole different topic there. Of course I tend to think that a lot of the problems of the middle class are due to stupidity: fancy expensive cars, bigger houses than they need or can afford, completely ignoring the realities of life like the need to budget, etc.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Vt_ahole

USA

Post Number: 91
Registered: Jun-07
paying for health care is a lot easier if you spend less than you earn. really paying for anything is. people b!tch about a lot of problems that they created for themselves... health care wouldnt be as bad if we didnt have a obesity epidemic in this country, especially the lower class because they are the ones eating all the mcD's. send them to kenya for a year... then they'll see what real lower class is like.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 17229
Registered: Jun-06
"Yeah but punishing success is never a great idea. If I'd have to give half my wages over 100k to taxes, that gives me a lot less incentive to make over 100k."


You see alot of taxes that set the benchmark at $200,000 as the threshold of the middle class. I don't make $200,000/year. If I did I would consider myself rich, even in today's world. Sadly with inflation my kids will need to make that to survive.


And punishing success in America is a laugh. We have a vast collection of ppl who have inherited their fortunes or make $20 million a movie, or $100 million sports contracts. Oddly they are the ones cheating the most on their taxes!! Does anyone think Shaq cares how much gas costs per gallon? Or if Paris can even balance a checkbook?

There are so few "rich" American that are in touch and tune to the rest of the world. The balance are there bleeding off us. $50 to take my son to a baseball game? $20 for parking? $5 pretzels??


To me success in life means differently than most.
 

Gold Member
Username: Touche6784

USA

Post Number: 1290
Registered: Nov-04
Umm, I don't know what you are talking about Pual with this "free health car thing at ERs. The hospitals are only responsible to stabilize patients. After that hospitals have the legal right to kick anyone out they want if they are not paying and can deny treatment for non-emergency patients. If some migrant worker cuts of their finger the staff at a hospital is only liable to stop the bleeding. After that is done, they can be kicked out. The only place that I know of where all treatment is free are at teaching hospitals.

Malpractice is a HUGE hurdle to getting the costs of medical care down. One big reason why less people want to be doctors is because of the rising malpractice insurance rates. Less and less doctors are willing to become OB-GYNs at hospitals fearing they will be sued buy a family whos kid they delivered and had a slightly misshaped head. The difference between other insurances and malpractice insurance is the insurance rate increase does not increase prices of services rendered.

The drug companies are in a unique position. The creation of a single drug can drain millions of dollars from a companies pocket and there is still no guarantee that the drug will get FDA approval. Also, with the rampant overuse of antibiotics to fight the smallest and most insignificant of infections, drug companies are forced to create more and more powerful drugs to cope with the increasingly rapid mutations and immunities of infectious diseases. You can't completely blame the drug companies for our own desires to be "cushy".

About costs; you guys forget that the doctors spend loads of cash to go to medical school and what ever fellowships follow. It is easy to have over $200,000 in debt just from med school not including college. Running a practice like a radiology center is very expensive with equipment costing in the several million and they usually need several pieces of equipment. You have the overhead of the facility itself, its not like MRIs and CAT scan machines don't use electricity. And then there are the staff members dedicated to processing and dealing with the insurance companies. They all have their own rules, pricing coverage, forms, etc that requires another group of people to deal with all the various insurance companies.

About universal health care; HELL NO!! That would be the biggest mistake to make concerning our health care system. If you ever talk to doctors that have been exposed to europe's health care system they will tell you that european doctors are a bunch of lazy @sses. They have no drive or desire to treat patients, they get paid regardless as long as they show up for work and not too many people die on their watch. America HAS the best health care in the world, its just not the most affordable. I agree with stephen on his suggestions. Our current health care system is not an insurance system. Insurance is supposed to help spread cost liabilities when they are too large to individually cover. Why not pay for a doctors visit to get your child looked at for an ear infection? Why not limit drug use to emergencies or medically required instead of rushing to the doctor every time you get acid reflux? It is not just the system that is at fault. We are all at fault for driving the system to these points where the only way to push back is with really high prices.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 17231
Registered: Jun-06
"Umm, I don't know what you are talking about Pual with this "free health car thing at ERs. The hospitals are only responsible to stabilize patients. Afterthat hospitals have the legal right to kick anyone out they want if they are not paying and can deny treatment for non-emergency patients. If some migrant worker cuts of their finger the staff at a hospital is only liable to stop the bleeding. After that is done, they can be kicked out. The only place that I know of where all treatment is free are at teaching hospitals."


Well that is my point. I'm a paying health care member, who had a 50% severed thumb, who also was told to wait behind non paying patients with coughs and colds. Where's the reason in priority? And any treatment at all even if to just stop the bleeding is free health care. No it isn't followed up with appointments and specialists but if they save your life it's all the same to me. Try getting a mechanic to quickly stop a leaking radiator or plug a tire for free. Unless he's extremely generous you're gonna pay him something. I don't want to compare human health to automobiles but.....


And malpractice suits are again a fruit of the greedy. Too many juries and judges have the control to force our premiums up with all these bogus lawsuits. I have no answer for that other than maybe letting the public as a whole decide whether or not a plaintiff is worthy of damages or defendant worthy of conviction. It certainly would've changed the outcome of the OJ trial.



^^^Another quagmire in itself.


And I understand ppl's view on universal heath care. The other side is ppl say we have the best health care system yet the we are the poorest in health. Overweight, smoking, drug addicted, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, heart disease, cancer, alcoholic, STD rampant....ect...ect.....



With the best health care though. Too bad more and more ppl are forced to go without it spinning this circus even faster.


Yes they are human choices (mostly) but a good health care program is also one that educates as well as heal.
« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Facebook

Shop Related Deals

Directory

Main Forums

Today's Posts

Forum Help

Follow Us