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Joe Horn; Texas Vigilante Shooting

 

Gold Member
Username: Pitbullguy

The poster formerly kn...

Post Number: 2846
Registered: Oct-06
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/17/national/main3517564.shtml?source=most pop_story


If you don't already know about this case, read up before commenting please. This case has caused an incredible uproar of passionate opinions from all angles of perspective, lets keep this discussion respectful.



So to ME it's very straightforward, but i guess that's how most people feel about it regardless of what side they take. Joe Horn was absolutely WRONG to do what he did, and this type of thing cannot be allowed within the law. To me it comes down to a few important distinctions.

He was not defending himself. If someone wants to legally own a gun for protection, fine, but it should be used only to protect the lives of you and your loved ones.

We CANNOT have people owning guns, thinking it's okay for THEM to make judgement calls and decide who deserves to live and die for committing a crime.

The guy was begged by the dispatcher repeatedly to just stay in his home where he's safe. The guy had no right to try to enforce the law himself. If the burglars were attempting to break into his home to potentially harm or rob him, that would obviously be a different story.

Joe Horn went out of his way to go outside with the intention of killing these men. That is not his judgement to make. He was not protecting himself or anyone else, and it's evident that he didn't really intend to just keep them there for the police or anything, he thought they deserved to die, so he killed them. Again, NOT his decision to make. He even said to the dispatcher repeatedly that he was going to go outside and kill them.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Project6

Post Number: 15156
Registered: Dec-03
Sad story!

The dude is 61 years old! The transcript read like he was having a "not let them get away with it" mentality. He's probably seen too much crime in his time and seeing the helplessness of people around him. So he decided to finally do something about it.

A very difficult dilemma to deal with as there are people on both sides of the spectrum that will have their own arguments for and against such actions.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nyyfan13

15 MAG USA

Post Number: 8670
Registered: Jul-06
Can't blame Joe for what he did. Not saying he was in the right to do what he did though. I got mixed feelings.
 

Gold Member
Username: Shortysetnies

Rock Vegas, NC US

Post Number: 2199
Registered: Mar-06
I wont say what he did was right, but I know it wasnt wrong. Someone was stealing something from someone he knew and he didnt want it to happen. I would almost bet that it wasnt the first time they had stolen something from someone and, to me, thieves are in the top 5 worst groups of people to me. I think he did what he thought was right and I dont have a problem with it
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 14013
Registered: Jun-06
Wow. Intense story. I don't know how large of a town that was but I can drive across my town and back in five minutes. The cops almost always seem to show up seconds late.



I understand both sides of the issue and I personally have no harsh feelings for Horn. Shots in the leg would've been my choice but it sounds like his adrenaline was flowing.

If criminals are presented with an opportunity without chance of recourse then crime would indeed run rampant. If I choose to break in someone's house intelligence tells me I have a chance of getting killed doing it. If I take the risk for some jewelry then it's MY fault.


My neighbor who recently passed away was known throughout my neighborhood as the unofficial town mayor. He would sit on his front porch every day in the summer and by his front window in the winter. He was nosey about everything that went on in his eyesight. He questioned delivery men, kept kids off stranger's property, picked up blowing trash cans off the street, in general he looked after the homes on the block. I never thought twice about going to work in the morning and not locking my doors because he was there. Horn sounds just like him.

Things feel different now he's gone.
 

Gold Member
Username: The_image_dynamic

San Diego

Post Number: 3483
Registered: Dec-06
Two less Mexicans.
 

Gold Member
Username: Pitbullguy

The poster formerly kn...

Post Number: 2848
Registered: Oct-06
I understand everyone's points. Cept Brad who is racist apparently? Or just being silly i dunno.

I think an important point is this, you can't look at the coincidential results of the situation to decide whether his actions were right or wrong. What if the burglars had been 16 year old kids? What if they had no previous criminal records?

I think because the burglars happened to end up having criminal records, people feel like they got what they deserved. I can't say I don't feel the same way, but that isn't the point here!!!

Bottom line, guns should be used for protection, not to enforce your idea of what the law SHOULD be. Sorry but I don't think all people who commit a crime should have to face possible death. How many of you can honestly say you've never done a little something wrong? Stole a candy bar when you were younger? Speeding? Lied to the cops maybe? Smoked some weed? Drove ur car when maybe you had a little too much to drink?

Again, you may feel like in this particular case, the guys deserved what they got, BUT THATS NOT THE POINT. It should be up to the law to decide what punishment is deserved based on the nature of the crime, criminal past etc. The circumstances of the burglars could have been much different. They have been in past cases and will be in future ones.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Bestmankind

Los Angeles, CA

Post Number: 18622
Registered: Oct-05
it seems like horn had his mind set on killing them. it wasn't in self defense. he went out there to kill them.

he should be charged for murder. all they were doing is stealing. i know its not right to steal. i am sure if it was my house i would be angry. but not angry enough to kill the robbers in cold blood.

its obvious horn has a few screw loose in his head.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 14024
Registered: Jun-06
Should the punishment for a crime be harsher for those with a record? That's like getting a few freebies early in your career as a criminal. If you make it easy to start it's harder to stop.




My first speeding ticket didn't have a "first time" discount.




I agree he should've listened to the operator and stayed inside. I would have. The burglars would also have gotten away, again, to steal again tomorrow.






Again I would've taken a leg out and then let the cops follow the trail of blood. With my luck though the SOBs would sue me and take my house.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 14025
Registered: Jun-06
Good debatable thread.
 

Gold Member
Username: Pitbullguy

The poster formerly kn...

Post Number: 2852
Registered: Oct-06
"The burglars would also have gotten away, again, to steal again tomorrow."

Well the police were on their way so that can't be said for sure. Also, it is now being reported that a detective in an unmarked unit was the first to arrive on the scene, to witness the shooting just as he pulled up, which makes it look like no they would NOT have gotten away. However, i'll use my own point against myself here, whether or not they would've been caught successfully is all coincidential, irrelevant talk that would only apply to this one specific case whereas i'm more concerned about the big picture.


"Should the punishment for a crime be harsher for those with a record? That's like getting a few freebies early in your career as a criminal. If you make it easy to start it's harder to stop. "

That's a tricky one. IMO there needs to be a balance between not letting people off easy just because it's their 1st offense, and punishing people harshly for having proven they aren't learning from their mistakes. I mean if a kid with no record gets caught stealing a DVD, does he deserve to be punished the same as the kid who has a dozen prior thefts?
 

Gold Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 1141
Registered: Apr-06
I certainly can't damn Mr. Horn for attempting to stop two burglars with a shotgun; generally speaking, citizens have a legal right to act to stop a crime. In this case, the only realistic way to do so was with an armed response. It would seem that Texas law reflects this according to the article: "Under Texas law, people may use deadly force to protect their own property or to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night."

However, the question for me is in regards to the confrontation. The article just mentions: "On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being cocked and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone. "Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being cocked and fired again, and then again." Depending on what happened in the confrontation, he could be a hero or a murderer.

Shouldn't be that hard to determine either way though: if they were on his property when he shot them, there should be some proof of that; moreover, that would be proof that the burglars were a bit too aggressive for their own good towards someone holding a shotgun.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawaiian_time

Kanaka freak...

Post Number: 1828
Registered: Apr-06
I absolutely agree with Paul. When you do a burglary, you need to understand that there's a risk involved. Because Burglars know there's a risk, a lot of them choose to arm themselves. And that's another point too. You also have to assume that a Burglar is armed. If a Burglar has a weapon, he's a threat to everyone, present and future.

It's a tough call. I would've probably shot them with my video camera and not my shotgun. But then who knows, I could be thinking of neighborhood kids running into them by accident and having a chance of being shot by them.
 

Gold Member
Username: Bnd_rulez

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 1568
Registered: Mar-05
Got what they deserved. I will drink a beer to Mr. Horn tonight.

Over 5 minutes for police to respond? Wow.

Less crime when there are more repocussions.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 14041
Registered: Jun-06
I try and raise my kids in that same fashion. I have to be hard on them so the important lessons are sunk in from day one. Sometimes I feel bad because it throws guilt on me when I punish/yell at them. You can't grow up soft/spoiled in todays world.......
 

Gold Member
Username: Denali_on_22s

The kids love my rhyme...

Post Number: 4338
Registered: Feb-06
i'm glad he f*cking plugged them. They deserve it. Those guys were probably illegals and convictred felons? How are you going to say they deserve to get away with robbing a house? Do you know how many robberies go unsolved? Do you think Joe Horn could have given a good enough description to find those sacks of sh!t? the answer is no and it would be yet another case of scumbags getting away with breaking the law. Horn abided by the law. Case closed.
 

Gold Member
Username: Shortysetnies

Rock Vegas, NC US

Post Number: 2209
Registered: Mar-06
hes right. even if this woulda been their first time EVER breaking and entering, if they wouldve gotten away with it, 9 times outta 10 they will think "well d/\mn, that was an easy 300 bucks, lets do it again." its an on going cycle and most people dont decide to quit for no reason. Maybe this will make more people think around that area.
 

Gold Member
Username: Pitbullguy

The poster formerly kn...

Post Number: 2856
Registered: Oct-06
Just to clarify, are some of you saying that if it were a 16 year old kid with no previous record, you think he deserves to be shot and killed for the crime?
 

Gold Member
Username: Livin_loud

COD4 Addict

Post Number: 2240
Registered: Jan-06
sh!t, if you were caught stealing back in the day, goodbye hand. laws are too easy on people nowadays, and too harsh for other reasons. its unbelievable that for something the founding fathers of the country saw as ok now gets you a felony (i'm talking about cokaine, of course). i'm not saying cokaine is an acceptable substance, rather the views and punishments on things nowadays are f*cked.

unfortunately, odds are if a 16 year old were to commit such a crime, he would do it again. people don't change, they are who they are. some are just smart enough to know better.
 

Gold Member
Username: Shortysetnies

Rock Vegas, NC US

Post Number: 2212
Registered: Mar-06
i think it would be nice that if a 16 year old thought about breaking in somewhere, he would decide against it b/c he knew he may get shot. My friend lives downtown and it seems that it is mostly people under 23 that are breakin and entering, stealing cars and getting in gang fights. I would honestly feel the same way if it were a 16 year old and it was his first offence.

but if what you are saying is right (peoples punishment should be less if it their first offence), what would you do if you owned a store and you caught someone stealing $500 bucks from you red handed and it was their first tme? now what if it was the fifth time? I sure as he11 wouldnt be easy on him because it was the first time.

rules werent made so people can say, "OK, I can do this 3 times before I will really get in trouble." I think the first time is just as bad as the ninth time.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Chaunb3400

Huntsville, Alabama U.S.

Post Number: 13912
Registered: Jul-05
Under Texas law, people may use deadly force to protect their own property or to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night.

^^^Its the law...whether you like it or not...he did nothing wrong according to the law..


I dont always agree with the law..but we have to live by it or get locked up or killed
 

Platinum Member
Username: Wingmanalive

A pic is worth 1000 posts!!

Post Number: 14092
Registered: Jun-06
"Just to clarify, are some of you saying that if it were a 16 year old kid with no previous record, you think he deserves to be shot and killed for the crime?"


No I don't. But you also can't expect even an officer to inquire about someone's criminal history before pulling the trigger which in this case according to the law is legal. Can you picture this:

Police officer/homeowner: "Stop! Is this your first offense??!!"

Burglar: "No."



BAAMM!!!




What's a real shame are the kids/anybody who die in drive by shootings and botched burglaries from stray bullets.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jtown

Team RD, Texas

Post Number: 2293
Registered: Mar-07
yeah he shouldnt of gone outside, but if the suspect(s) died in his yard, there's almost nothing anyone can do about it. in texas you may use deadly force as Chauncey said, deadly meaning, if you shoot their leg, they can sue you. Same thing with a dog, if your dog bites whomever is attacking you or your property, the suspect will sue. If you shoot someone in Texas, in self defense of course, you almost have to make sure that they die, and in your yard at that. But then again, guns are made to kill and if you point one at someone that's the only reason why you should/would do it.

I don't agree that he should have tried to hold them at gunpoint, and attempted to avoid killing them. But, as said before, when you burglarize, you take a stupid risk.....
 

Gold Member
Username: Bnd_rulez

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 1580
Registered: Mar-05
Another sucka dead L.A. Times from page.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Project6

Post Number: 15172
Registered: Dec-03
Way too many shootings nowadays!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jtown

Team RD, Texas

Post Number: 2310
Registered: Mar-07
weren't there are few school shootings recently, stuff like that really really gets me down. makes me want to home school when I have children....:-(
 

Platinum Member
Username: Project6

Post Number: 15196
Registered: Dec-03
Yup, school shootings are becoming common place.
 

Gold Member
Username: Pitbullguy

The poster formerly kn...

Post Number: 2862
Registered: Oct-06
You're probably thinking of Northern Illinois University Thieves :-( I know some people who go to NIU and other nearby schools, really fu<ked up situation. 5 killed and like a dozen or so more injured.
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